Hello everybody,

I thought there would be no risks on putting my own logo, name initials, when refacing a mouthpiece but, somebody told me I should find out for certain.

I am not talking about when one buys blanks and makes a new mouthpiece but, when refacing commercial mouthpieces like Vandoren and the like. Even when refacing vintage ones I guess.

Do you know anything on the matter?. Thank you in advance everybody :)

Ivan 

there’s no issue whatsoever


> On Dec 17, 2015, at 3:49 PM, nfn12517@... [MouthpieceWork] <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello everybody,
> 
> I thought there would be no risks on putting my own logo, name initials, when refacing a mouthpiece but, somebody told me I should find out for certain.
> 
> I am not talking about when one buys blanks and makes a new mouthpiece but, when refacing commercial mouthpieces like Vandoren and the like. Even when refacing vintage ones I guess.
> 
> Do you know anything on the matter?. Thank you in advance everybody :)
> 
> Ivan 
> 
> 

Thank you for.your quick response Steve. The person telling me is a Vandoren artist and seems to think I cannot put my logo on new recently bought Vandoren mouthpieces that I reface. I tell him, I bought them, they are mine and I should be able to do anything to them, even sell them as used items, right?. Everybody does it, I just wanted to find out though, trying to be safe.

There a several re-facers doing exactly what you propose. Kurtzweil 
comes to mind. It works for them.
Tony F.

On 12/17/2015 2:07 PM, nfn12517@... [MouthpieceWork] wrote:
>
> Thank you for.your quick response Steve. The person telling me is a 
> Vandoren artist and seems to think I cannot put my logo on new 
> recently bought Vandoren mouthpieces that I reface. I tell him, I 
> bought them, they are mine and I should be able to do anything to 
> them, even sell them as used items, right?. Everybody does it, I just 
> wanted to find out though, trying to be safe.
>
> 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

There may be no legal issue - I will let the lawyers in the group comment on that, but there is in my view an issue of truth.  When you put your logo on a mouthpiece which is a finished and complete offering - such as any mouthpiece by Vandoren, then you are telling the world that the mouthpiece in question isn't a Vandoren, but something of your own creation.  That seems misleading to me.
And there is my issue.  When you reface a Vandoren, you are in fact changing the mouthpiece, but it is still a Vandoren in the majority of its parts.  It is a Vandoren in terms of material, chamber design, window shape, bore design, etc.  Indeed Vandoren isn't creating anything unique as far as I know - they don't have a patent for example, but Vandoren is after all the MAKER of the mouthpiece, not the guy who aftermarket refaces it.
I personally do not put my logo on any mouthpiece I reface.  I only put my logo on mouthpiece blanks which I state clearly are made from Zinner blanks, AND I only put my logo on mouthpieces which I make from scratch - using rod rubber which I make, and using my own designs and CNC production process. 
Here is an interesting scenario - and it comes from my firsthand experience...A mouthpiece which had the logo SELMER on it, which Ann Arbor Kaspar poorly buffed off, which Frank L Kaspar overlayed his logo and refaced and modified the bore, which had been later refaced by someone in OH, who in turn etched his logo on the side  which then came to me for refacing... what is it?  I say it is an all to common story of ego getting in the way of the truth.  
The mouthpiece world is confusing indeed.  Lets create unique works of art which are identified by the original makers, and lets celebrate those items for what they were, lets learn from them and move on to make our own visions of the ideal.  Lets not deface the true creations of the masters from yesteryear, rather lets celebrate what they accomplished and take the harder road of creating something from the ground up.  If we must reface a mouthpiece which has grown tired, perhaps we can respect its origin and leave our logos free of the process.
Brad Behnwww.clarinetmouthpiece.com


To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 15:50:39 -0600
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Legal issues when stamping or engraving a mouthpiece














 

 



  


    
      
      
      there’s no issue whatsoever


On Dec 17, 2015, at 3:49 PM, nfn12517@... [MouthpieceWork] <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:Hello everybody,

I thought there would be no risks on putting my own logo, name initials, when refacing a mouthpiece but, somebody told me I should find out for certain.

I am not talking about when one buys blanks and makes a new mouthpiece but, when refacing commercial mouthpieces like Vandoren and the like. Even when refacing vintage ones I guess.

Do you know anything on the matter?. Thank you in advance everybody :)

Ivan 



    
     

    
    






   		 	   		  

I disagree…..if you reface or alter, you should disclose the alteration through adding some identifying mark or logo….a refaced Vandoren is no longer “just” a Vandoren


> On Dec 17, 2015, at 5:21 PM, Brad Behn bradbehn@... [MouthpieceWork] <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> There may be no legal issue - I will let the lawyers in the group comment on that, but there is in my view an issue of truth.  When you put your logo on a mouthpiece which is a finished and complete offering - such as any mouthpiece by Vandoren, then you are telling the world that the mouthpiece in question isn't a Vandoren, but something of your own creation.  That seems misleading to me.
> 
> And there is my issue.  When you reface a Vandoren, you are in fact changing the mouthpiece, but it is still a Vandoren in the majority of its parts.  It is a Vandoren in terms of material, chamber design, window shape, bore design, etc.  Indeed Vandoren isn't creating anything unique as far as I know - they don't have a patent for example, but Vandoren is after all the MAKER of the mouthpiece, not the guy who aftermarket refaces it.
> 
> I personally do not put my logo on any mouthpiece I reface.  I only put my logo on mouthpiece blanks which I state clearly are made from Zinner blanks, AND I only put my logo on mouthpieces which I make from scratch - using rod rubber which I make, and using my own designs and CNC production process. 
> 
> Here is an interesting scenario - and it comes from my firsthand experience...A mouthpiece which had the logo SELMER on it, which Ann Arbor Kaspar poorly buffed off, which Frank L Kaspar overlayed his logo and refaced and modified the bore, which had been later refaced by someone in OH, who in turn etched his logo on the side  which then came to me for refacing... what is it?  I say it is an all to common story of ego getting in the way of the truth.  
> 
> The mouthpiece world is confusing indeed.  Lets create unique works of art which are identified by the original makers, and lets celebrate those items for what they were, lets learn from them and move on to make our own visions of the ideal.  Lets not deface the true creations of the masters from yesteryear, rather lets celebrate what they accomplished and take the harder road of creating something from the ground up.  If we must reface a mouthpiece which has grown tired, perhaps we can respect its origin and leave our logos free of the process.
> 
> Brad Behn
> www.clarinetmouthpiece.com <http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com/>
> 
> 
> 
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com <mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
> From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com <mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 15:50:39 -0600
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Legal issues when stamping or engraving a mouthpiece
> 
>  
> there’s no issue whatsoever
> 
> 
> On Dec 17, 2015, at 3:49 PM, nfn12517@hotmail.com <mailto:nfn12517@...> [MouthpieceWork] <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com <mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
> 
> Hello everybody,
> 
> I thought there would be no risks on putting my own logo, name initials, when refacing a mouthpiece but, somebody told me I should find out for certain.
> 
> I am not talking about when one buys blanks and makes a new mouthpiece but, when refacing commercial mouthpieces like Vandoren and the like. Even when refacing vintage ones I guess.
> 
> Do you know anything on the matter?. Thank you in advance everybody :)
> 
> Ivan 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

But once you start refacing - the door is open for an infinitum of possible alterations, subtle perhaps, but too numerous and complex to be able to clearly indicate on a mouthpiece's body.  Sure a facing schedule could be indicated by a length and tip number, but that isn't sufficient information to show what truly has been altered.  And then what happens when two or three different people reface a mouthpiece - should each of them put their logo on the Vandoren in question?  I prefer not to go down that path.  
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 17:27:56 -0600
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Legal issues when stamping or engraving a mouthpiece














 

 



  


    
      
      
      I disagree…..if you reface or alter, you should disclose the alteration through adding some identifying mark or logo….a refaced Vandoren is no longer “just” a Vandoren


On Dec 17, 2015, at 5:21 PM, Brad Behn bradbehn@... [MouthpieceWork] <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:There may be no legal issue - I will let the lawyers in the group comment on that, but there is in my view an issue of truth.  When you put your logo on a mouthpiece which is a finished and complete offering - such as any mouthpiece by Vandoren, then you are telling the world that the mouthpiece in question isn't a Vandoren, but something of your own creation.  That seems misleading to me.
And there is my issue.  When you reface a Vandoren, you are in fact changing the mouthpiece, but it is still a Vandoren in the majority of its parts.  It is a Vandoren in terms of material, chamber design, window shape, bore design, etc.  Indeed Vandoren isn't creating anything unique as far as I know - they don't have a patent for example, but Vandoren is after all the MAKER of the mouthpiece, not the guy who aftermarket refaces it.
I personally do not put my logo on any mouthpiece I reface.  I only put my logo on mouthpiece blanks which I state clearly are made from Zinner blanks, AND I only put my logo on mouthpieces which I make from scratch - using rod rubber which I make, and using my own designs and CNC production process. 
Here is an interesting scenario - and it comes from my firsthand experience...A mouthpiece which had the logo SELMER on it, which Ann Arbor Kaspar poorly buffed off, which Frank L Kaspar overlayed his logo and refaced and modified the bore, which had been later refaced by someone in OH, who in turn etched his logo on the side  which then came to me for refacing... what is it?  I say it is an all to common story of ego getting in the way of the truth.  
The mouthpiece world is confusing indeed.  Lets create unique works of art which are identified by the original makers, and lets celebrate those items for what they were, lets learn from them and move on to make our own visions of the ideal.  Lets not deface the true creations of the masters from yesteryear, rather lets celebrate what they accomplished and take the harder road of creating something from the ground up.  If we must reface a mouthpiece which has grown tired, perhaps we can respect its origin and leave our logos free of the process.
Brad Behnwww.clarinetmouthpiece.com


To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 15:50:39 -0600
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Legal issues when stamping or engraving a mouthpiece

 there’s no issue whatsoever


On Dec 17, 2015, at 3:49 PM, nfn12517@... [MouthpieceWork] <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:Hello everybody,

I thought there would be no risks on putting my own logo, name initials, when refacing a mouthpiece but, somebody told me I should find out for certain.

I am not talking about when one buys blanks and makes a new mouthpiece but, when refacing commercial mouthpieces like Vandoren and the like. Even when refacing vintage ones I guess.

Do you know anything on the matter?. Thank you in advance everybody :)

Ivan 





    
     

    
    






   		 	   		  

I think you are treating mass produced mouthpieces like they are “museum quality”…….


> On Dec 17, 2015, at 5:34 PM, Brad Behn bradbehn@hotmail.com [MouthpieceWork] <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> But once you start refacing - the door is open for an infinitum of possible alterations, subtle perhaps, but too numerous and complex to be able to clearly indicate on a mouthpiece's body.  Sure a facing schedule could be indicated by a length and tip number, but that isn't sufficient information to show what truly has been altered.  And then what happens when two or three different people reface a mouthpiece - should each of them put their logo on the Vandoren in question?  I prefer not to go down that path.  
> 
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com <mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
> From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com <mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 17:27:56 -0600
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Legal issues when stamping or engraving a mouthpiece
> 
>  
> I disagree…..if you reface or alter, you should disclose the alteration through adding some identifying mark or logo….a refaced Vandoren is no longer “just” a Vandoren
> 
> 
> On Dec 17, 2015, at 5:21 PM, Brad Behn bradbehn@... <mailto:bradbehn@...> [MouthpieceWork] <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com <mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
> There may be no legal issue - I will let the lawyers in the group comment on that, but there is in my view an issue of truth.  When you put your logo on a mouthpiece which is a finished and complete offering - such as any mouthpiece by Vandoren, then you are telling the world that the mouthpiece in question isn't a Vandoren, but something of your own creation.  That seems misleading to me.
> 
> And there is my issue.  When you reface a Vandoren, you are in fact changing the mouthpiece, but it is still a Vandoren in the majority of its parts.  It is a Vandoren in terms of material, chamber design, window shape, bore design, etc.  Indeed Vandoren isn't creating anything unique as far as I know - they don't have a patent for example, but Vandoren is after all the MAKER of the mouthpiece, not the guy who aftermarket refaces it.
> 
> I personally do not put my logo on any mouthpiece I reface.  I only put my logo on mouthpiece blanks which I state clearly are made from Zinner blanks, AND I only put my logo on mouthpieces which I make from scratch - using rod rubber which I make, and using my own designs and CNC production process. 
> 
> Here is an interesting scenario - and it comes from my firsthand experience...A mouthpiece which had the logo SELMER on it, which Ann Arbor Kaspar poorly buffed off, which Frank L Kaspar overlayed his logo and refaced and modified the bore, which had been later refaced by someone in OH, who in turn etched his logo on the side  which then came to me for refacing... what is it?  I say it is an all to common story of ego getting in the way of the truth.  
> 
> The mouthpiece world is confusing indeed.  Lets create unique works of art which are identified by the original makers, and lets celebrate those items for what they were, lets learn from them and move on to make our own visions of the ideal.  Lets not deface the true creations of the masters from yesteryear, rather lets celebrate what they accomplished and take the harder road of creating something from the ground up.  If we must reface a mouthpiece which has grown tired, perhaps we can respect its origin and leave our logos free of the process.
> 
> Brad Behn
> www.clarinetmouthpiece.com <http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com/>
> 
> 
> 
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com <mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
> From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com <mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 15:50:39 -0600
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Legal issues when stamping or engraving a mouthpiece
> 
>  
> there’s no issue whatsoever
> 
> 
> On Dec 17, 2015, at 3:49 PM, nfn12517@... <mailto:nfn12517@...> [MouthpieceWork] <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com <mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
> 
> Hello everybody,
> 
> I thought there would be no risks on putting my own logo, name initials, when refacing a mouthpiece but, somebody told me I should find out for certain.
> 
> I am not talking about when one buys blanks and makes a new mouthpiece but, when refacing commercial mouthpieces like Vandoren and the like. Even when refacing vintage ones I guess.
> 
> Do you know anything on the matter?. Thank you in advance everybody :)
> 
> Ivan 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Hi Behn, this is Ivan Marin, we met many years ago when I played with the Naples Phil down in Florida. Now I am back in my country, Spain, where I play with the Galicia Symphony Orchestra. I started doing mouthpiece refacing work a few months ago and I am going strong :) You refaced some of my mouthpieces back when we met... 

 Let me comment on what you and Steve said. I am with Steve in that Vandoren is no longer a Vandoren after working on it. I think making a new product is wonderful and I am myself working on that but, I do like reviving a mouthpiece, bringing it to today's standard of playing. Most of my costumer's reviews are along the lines "thank you for working on such and such mouthpieces, ones which were in a drawer and I would have never played again". To me this "RECYCLING" is wonderful and we should keep on doing it. I am also with Steve in that there should be a sign that someone worked on a mouthpiece if they indeed did work on it. For one thing I would not like to buy a modified Vandoren without knowing about it. I will not be offended in the future if people who buy my own mouthpiece has someone else work on it and they place a logo. It is the new owner's mouthpiece and they can "allow" refacers to do whatever they want. 
 

 I guess one could end up with a mouthpiece which has been reworked by several people with several logos?. True... for me what counts is the original and the last maker so, the rest could even be taken out hahaha. Because of all this I myself try to make a smallish logo. 
 

 I don't think it is an ego problem. I think it is just leaving a sign of having worked on it. It is not wanting to take credit for the whole mouthpiece. It is just taking credit for the changes done to it, whether it is something small or a full reface job, table, opening, rails, baffle, side walls, etc. it doesn't matter what we have done, it is the end result which counts. 
 

 I actually think it is BRAVE to put a logo, because for positive or negative you are saying "I have something to do with how this plays"... too bad when people damage the facing after having worked on a mouthpiece hahaha
 

 I worked on a Charles Bay which had many writings on it. The customer was happy with my suggestion... removing the writing about the opening etc. and just leaving the wording Charles Bay plus my logo. Lastly I would like to mention that Vandoren doesn't display info about their measurements that I know, just their tip opening on their catalogues and such, right?. Again, I see no point in us doing so. A simple logo can be a positive thing for everybody at the end.
 

 Your case with the Selmer Kaspar mouthpiece seems a bit specific since MOST people don't want a mouthpiece to be refaced more than 3 times at the most. 
 

 Anyway, thank you everybody for sharing on the subject.

Who said anything about REMOVING the original markings?  The logical thing to do is to leave the Vandoren logo alone and simply add your own.  A prospective buyer will know EXACTLY what they are getting. 

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 17, 2015, at 5:21 PM, Brad Behn bradbehn@... [MouthpieceWork] <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> There may be no legal issue - I will let the lawyers in the group comment on that, but there is in my view an issue of truth.  When you put your logo on a mouthpiece which is a finished and complete offering - such as any mouthpiece by Vandoren, then you are telling the world that the mouthpiece in question isn't a Vandoren, but something of your own creation.  That seems misleading to me.
> 
> And there is my issue.  When you reface a Vandoren, you are in fact changing the mouthpiece, but it is still a Vandoren in the majority of its parts.  It is a Vandoren in terms of material, chamber design, window shape, bore design, etc.  Indeed Vandoren isn't creating anything unique as far as I know - they don't have a patent for example, but Vandoren is after all the MAKER of the mouthpiece, not the guy who aftermarket refaces it.
> 
> I personally do not put my logo on any mouthpiece I reface.  I only put my logo on mouthpiece blanks which I state clearly are made from Zinner blanks, AND I only put my logo on mouthpieces which I make from scratch - using rod rubber which I make, and using my own designs and CNC production process. 
> 
> Here is an interesting scenario - and it comes from my firsthand experience...A mouthpiece which had the logo SELMER on it, which Ann Arbor Kaspar poorly buffed off, which Frank L Kaspar overlayed his logo and refaced and modified the bore, which had been later refaced by someone in OH, who in turn etched his logo on the side  which then came to me for refacing... what is it?  I say it is an all to common story of ego getting in the way of the truth.  
> 
> The mouthpiece world is confusing indeed.  Lets create unique works of art which are identified by the original makers, and lets celebrate those items for what they were, lets learn from them and move on to make our own visions of the ideal.  Lets not deface the true creations of the masters from yesteryear, rather lets celebrate what they accomplished and take the harder road of creating something from the ground up.  If we must reface a mouthpiece which has grown tired, perhaps we can respect its origin and leave our logos free of the process.
> 
> Brad Behn
> www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
> 
> 
> 
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 15:50:39 -0600
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Legal issues when stamping or engraving a mouthpiece
> 
> there’s no issue whatsoever
> 
> 
> On Dec 17, 2015, at 3:49 PM, nfn12517@... [MouthpieceWork] <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello everybody,
> 
> I thought there would be no risks on putting my own logo, name initials, when refacing a mouthpiece but, somebody told me I should find out for certain.
> 
> I am not talking about when one buys blanks and makes a new mouthpiece but, when refacing commercial mouthpieces like Vandoren and the like. Even when refacing vintage ones I guess.
> 
> Do you know anything on the matter?. Thank you in advance everybody :)
> 
> Ivan 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

I'm with Steve on this.

"Kid, you need a Link.  And not just any Link... you need a Florida Link like mine.  And not just any Florida Link, you need to try about 150 of them to make sure you get a good one.  And make sure you get one made on a Thursday.  Those are the best.  

"Then send it to Joe Shultz in Idaho.  Tell him you want a big baffle like he put in mine, and reface it to a number 9.

"That's the best, that's what you need to be a rock star.  That's what all the pros play.  

"But yeah, Links are the best."


Paul

A trademark placed on an item (such as a mouthpiece) is an indication of the source of the vendor of the item. 

 So don;t deface or remove that logo.
 

 Now you could add another logo to the item if you change the item in some way, and then sell the item with two logos.
 

 For instance, when you buy a laptop computer, the computer will show several logos -- one logo for Mircosoft (they contributed the operating software), one logo for the maker of the laptop (such as, HP), and another logo for the processor (such as, INTEL), etc.  This is all normal, and the logos indicate the source of the parts that make up the final product that is sold to the customer. The customer can relay on the fact that the logos give him confidence in what he has bought.
 

 So, getting back to your mouthpiece, go ahead and buy the Vandoren MP, do not deface the logo, resurface the MP and put on your own logo, and resell the modified MP. This is fair and in no way damages the Vandoren brand name. However, if you want to be sure, perhaps consider asking Vandoeern if they agree to this set up, and if they do then now you have absolute assurance that Vandorren will not get upset with you at a later time (since they gave you their blessing) -- hey they may even list you on their web pages as a value added reseller! 
 

 joe.

Apparently, what happened with the Smith & Wesson fiasco was this.

Brownells is a vendor in various tools and accessories for gunsmithing, much the same as Ferree's 
Tools or Allied in the music industry.

Brownell's had a project gun based on the S&W M&P (military & police) pistol, displaying one at the 
SHOT Show customized with various items from Brownell's.  A sort of, "You can do this to your pistol."  

Apparently S&W lawyers thought they were selling or marketing this pistol already decked out like this.  

It is not illegal, or in any way a copyright or patent problem to modify a pistol you own any more than 
putting mag wheels or other hot rod items on your car that you already own.  Similarly, it should not be 
a problem for a person such as myself, or Mojo, or whoever to repair, or otherwise modify a mouthpiece 
owned by a customer.

Where this might be an issue would be if I were to buy a gross of Meyer mouthpieces, for example, do 
various modifications, and whether stamping my logo on it or not, sell it as a "modified Meyer".  Zinner 
sells blanks which other mouthpiece makers buy and make into mouthpieces.  This happens.

So, the exact issues, I don't know.  I do know of examples of similar things done in other fields.

And this is a good topic for discussion here.

Paul C.

This exact issue just came up in the gun industry regarding Smith & Wesson, and other 
vendors selling accessories for one of the S&W pistols.  S&W issued a "cease & desist" 
letter.

http://www.alloutdoor.com/2015/12/23/sw-slams-brownells-then-backtracks/ http://www.alloutdoor.com/2015/12/23/sw-slams-brownells-then-backtracks/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content 15-12-26&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter

Then they rescinded the letter.

But it is a legal issue. 

So the question is, just how does this affect us?  I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.

Paul C.