I recently have been trying out a Runyon Custom tenor mouthpiece, and
(similar to what I found on a soprano Custom) the intonation feels very
unstable.

In the case of the soprano, I thought the issue was a rather wide facing and
soft reed combination. Intonation on soprano can be a challenge anyway.

But on the tenor, I get the same sensation - unlike any other mouthpiece on
tenor I've played. Intonation feels "wobbly". This is with a relatively
narrow facing (Custom #6) and a number 3 Fibracell, using the spoiler.

What's going on here?


Barry
Www.bopkick.com

You call it instability; others might call it flexibility.


Bill Hausmann


If you have to mic a saxophone, the rest of the band is TOO LOUD!


________________________________
 From: Barry Levine <barrylevine@norwoodlight.com>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, June 4, 2012 8:40 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Intonation instability on Runyon Custom
  
I recently have been trying out a Runyon Custom tenor mouthpiece, and
(similar to what I found on a soprano Custom) the intonation feels very
unstable.

In the case of the soprano, I thought the issue was a rather wide facing and
soft reed combination. Intonation on soprano can be a challenge anyway.

But on the tenor, I get the same sensation - unlike any other mouthpiece on
tenor I've played. Intonation feels "wobbly". This is with a relatively
narrow facing (Custom #6) and a number 3 Fibracell, using the spoiler.

What's going on here?


Barry
Www.bopkick.com



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i may be wrong, but IMHO there is an interaction between the strength  
of the reed, the facing length and the opening and chamber volume.
i´m not sure, how long the facing on runyons is in particular, but  
maybe the problem is to solve by choosing a wide tip opening with a  
short facing and a relatively soft reed.
this should provide the more directed feel of a shorter facing  
without sacrificing the "buzz" in the sound, you´re obviously after.
the larger opening should give enogh flexibility for expressive  
purposes, assuming the volume of the chamber  to your saxophone is  
correct.

maybe it could help to try the mouthpiece you have with harder cane  
reeds (maybe 3 1/2 to 4, depending on brand) to find the reason for  
wobbling on your current combination.

regards

n




Am 05.06.2012 um 03:40 schrieb Barry Levine:

> I recently have been trying out a Runyon Custom tenor mouthpiece, and
> (similar to what I found on a soprano Custom) the intonation feels  
> very
> unstable.
>
> In the case of the soprano, I thought the issue was a rather wide  
> facing and
> soft reed combination. Intonation on soprano can be a challenge  
> anyway.
>
> But on the tenor, I get the same sensation - unlike any other  
> mouthpiece on
> tenor I've played. Intonation feels "wobbly". This is with a  
> relatively
> narrow facing (Custom #6) and a number 3 Fibracell, using the spoiler.
>
> What's going on here?
>
> Barry
> Www.bopkick.com
>
> 

NikolaosAfentulidis
www.afentulidis.com
okin@...
+43 6991 463 25 24

It's not called a "spoiler" for no reason:-)

--- On Tue, 6/5/12, Barry Levine <barrylevine@...> wrote:

From: Barry Levine <barrylevine@norwoodlight.com>
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Intonation instability on Runyon Custom
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, June 5, 2012, 1:40 AM








 



  


    
      
      
      I recently have been trying out a Runyon Custom tenor mouthpiece, and

(similar to what I found on a soprano Custom) the intonation feels very

unstable.



In the case of the soprano, I thought the issue was a rather wide facing and

soft reed combination. Intonation on soprano can be a challenge anyway.



But on the tenor, I get the same sensation - unlike any other mouthpiece on

tenor I've played. Intonation feels "wobbly". This is with a relatively

narrow facing (Custom #6) and a number 3 Fibracell, using the spoiler.



What's going on here?



Barry

Www.bopkick.com





    
     

    
    






  

I play Customs on all my horns and so do my sons.  We have never experienced what you describe.  On my Bari with the spoiler in I did have trouble controlling it, but I found that there was a leak in the upper stack.  Once that was fixed, I no longer had an issue.

FWTW, I play an Custom 12 (.114) on Bari and a Custom 8 (.086) on Alto.  Tenor I play an SR 8 (.094) but I need that one opened one of these days.


Jim Moncher
Colorado Springs, CO 
 
719.268.0834 (H)

719.331.3706 (M)


"Without jazz, what would music be? But without the sax, what would jazz be? It's jazz that ensured the success of the sax, and vice versa"

"The pros do not strip the lacquer off their instruments. They wear it off playing their fingers off umpteen hours a day, year after year. Go Thou and do likewise."



________________________________
 From: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2012 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Intonation instability on Runyon Custom
 

  
It's not called a "spoiler" for no reason:-)

--- On Tue, 6/5/12, Barry Levine <barrylevine@...> wrote:


>From: Barry Levine <barrylevine@...>
>Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Intonation instability on Runyon Custom
>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Tuesday, June 5, 2012, 1:40 AM
>
>
>  
>I recently have been trying out a Runyon Custom tenor mouthpiece, and
>(similar to what I found on a soprano Custom) the intonation feels very
>unstable.
>
>In the case of the soprano, I thought the issue was a rather wide facing and
>soft reed combination. Intonation on soprano can be a challenge anyway.
>
>But on the tenor, I get the same sensation - unlike any other mouthpiece on
>tenor I've played. Intonation feels "wobbly". This is with a relatively
>narrow facing (Custom #6) and a number 3 Fibracell, using the spoiler.
>
>What's going on here?
>
>Barry
>Www.bopkick.com
>
> 
 

I've played Customs for many years on all of my saxes.  They are quite flexible in pitch, but not unstable.  The center of pitch is quite good in my experience.  The ability to bend the pitch is essential in jazz.

The Spoiler is interesting in that it acts as a long baffle without taking up much chamber volume, thereby retaining good intonation that would be lost with a small chamber piece.  The wedge does take up a tad of mouthpiece volume so the mouthpiece must be pulled out a tiny bit, about 1 mm on soprano (less on the other saxes), as compared to no Spoiler.  It does increase the overtones in the 1500-3000 hz range, right where the ear is most sensitive, and I have graphs showing this, with and without Spoiler.

As Jim pointed out, if you have any leaks a brighter mouthpiece, Custom or any other similar piece, will bring that out.  The pad must seal.  But at the same time this is what makes altissimo easier.

Paul Coats

Barry,

I listened to your BopKick mp3 downloads.  Very nice.   Developing the finely focused, mature tenor sound that you have, and using it throughout the full range of the instrument in the refined manner that you do, requires some considerable note voicing skills.  You are obviously very aware of your tonal center as well as your pitch center, using whatever mouthpiece you recorded with there.  

If you switch to a mouthpiece that has a considerably different volume/frequency relationship to your horn, all of a sudden the tonal center and the pitch center for many notes will be in a different place, to varying degrees.  The sensitive player may feel disoriented as they have to search for the vocal tract voicing that gives them the tonal center they want while at the same time, that tonal searching causes the pitch to vary.  It can take some time to co-ordinate the embouchure and the vocal tract to realize both tonal and pitch centers over the entire horn, instantly, and completely under subconscious control.  

A less sophisticated player who only wants a "characteristic" saxophone sound and is oblivious to those refinements, may have no problem making the same mouthpiece change.  

Some horn, mouthpiece, reed, player combinations are less compatible than others at that level of artistry.  It doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with the mouthpiece, in itself.

Lance



--- On Tue, 6/5/12, Barry Levine <barrylevine@norwoodlight.com> wrote:

From: Barry Levine <barrylevine@...>
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Intonation instability on Runyon Custom
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, June 5, 2012, 1:40 AM








 



  


    
      
      
      I recently have been trying out a Runyon Custom tenor mouthpiece, and

(similar to what I found on a soprano Custom) the intonation feels very

unstable.



In the case of the soprano, I thought the issue was a rather wide facing and

soft reed combination. Intonation on soprano can be a challenge anyway.



But on the tenor, I get the same sensation - unlike any other mouthpiece on

tenor I've played. Intonation feels "wobbly". This is with a relatively

narrow facing (Custom #6) and a number 3 Fibracell, using the spoiler.



What's going on here?



Barry

Www.bopkick.com





    
     

    
    






  

MartinMods  schrieb:

>It's not called a "spoiler" for no reason:-)
>
>--- On Tue, 6/5/12, Barry Levine  wrote:
>
>From: Barry Levine 
>Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Intonation instability on Runyon Custom
>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Tuesday, June 5, 2012, 1:40 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>    
>      
>      
>      I recently have been trying out a Runyon Custom tenor mouthpiece, and
>
>(similar to what I found on a soprano Custom) the intonation feels very
>
>unstable.
>
>
>
>In the case of the soprano, I thought the issue was a rather wide facing and
>
>soft reed combination. Intonation on soprano can be a challenge anyway.
>
>
>
>But on the tenor, I get the same sensation - unlike any other mouthpiece on
>
>tenor I've played. Intonation feels "wobbly". This is with a relatively
>
>narrow facing (Custom #6) and a number 3 Fibracell, using the spoiler.
>
>
>
>What's going on here?
>
>
>
>Barry
>
>Www.bopkick.com
>
>
>
>
>
>    
>     
>
>    
>    
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>

Thanks for the nice comments, Lance

After years of playing almost exclusively tenor & soprano, I have played
mostly alto for the past year. This changed things for me as a player.

A old Selmer Soloist C* with a baffle and a 3.5-4 reed played so well that
I had to change my tenor setup (which felt sluggish and faced too wide in
comparison); and I'm still trying different things, altho I seem to have
settled on a Selmer S80-D, also with added baffle.

Interestingly, I find some irregularities in the facing curve on this
piece - but since it plays pretty well, I'm reluctant to try to "improve"
it.

Barry


> Barry,
>
> I listened to your BopKick mp3 downloads.� Very nice.  Developing the
> finely focused, mature tenor sound that you have, and using it throughout
> the full range of the instrument in the refined manner that you do,
> requires some considerable note voicing skills.� You are obviously very
> aware of your tonal center as well as your pitch center, using whatever
> mouthpiece you recorded with there.�
>
> If you switch to a mouthpiece that has a considerably different
> volume/frequency relationship to your horn, all of a sudden the tonal
> center and the pitch center for many notes will be in a different place,
> to varying degrees.� The sensitive player may feel disoriented as they
> have to search for the vocal tract voicing that gives them the tonal
> center they want while at the same time, that tonal searching causes the
> pitch to vary.� It can take some time to co-ordinate the embouchure and
> the vocal tract to realize both tonal and pitch centers over the entire
> horn, instantly, and completely under subconscious control.�
>
> A less sophisticated player who only wants a "characteristic" saxophone
> sound and is oblivious to those refinements, may have no problem making
> the same mouthpiece change.�
>
> Some horn, mouthpiece, reed, player combinations are less compatible than
> others at that level of artistry.� It doesn't mean that there is anything
> wrong with the mouthpiece, in itself.
>
> Lance
>
>
>
> --- On Tue, 6/5/12, Barry Levine <barrylevine@...> wrote:
>
> From: Barry Levine <barrylevine@...>
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Intonation instability on Runyon Custom
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, June 5, 2012, 1:40 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       I recently have been trying out a Runyon Custom tenor mouthpiece,
> and
>
> (similar to what I found on a soprano Custom) the intonation feels very
>
> unstable.
>
>
>
> In the case of the soprano, I thought the issue was a rather wide facing
> and
>
> soft reed combination. Intonation on soprano can be a challenge anyway.
>
>
>
> But on the tenor, I get the same sensation - unlike any other mouthpiece
> on
>
> tenor I've played. Intonation feels "wobbly". This is with a relatively
>
> narrow facing (Custom #6) and a number 3 Fibracell, using the spoiler.
>
>
>
> What's going on here?
>
>
>
> Barry
>
> Www.bopkick.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Have you always used Fibracell on tenor?



--- On Fri, 6/8/12, Barry Levine <barrylevine@...> wrote:

From: Barry Levine <barrylevine@norwoodlight.com>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Intonation instability on Runyon Custom
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, June 8, 2012, 10:59 PM
















 



  


    
      
      
      Thanks for the nice comments, Lance



After years of playing almost exclusively tenor & soprano, I have played

mostly alto for the past year. This changed things for me as a player.



A old Selmer Soloist C* with a baffle and a 3.5-4 reed played so well that

I had to change my tenor setup (which felt sluggish and faced too wide in

comparison); and I'm still trying different things, altho I seem to have

settled on a Selmer S80-D, also with added baffle.



Interestingly, I find some irregularities in the facing curve on this

piece - but since it plays pretty well, I'm reluctant to try to "improve"

it.



Barry



> Barry,

>

> I listened to your BopKick mp3 downloads.  Very nice.  Developing the

> finely focused, mature tenor sound that you have, and using it throughout

> the full range of the instrument in the refined manner that you do,

> requires some considerable note voicing skills.  You are obviously very

> aware of your tonal center as well as your pitch center, using whatever

> mouthpiece you recorded with there. 

>

> If you switch to a mouthpiece that has a considerably different

> volume/frequency relationship to your horn, all of a sudden the tonal

> center and the pitch center for many notes will be in a different place,

> to varying degrees.  The sensitive player may feel disoriented as they

> have to search for the vocal tract voicing that gives them the tonal

> center they want while at the same time, that tonal searching causes the

> pitch to vary.  It can take some time to co-ordinate the embouchure and

> the vocal tract to realize both tonal and pitch centers over the entire

> horn, instantly, and completely under subconscious control. 

>

> A less sophisticated player who only wants a "characteristic" saxophone

> sound and is oblivious to those refinements, may have no problem making

> the same mouthpiece change. 

>

> Some horn, mouthpiece, reed, player combinations are less compatible than

> others at that level of artistry.  It doesn't mean that there is anything

> wrong with the mouthpiece, in itself.

>

> Lance

>

>

>

> --- On Tue, 6/5/12, Barry Levine <barrylevine@...> wrote:

>

> From: Barry Levine <barrylevine@...>

> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Intonation instability on Runyon Custom

> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com

> Date: Tuesday, June 5, 2012, 1:40 AM

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>  

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>       I recently have been trying out a Runyon Custom tenor mouthpiece,

> and

>

> (similar to what I found on a soprano Custom) the intonation feels very

>

> unstable.

>

>

>

> In the case of the soprano, I thought the issue was a rather wide facing

> and

>

> soft reed combination. Intonation on soprano can be a challenge anyway.

>

>

>

> But on the tenor, I get the same sensation - unlike any other mouthpiece

> on

>

> tenor I've played. Intonation feels "wobbly". This is with a relatively

>

> narrow facing (Custom #6) and a number 3 Fibracell, using the spoiler.

>

>

>

> What's going on here?

>

>

>

> Barry

>

> Www.bopkick.com

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>





    
     

    
    






  

on 6/8/12 7:47 PM, MartinMods at lancelotburt@... wrote:

> Have you always used Fibracell on tenor?
> 
For something like at least the last 8 years, I think. I loved them at
first, but over the past few years, they gradually became less and less
satisfactory on tenor. I don't know if the reeds changed or my embouchure
changed, or both.

On alto, I have recently found Fibracells play quite well.

And, oddly, I now that find Fibracell tenor reeds are fairly good on tenor
- playing on an S80 now, not a Ponzol M2 as formerly (what you hear on the
mp3s). 

As far as reeds go, I have a Hahn glass-fiber tenor reed that totally kicks
the ass of any Fibracell, on any mouthpiece. It's a pity these are no longer
available.

Barry