I found the inconsistency of my using excel file. I am using in file section (method- ad's elliptical facing mark2)

The problem I found is the radial curves's numbers are not correct.  

Contrary, the file section (tenor, alto radial curve's numbers are correct) but it is inconvenient to use.

I go in doubt about the elliptical numbers in ad's ellipiticall facing mark2 excel file.

I want to know i'm wrong or not.  If ad's file has some problem. 

Can anyone send me a good elliptical excel file, please?

I'm using (tip rail : inch) / (tip opening : inch) / (facing : mm2). 

My email is fodera.mg5@gmail.com. 

Hi,  could you be more specific on what exactly are those inconsistencies in Ed's exel file calculations,  just curious?
 

In file section, there are many radial facing excel file. 

 (Same tip opening, tip rail, facing length, thickness gauge) 
 

 The number is calculated is different with ad's file (radial section / maybe elliptical section's numbers too)
 

 

I looked over the AD sheet and it is good.  The problem may be in how you are putting the data in to compare it to other sheets.  You need to watch your units as some numbers are in inches, some mm and some mm*2.  Also some sheets calculate a best fit through the readings using a solver and a least squares formulation.  AD's sheet does not do this.  It is a straight forward curve calculation if your inputs (number in the yellow boxes) are correct.
What numbers are you using and in which sheet do they look different than AD's?  Saying "all of them" does not help.  You need to show your work. 
       From: "fodera5@yahoo.com [MouthpieceWork]" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
 To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 11:37 AM
 Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Can someone tell me I'm wrong or not?
   
    In file section, there are many radial facing excel file
(Same tip opening, tip rail, facing length, thickness gauge) 
The number is calculated is different with ad's file (radial section / maybe elliptical section's numbers too)

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Thank you for your kind advice. 

 Eventually, I am studying excel and formula(radial, elliptical)
 

 In elliptical formula excel sheet, y= fl - a/b*SQRT(2bx-x^2)
 

  =$F$8 - $H$5*SQRT(2 * C9 * 50.8 * $H$8 - POWER(C9 * 50.8,2))
 

 I understood everything except x value.
 

 Why x = C9 * 50.8 always in ad's file?   
 

 What means 50.8 ? 
 

 Sorry my english.....
 

  
 

 

  

50.8 is = 25.4*2 = conversion factor for changing inches into mm*2 glass gage readings.

C9 points to the number in column C, row 9.  This is a feeler gage size.  The next formula below this one points to C10, then C11...   X is the feeler gage size (mm*2) and Y is the glass gage reading (inches).


> On Apr 1, 2015, at 10:55 PM, fodera5@... [MouthpieceWork] <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Thank you for your kind advice.
> 
> 
> Eventually, I am studying excel and formula(radial, elliptical)
> 
> In elliptical formula excel sheet, y= fl - a/b*SQRT(2bx-x^2)
> 
>  =$F$8 - $H$5*SQRT(2 * C9 * 50.8 * $H$8 - POWER(C9 * 50.8,2))
> 
> I understood everything except x value.
> 
> Why x = C9 * 50.8 always in ad's file?   
> 
> What means 50.8 ? 
> 
> Sorry my english.....
> 
>  
> 
> 
>  
> 

Thank you!!!! Keith. 

 Finally, I understand elliptical formula almost.
 

 God bless you, and your company!!
 

 thank you....
 

 

50.8 is = 25.4*2 = conversion factor for changing inches into mm*2 glass gage readings.

==>  Correct.  But facing LENGTHS are usually in mm*2, that is measured in 1/2 mm 
increments.  A reading of 20 is actually 10 mm.  

This goes back to the Eric Brand mouthpiece kits and measuring system.  Eric Brand was a line of musical instrument repair tools, and he also published a very good instrument repair manual... one I learned from.  One chapter in that manual, later split off into a separate manual, was the mouthpiece refacing section.

The Eric Brand system was actually based on the metric system.  He felt that full mm increments was too much, did not give the fine accuracy he wanted.  And he wanted to be able to express facing length, or 
length readings with the feelers, using whole numbers, not using decimals.  So he made his glass gauge 
as we see it used now, 25 mm = a reading of 50 (50 half mm's).

Similarly, the tip opening in the Eric Brand System was based on metric, without the decimal.  A tip reading 
of "180" was actually 1.80 mm.

In Europe tip opening are generally expressed as mm's.  A clarinet moutpiece might have a tip opening of 1.30 mm's.  Measured with the Eric Brand gauge, it would measure "130". 

In the USA that same mouthpiece would probably be in thousandths of an inch, and 1.30mm / 25.4 mm/in = .051".

The "serial number" shown on many mouthpieces (not all, but many) was actually the facing description with the first two numbers being the facing length as measured with the 0.0015" feeler (or 0.04 mm) in mm*2 numbers, a two digit number (no halves), and the remaining three digits the tip opening in mm*100.

So a clarinet facing might be 16.5 mm long as measured with the Eric Brand glass and 0.0015" or 0.04mm feeler, a "33", and the tip of 1.30 mm, or "130" with the Eric Brand tip want gauge ( or x 25.4 mm/in = 0.051").  This would be described as 33130.  

A tenor sax mouthpiece might be numbered 42210.  Its facing length would be 21 mm long, or 42 on the E. 
Brand glass gauge measured with the .0015" feeler.  The tip opening would be "210" or 2.10 mm (divided by 25.4 = 0.083" tip).  Those two numbers would give a good description of a radial facing that could be 
duplicated by another repairman.

Paul C.
 

I must have been on a different planet...this is the first timeI've see this explanation!Paul..you're THE man!
 Sonus Instrument Repair
Tom Tapscott
802 Glendale Dr
Clarksville, TN 37043
931-551-9411
sonusrepair@...m 


     On Friday, April 3, 2015 8:30 AM, "tenorman1952@... [MouthpieceWork]" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
   

     50.8 is = 25.4*2 = conversion factor for changing inches into mm*2 glass gage readings.

===>  Correct.  But facing LENGTHS are usually in mm*2, that is measured in 1/2 mm 
increments.  A reading of 20 is actually 10 mm.  

This goes back to the Eric Brand mouthpiece kits and measuring system.  Eric Brand was a line of musical instrument repair tools, and he also published a very good instrument repair manual... one I learned from.  One chapter in that manual, later split off into a separate manual, was the mouthpiece refacing section.

The Eric Brand system was actually based on the metric system.  He felt that full mm increments was too much, did not give the fine accuracy he wanted.  And he wanted to be able to express facing length, or 
length readings with the feelers, using whole numbers, not using decimals.  So he made his glass gauge 
as we see it used now, 25 mm = a reading of 50 (50 half mm's).

Similarly, the tip opening in the Eric Brand System was based on metric, without the decimal.  A tip reading 
of "180" was actually 1.80 mm.

In Europe tip opening are generally expressed as mm's.  A clarinet moutpiece might have a tip opening of 1.30 mm's.  Measured with the Eric Brand gauge, it would measure "130". 

In the USA that same mouthpiece would probably be in thousandths of an inch, and 1.30mm / 25.4 mm/in = .051".

The "serial number" shown on many mouthpieces (not all, but many) was actually the facing description with the first two numbers being the facing length as measured with the 0.0015" feeler (or 0.04 mm) in mm*2 numbers, a two digit number (no halves), and the remaining three digits the tip opening in mm*100.

So a clarinet facing might be 16.5 mm long as measured with the Eric Brand glass and 0.0015" or 0.04mm feeler, a "33", and the tip of 1.30 mm, or "130" with the Eric Brand tip want gauge ( or x 25.4 mm/in = 0.051").  This would be described as 33130.  

A tenor sax mouthpiece might be numbered 42210.  Its facing length would be 21 mm long, or 42 on the E. 
Brand glass gauge measured with the .0015" feeler.  The tip opening would be "210" or 2.10 mm (divided by 25.4 = 0.083" tip).  Those two numbers would give a good description of a radial facing that could be 
duplicated by another repairman.

Paul C.
   #yiv4394180177 #yiv4394180177 -- #yiv4394180177ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv4394180177 #yiv4394180177ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv4394180177 #yiv4394180177ygrp-mkp #yiv4394180177hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv4394180177 #yiv4394180177ygrp-mkp #yiv4394180177ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv4394180177 #yiv4394180177ygrp-mkp .yiv4394180177ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv4394180177 #yiv4394180177ygrp-mkp .yiv4394180177ad p {margin:0;}#yiv4394180177 #yiv4394180177ygrp-mkp .yiv4394180177ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv4394180177 #yiv4394180177ygrp-sponsor #yiv4394180177ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv4394180177 #yiv4394180177ygrp-sponsor #yiv4394180177ygrp-lc #yiv4394180177hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv4394180177 #yiv4394180177ygrp-sponsor #yiv4394180177ygrp-lc .yiv4394180177ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}#yiv4394180177 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This a very rare occurrence to find a mouthpiece marked with this system these days.  Even if you do, it most likely will not measure close to where it is marked due to wear.
Paul wrote:"The "serial number" shown on many mouthpieces (not all, but many) was actually the facing description with the first two numbers being the facing length as measured with the 0.0015" feeler (or 0.04 mm) in mm*2 numbers, a two digit number (no halves), and the remaining three digits the tip opening in mm*100.

So a clarinet facing might be 16.5 mm long as measured with the Eric Brand glass and 0.0015" or 0.04mm feeler, a "33", and the tip of 1.30 mm, or "130" with the Eric Brand tip want gauge ( or x 25.4 mm/in = 0.051").  This would be described as 33130. "

      From: "Tom Tapscott sonusrepair@... [MouthpieceWork]" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
 To: "MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> 
 Sent: Friday, April 3, 2015 9:43 AM
 Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Can someone tell me I'm wrong or not?
   
    I must have been on a different planet...this is the first timeI've see this explanation!Paul..you're THE man!
 Sonus Instrument Repair
Tom Tapscott
802 Glendale Dr
Clarksville, TN 37043
931-551-9411
sonusrepair@... 


     On Friday, April 3, 2015 8:30 AM, "tenorman1952@...m [MouthpieceWork]" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
   

     50.8 is = 25.4*2 = conversion factor for changing inches into mm*2 glass gage readings.

===>  Correct.  But facing LENGTHS are usually in mm*2, that is measured in 1/2 mm 
increments.  A reading of 20 is actually 10 mm.  

This goes back to the Eric Brand mouthpiece kits and measuring system.  Eric Brand was a line of musical instrument repair tools, and he also published a very good instrument repair manual... one I learned from.  One chapter in that manual, later split off into a separate manual, was the mouthpiece refacing section.

The Eric Brand system was actually based on the metric system.  He felt that full mm increments was too much, did not give the fine accuracy he wanted.  And he wanted to be able to express facing length, or 
length readings with the feelers, using whole numbers, not using decimals.  So he made his glass gauge 
as we see it used now, 25 mm = a reading of 50 (50 half mm's).

Similarly, the tip opening in the Eric Brand System was based on metric, without the decimal.  A tip reading 
of "180" was actually 1.80 mm.

In Europe tip opening are generally expressed as mm's.  A clarinet moutpiece might have a tip opening of 1.30 mm's.  Measured with the Eric Brand gauge, it would measure "130". 

In the USA that same mouthpiece would probably be in thousandths of an inch, and 1.30mm / 25.4 mm/in = .051".

The "serial number" shown on many mouthpieces (not all, but many) was actually the facing description with the first two numbers being the facing length as measured with the 0.0015" feeler (or 0.04 mm) in mm*2 numbers, a two digit number (no halves), and the remaining three digits the tip opening in mm*100.

So a clarinet facing might be 16.5 mm long as measured with the Eric Brand glass and 0.0015" or 0.04mm feeler, a "33", and the tip of 1.30 mm, or "130" with the Eric Brand tip want gauge ( or x 25.4 mm/in = 0.051").  This would be described as 33130.  

A tenor sax mouthpiece might be numbered 42210.  Its facing length would be 21 mm long, or 42 on the E. 
Brand glass gauge measured with the .0015" feeler.  The tip opening would be "210" or 2.10 mm (divided by 25.4 = 0.083" tip).  Those two numbers would give a good description of a radial facing that could be 
duplicated by another repairman.

Paul C.
   

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Hi,
I am looking for a manual method to get a nice and defined concave table.
I suppose the first part is to make a nice plane table and do the
refacing work on rails, tip and baffle, and afterwards bring the table
towards a concave shape.
But I have no idea so far how I can do that last part without messing up
the table and starting point of the facing curve.
Any hints?

Thanks in advance
Jens

Concave which way?   Tip to heel (often called a french curve) or side to side, or both?  
I occasionally do a side to side concave when a client refuses to flatten his cane reeds when they swell and they complain about a poor seal.  I just sand it with various sandpaper grades under my finger.   It usually solve about half of the problem temporarily.
      From: "Jens Erler mothbox@... [MouthpieceWork]" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
 To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 2:59 PM
 Subject: [MouthpieceWork] How to make a concave table?
   
    Hi,
I am looking for a manual method to get a nice and defined concave table.
I suppose the first part is to make a nice plane table and do the
refacing work on rails, tip and baffle, and afterwards bring the table
towards a concave shape.
But I have no idea so far how I can do that last part without messing up
the table and starting point of the facing curve.
Any hints?

Thanks in advance
Jens

  #yiv5564873480 #yiv5564873480 -- #yiv5564873480ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv5564873480 #yiv5564873480ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv5564873480 #yiv5564873480ygrp-mkp #yiv5564873480hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv5564873480 #yiv5564873480ygrp-mkp #yiv5564873480ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv5564873480 #yiv5564873480ygrp-mkp .yiv5564873480ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv5564873480 #yiv5564873480ygrp-mkp .yiv5564873480ad p {margin:0;}#yiv5564873480 #yiv5564873480ygrp-mkp .yiv5564873480ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv5564873480 #yiv5564873480ygrp-sponsor #yiv5564873480ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv5564873480 #yiv5564873480ygrp-sponsor #yiv5564873480ygrp-lc #yiv5564873480hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv5564873480 #yiv5564873480ygrp-sponsor #yiv5564873480ygrp-lc .yiv5564873480ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}#yiv5564873480 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I’ve seen this done in the process of refacing clarinet mouthpieces to replicate the dip that was part of the table design of Chedeville and Kaspar clarinet mouthpieces. Doing it by hand works for one mouthpiece as part of a custom refacing but, I’m curious about how it would have been done by Chedeville or his  blank suppliers. I wouldn’t think they did each one by hand.??

 

Karl  

 

From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 12:02 PM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] How to make a concave table?

 

  

Concave which way?   Tip to heel (often called a french curve) or side to side, or both?  

 

I occasionally do a side to side concave when a client refuses to flatten his cane reeds when they swell and they complain about a poor seal.  I just sand it with various sandpaper grades under my finger.   It usually solve about half of the problem temporarily.

 

  _____  

From: "Jens Erler mothbox@... [MouthpieceWork]" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
To: MouthpieceWork@...m 
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 2:59 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] How to make a concave table?

 

  

Hi,
I am looking for a manual method to get a nice and defined concave table.
I suppose the first part is to make a nice plane table and do the
refacing work on rails, tip and baffle, and afterwards bring the table
towards a concave shape.
But I have no idea so far how I can do that last part without messing up
the table and starting point of the facing curve.
Any hints?

Thanks in advance
Jens

 





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http://www.avast.com

A surface grinder with the right radius wheel could do it. Or a large cutter on a turret mill with the head at a slight angle would give you a concavity in both dimensions.

Thanks for your ideas, guys!
Keith, I must admit I never thought about doing it side to side, but always tip to heel.
Are there any advantages of one or the other way doing it?

best regards
Jens

Few months to a tear a member here came with quite interesting glass set,
to make a concave table. Go back in the archive and you will find it.

On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 3:27 AM, mothbox@... [MouthpieceWork] <
MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>
>
> Thanks for your ideas, guys!
> Keith, I must admit I never thought about doing it side to side, but
> always tip to heel.
> Are there any advantages of one or the other way doing it?
>
> best regards
> Jens
>  
>



-- 
Sakshama

www. sakshamamouthpieces.com

This html message parsed with html2text ---------------------------While we are on the subject of tables. Without any leading remarks, what is
your take on this new line of mouthpieces with the double window.? The second
window in a rectangle cut out of the table of the mouthpiece. \\---
MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com wrote: From: "Sakshama Koloski
sakshama1@gmail.com [MouthpieceWork]"  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] How to make a concave table? Date: Fri, 17 Apr
2015 09:56:30 -0400 Few months to a tear a member here came with quite
interesting glass set, to make a concave table. Go back in the archive and you
will find it. On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 3:27 AM,
[mothbox@gmx.net](mailto:mothbox@gmx.net) [MouthpieceWork]
<[MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com](mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com)>
wrote: > __ > > Thanks for your ideas, guys! Keith, I must admit I never
thought about doing it side to side, but always tip to heel. Are there any
advantages of one or the other way doing it? best regards Jens \\-- Sakshama
www. [sakshamamouthpieces.com](http://sakshamamouthpieces.com) * * * Netscape.
Just the Net You Need.

I think there are disadvantages to both types of concave tables.  They both attempt to compensate for cane reed swell.  Flat on flat is a better strategy IMO.

> On Apr 17, 2015, at 3:27 AM, mothbox@... [MouthpieceWork] <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for your ideas, guys!
> Keith, I must admit I never thought about doing it side to side, but always tip to heel.
> Are there any advantages of one or the other way doing it?
> 
> best regards
> Jens
> 
> 

My understanding as a student in the’60s and early ‘70s was that, as Chedeville and Kaspar applied this, its purpose was to force the tip to be sprung slightly outward, away from the table, as the ligature pressed it into the cavity, giving the reed more resilience for a given tip opening than it would have with a flat table. I don’t know if this was their innovation historically or if others had the same purpose in mind. 

 

Karl

 

From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 10:57 AM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] How to make a concave table?

 

  

I think there are disadvantages to both types of concave tables.  They both attempt to compensate for cane reed swell.  Flat on flat is a better strategy IMO.


On Apr 17, 2015, at 3:27 AM, mothbox@... [MouthpieceWork] <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

  

Thanks for your ideas, guys!
Keith, I must admit I never thought about doing it side to side, but always tip to heel.
Are there any advantages of one or the other way doing it?

best regards
Jens





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It does do this a bit.  But what tip opening do you end up with?   Better to use a flat table and face it to the tip opening you want.
       From: "'Karl Krelove' karlkrelove@... [MouthpieceWork]" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
 To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 11:05 AM
 Subject: RE: [MouthpieceWork] How to make a concave table?
   
    My understanding as a student in the’60s and early ‘70s was that, as Chedeville and Kaspar applied this, its purpose was to force the tip to be sprung slightly outward, away from the table, as the ligature pressed it into the cavity, giving the reed more resilience for a given tip opening than it would have with a flat table. I don’t know if this was their innovation historically or if others had the same purpose in mind.   Karl  

From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 10:57 AM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] How to make a concave table?    I think there are disadvantages to both types of concave tables.  They both attempt to compensate for cane reed swell.  Flat on flat is a better strategy IMO.
On Apr 17, 2015, at 3:27 AM, mothbox@... [MouthpieceWork] <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
  Thanks for your ideas, guys!
Keith, I must admit I never thought about doing it side to side, but always tip to heel.
Are there any advantages of one or the other way doing it?

best regards
Jens
 


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