I would like to learn how to use a lathe. My goal is to learn how to make my own end plugs, ligatures & mouthpiece blanks out of wood & hard rubber.
 

 I'm wondering if anyone here has any suggestions how to go about learning this skill.
 

 My plan is to take at least one lesson before investing in any of my own equipment & tools.
 

 I'm based in Jersey City, NJ so any local resources would be helpful.
 

 Any lathe issues that are specific to woodwind work would be very much appreciated.
 

 Thanks!
 

 

I use a Taig lathe.  It is a relatively capable device.  Some people use a Sherline lathe, another noble device.At the sizes required for mouthpieces, and a variety of other challenges for musical instrument part modification and repair, either of them are OK.
The major differences between watchmaker's lathes, huge tool-maker's lathes, and those in-between (like Taig, Unimat, Sherline, etc) is rigidity.Rigidity is what makes a superior lathe.  Tiny lathes have very little, and big lathes have a lot.  Rigidity determines how much you can cut at one pass.ALL lathes can make fabulous parts, if you don't exceed the limits of the machine, the user, or the material.One thing that small lathes do not do well is threading.  It takes an extra thousand (to half million) dollars to graduate up to a lathe that has thread cutting capability.  The reason for that is that it needs a transmission, and a set of changeable gears that will drive a lead-screw.  The lead-screw will transport the carriage in a path predicted by the gear ratio.  The other way to make threads is to use taps and dies.  This has been an acceptable answer for centuries.  Honestly, for musical instrument parts, hand work, taps and dies, and careful planning make perfect parts.  For mouthpiece work, threading is a non-issue, but it is a very valuable skill to have, when using your genius to create, modify and repair parts.Experience is the best teacher.  Download and/or watch as much as you can, but make chips.  The more chips you make, the more accurate you will be.  I suggest reading "Home Shop Machinist" magazine, and tackling a few of their projects.  Buy a few kits, and use them to gain experience.The first minute, hour, day of your trek should be learning how to screw things up without hurting yourself -- Be careful, and learn safety.  The rest will come.
      From: "mike@mikewilkens.com [MouthpieceWork]" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
 To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2015 11:17 AM
 Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Learning to use a lathe...
   
    I would like to learn how to use a lathe. My goal is to learn how to make my own end plugs, ligatures & mouthpiece blanks out of wood & hard rubber.
I'm wondering if anyone here has any suggestions how to go about learning this skill.
My plan is to take at least one lesson before investing in any of my own equipment & tools.
I'm based in Jersey City, NJ so any local resources would be helpful.
Any lathe issues that are specific to woodwind work would be very much appreciated.
Thanks!

  #yiv6208453410 #yiv6208453410 -- #yiv6208453410ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv6208453410 #yiv6208453410ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv6208453410 #yiv6208453410ygrp-mkp #yiv6208453410hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv6208453410 #yiv6208453410ygrp-mkp #yiv6208453410ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv6208453410 #yiv6208453410ygrp-mkp .yiv6208453410ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv6208453410 #yiv6208453410ygrp-mkp .yiv6208453410ad p {margin:0;}#yiv6208453410 #yiv6208453410ygrp-mkp .yiv6208453410ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv6208453410 #yiv6208453410ygrp-sponsor #yiv6208453410ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv6208453410 #yiv6208453410ygrp-sponsor #yiv6208453410ygrp-lc #yiv6208453410hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv6208453410 #yiv6208453410ygrp-sponsor #yiv6208453410ygrp-lc .yiv6208453410ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}#yiv6208453410 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I have the 7" x 16" lathe from Micromark. 

http://www.micromark.com/ http://www.micromark.com/  
http://www.micromark.com/microlux-7x16-mini-lathe,9615.html http://www.micromark.com/microlux-7x16-mini-lathe,9615.html

First thing, go to 

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/ http://www.littlemachineshop.com/  
and get a catalog.

For most of the Chinese lathes these parts are interchangeable.  The lathe is only half 
of the endeavor.  It is the tools and other accessories that you will need are necessary.  
Little Machine Shop has some good "packages" or groups of tools and accessories 
that make buying and setting up easier.

An excellent material to work with, and beats hard rubber all to heck, is Delrin (generic 
name acetal).  This comes in black or white.  It is a tough, self lubricating plastic.  It 
machines like a dream, and can be machined very precisely.  I first became familiar 
with Delrin back in the 1960's used for slot car gear and bushings.  Later I found it 
was used in R/C model helicopters and cars for gears, and many other industrial uses.  

You can buy Delrin or acetal rod via Amazon.  I have sizes up to 2" diameter.  

Tip, avoid wasting money on the red cutting bits.  The bits with the interchangeable 
carbide tips, the little triangular shaped ones, are the schiznitz!  Get the ones with 
the larger radius tips.  They cut Delrin such that if your final pass is slow it will have 
a smooth polished appearance.

Paul C.

I've got one of those little Chinese 7x16 lathes like Paul's. I wouldn't call it a good machine but it's good enough for what I do on it. Even so, I occasionally get fed up with how flimsy it is. I don't know where I'd find the time to make a blank on it. I don't know if you're talking about a real machine tool or a toy like the Siegs and Taigs, etc., but get the heaviest machine in your budget. A well built but old larger machine is usually a better buy than a smaller new machine at the same market price. As a general rule, whatever you spend on the machine count on spending half that again on tooling. Learn to grind HSS tools, you'll get a better finish than with carbide on a small machine, especially in ebonite. 

 The subject of how to use it is too vast, but when you get going if you have anything specific I'm happy to share if I can help.

Sign up for a machine shop course at your local community college.  Read everything you can about lathes.  Here is a great resource - Lathes
|   |
|   |  |   |   |   |   |   |
| LathesAn incomplete list of Manufacturers and Brands associated with lathes, millers, shapers, planers, grinders and other ordinary machine tools.  |
|  |
| View on www.lathes.co.uk | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |

  
Fortunately for you, when it comes time to purchase one, good used lathes are much more common and cheaper on the East Coast than out West.  I purchased a small Unimat lathe when I started out.  A good "toy" lathe is invaluable for small parts and handy to have as a second lathe, for little jobs.  I quickly realized I needed something more sturdy for serious work though, so I started checking Craigslist regularly.  I found a nice 10" Logan (quality old American iron - like South Bend) that had very little wear, for $400.00.  Best tool I ever bought.  It does threading and I use that feature all of the time.  Making threaded mouthpiece extensions is one use for them.  Threaded shank repair rings, another.  The biggest use though, is in making threaded tools and attachments for your lathe and other machine tools.  It's the tool that can repair/rebuild itself.
HSS is the idea cutter material for my applications, even cutting/boring stainless steel mouthpiece blanks.

     On Friday, February 13, 2015 3:40 PM, "frymorgan@... [MouthpieceWork]" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
   

     I've got one of those little Chinese 7x16 lathes like Paul's. I wouldn't call it a good machine but it's good enough for what I do on it. Even so, I occasionally get fed up with how flimsy it is. I don't know where I'd find the time to make a blank on it. I don't know if you're talking about a real machine tool or a toy like the Siegs and Taigs, etc., but get the heaviest machine in your budget. A well built but old larger machine is usually a better buy than a smaller new machine at the same market price. As a general rule, whatever you spend on the machine count on spending half that again on tooling. Learn to grind HSS tools, you'll get a better finish than with carbide on a small machine, especially in ebonite.
The subject of how to use it is too vast, but when you get going if you have anything specific I'm happy to share if I can help.  #yiv5588549052 #yiv5588549052 -- #yiv5588549052ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv5588549052 #yiv5588549052ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv5588549052 #yiv5588549052ygrp-mkp #yiv5588549052hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv5588549052 #yiv5588549052ygrp-mkp #yiv5588549052ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv5588549052 #yiv5588549052ygrp-mkp .yiv5588549052ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv5588549052 #yiv5588549052ygrp-mkp .yiv5588549052ad p {margin:0;}#yiv5588549052 #yiv5588549052ygrp-mkp .yiv5588549052ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv5588549052 #yiv5588549052ygrp-sponsor #yiv5588549052ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv5588549052 #yiv5588549052ygrp-sponsor #yiv5588549052ygrp-lc #yiv5588549052hd {margin:10px 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Yeah. Take classes at a CC. Today's schools are NC (numerical control) centric but you can pick up a lot about manual lathes... try and get an older teacher! 

 The advice about hanging out for a good, old, substantial lathe is right-on. I've got a Craftsman 6" screw cutting lathe. I paid $200 for it 40 years ago. You can get a lathe like this today, or bigger, for $200. 
 

 Next stop for you is a mill..... :o)

If you decide to go the used route, you will see a lot of Atlas/Craftsman lathes. I'd avoid them as they are very flimsy.  South Bend, Logan, and Sheldon, made some nice 10" lathes, to name a few.
 

     On Friday, February 13, 2015 4:40 PM, "MartinMods lancelotburt@... [MouthpieceWork]" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
   

     Sign up for a machine shop course at your local community college.  Read everything you can about lathes.  Here is a great resource - Lathes
|   |
|   |  |   |   |   |   |   |
| LathesAn incomplete list of Manufacturers and Brands associated with lathes, millers, shapers, planers, grinders and other ordinary machine tools.  |
|  |
| View on www.lathes.co.uk | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |

  
Fortunately for you, when it comes time to purchase one, good used lathes are much more common and cheaper on the East Coast than out West.  I purchased a small Unimat lathe when I started out.  A good "toy" lathe is invaluable for small parts and handy to have as a second lathe, for little jobs.  I quickly realized I needed something more sturdy for serious work though, so I started checking Craigslist regularly.  I found a nice 10" Logan (quality old American iron - like South Bend) that had very little wear, for $400.00.  Best tool I ever bought.  It does threading and I use that feature all of the time.  Making threaded mouthpiece extensions is one use for them.  Threaded shank repair rings, another.  The biggest use though, is in making threaded tools and attachments for your lathe and other machine tools.  It's the tool that can repair/rebuild itself.
HSS is the idea cutter material for my applications, even cutting/boring stainless steel mouthpiece blanks.

     On Friday, February 13, 2015 3:40 PM, "frymorgan@... [MouthpieceWork]" <MouthpieceWork@...m> wrote:
   

     I've got one of those little Chinese 7x16 lathes like Paul's. I wouldn't call it a good machine but it's good enough for what I do on it. Even so, I occasionally get fed up with how flimsy it is. I don't know where I'd find the time to make a blank on it. I don't know if you're talking about a real machine tool or a toy like the Siegs and Taigs, etc., but get the heaviest machine in your budget. A well built but old larger machine is usually a better buy than a smaller new machine at the same market price. As a general rule, whatever you spend on the machine count on spending half that again on tooling. Learn to grind HSS tools, you'll get a better finish than with carbide on a small machine, especially in ebonite.
The subject of how to use it is too vast, but when you get going if you have anything specific I'm happy to share if I can help.  

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Disagree a bit. Depends on what you pay for it. As mentioned in earlier posts, old lathes are getting cheaper and cheaper. Certainly try and get a Logan or a South Bend. "V" ways, better gear box and sturdier cross slide is better.... but if you're not going to be using the thing 6 hours a day a Craftsman or an Atlas can be a good choice if the price is right.  

 Check out this guy's comments on Atlas: Comments on the 10" Atlas Lathe https://pico-systems.com/atlas.html 
 
 https://pico-systems.com/atlas.html 
 
 Comments on the 10" Atlas Lathe https://pico-systems.com/atlas.html Well, compared to other toolroom lathes, the Atlas is at the bottom of the heap in quality, rigidity, stability, etc. A South Bend, Clausing, Logan or other lathes...
 
 
 
 View on pico-systems.com https://pico-systems.com/atlas.html 
 Preview by Yahoo 
 
 
  

  

Thanks Will! 

 I just subscribed to "Home Shop Machinists."
 

 I am meeting with my teacher-to-be on Sunday. He suggested starting on hard maple to learn basic turning techniques. I'll try to make some ligatures as they may work in that material.
 

 Thanks again!

Paul, I got the downloaded the catalog.
 Thanks for the tips. I'll keep them in mind when I'm ready to buy.
 

 I'm looking forward to getting some hands on experience first.
 Thanks!

I'm hoping to find something old and sturdy for a good price. I'm watching videos on grinding HSS tools now.
 

 You said "you'll get a better finish than with carbide on a small machine, especially in ebonite".
 

 Can you elaborate on this (maybe explain the why)? Also could you give me some examples of what you mean by small vs. large machines?
 

 If I follow you correctly, small would be new & Chinese, large would be vintage US iron...
 

 Thanks!

Bill, 

 I'll keep my eyes open for deals like you got.
 

 As for the mill... One step at a time!
 

 Thanks,
 Mike

I have been checking into C.C. classes here in New Jersey and haven't found anything definitive yet. 

 Raritan Valley C.C. has a machine shop in Bridgewater, but when I called they didn't seem sure if there are still classes offered. Hopefully they will get back to me.
 

 Stephen's Institute of Technology also has some references online to a machine shop. I called, and same story. They aren't sure and they will have someone call me back.
 

 If anyone knows of anything within an hour and a half drive of Jersey City that would be very helpful.
 

 Something like you described, 10" Logan for $400 sounds perfect. I'll haunt craigslist for a deal like that.
 

 Thanks!

Hi Mike,

You may have some problems with this guy's accent as he's from the North
East of England, but he's a 1st Class machinist.
His lathe and milling machine are a little larger than you need, but his
videos are very informative and a good source of techniques.


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5iubxTqtZ1GKUQTrz4-CXw


Also, closer to home and one of the best woodturner's I've seen, you will
also pick up a lot of information from Stephen Ogle.


https://www.youtube.com/user/stvnogle

Best of luck in your search.

David.


On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 5:05 PM, mike@... [MouthpieceWork] <
MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>
>
> Bill,
>
> I'll keep my eyes open for deals like you got.
>
> As for the mill... One step at a time!
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
>  
>

HSS can have a sharper edge than carbide can, which is more important for ebonite than for most metals. Also you can grind the appropriate shape for the material, the geometry of carbide inserts is typically for one kind of metal or another, and varying degrees of sub-optimal for ebonite (most work fine for brass IME). 

 By small machine I mean less than maybe half a ton. It's about mass and rigidity and motor power, not country of origin. With some real power and rigidity you can get greater material removal rates with carbide than HSS so even though the finish won't be as good you do save time. But if you have to take smaller cuts because of a lack of power or rigidity, HSS is more optimal.
 

 

One more quick thought -- buying a used machine can have it's pitfalls, like buying a used car. If you don't know what to look for-- how much wear is on the ways, spindle runout, which problems are an easy fix and which ones are intractable, etc. -- you're buying a pig in a poke. Unless you have a friend you trust to vet a machine for you it might be prudent to start with a new budget machine to learn on (e.g. chinese 7x16) until you can spot a good deal when it does eventually come along.

frymorgan has it right. Unless you know what to look for get some help or buy something new and economical. From China Grizzly isn't a bad source. Jet might be a step up. Harbor Freight has its problems.... often you have to fix Harbor Freight stuff before you can use it (part of the fun).  

 One thing I think I've noticed is its not always clear whether we're talking about wood turning or metal lathe turning. There are a lot of similarities and a lot of differences. If you're going to be making clarinet barrels, a wood lathe is just fine. If you need repetitive precision you'll want a metal lathe with an accurate cross slide. Threads? You need a screw cutting lathe. 
 

 Regards the finish and the cutter composition and the materials.... it sort of matters but also sort of doesn't. You can cut pretty much anything on any kind of lathe. In general you will get a smoother cut with a "bull nose" shape. That's a half round shape. You'll have to consider rake angles (chip clearance), feeds and speeds and material hardness. Lots of info on-line. Here's one: http://its.foxvalleytech.com/MachShop2/cuttools/Toolshapes.htm http://its.foxvalleytech.com/MachShop2/cuttools/Toolshapes.htm
 

 After that its files and sandpaper!
 
 

Thanks for all the great advice guys. 

 I'm meeting with a local wood turning artist on Sunday. I'll talk to him about equipment before I buy anything. It also makes sense to have some hands on experience before I spend very much money. I will definitely consult you guys here to before buying any specific lathe. There are so many variables.
 

 In the meantime any thoughts on Ridgid WL 1200?
 

 There is one available locally for $150 which is described as "like new, never been used." Would this be a decent cheap way to get in the game and to learn what I might want or need down the road?
 

 

Something not discussed at length in this thread is tooling. What comes with the Rigid? If you get a face plate, a chuck or two, live and dead centers, turning tools... grab it! Maybe grab it anyway. Rigid is a good brand. Probably made in China but with good customer support in USA.  

 Tooling with a lathe is super important. You can easily go over the cost of the lathe with extras, especially a metal lathe. Often the whole lathe is up for sale including a lot of the expensive extra bits.
 

 

The listing doesn't specify what comes with it. If I hear back from the seller I'll find out. The post is a couple weeks old so it could be gone already. But either way, it's good to know that a Ridgid lathe wouldn't just be throwing money away.
 

 The guy I'm meeting with Sunday is a woodworker/artist, so he doesn't necessarily know the music side of things, but his advice was to get a Jet JWL-1015VS (with variable speed) 10" x 15". Anyone have any experience with Jet?
 

 

Don't know anything about wood turning lathe quality. But if you're going to eventually use it to make stuff like mouthpiece blanks and brass shank rings, you'll need a metalworking lathe, not one for wood.

Jet is a fine brand that is highly regarded among woodworkers and turners...
It's compact, versatile and not too expensive.

However, morgan is absolutely right in his last message...to do what (I
think) you want to do, you're going to need a metal lathe.

Just a reminder that you can turn wood with handtools on a metal lathe, but
you can't do it the other way around...

Your visit tomorrow will be useful in that he will speak of speeds and tool
angles...these are common variables for both types of machines that you
need to know. Prick up your ears when the conversation turns in this
direction.

Best of luck.


On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 7:44 AM, frymorgan@... [MouthpieceWork] <
MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>
>
> Don't know anything about wood turning lathe quality. But if you're going
> to eventually use it to make stuff like mouthpiece blanks and brass shank
> rings, you'll need a metalworking lathe, not one for wood.
>  
>

I've had a Jet wood lathe for years. Good stuff.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 27, 2015, at 8:23 PM, "mike@... [MouthpieceWork]" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> The listing doesn't specify what comes with it. If I hear back from the seller I'll find out. The post is a couple weeks old so it could be gone already.
> 
> But either way, it's good to know that a Ridgid lathe wouldn't just be throwing money away.
> 
> The guy I'm meeting with Sunday is a woodworker/artist, so he doesn't necessarily know the music side of things, but his advice was to get a Jet JWL-1015VS (with variable speed) 10" x 15". Anyone have any experience with Jet?
> 
> 
> 

That's what I was going to say.

Metal lathe, not woodworking.

Paul C.

Yeah........if you have a choice get a metal lathe. I'm a tool freak so I say... GET BOTH! 

 I disagree a little bit with David's comment: "Just a reminder that you can turn wood with handtools on a metal lathe, but you can't do it the other way around..."
 

 You can mess with metal on a wood lathe.... soft metals like brass, copper and aluminum and a sharp hand held cutter will work for some things. But this is hand work and you can't get the co-axial precision of a metal lathe. On the other hand you can use wood turning techniques on a metal lathe ON METAL. For example use a spear point or the edge of a parting tool to point a center in the end of a faced rod in a 3 jaw chuck. This saves the step of putting a center cutting tool in the tailstock then switching it for a drill bit. It takes some practice and confidence but it speeds up repetitive processes. 
 

 An issue for using a metal lathe for wood is the tool rest.... if you want to use wood turning tools. You'd have to make something that attaches to the cross slide or improvise. I've used the back end of a rocking style tool holder.







 
 Show message history


 

Buying a used lathe is like buying a used car, horn, mouthpiece, or anything else.  You need to know how to evaluate what you are looking at and not get emotionally blinded by your desire.  There are plenty of used metal lathe buying guides online.  Read them all.  Get the tools you need - dial/digital indicator on magnetic stand for measuring bed rail wear, for example.  Then, go evaluate all the craigslist lathes in your area, even if you are not interested in them (size/price), just to practice the evaluation process.  After you do that a few times, you will feel reasonably confident that you know what to do when something you are interesed in pops up. 

Broken gear teeth can be repaired with wedge inserts easily enough.  My first is still going flawlessly, 3 years later.  Missing or broken gears can be replaced with affordable stock gears (trimmed to thickness/bore size) from various manufacturers.  I rebuilt a 32/16 compound gear that way, bringing my screw cutting gearbox back to 100% functionality.  Cross slide nuts are inexpensive.  


     On Saturday, February 28, 2015 12:23 PM, "bill@... [MouthpieceWork]" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
   

     Yeah........if you have a choice get a metal lathe. I'm a tool freak so I say... GET BOTH!
I disagree a little bit with David's comment: "Just a reminder that you can turn wood with handtools on a metal lathe, but you can't do it the other way around..."
You can mess with metal on a wood lathe.... soft metals like brass, copper and aluminum and a sharp hand held cutter will work for some things. But this is hand work and you can't get the co-axial precision of a metal lathe. On the other hand you can use wood turning techniques on a metal lathe ON METAL. For example use a spear point or the edge of a parting tool to point a center in the end of a faced rod in a 3 jaw chuck. This saves the step of putting a center cutting tool in the tailstock then switching it for a drill bit. It takes some practice and confidence but it speeds up repetitive processes. 
An issue for using a metal lathe for wood is the tool rest.... if you want to use wood turning tools. You'd have to make something that attaches to the cross slide or improvise. I've used the back end of a rocking style tool holder.


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I was finally able to get some hands on experience with a lathe. It was a very big OneWay wood lathe. 

 We made a tenor ligature for hr mouthpieces out of holly. It looks great (especially on the outside) and it even plays too! Simply making it smooth on the inside (even at an angle to match the mouthpiece) seems reasonable to pull off "freehand." But I wanted to cut a larger diameter in the middle of the ligature leaving smaller diameter rings at the front and back of the ligature making the reed contact points. That is where we struggled a bit. Even his small curved tool was still too big for the inside work (that's what she said!).
 

 I imagine this is one case where the metal lathe wheels would come in handy, although I still can't imagine exactly the best way to do this without NC. Any suggestions? Or do I just need to practice my etch-a-sketch skills?
 

 I really enjoyed doing the work though, so I'm itching more than ever to get my hands on something.
 

 Right now I'm leaning toward a small metal lathe, but something versatile so I can still do wooden ligatures and end plugs. Maybe a Grizzly or MicroMark. If I can find one used that comes with tooling even better.
 

 I'm reading the used metal lathe buying guides now. Thanks Martin! Hopefully I'll get more answers there.