here’s a comparative reed strength chart






> On Jun 17, 2015, at 11:44 AM, barrylevine barrylevine@... [MouthpieceWork] <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> [Attachment(s) <x-msg://72/#TopText> from barrylevine included below]
> 
> My take on this is that players need to know something about adjusting reeds to their satisfaction. They will be much happier players if they have some skills in this area.
> 
> I find there's lots of variability even among reeds of the same brand (although perhaps some of us have found brands that are very consistent?).  Also, reeds are curved across their width as well as along the length of the vamp, and that's an influential variable in how they play.
> 
> Considering the variability among reeds, oral cavities, and embouchures, I think it would be very hard to make more than some very general recommendations, such as a wide facing usually needs a softer reed.
> 
> When you reface a mouthpiece, do you ask the client what reed they are using, and try to use that as a reference? (for example, some synthetic reeds are quite buzzy; a narrow tip rail or baffle insert that's satisfactory with a cane reed might be too buzzy for a Hartman reed. 
> 
> On 2015-06-14 7:47 pm, mk6sax@... <mailto:mk6sax@...> [MouthpieceWork] wrote:
> 
>>  
>> I have been refacing mouthpieces for some time. I still have varying results but mainly very good ones.
>> We put a lot of time and effort into getting the curve,baffle, rails ,tip and sometimes the chamber absolutely as perfect as we can with what tools and expertise that is available to us.  
>> My problem is that we are dependent on the curve of the reed which we have absolutely no control over.
>> 
>> Has anyone in this group done a study with a micrometer on all of the most popular reeds that shows the relationship between the curve on various reeds and the curve length  on say a radial curve tenor mouthpiece with a break point of 24 mm from the very tip at the 1.5 thou feeler?
>> 
>> Instead of saying try this reed or try that reed , we could then advise clients exactly which reeds suit our work and also have a solid reason why..
>> 
>> 
>> 
>  
>  
> 
> 
> <blocked.gif>

Realize that it is not enough to simply have a reed that conveniently vibrates in sync with the pressure fluctuations of the air column to produce a great sound. Any dead cane reed or piece of plastic will do that to some degree.  What makes a good reed good, is it having a strong resonance itself (squeak energy) which lies within a certain frequency range, the exact frequency of which is easily controlled by the player, tuning it independently of the pitch of the fingered fundamental to reinforce some harmonic of the tone.  

Additionally, the reed does not vibrate in a neat, open/closed manner.  It must vibrate differently accross the width of the reed tip in order to reproduce the air column resonances - one part of the tip could be closed for the fundamental while another part could be wide open for the first harmonic, another part almost closed for the second, and another half open for the third, for example.  Add to that the variable reed resonance, and you have some pretty complex motion going on.

One wouldn't expect the reed taper to be linear, since the degree of drop from the table plane to progressive points along the radial facing curve is not linear.  Nor would the reed fiber response to tortion necesarily be linear.

I do not think your description of vibration of a reed across the tip 
(where part of the tip is open and another closed) is correct, and would 
like to see your source on this.

Even playing a note while tipping the mouthpiece from side to side (as 
in the reed balancing maneuver) doesn't change the tone much, just the 
resistance.

To attain a certain tonal quality, it seems sufficient that the 
open-closed movement of the reed characterizes a wave form (which to my 
recollection has some characteristics of a square wave) - which is of 
course composed of a sum of various harmonics.

Barry Levine


On 6/19/2015 6:14 AM, MartinMods lancelotburt@... [MouthpieceWork] 
wrote:
> [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from MartinMods included below]
>
> Realize that it is not enough to simply have a reed that conveniently 
> vibrates in sync with the pressure fluctuations of the air column to 
> produce a great sound. Any dead cane reed or piece of plastic will do 
> that to some degree. What makes a good reed good, is it having a 
> strong resonance itself (squeak energy) which lies within a certain 
> frequency range, the exact frequency of which is easily controlled by 
> the player, tuning it independently of the pitch of the fingered 
> fundamental to reinforce some harmonic of the tone.
>
> Additionally, the reed does not vibrate in a neat, open/closed manner. 
> It must vibrate differently accross the width of the reed tip in order 
> to reproduce the air column resonances - one part of the tip could be 
> closed for the fundamental while another part could be wide open for 
> the first harmonic, another part almost closed for the second, and 
> another half open for the third, for example. Add to that the variable 
> reed resonance, and you have some pretty complex motion going on.
>
> One wouldn't expect the reed taper to be linear, since the degree of 
> drop from the table plane to progressive points along the radial 
> facing curve is not linear. Nor would the reed fiber response to 
> tortion necesarily be linear.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From: * STEVE GOODSON saxgourmet@... [MouthpieceWork] 
> <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>;
> *To: * <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>;
> *Subject: * Re: [MouthpieceWork] Reeds [1 Attachment]
> *Sent: * Wed, Jun 17, 2015 7:16:00 PM
>
> [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from STEVE GOODSON included below]
>
> here’s a comparative reed strength chart
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Jun 17, 2015, at 11:44 AM, barrylevine 
>> barrylevine@... [MouthpieceWork] 
>> <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>>
>> [Attachment(s)from barrylevine included below]
>>
>> My take on this is that players need to know something about 
>> adjusting reeds to their satisfaction. They will be much happier 
>> players if they have some skills in this area.
>>
>> I find there's lots of variability even among reeds of the same brand 
>> (although perhaps some of us have found brands that are very 
>> consistent?).  Also, reeds are curved across their width as well as 
>> along the length of the vamp, and that's an influential variable in 
>> how they play.
>>
>> Considering the variability among reeds, oral cavities, and 
>> embouchures, I think it would be very hard to make more than some 
>> very general recommendations, such as a wide facing usually needs a 
>> softer reed.
>>
>> When you reface a mouthpiece, do you ask the client what reed they 
>> are using, and try to use that as a reference? (for example, some 
>> synthetic reeds are quite buzzy; a narrow tip rail or baffle insert 
>> that's satisfactory with a cane reed might be too buzzy for a Hartman 
>> reed.
>>
>> On 2015-06-14 7:47 pm,mk6sax@...[MouthpieceWork] wrote:
>>
>>> I have been refacing mouthpieces for some time. I still have varying 
>>> results but mainly very good ones.
>>> We put a lot of time and effort into getting the curve,baffle, rails 
>>> ,tip and sometimes the chamber absolutely as perfect as we can with 
>>> what tools and expertise that is available to us.
>>> My problem is that we are dependent on the curve of the reed which 
>>> we have absolutely no control over.
>>>
>>> Has anyone in this group done a study with a micrometer on all of 
>>> the most popular reeds that shows the relationship between the curve 
>>> on various reeds and the curve length  on say a radial curve tenor 
>>> mouthpiece with a break point of 24 mm from the very tip at the 1.5 
>>> thou feeler?
>>>
>>> Instead of saying try this reed or try that reed , we could then 
>>> advise clients exactly which reeds suit our work and also have a 
>>> solid reason why..
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> <blocked.gif>
>
> 

Psuedo-square wave on clarinet.  Sawtooth on sax.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=reed%20motion%20holography&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCcQFjAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fhal.archives-ouvertes.fr%2Fhal-00840516%2Ffile%2Fsideband_holography_HAL.pdf&ei=GjKEVdiIMsnssAXt9YCwCA&usg=AFQjCNEyQtlu4aqdUkf_v6fjP_XDfOTvsw

Note fig 2, right, 181 images of reed vibrating from 1.4 - 20kHz.

Very interesting.
But there's no damping here equivalent to an embouchure, so it can't be 
considered an accurate model for a mouthpiece in a persons mouth.

On 6/19/2015 11:29 AM, MartinMods lancelotburt@... 
[MouthpieceWork] wrote:
>
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=reed%20motion%20holography&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCcQFjAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fhal.archives-ouvertes.fr%2Fhal-00840516%2Ffile%2Fsideband_holography_HAL.pdf&ei=GjKEVdiIMsnssAXt9YCwCA&usg=AFQjCNEyQtlu4aqdUkf_v6fjP_XDfOTvsw
>
> Note fig 2, right, 181 images of reed vibrating from 1.4 - 20kHz.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From: * kwbradbury@... [MouthpieceWork] 
> <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>;
> *To: * <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>;
> *Subject: * Re: [MouthpieceWork] Reeds
> *Sent: * Fri, Jun 19, 2015 2:15:14 PM
>
> Psuedo-square wave on clarinet.  Sawtooth on sax.
>
> 

As has already been pointed out, the thickness of the reed varies over it's width at the tip.  If you believe that with lip damping, these different thicknesses all vibrate as one, for all frequencies, well, you are entitled to your own conclusions.  Mine are other.  I'll agree to disagree.

I suggest you measure the thickness of your reeds at 1-2 mm from the 
tip. Reeds have a uniform thickness at the tip, and this seems to be a 
desirable quality.

Lack of uniformity at the tip apparently causes undesirable instability 
in the reed output. This is why a too-narrow or uneven tip rail may 
squeak; and it's why, as Tom Ridenour points out, reeds are sometimes 
not improved by clipping because it introduces minor asymmetries at the 
tip. It's also why he advocates finishing the tip on a new reed even 
before testing it, with strokes of his tool towards the tip of the reed 
- a method which clearly will generate an even tip thickness.

At the base of the vamp, there is obvious convex curvature across the 
width, which extends forward and decreases, and ends at the tip. To a 
certain extent, this curvature contributes to the voicing of the reed. 
In particular, I find that increasing this curvature somewhat by 
removing material can darken a reed somewhat, without making it harder 
to blow. This is sometimes an alternative adjustment to clipping the tip 
of a reed that's too buzzy.


On 6/19/2015 8:04 PM, MartinMods lancelotburt@... [MouthpieceWork] 
wrote:
>
> As has already been pointed out, the thickness of the reed varies over 
> it's width at the tip. If you believe that with lip damping, these 
> different thicknesses all vibrate as one, for all frequencies, well, 
> you are entitled to your own conclusions. Mine are other. I'll agree 
> to disagree.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From: * Barry Levine barrylevine@... [MouthpieceWork] 
> <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>;
> *To: * <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>;
> *Subject: * Re: [MouthpieceWork] Reeds
> *Sent: * Fri, Jun 19, 2015 4:22:37 PM
>
> Very interesting.
> But there's no damping here equivalent to an embouchure, so it can't 
> be considered an accurate model for a mouthpiece in a persons mouth.
>
> On 6/19/2015 11:29 AM, MartinMods lancelotburt@... 
> [MouthpieceWork] wrote:
>>
>> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=reed%20motion%20holography&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCcQFjAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fhal.archives-ouvertes.fr%2Fhal-00840516%2Ffile%2Fsideband_holography_HAL.pdf&ei=GjKEVdiIMsnssAXt9YCwCA&usg=AFQjCNEyQtlu4aqdUkf_v6fjP_XDfOTvsw
>>
>> Note fig 2, right, 181 images of reed vibrating from 1.4 - 20kHz.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From: * kwbradbury@... [MouthpieceWork] 
>> <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>;
>> *To: * <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>;
>> *Subject: * Re: [MouthpieceWork] Reeds
>> *Sent: * Fri, Jun 19, 2015 2:15:14 PM
>>
>> Psuedo-square wave on clarinet.  Sawtooth on sax.
>>
>
> 

I have over 40 years experience of making my own reeds and mouthpieces and
Tom was my student in the mid 70's. 

I have always thinned the edges of reed tips to warm up the sound but I
mostly play classical clarinet. 

For Jazz, the stronger sides of a reed give the brightness that many jazz
players prefer. 

On all my mouthpieces, most of my reeds work best with a 0.007" (0.18mm)
thickness at the tip and 0.005" (0.14mm) just inside the side of the tip
edge. 

It seems to make sense that the curve down the center of the reed should be
matched along the sides of the reeds but reduced in size, and that is what
works best for me.

 

KenL 

 

From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com]

Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 9:42 AM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Reeds

 

  

I suggest you measure the thickness of your reeds at 1-2 mm from the 
tip. Reeds have a uniform thickness at the tip, and this seems to be a 
desirable quality.

Lack of uniformity at the tip apparently causes undesirable instability 
in the reed output. This is why a too-narrow or uneven tip rail may 
squeak; and it's why, as Tom Ridenour points out, reeds are sometimes 
not improved by clipping because it introduces minor asymmetries at the 
tip. It's also why he advocates finishing the tip on a new reed even 
before testing it, with strokes of his tool towards the tip of the reed 
- a method which clearly will generate an even tip thickness.

At the base of the vamp, there is obvious convex curvature across the 
width, which extends forward and decreases, and ends at the tip. To a 
certain extent, this curvature contributes to the voicing of the reed. 
In particular, I find that increasing this curvature somewhat by 
removing material can darken a reed somewhat, without making it harder 
to blow. This is sometimes an alternative adjustment to clipping the tip 
of a reed that's too buzzy.

On 6/19/2015 8:04 PM, MartinMods lancelotburt@... [MouthpieceWork] 
wrote:
>
> As has already been pointed out, the thickness of the reed varies over 
> it's width at the tip. If you believe that with lip damping, these 
> different thicknesses all vibrate as one, for all frequencies, well, 
> you are entitled to your own conclusions. Mine are other. I'll agree 
> to disagree.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> *From: * Barry Levine barrylevine@... [MouthpieceWork] 
> <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>;
> *To: * <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>;
> *Subject: * Re: [MouthpieceWork] Reeds
> *Sent: * Fri, Jun 19, 2015 4:22:37 PM
>
> Very interesting.
> But there's no damping here equivalent to an embouchure, so it can't 
> be considered an accurate model for a mouthpiece in a persons mouth.
>
> On 6/19/2015 11:29 AM, MartinMods lancelotburt@... 
> [MouthpieceWork] wrote:
>>
>> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t
<http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=reed%20motion%20holography&source=we
b&cd=3&ved=0CCcQFjAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fhal.archives-ouvertes.fr%2Fhal-008405
16%2Ffile%2Fsideband_holography_HAL.pdf&ei=GjKEVdiIMsnssAXt9YCwCA&usg=AFQjCN
EyQtlu4aqdUkf_v6fjP_XDfOTvsw>
&rct=j&q=reed%20motion%20holography&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCcQFjAC&url=https%
3A%2F%2Fhal.archives-ouvertes.fr%2Fhal-00840516%2Ffile%2Fsideband_holography
_HAL.pdf&ei=GjKEVdiIMsnssAXt9YCwCA&usg=AFQjCNEyQtlu4aqdUkf_v6fjP_XDfOTvsw
>>
>> Note fig 2, right, 181 images of reed vibrating from 1.4 - 20kHz.
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> *From: * kwbradbury@... [MouthpieceWork] 
>> <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>;
>> *To: * <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>;
>> *Subject: * Re: [MouthpieceWork] Reeds
>> *Sent: * Fri, Jun 19, 2015 2:15:14 PM
>>
>> Psuedo-square wave on clarinet. Sawtooth on sax.
>>
>
> 

If you set your embouchure so that your lower lip covers all but the last 2mm of the reed - that area, as you point out, having uniform thickness accross the reed's width - your efforts to get any reed vibration will be futile.  The reed fibers must be longer and include the tapered thickness differences of the "heart" to produce a useable sound, one that demands that the reed vibrate asymmetrically for certain frequencies. 

I was not suggesting that the embouchure covers all but the last 2 mm of 
the reed.  That is an absurdity.

(One needn't engage in the rhetorical device of the "straw man" in 
discussions on this forum in order to advance a point of view. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Straw_man )

  *


  *


The link offered showed many vibrational modes of a reed excited without 
any embouchure at all. That is an incomplete representation of the 
playing situation.

Surprisingly to me, both linear AND torsional modes of reed vibration 
are strongly present under conditions of embouchure (see abstract 
below). http://meetings.aps.org/Meeting/MAR05/Event/28310
I'll assume that the "artificial embouchure" was some reasonable 
facsimile, absent further information.

Whether asymmetric vibrational modes are present, and to what extent, 
under ordinary playing conditions, isn't clear however, and I haven't 
found any source to substantiate this assertion.

Barry Levine

> We have extended the work of Pinard et al (J. Acoust. Soc .Am. 113, 
> 1376 (2003)) [see also Facchinetti et al (ibid, p. 2874)] on dry 
> clarinet reeds to permit the modes of moisture-saturated reeds to be 
> visualized. By means of an artificial embouchure, nitrogen gas at 96% 
> relative humidity was passed into a clarinet whose reed was normally 
> attached at the ligature, but free of other constraint. An image of 
> the reed was focused upon a CCD upon which was incident also a 
> collimated reference wave. Just beyond the clarinet's bell was a 
> loudspeaker which excited the clarinet's air column and reed into 
> vibration. The reed's motion could be analyzed from the fringes 
> visible in single-exposure, time-averaged interferograms. When dry, 
> our reeds exhibited low compliance except in the vicinity of sharp 
> resonances whose frequencies, extending upwards from ca. 2.2 kHz , all 
> lay above the fundamentals of the clarinet's musical voice. By 
> contrast, moist reeds were easily excited at any frequency within our 
> clarinet's playing range, which extended downward to D3 at 147 Hz. At 
> almost any frequency, the vibrations of the moist reed were strong 
> mixtures of the flexing and torsional modes exhibited separately in 
> the resonances of the dry reed.


On 6/20/2015 1:56 PM, MartinMods lancelotburt@... [MouthpieceWork] 
wrote:
>
> If you set your embouchure so that your lower lip covers all but the 
> last 2mm of the reed - that area, as you point out, having uniform 
> thickness accross the reed's width - your efforts to get any reed 
> vibration will be futile. The reed fibers must be longer and include 
> the tapered thickness differences of the "heart" to produce a useable 
> sound, one that demands that the reed vibrate asymmetrically for 
> certain frequencies.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From: * 'Ken Lagace' kenlphotos@... [MouthpieceWork] 
> <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>;
> *To: * <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>;
> *Subject: * RE: [MouthpieceWork] Reeds
> *Sent: * Sat, Jun 20, 2015 4:15:59 PM
>
> *I have over 40 years experience of making my own reeds and 
> mouthpieces and Tom was my student in the mid 70’s. *
>
> *I have always thinned the edges of reed tips to warm up the sound but 
> I mostly play classical clarinet. *
>
> *For Jazz, the stronger sides of a reed give the brightness that many 
> jazz players prefer. *
>
> *On all my mouthpieces, most of my reeds work best with a 0.007” 
> (0.18mm) thickness at the tip and 0.005” (0.14mm) just inside the side 
> of the tip edge. *
>
> *It seems to make sense that the curve down the center of the reed 
> should be matched along the sides of the reeds but reduced in size, 
> and that is what works best for me.*
>
> **
>
> *KenL *
>
> *From:*MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com]
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 20, 2015 9:42 AM
> *To:* MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [MouthpieceWork] Reeds
>
> I suggest you measure the thickness of your reeds at 1-2 mm from the
> tip. Reeds have a uniform thickness at the tip, and this seems to be a
> desirable quality.
>
> Lack of uniformity at the tip apparently causes undesirable instability
> in the reed output. This is why a too-narrow or uneven tip rail may
> squeak; and it's why, as Tom Ridenour points out, reeds are sometimes
> not improved by clipping because it introduces minor asymmetries at the
> tip. It's also why he advocates finishing the tip on a new reed even
> before testing it, with strokes of his tool towards the tip of the reed
> - a method which clearly will generate an even tip thickness.
>
> At the base of the vamp, there is obvious convex curvature across the
> width, which extends forward and decreases, and ends at the tip. To a
> certain extent, this curvature contributes to the voicing of the reed.
> In particular, I find that increasing this curvature somewhat by
> removing material can darken a reed somewhat, without making it harder
> to blow. This is sometimes an alternative adjustment to clipping the tip
> of a reed that's too buzzy.
>
> On 6/19/2015 8:04 PM, MartinMods lancelotburt@... [MouthpieceWork]
> wrote:
> >
> > As has already been pointed out, the thickness of the reed varies over
> > it's width at the tip. If you believe that with lip damping, these
> > different thicknesses all vibrate as one, for all frequencies, well,
> > you are entitled to your own conclusions. Mine are other. I'll agree
> > to disagree.
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > *From: * Barry Levine barrylevine@... [MouthpieceWork]
> > <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>;
> > *To: * <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>;
> > *Subject: * Re: [MouthpieceWork] Reeds
> > *Sent: * Fri, Jun 19, 2015 4:22:37 PM
> >
> > Very interesting.
> > But there's no damping here equivalent to an embouchure, so it can't
> > be considered an accurate model for a mouthpiece in a persons mouth.
> >
> > On 6/19/2015 11:29 AM, MartinMods lancelotburt@...
> > [MouthpieceWork] wrote:
> >>
> >> 
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=reed%20motion%20holography&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCcQFjAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fhal.archives-ouvertes.fr%2Fhal-00840516%2Ffile%2Fsideband_holography_HAL.pdf&ei=GjKEVdiIMsnssAXt9YCwCA&usg=AFQjCNEyQtlu4aqdUkf_v6fjP_XDfOTvsw
> >>
> >> Note fig 2, right, 181 images of reed vibrating from 1.4 - 20kHz.
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >> *From: * kwbradbury@... [MouthpieceWork]
> >> <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>;
> >> *To: * <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>;
> >> *Subject: * Re: [MouthpieceWork] Reeds
> >> *Sent: * Fri, Jun 19, 2015 2:15:14 PM
> >>
> >> Psuedo-square wave on clarinet. Sawtooth on sax.
> >>
> >
> >
>
>