Hi to all,  In a process of planning best way fix a convex table on a original Otto Link Tone Master NY tenor peace ,
 that got very worned out tip and a table during the years of playing.
 the facing length is variable between 26-28mm due to convexity.
 Opening is also variable between 0,107"- 0,108"
 Please see an attached photo of the table after a very light pass on a 1200 grit sand paper, 
 hopefully you can see the shape of convexity in question.
 The goal is not to alter how the peace plays but to restore its table and possibly a tip rail without altering the facing.
 

 How do you guys fix this type of convex tables without shortening the facing length ,  preserving  a unique playing vintage facing? 
 

 best regards, 
 Dimitri
 

 

In general, when you flatten the table it will mess up the facing and you will need to reconstruct it.

even in the case of a convex table? I've flattened concave tables that shortened the facing and closed the tip slightly, than rebuilt 
 the curve and the tip and baffle.
 

 But I've never yet found a way to remove slight convexities yet ,
 that is why I wonder how you guys approach this?
 

 Just a thought : maybe marking the table with a pencil or a marker and sanding 
 Only the convex spot with a very small cut out piece of sand paper till they are removed?

 Thanks for reply Keith.
 Yes, that is what I thought already, 
 But was trying to figure out on a way to sand down only
 the convex spots without touching the opening stamp on the table.
 

 Just a thought:
 Maybe I should just carefully sand Only  those high spots in the middle of the table with a small
 piece of sand paper holding the mouthpiece with the table up rather than passing it on a paper the 
 traditional  way - if it works it should not shorten the facing and not affect the curve much?
 

---In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 In general, when you flatten the table it will mess up the facing and you will need to reconstruct it.

You can try to just sand the high spot on the table.  But you will not be able to make a flat table unless you stroke the entire table across a flat sandpaper surface to finish the job.  

Before I developed my current technique, I would sometimes resort to sanding the high spot until it became a low spot.  Then the mouthpiece would not rock on the sandpaper when trying to flatten the table.  

The problem I find with flattening a convex table is the heel tends to dig into the sandpaper making the table more convex.  You can combat this by lifting the heel some as you draw the mouthpiece across the sandpaper.  It you do it right, just the high spot digs into the sandpaper until the table is flat.  But it is rare to pull this off without having to reconstruct the facing curve.

I demonstrate this in several of my videos on YouTube.  I also have a PowerPoint presentation on my web site where I illustrate the forces on the mouthpiece while trying to flatten the table.

> On Nov 17, 2015, at 6:55 AM, jazzroom@... [MouthpieceWork] <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> even in the case of a convex table?
> 
> I've flattened concave tables that shortened the facing and closed the tip slightly, than rebuilt 
> the curve and the tip and baffle.
> 
> But I've never yet found a way to remove slight convexities yet ,
> that is why I wonder how you guys approach this?
> 
> Just a thought : maybe marking the table with a pencil or a marker and sanding 
> Only the convex spot with a very small cut out piece of sand paper till they are removed?
> 

If the goal is to not alter how it plays then leave it alone. Seriously. The only reason to work on a piece is to improve it. 

 There is no way to fix a concavity without changing the facing:
The facing curve is defined in relation to a plane -- the table. With a convexity, there is no plane so there's no way to measure what the facing even is. So right now the facing is really a range of facings depending on where you put your thumb when you measure it or where and how tight you put what ligature when you play it. Schrodinger's facing curve if you will. First thing you need to do is establish a plane. 
 

 Problem with sanding a "high spot" -- high in relation to what? If the table curves it's all a high spot. You need to choose where the flat is going to be tangent to to start with and just sand/lap the table flat, then make the facing good.
 

 Look, if the convexity is very slight, a few passes on 600 or so grit will sort it out and you'll just need to blend the back end of the facing in a touch. Won't alter the facing much.
 

 That said, if I see this, I count on having to reconstruct the whole thing -- table, facing, tip, baffle-- to make a good job of it.

It seems that the solution would be to add material to the offending low spots around the start of the window and then blend it in.  This would leave the good low spot in the center of the table and not change the facing.  

Sent from my iPhone

Who wants to take this one?  ;)

> On Nov 18, 2015, at 5:25 AM, john price john_w_price33@... [MouthpieceWork] <MouthpieceWork@...m> wrote:
> 
> It seems that the solution would be to add material to the offending low spots around the start of the window and then blend it in. This would leave the good low spot in the center of the table and not change the facing. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 

Table work requires a nuanced technique which comes from a great deal of practice.  The use of a straight edge to visually check your work is an important tool which I use countless times daily. Please consider the type and grit of sandpaper used in the process - as the weight or thickness of the paper can actually distort your desired results.  Too thick and too soft paper = rounded and not flat surfaces.  Additionally if you use sandpaper which is of a grit which is too high, you end up skidding rather than cutting.  Skidding = rounded and not flat surfaces.
Brad Behn
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 08:43:27 -0500
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Fixing a Convex Table














 

 



  


    
      
      
      

Who wants to take this one?  ;)
On Nov 18, 2015, at 5:25 AM, john price john_w_price33@... [MouthpieceWork] <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:














 

 



    
      
      
      It seems that the solution would be to add material to the offending low spots around the start of the window and then blend it in.  This would leave the good low spot in the center of the table and not change the facing.  



Sent from my iPhone


    
     

    










    
     

    
    






   		 	   		  

Thanks alot for your replies , alot of ideas and food for thought. 
I am not touching this MPC any further ,
yet...While still figuring out the best restauration scenario. 
Maybe i should just clean up the tio rail a bit as its very thick and affects articulation? 

My response was well thought out.  No one has given a solution because there isn't a solution that involves removing material from that mouthpiece.    How to add material is another matter.   

Sent from my iPhone

I have not actually tried adding material (like epoxy) to a table in an effort to make it flat.  I think there would be problems in getting it flat that are the same, if not worse, than just making the metal flat.  

> On Nov 19, 2015, at 8:28 AM, john price john_w_price33@... [MouthpieceWork] <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> My response was well thought out. No one has given a solution because there isn't a solution that involves removing material from that mouthpiece. How to add material is another matter. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 

 

Yes, a thick tip rail is not going to help mpc response! Thinning it
will improve things. This involves removing material from just behind
the tip rail (although an alternative might be to remove material from
the tip, slightly shortening the mouthpiece.) I've been reluctant to try
the latter method except when after refacing the tip is too sharp, as it
shortens the baffle. Although maybe that's an adjustment that's useful
in some cases, I can't say. 

It's been mentioned on this group many
times (and is consistent with my own experience as well) that the
portion of the baffle JUST BEHIND THE TIP RAIL is an important and
sensitive adjustment - presumably because this location sets initial
conditions for airflow in the mouthpiece. 

On a bright-sounding
mouthpieces with a high flat baffle that extends almost straight to the
tip rail, this creates an even brighter sound in the upper register. It
appears that the closer the baffle is to the tip of the reed, the
brighter the sound. I have an inexpensive Chinese metal mpc with a
rather high straight baffle I've been adjusting. Too thin sounding for
me, but removing some material behind the tip rail is darkening it a
bit. Another example of this effect is seen when moving a baffle insert
towards the tip of a mpc - the sound gets brighter (or "thinner", i.e.
not enough beefy lower sound spectrum). Matter of taste, and also what
reeds one uses. I like Hahn or Hartmann, which are already pretty
bright. 

But if there's too much material just behind the tip rail, a
mouthpiece may feel less free blowing. Some tiny scraping may yield
surprising benefits. 

On darker mouthpieces with a low baffle, a small
convexity behind the tip rail may brighten the sound - known as a
"rollover baffle". I haven't experimented much with this, as it's a bit
more touchy to add material here, except in a permanent way. It seems
that there is a trade-off here between how free-blowing the mpc feels
and getting a bit more edge. 

There's a nice discussion here:
http://theowanne.com/knowledge/baffle-shapes 

Barry Levine 

On
2015-11-19 7:06 am, jazzroom@... [MouthpieceWork] wrote: 

>
(snip) 
> Maybe i should just clean up the tip rail a bit as it's very
thick and affects articulation?

 

So much more work it's insane. I could make a new one from scratch in less time. 

 If yo add any kind of epoxy, then at its thinnest point it'll break off before too long (probably before you're done facing it) and leave you a step, so you'll have to start over. 
 
The only possible material to add is soft solder. Build it up, file it down, sand it flat.
 

 This will take the piece even farther from its original design than flattening the table the normal way would. So what's the point?
 

 

dshapko -- the extra long facing also affects articulation.  

 IMO if there's a problem with how it plays, just fix the thing. If you think you like the facing, record it a few times and try to reproduce what works about it. No sense in fixing just this or just that -- just make the piece right. It may not change enough to worry about if the convexity isn't very much.