Any good tips for mouthpiece modification for a saxophonist who has trouble with the C# -2 being too sharp, while the rest of the high notes are too flat? He plays a Yamaha soprano 62R, with a Yanagisawa mouthpiece reface the opening 066 ', facing length 34,5. 
This is a top Level professional musician, which has played on several album together with musicians such as Lee Konitz and Warne Marsh.

a mouthpiece modification will not resolve that problem……the mouthpiece is not the cause of the intonation issue


On Apr 30, 2014, at 12:04 PM, efurre@... wrote:

> 
> Any good tips for mouthpiece modification for a saxophonist who has trouble with the C# -2 being too sharp, while the rest of the high notes are too flat? He plays a Yamaha soprano 62R, with a Yanagisawa mouthpiece reface the opening 066 ', facing length 34,5. 
> This is a top Level professional musician, which has played on several album together with musicians such as Lee Konitz and Warne Marsh.
> 
> 
> 

That combination is not typical of mouthpiece induced pitch problems alone.  There have to be other factors involved - octave key regulation, venting irregularities, etc., or the discription isn't entirely accurate.  Have to hear some audio to say anything.  Can you provide a listening link?
On Wednesday, April 30, 2014 11:40 AM, STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@cox.net> wrote:
 
  
a mouthpiece modification will not resolve that problem……the mouthpiece is not the cause of the intonation issue



On Apr 30, 2014, at 12:04 PM, efurre@... wrote:

  
>
>
>Any good tips for mouthpiece modification for a saxophonist who has trouble with the C# -2 being too sharp, while the rest of the high notes are too flat? He plays a Yamaha soprano 62R, with a Yanagisawa mouthpiece reface the opening 066 ', facing length 34,5. 
>This is a top Level professional musician, which has played on several album together with musicians such as Lee Konitz and Warne Marsh.
>
>

Sounds like maybe a pad height issue.   One quirky note isn't going to be the mouthpiece.

I agree -- and c# has all of the pads open


________________________________
 From: "frymorgan@..." <frymorgan@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 3:25 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano C# -2 too sharp
 


  
Sounds like maybe a pad height issue.   One quirky note isn't going to be the mouthpiece.

Yep; one for the repairer...

OP...I believe the key above the C# hole on this model is a normal key (cup
with pad)
On a subsequent model, (Custom), I'm sure Yamaha introduced a 'split' C#
key,
a 'ring' underneath the C# pad, which descends to 'cover' the C# hole when
the octave key is depressed.

I'm pretty confident that your problem lies with the lack, or adjustment
of, this ring.
With the octave key depressed, the ring should descend (not the pad cup),
with the ring 'seating' on the tone hole..

I'd call your local Yamaha Distribution Centre (where the retailers get
their instruments...it might be far...if you're in San Francisco, it may be
Los Angeles...), to seek their advice on modifying the instrument in the
way described above.
They usually have good technicians on site, and if your friend can't get to
them, they can at least advise your friend's repair technician if they have
a query...

They've advised me before...very helpful.

Good luck.

David.




On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 11:08 PM, Will Schmit <anchornm@...> wrote:

>
>
> I agree -- and c# has all of the pads open
>
>   ------------------------------
>  *From:* "frymorgan@..." <frymorgan@...>
> *To:* MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2014 3:25 PM
> *Subject:* [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano C# -2 too sharp
>
>
>  Sounds like maybe a pad height issue.   One quirky note isn't going to
> be the mouthpiece.
>
>
>   
>

the "doughnut pad" over the C# tone hole ONLY comes into play when the octave key is pressed…….the octave key is not pressed for C#2……Jeff Peterson is Yamaha's "go to" guy for saxophones, and sets up all of their endorsers horns…..he's at their facility in Orange county……he may have some ideas or experience that may help you…..he is a very valuable resource



On Apr 30, 2014, at 8:07 PM, David Smart <davidsmart64@...> wrote:

> 
> Yep; one for the repairer...
> 
> OP...I believe the key above the C# hole on this model is a normal key (cup with pad)
> On a subsequent model, (Custom), I'm sure Yamaha introduced a 'split' C# key, 
> a 'ring' underneath the C# pad, which descends to 'cover' the C# hole when the octave key is depressed.
> 
> I'm pretty confident that your problem lies with the lack, or adjustment of, this ring.
> With the octave key depressed, the ring should descend (not the pad cup), with the ring 'seating' on the tone hole..
> 
> I'd call your local Yamaha Distribution Centre (where the retailers get their instruments...it might be far...if you're in San Francisco, it may be Los Angeles...), to seek their advice on modifying the instrument in the way described above.
> They usually have good technicians on site, and if your friend can't get to them, they can at least advise your friend's repair technician if they have a query...
> 
> They've advised me before...very helpful.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> David.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 11:08 PM, Will Schmit <anchornm@...> wrote:
>  
> 
> I agree -- and c# has all of the pads open
> 
> From: "frymorgan@..." <frymorgan@yahoo.com>
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 3:25 PM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano C# -2 too sharp
> 
>  
> Sounds like maybe a pad height issue.   One quirky note isn't going to be the mouthpiece.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

My apologies Steve....I thought he meant C# 2 (second octave....with the
octave key depressed).

(but I still think it's a venting issue)




On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 2:17 AM, STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...> wrote:

>
>
> the "doughnut pad" over the C# tone hole ONLY comes into play when the
> octave key is pressed…….the octave key is not pressed for C#2……Jeff
> Peterson is Yamaha's "go to" guy for saxophones, and sets up all of their
> endorsers horns…..he's at their facility in Orange county……he may have some
> ideas or experience that may help you…..he is a very valuable resource
>
>
>
> On Apr 30, 2014, at 8:07 PM, David Smart <davidsmart64@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Yep; one for the repairer...
>
> OP...I believe the key above the C# hole on this model is a normal key
> (cup with pad)
> On a subsequent model, (Custom), I'm sure Yamaha introduced a 'split' C#
> key,
> a 'ring' underneath the C# pad, which descends to 'cover' the C# hole when
> the octave key is depressed.
>
> I'm pretty confident that your problem lies with the lack, or adjustment
> of, this ring.
> With the octave key depressed, the ring should descend (not the pad cup),
> with the ring 'seating' on the tone hole..
>
> I'd call your local Yamaha Distribution Centre (where the retailers get
> their instruments...it might be far...if you're in San Francisco, it may be
> Los Angeles...), to seek their advice on modifying the instrument in the
> way described above.
> They usually have good technicians on site, and if your friend can't get
> to them, they can at least advise your friend's repair technician if they
> have a query...
>
> They've advised me before...very helpful.
>
> Good luck.
>
> David.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 11:08 PM, Will Schmit <anchornm@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I agree -- and c# has all of the pads open
>>
>>   ------------------------------
>>  *From:* "frymorgan@..." <frymorgan@...>
>> *To:* MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2014 3:25 PM
>> *Subject:* [MouthpieceWork] Re: Soprano C# -2 too sharp
>>
>>
>>  Sounds like maybe a pad height issue.   One quirky note isn't going to
>> be the mouthpiece.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>  
>

Thank you for all the great suggestions and tips. I will give this to our local saxophone repairman, we have a great deal: I work on the mouthipieces, he does the rest of the horn. 

At the end of this video is a small clip of the sax / saxophonist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-N3oVtJLRI&list=PL02uR5tzi9XJ7XXub6v8p-10IK12_llri&feature=player_detailpage#t"0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-N3oVtJLRI&list=PL02uR5tzi9XJ7XXub6v8p-10IK12_llri&feature=player_detailpage#t"0

at 3:42

If C#2 is sharp, that is unusual.  That note, written on the third space of the treble staff, is usually flat.

If C#3 is sharp, that is common.  That note is written on the second leger line above the staff.

What is written below all depends on producing the correct embouchure pressure.

The lower register tunes by mouthpiece volume.  But the upper register tunes by both volume and LENGTH of chamber.  Using a "large chamber" mouthpiece, whether on soprano or bass saxophone, results in having to push the mouthpiece in too far, shortening the air column.  This causes the top notes to become progressively sharper, beginning sometimes as low as upper register A.

Using an extremely small chamber mouthpiece results in having to pull the mouthpiece out excessively in order to tune C2 (third space) or B2 (third line).  Then the length of the mouthpiece causes the top notes of the upper register to be flat.

The mouthpiece volume to tuned length ratio must be correct.

Some years ago I modified a Selmer soprano mouthpiece with various chamber inserts, delrin rod drilled to be tubes of various lengths and inner diameter.  The bore of the mouthpiece was drilled from the butt end to lengthen the bore into the "throat" area of the mouthpiece.  The delrin tubes would slide in from the back and become the new "throat" and some would fill back into the bore a bit.

By removing the insert altogether a large chamber mouthpiece was created.  It had to be pushed onto the cork excessively far to tune the usual concert Bb (C2) tuning note, and the top notes of the upper register were very sharp, as described earlier.

By interchanging the inserts mouthpiece volume was adjusted and a "just right" solution was found, one that had perfect C2 to C3 octaves, C# on up to high F# played easily in tune.

You can repeat this experiment yourself and confirm or disprove what I have written.  I highly suggest you do this.  "Use a large chamber mouthpiece" is often bad advice.  Like Goldilocks', it has to be "just right".

Paul C.

I suspect that the tendency to be flat in the upper register has to do with the mouthpiece to embouchure angle that the player uses.  He seems to want to point the bell up, at the conductor or audience most of the time.  The neck already has a downward bend in it, so the mouthpiece angle is extreme.
On Thursday, May 1, 2014 6:06 AM, "tenorman1952@..." <tenorman1952@...> wrote:
 
  
If C#2 is sharp, that is unusual.  That note, written on the third space of the treble staff, is usually flat.

If C#3 is sharp, that is common.  That note is written on the second leger line above the staff.

What is written below all depends on producing the correct embouchure pressure.

The lower register tunes by mouthpiece volume.  But the upper register tunes by both volume and LENGTH of chamber.  Using a "large chamber" mouthpiece, whether on soprano or bass saxophone, results in having to push the mouthpiece in too far, shortening the air column.  This causes the top notes to become progressively sharper, beginning sometimes as low as upper register A.

Using an extremely small chamber mouthpiece results in having to pull the mouthpiece out excessively in order to tune C2 (third space) or B2 (third line).  Then the length of the mouthpiece causes the top notes of the upper register to be flat.

The mouthpiece volume to tuned length ratio must be correct.

Some years ago I modified a Selmer soprano mouthpiece with various chamber inserts, delrin rod drilled to be tubes of various lengths and inner diameter.  The bore of the mouthpiece was drilled from the butt end to lengthen the bore into the "throat" area of the mouthpiece.  The delrin tubes would slide in from the back and become the new "throat" and some would fill back into the bore a bit.

By removing the insert altogether a large chamber mouthpiece was created.  It had to be pushed onto the cork excessively far to tune the usual concert Bb (C2) tuning note, and the top notes of the upper register were very sharp, as described earlier.

By interchanging the inserts mouthpiece volume was adjusted and a "just right" solution was found, one that had perfect C2 to C3 octaves, C# on up to high F# played easily in tune.

You can repeat this experiment yourself and confirm or disprove what I have written.  I highly suggest you do this.  "Use a large chamber mouthpiece" is often bad advice.  Like Goldilocks', it has to be "just right".

Paul C.

I know this is obvious, but have you verified that the player is producing the correct initial pitch on just the mouthpiece? If they're not, there is no reason to expect the horn to play in tune…..


On May 1, 2014, at 9:44 AM, MartinMods <lancelotburt@...> wrote:

> 
> I suspect that the tendency to be flat in the upper register has to do with the mouthpiece to embouchure angle that the player uses.  He seems to want to point the bell up, at the conductor or audience most of the time.  The neck already has a downward bend in it, so the mouthpiece angle is extreme.
> On Thursday, May 1, 2014 6:06 AM, "tenorman1952@..." <tenorman1952@...> wrote:
>  
> If C#2 is sharp, that is unusual.  That note, written on the third space of the treble staff, is usually flat.
> 
> If C#3 is sharp, that is common.  That note is written on the second leger line above the staff.
> 
> What is written below all depends on producing the correct embouchure pressure.
> 
> The lower register tunes by mouthpiece volume.  But the upper register tunes by both volume and LENGTH of chamber.  Using a "large chamber" mouthpiece, whether on soprano or bass saxophone, results in having to push the mouthpiece in too far, shortening the air column.  This causes the top notes to become progressively sharper, beginning sometimes as low as upper register A.
> 
> Using an extremely small chamber mouthpiece results in having to pull the mouthpiece out excessively in order to tune C2 (third space) or B2 (third line).  Then the length of the mouthpiece causes the top notes of the upper register to be flat.
> 
> The mouthpiece volume to tuned length ratio must be correct.
> 
> Some years ago I modified a Selmer soprano mouthpiece with various chamber inserts, delrin rod drilled to be tubes of various lengths and inner diameter.  The bore of the mouthpiece was drilled from the butt end to lengthen the bore into the "throat" area of the mouthpiece.  The delrin tubes would slide in from the back and become the new "throat" and some would fill back into the bore a bit.
> 
> By removing the insert altogether a large chamber mouthpiece was created.  It had to be pushed onto the cork excessively far to tune the usual concert Bb (C2) tuning note, and the top notes of the upper register were very sharp, as described earlier.
> 
> By interchanging the inserts mouthpiece volume was adjusted and a "just right" solution was found, one that had perfect C2 to C3 octaves, C# on up to high F# played easily in tune.
> 
> You can repeat this experiment yourself and confirm or disprove what I have written.  I highly suggest you do this.  "Use a large chamber mouthpiece" is often bad advice.  Like Goldilocks', it has to be "just right".
> 
> Paul C.
> 
> 
> 
> 

Actually Paul, the effects of volume and length overlap and affect each other, so the low register tunes by volume and length as well.  You can have the right volume (overblows good octave) in the low register, but if the length is wrong for the upper register, the low register pitch center will be off.

On Thursday, May 1, 2014 9:13 AM, STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@cox.net> wrote:
 
  
I know this is obvious, but have you verified that the player is producing the correct initial pitch on just the mouthpiece? If they're not, there is no reason to expect the horn to play in tune…..



On May 1, 2014, at 9:44 AM, MartinMods <lancelotburt@...> wrote:

  
>
>
>I suspect that the tendency to be flat in the upper register has to do with the mouthpiece to embouchure angle that the player uses.  He seems to want to point the bell up, at the conductor or audience most of the time.  The neck already has a downward bend in it, so the mouthpiece angle is extreme.
>On Thursday, May 1, 2014 6:06 AM, "tenorman1952@..." <tenorman1952@...> wrote:
> 
>  
>If C#2 is sharp, that is unusual.  That note, written on the third space of the treble staff, is usually flat.
>
>If C#3 is sharp, that is common.  That note is written on the second leger line above the staff.
>
>What is written below all depends on producing the correct embouchure pressure.
>
>The lower register tunes by mouthpiece volume.  But the upper register tunes by both volume and LENGTH of chamber.  Using a "large chamber" mouthpiece, whether on soprano or bass saxophone, results in having to push the mouthpiece in too far, shortening the air column.  This causes the top notes to become progressively sharper, beginning sometimes as low as upper register A.
>
>Using an extremely small chamber mouthpiece results in having to pull the mouthpiece out excessively in order to tune C2 (third space)
 or B2 (third line).  Then the length of the mouthpiece causes the top notes of the upper register to be flat.
>
>The mouthpiece volume to tuned length ratio must be correct.
>
>Some years ago I modified a Selmer soprano mouthpiece with various chamber inserts, delrin rod drilled to be tubes of various lengths and inner diameter.  The bore of the mouthpiece was drilled from the butt end to lengthen the bore into the "throat" area of the mouthpiece.  The delrin tubes would slide in from the back and become the new "throat" and some would fill back into the bore a bit.
>
>By removing the insert altogether a large chamber mouthpiece was created.  It had to be pushed onto the cork excessively far to tune the usual concert Bb (C2) tuning note, and the top notes of the upper register were very sharp, as described earlier.
>
>By interchanging the inserts mouthpiece volume was adjusted and a "just right" solution was found, one that had perfect C2 to C3 octaves, C# on up to high F# played easily in tune.
>
>You can repeat this experiment yourself and confirm or disprove what I have written.  I highly suggest you do this.  "Use a large chamber mouthpiece" is often bad advice.  Like Goldilocks', it has to be "just right".
>
>Paul C.
>
>
>
>

 

---In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Actually Paul, the effects of volume and length overlap and affect each other, so the low register tunes by volume and length as well.  You can have the right volume (overblows good octave) in the low register, but if the length is wrong for the upper register, the low register pitch center will be off.
 

Yes, but the effect of length vs. chamber volume on pitch is much greater in the upper register.

Paul C.
 
 

Yamaha's generally are amazingly in tune…..I'll bet the problem lies with the player producing the wrong initial pitch….garbage in = garbage out

Initial pitch is almost always overlooked



On May 2, 2014, at 8:09 AM, <tenorman1952@...> wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> ---In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, <lancelotburt@...> wrote :
> 
> Actually Paul, the effects of volume and length overlap and affect each other, so the low register tunes by volume and length as well.  You can have the right volume (overblows good octave) in the low register, but if the length is wrong for the upper register, the low register pitch center will be off.
> 
> 
> Yes, but the effect of length vs. chamber volume on pitch is much greater in the upper register.
> 
> Paul C.
> 
> 
> 

 

---In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Actually Paul, the effects of volume and length overlap and affect each other, so the low register tunes by volume and length as well.  You can have the right volume (overblows good octave) in the low register, but if the length is wrong for the upper register, the low register pitch center will be off.
 

Yes, but the effect of chamber length upon pitch is much greater in the low register.  Try the experiment I described.  By obtaining the correct ratio of length to volume you can bring octaves right in tune.  As chamber volume goes up, the top end of the upper register becomes sharp in relation to the low register.  The opposite happens when the chamber volume is made smaller.

Paul C.