Hello boys and girls
Let's talk about important details of the Mouthpieces.
I'm trying to understand certain relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities and materials. Some more successfully than others.
In the following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I probably know more about it?
I hope an interesting start, going from part to whole to understand based on our own experience the different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a rule.
Thanks to all
Silverio
From Patagonia Argentina

First of all let me say that i am not an expert in the field of mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer

I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play worse!!! - but then that is often how we learn.

The m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical elements combine to make your instrument speak.

Would someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very end of the m/p the tip edge.

If when sanding the curve too much material is removed the tip becomes a knife edge.  Is it then necessary to sand/file the edge to  put an edge of 1mm or so onto the tip end.

Best Wishes to All
Peter Hepplewhite
England UK



--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:
>
> Hello boys and girls
> Let's talk about important details of the Mouthpieces.
> I'm trying to understand certain relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities and materials. Some more successfully than others.
> In the following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I probably know more about it?
> I hope an interesting start, going from part to whole to understand based on our own experience the different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a rule.
> Thanks to all
> Silverio
> From Patagonia Argentina
>

Hi Silverio,
3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight lines. Well... at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back and forth inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip area, that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip and baffle area. Good rails will do the rest.
All the best,

Dan

project designer
hsm-masterpiece.com

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004" <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First of all let me say that i am not an expert in the field of mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer
> 
> I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play worse!!! - but then that is often how we learn.
> 
> The m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical elements combine to make your instrument speak.
> 
> Would someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very end of the m/p the tip edge.
> 
> If when sanding the curve too much material is removed the tip becomes a knife edge.  Is it then necessary to sand/file the edge to  put an edge of 1mm or so onto the tip end.
> 
> Best Wishes to All
> Peter Hepplewhite
> England UK
> 
> 
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello boys and girls
> > Let's talk about important details of the Mouthpieces.
> > I'm trying to understand certain relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities and materials. Some more successfully than others.
> > In the following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I probably know more about it?
> > I hope an interesting start, going from part to whole to understand based on our own experience the different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a rule.
> > Thanks to all
> > Silverio
> > From Patagonia Argentina
> >
>

This html message parsed with html2text ---------------------------**_>>There is nothing jumping back and forth inside a mouthpiece._**

****

**I am not a physicist, but my take on what is going on inside the air column,
is that a when air enters and the reed closes off, a suction wave heads down
the tube until it reaches an open hole (not the register or octave key which
is too small) and disperses, sending a pressure wave back up the tube, which
opens the reed for another cycle. During the 'open reed' portion, the mouth
chamber also affects the overtones in the cycle. The length of the tube gives
the pitch because of the time it takes for the cycle to happen.**

**Maybe some more knowledgeable members can confirm/correct my understanding
of what is going on.**

******Thanks, KenL**

  
  
Sep 2, 2011 09:03:39 AM, MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com wrote:  

> Hi Silverio,  
> 3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight lines. Well... at least
> they should not. There is nothing jumping back and forth inside a
> mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip area, that's all. Pay as
> much attention you can to optimize the tip and baffle area. Good rails will
> do the rest.  
> All the best,  
>  
> Dan  
>  
> project designer  
> hsm- masterpiece.com  
>  
> \\--- In [MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com](), "pjhmusic2004" wrote:  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> > First of all let me say that i am not an expert in the field of
> mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer  
> >  
> > I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play worse!!! - but
> then that is often how we learn.  
> >  
> > The m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical
> elements combine to make your instrument speak.  
> >  
> > Would someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very
> end of the m/p the tip edge.  
> >  
> > If when sanding the curve too much material is removed the tip becomes a
> knife edge. Is it then necessary to sand/file the edge to put an edge of 1mm
> or so onto the tip end.  
> >  
> > Best Wishes to All  
> > Peter Hepplewhite  
> > England UK  
> >  
> >  
> >  
> > \\--- In [MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com](), Silverio Potenza wrote:  
> > >  
> > > Hello boys and girls  
> > > Let's talk about important details of the Mouthpieces.  
> > > I'm trying to understand certain relationships in the various designs
> and solutions that I have seen in the daily practice of intervening on
> Mouthpieces different qualities and materials. Some more successfully than
> others.  
> > > In the following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of
> resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I
> probably know more about it?  
> > > I hope an interesting start, going from part to whole to understand
> based on our own experience the different responses by the mouthpiece on the
> basis of our interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a
> rule.  
> > > Thanks to all  
> > > Silverio  
> > > From Patagonia Argentina  
> > >  
> >  
>  
>

Hi Dan:
I have seen your mpcs at hsm, what a great look they have!
Congratulations

2011/9/2 <Letydan@...>

> **
>
>
> Hi Silverio,
> 3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight lines. Well... at least
> they should not. There is nothing jumping back and forth inside a
> mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip area, that's all. Pay as
> much attention you can to optimize the tip and baffle area. Good rails will
> do the rest.
> All the best,
>
> Dan
>
> project designer
> hsm-masterpiece.com
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004" <peterhepplewhite@...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > First of all let me say that i am not an expert in the field of
> mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer
> >
> > I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play worse!!! - but
> then that is often how we learn.
> >
> > The m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical
> elements combine to make your instrument speak.
> >
> > Would someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very
> end of the m/p the tip edge.
> >
> > If when sanding the curve too much material is removed the tip becomes a
> knife edge. Is it then necessary to sand/file the edge to put an edge of 1mm
> or so onto the tip end.
> >
> > Best Wishes to All
> > Peter Hepplewhite
> > England UK
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello boys and girls
> > > Let's talk about important details of the Mouthpieces.
> > > I'm trying to understand certain relationships in the various designs
> and solutions that I have seen in the daily practice of intervening on
> Mouthpieces different qualities and materials. Some more successfully than
> others.
> > > In the following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of
> resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I
> probably know more about it?
> > > I hope an interesting start, going from part to whole to understand
> based on our own experience the different responses by the mouthpiece on the
> basis of our interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a
> rule.
> > > Thanks to all
> > > Silverio
> > > From Patagonia Argentina
> > >
> >
>
>  
>

Hi Dan, thanks for your observation. I just graphics or pictures to motivate those who have more precise information to clarify some information that goes through the web. Logically sound waves can not and should be represented by straight lines, but we must also address how fast these waves old, there is an implicit relationship between air flow and velocity of the incident on the movement of the rod, which transforms fluejo in the sound wave. The higher the wave velocity (ie in the acute) occurs most righteous of the wave. Or am I wrong? 
regards 
Silverio


________________________________
De: "Letydan@..." <Letydan@...>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 10:03
Asunto: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all


  
Hi Silverio,
3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight lines. Well... at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back and forth inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip area, that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip and baffle area. Good rails will do the rest.
All the best,

Dan

project designer
hsm-masterpiece.com

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004" <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First of all let me say that i am not an expert in the field of mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer
> 
> I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play worse!!! - but then that is often how we learn.
> 
> The m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical elements combine to make your instrument speak.
> 
> Would someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very end of the m/p the tip edge.
> 
> If when sanding the curve too much material is removed the tip becomes a knife edge. Is it then necessary to sand/file the edge to put an edge of 1mm or so onto the tip end.
> 
> Best Wishes to All
> Peter Hepplewhite
> England UK
> 
> 
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello boys and girls
> > Let's talk about important details of the Mouthpieces.
> > I'm trying to understand certain relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities and materials. Some more successfully than others.
> > In the following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I probably know more about it?
> > I hope an interesting start, going from part to whole to understand based on our own experience the different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a rule.
> > Thanks to all
> > Silverio
> > From Patagonia Argentina
> >
>

While there is a jet of air entering the mouthpiece while the reed is open, that brief jet of moving air dissipates after about the first 1/2 inch, so, we can really forget about it after that.  What is important to realize is, the air moves relatively very little.  It is the resultant energy moving from air molecule to air molecule that makes the sound.  

In the saxophone (conical air columns) this high pressure energy pulse travels the length of the tube and reflects at the open end (or open tone hole) with an inversion - it becomes a low pressure pulse.  Other than the inversion, there is very little change to the shape of the pulse.  It travels back up the air column to the mouthpiece chamber, where the low pressure allows the reed to close (completely or close to it).  Due to the nature of conical air columns and the volume of the mouthpiece, there is a little delay before the pulse reflects at the reed, and it does so with another inversion.   It becomes a high pressure pulse again, and the reed opens, commencing a new cycle of the wave, reinforced by the new air jet's energy entering the mouthpiece.  

For the saxophone to work at all, the shape of the reflected pulse at the reed must closely resemble the shape of the energy pulse generated by the air jet entering the mouthpiece chamber.  It must arrive (from double tube transit) and reflect without significant distortion.  The closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer blowing the tone.  Add distortion, and the sound becomes weaker for the same amount of input energy.  We experience resistance.  Excessive distortion, and the reed will just stay closed.

So what mouthpiece characteristics cause distortion?  Wrong mouthpiece volume.  Wrong mouthpiece frequency.    Baffle shapes that generate pulses that are not sympathetic with the air column's resonance structure i.e., the air column can not conduct the pulse without distortion.  Any sharp edge or significant bore irregularity (e.g., a sharp window/ramp edge) will cause turbulence, which will create a distortion in the pulse.  




--- On Fri, 9/2/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:

From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 5:29 PM







 



  


    
      
      
      Hi Dan, thanks for your observation. I just graphics or pictures to motivate those who have more precise information to clarify some information that goes through the web. Logically sound waves can not and should be represented by straight lines, but we must also address how fast these waves old, there is an implicit relationship between air flow and velocity of the incident on the movement of the rod, which transforms fluejo in the sound wave. The higher the wave velocity (ie in the acute) occurs most righteous of the wave. Or am I wrong?
 regards
 Silverio
De: "Letydan@..." <Letydan@...>
Para:
 MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 10:03
Asunto: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all














 
 



    
      
      
      Hi Silverio,

3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight lines. Well... at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back and forth inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip area, that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip and baffle area. Good rails will do the rest.

All the best,



Dan



project designer

hsm-masterpiece.com



--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004" <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:

>

> 

> 

> 

> 

> First of all let me say that i am not an expert in the field of mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer

> 

> I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play worse!!! - but then that is often how we learn.

> 

> The m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical elements combine to make your instrument speak.

> 

> Would someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very end of the m/p the tip edge.

> 

> If when sanding the curve too much material is removed the tip becomes a knife edge.  Is it then necessary to sand/file the edge to  put an edge of 1mm or so onto the tip end.

> 

> Best Wishes to All

> Peter Hepplewhite

> England UK

> 

> 

> 

> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@> wrote:

> >

> > Hello boys and girls

> > Let's talk about important details of the Mouthpieces.

> > I'm trying to understand certain relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities and materials. Some more successfully than others.

> > In the following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I probably know more about it?

> > I hope an interesting start, going from part to whole to understand based on our own experience the different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a rule.

> > Thanks to all

> > Silverio

> > From Patagonia Argentina

> >

>





    
     



 









    
     

    
    


 



  

Hello MartinMods, clear your explanation. Something is consistent with my drawings, apparently yes, if I understood there would be a backflow of air into, but not the sound? How important would then be the oral or buccal cavity of the player? as part of such molecular changes as I understand your writing. 
Thank you for participating 
Silverio 



________________________________
De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 18:36
Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all


  
While there is a jet of air entering the mouthpiece while the reed is open, that brief jet of moving air dissipates after about the first 1/2 inch, so, we can really forget about it after that.  What is important to realize is, the air moves relatively very little.  It is the resultant energy moving from air molecule to air molecule that makes the sound.  

In the saxophone (conical air columns) this high pressure energy pulse travels the length of the tube and reflects at the open end (or open tone hole) with an inversion - it becomes a low pressure pulse.  Other than the inversion, there is very little change to the shape of the pulse.  It travels back up the air column to the mouthpiece chamber, where the low pressure allows the reed to close (completely or close to it).  Due to the nature of conical air columns and the volume of the mouthpiece, there is a little delay before the pulse reflects at the reed, and it does so with another inversion.   It becomes a high pressure pulse again, and the reed opens, commencing a new cycle of the wave, reinforced by the new air jet's energy entering the mouthpiece.  

For the saxophone to work at all, the shape of the reflected pulse at the reed must closely resemble the shape of the energy pulse generated by the air jet entering the mouthpiece chamber.  It must arrive (from double tube transit) and reflect without significant distortion.  The closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer blowing the tone.  Add distortion, and the sound becomes weaker for the same amount of input energy.  We experience resistance.  Excessive distortion, and the reed will just stay closed.

So what mouthpiece characteristics cause distortion?  Wrong mouthpiece volume.  Wrong mouthpiece frequency.    Baffle shapes that generate pulses that are not sympathetic with the air column's resonance structure i.e., the air column can not conduct the pulse without distortion.  Any sharp edge or significant bore irregularity (e.g., a sharp window/ramp edge) will cause turbulence, which will create a distortion in the pulse.  




--- On Fri, 9/2/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:


>From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 5:29 PM
>
>
>  
>Hi Dan, thanks for your observation. I just graphics or pictures to motivate those who have more precise information to clarify some information that goes through the web. Logically sound waves can not and should be represented by straight lines, but we must also address how fast these waves old, there is an implicit relationship between air flow and velocity of the incident on the movement of the rod, which transforms fluejo in the sound wave. The higher the wave velocity (ie in the acute) occurs most righteous of the wave. Or am I wrong?
>regards
>Silverio
>
>
>________________________________
>De: "Letydan@libero.it" <Letydan@...>
>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 10:03
>Asunto: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>
>
>  
>Hi Silverio,
>3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight lines. Well... at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back and forth inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip area, that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip and baffle area. Good rails will do the rest.
>All the best,
>
>Dan
>
>project designer
>hsm-masterpiece.com
>
>--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004" <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> First of all let me say that i am not an expert in the field of mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer
>> 
>> I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play worse!!! - but then that is often how we learn.
>> 
>> The m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical elements combine to make your instrument speak.
>> 
>> Would someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very end of the m/p the tip edge.
>> 
>> If when sanding the curve too much material is removed the tip becomes a knife edge. Is it then necessary to sand/file the edge to put an edge of 1mm or so onto the tip end.
>> 
>> Best Wishes to All
>> Peter Hepplewhite
>> England UK
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello boys and girls
>> > Let's talk about important details of the Mouthpieces.
>> > I'm trying to understand certain relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities and materials. Some more successfully than others.
>> > In the following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I probably know more about it?
>> > I hope an interesting start, going from part to whole to understand based on our own experience the different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a rule.
>> > Thanks to all
>> > Silverio
>> > From Patagonia Argentina
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> 

I'm interested in Lance's assertion that the "shape" of the pulse is important. What is this shape? I've never heard anything like this before. My understanding is the original "puff", as Benade calls it, becomes a wavefront which travels down the tube and back, as Lance says, to be reinforced by the next "puff" when it reaches the mpc tip. Since the reed is controlled by the air pressure in the tube, the timing can't help but be correct if the standing wave is created. The reed cycle is determined by the wave cycle (for the most part). 

What exactly, Lance, do you mean by "distortion"? What does it mean that the closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer-blowing the tone? It has always been my understanding that this is largely determined by the impedances of the tube, so how can the returning pulse, having traveled the length of the tube (whatever the impedance graph looks like) have a "shape" like the impulse coming from the reed tip? This explanation makes no sense to me. I had always thought we get stronger, freer-blowing tone when the impedances maxima of the tube are in close to harmonic ratios.

Benade states that baffle adjustments affect the tone by changing the way the reed moves when it is nearly closed--it has to do with Bernoulli forces which act on the reed as the space between reed and facing gets narrower. This kind of behavior has nothing to do with the returning pulse, rather it is aerodynamically determined by the pressure differential on the two sides of the reed and how it develops as the reed closes.

Research has shown that the oral cavity does act as an upstream resonator, but its main effects in controlling reed behavior are in special cases, such as pitch bending, bugling, and in the altissimo range. There appears to be very little effect in aligning resonances between the oral cavity and a significant frequency being played, at least according to research carried out at UNSW.

Toby
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Silverio Potenza 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:09 PM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all


    
  Hello MartinMods, clear your explanation. Something is consistent with my drawings, apparently yes, if I understood there would be a backflow of air into, but not the sound? How important would then be the oral or buccal cavity of the player? as part of such molecular changes as I understand your writing.
  Thank you for participating
  Silverio




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
  Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
  Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 18:36
  Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all


    
        While there is a jet of air entering the mouthpiece while the reed is open, that brief jet of moving air dissipates after about the first 1/2 inch, so, we can really forget about it after that.  What is important to realize is, the air moves relatively very little.  It is the resultant energy moving from air molecule to air molecule that makes the sound.  

        In the saxophone (conical air columns) this high pressure energy pulse travels the length of the tube and reflects at the open end (or open tone hole) with an inversion - it becomes a low pressure pulse.  Other than the inversion, there is very little change to the shape of the pulse.  It travels back up the air column to the mouthpiece chamber, where the low pressure allows the reed to close (completely or close to it).  Due to the nature of conical air columns and the volume of the mouthpiece, there is a little delay before the pulse reflects at the reed, and it does so with another inversion.   It becomes a high pressure pulse again, and the reed opens, commencing a new cycle of the wave, reinforced by the new air jet's energy entering the mouthpiece.  

        For the saxophone to work at all, the shape of the reflected pulse at the reed must closely resemble the shape of the energy pulse generated by the air jet entering the mouthpiece chamber.  It must arrive (from double tube transit) and reflect without significant distortion.  The closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer blowing the tone.  Add distortion, and the sound becomes weaker for the same amount of input energy.  We experience resistance.  Excessive distortion, and the reed will just stay closed.

        So what mouthpiece characteristics cause distortion?  Wrong mouthpiece volume.  Wrong mouthpiece frequency.    Baffle shapes that generate pulses that are not sympathetic with the air column's resonance structure i.e., the air column can not conduct the pulse without distortion.  Any sharp edge or significant bore irregularity (e.g., a sharp window/ramp edge) will cause turbulence, which will create a distortion in the pulse.  




        --- On Fri, 9/2/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:


          From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
          Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
          To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 5:29 PM


            
          Hi Dan, thanks for your observation. I just graphics or pictures to motivate those who have more precise information to clarify some information that goes through the web. Logically sound waves can not and should be represented by straight lines, but we must also address how fast these waves old, there is an implicit relationship between air flow and velocity of the incident on the movement of the rod, which transforms fluejo in the sound wave. The higher the wave velocity (ie in the acute) occurs most righteous of the wave. Or am I wrong?
          regards
          Silverio



----------------------------------------------------------------------
          De: "Letydan@..." <Letydan@...>
          Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
          Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 10:03
          Asunto: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all


            
          Hi Silverio,
          3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight lines. Well... at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back and forth inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip area, that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip and baffle area. Good rails will do the rest.
          All the best,

          Dan

          project designer
          hsm-masterpiece.com

          --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004" <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:
          >
          > 
          > 
          > 
          > 
          > First of all let me say that i am not an expert in the field of mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer
          > 
          > I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play worse!!! - but then that is often how we learn.
          > 
          > The m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical elements combine to make your instrument speak.
          > 
          > Would someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very end of the m/p the tip edge.
          > 
          > If when sanding the curve too much material is removed the tip becomes a knife edge. Is it then necessary to sand/file the edge to put an edge of 1mm or so onto the tip end.
          > 
          > Best Wishes to All
          > Peter Hepplewhite
          > England UK
          > 
          > 
          > 
          > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello boys and girls
          > > Let's talk about important details of the Mouthpieces.
          > > I'm trying to understand certain relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities and materials. Some more successfully than others.
          > > In the following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I probably know more about it?
          > > I hope an interesting start, going from part to whole to understand based on our own experience the different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a rule.
          > > Thanks to all
          > > Silverio
          > > From Patagonia Argentina
          > >
          >





       






  

Very interesting development of your concepts Lance.
I have a question I will try to develop a "trial and error" coming soon. What if from the tip of the deflector or baffle with some micrometer channel along said tip begins to close (closer to the rod) from 1 cm from the tip, with an initial length from that cm from the tip to the end of the curve. Got it?
regards
Silverio



________________________________
De: Toby <kymarto123@ybb.ne.jp>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: sábado, 3 de septiembre de 2011 5:21
Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all


  
 
I'm interested in Lance's assertion that the 
"shape" of the pulse is important. What is this shape? I've never heard anything 
like this before. My understanding is the original "puff", as Benade calls it, 
becomes a wavefront which travels down the tube and back, as Lance says, to be 
reinforced by the next "puff" when it reaches the mpc tip. Since the reed is 
controlled by the air pressure in the tube, the timing can't help but be correct 
if the standing wave is created. The reed cycle is determined by the wave cycle 
(for the most part). 
 
What exactly, Lance, do you mean by "distortion"? 
What does it mean that the closer the combining pulses are to identical, the 
stronger, freer-blowing the tone? It has always been my understanding that this 
is largely determined by the impedances of the tube, so how can the returning 
pulse, having traveled the length of the tube (whatever the impedance graph 
looks like) have a "shape" like the impulse coming from the reed tip? This 
explanation makes no sense to me. I had always thought we get stronger, 
freer-blowing tone when the impedances maxima of the tube are in close to 
harmonic ratios.
 
Benade states that baffle adjustments affect the 
tone by changing the way the reed moves when it is nearly closed--it has to do 
with Bernoulli forces which act on the reed as the space between reed and facing 
gets narrower. This kind of behavior has nothing to do with the returning pulse, 
rather it is aerodynamically determined by the pressure differential on the two 
sides of the reed and how it develops as the reed closes.
 
Research has shown that the oral cavity does act as 
an upstream resonator, but its main effects in controlling reed behavior are in 
special cases, such as pitch bending, bugling, and in the altissimo range. There 
appears to be very little effect in aligning resonances between the oral cavity 
and a significant frequency being played, at least according to research carried 
out at UNSW.
 
Toby
----- Original Message ----- 
>From: Silverio  Potenza 
>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
>Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:09  PM
>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re:  Mouthpieces from parts to all
>
>  
>Hello MartinMods, clear your explanation. Something is consistent with my  drawings, apparently yes, if I understood there would be a backflow of air  into, but not the sound? How important would then be the oral or buccal cavity  of the player? as part of such molecular changes as I understand your  writing.
>Thank you for participating
>Silverio
>
>
>
>________________________________
> De: MartinMods  <lancelotburt@...>
>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011  18:36
>Asunto: Re:  [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>
>
>  
>While there is a jet of air entering the mouthpiece while  the reed is open, that brief jet of moving air dissipates after about  the first 1/2 inch, so, we can really forget about it after that.   What is important to realize is, the air moves relatively very  little.  It is the resultant energy moving from air molecule to air  molecule that makes the sound.  
>
>In the saxophone (conical 
        air columns) this high pressure energy pulse travels the length of the 
        tube and reflects at the open end (or open tone hole) with an inversion 
        - it becomes a low pressure pulse.  Other than the inversion, there 
        is very little change to the shape of the pulse.  It travels back 
        up the air column to the mouthpiece chamber, where the low pressure 
        allows the reed to close (completely or close to it).  Due to the 
        nature of conical air columns and the volume of the mouthpiece, there is 
        a little delay before the pulse reflects at the reed, and it does so 
        with another inversion.   It becomes a high pressure pulse 
        again, and the reed opens, commencing a new cycle of the wave, 
        reinforced by the new air jet's energy entering the mouthpiece.  
>
>For the saxophone to work at all, the shape of the reflected 
        pulse at the reed must closely resemble the shape of the energy pulse 
        generated by the air jet entering the mouthpiece chamber.  It must 
        arrive (from double tube transit) and reflect without significant 
        distortion.  The closer the combining pulses are to identical, the 
        stronger, freer blowing the tone.  Add distortion, and the sound 
        becomes weaker for the same amount of input energy.  We experience 
        resistance.  Excessive distortion, and the reed will just stay 
        closed.
>
>So what mouthpiece characteristics cause 
        distortion?  Wrong mouthpiece volume.  Wrong mouthpiece 
        frequency.    Baffle shapes that generate pulses that are not 
        sympathetic with the air column's resonance structure i.e., the air 
        column can not conduct the pulse without distortion.  Any sharp 
        edge or significant bore irregularity (e.g., a sharp window/ramp edge) 
        will cause turbulence, which will create a distortion in the 
        pulse.  
>
>
>
>
>--- On Fri, 9/2/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...m.ar> wrote:
>
>
>>From: 
          Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
>>Subject: Re: 
          [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>To: 
          MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 
          5:29 PM
>>
>>
>>  
>>Hi Dan, thanks for your observation. I just graphics or pictures to  motivate those who have more precise information to clarify some  information that goes through the web. Logically sound waves can not  and should be represented by straight lines, but we must also address  how fast these waves old, there is an implicit relationship between  air flow and velocity of the incident on the movement of the rod,  which transforms fluejo in the sound wave. The higher the wave  velocity (ie in the acute) occurs most righteous of the wave. Or am I  wrong?
>>regards
>>Silverio
>>
>>
>>________________________________
>> De: "Letydan@..."  <Letydan@...>
>>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre  de 2011 10:03
>>Asunto: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>
>>
>>  
>>Hi Silverio,
>>3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight 
          lines. Well... at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back 
          and forth inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip 
          area, that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip 
          and baffle area. Good rails will do the rest.
>>All the 
          best,
>>
>>Dan
>>
>>project 
          designer
>>hsm-masterpiece.com
>>
>>--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004"  <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> First of all let me say that i am not an expert in 
          the field of mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer
>>> 
>>> I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play 
          worse!!! - but then that is often how we learn.
>>> 
>>> The 
          m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical 
          elements combine to make your instrument speak.
>>> 
>>> Would 
          someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very end 
          of the m/p the tip edge.
>>> 
>>> If when sanding the curve 
          too much material is removed the tip becomes a knife edge. Is it then 
          necessary to sand/file the edge to put an edge of 1mm or so onto the 
          tip end.
>>> 
>>> Best Wishes to All
>>> Peter 
          Hepplewhite
>>> England UK
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --- 
          In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio  Potenza <silpopaar@> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Hello boys 
          and girls
>>> > Let's talk about important details of the 
          Mouthpieces.
>>> > I'm trying to understand certain 
          relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in 
          the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities 
          and materials. Some more successfully than others.
>>> > In the 
          following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of 
          resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I 
          probably know more about it?
>>> > I hope an interesting start, 
          going from part to whole to understand based on our own experience the 
          different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our 
          interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a 
          rule.
>>> > Thanks to all
>>> > Silverio
>>> > 
          From Patagonia Argentina
>>> 
          >
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>
>
 

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Letydan@... wrote:
>
> Hi Silverio,
> 3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight lines. Well... at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back and forth inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip area, that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip and baffle area. Good rails will do the rest.
> All the best,
> 
> Dan


EXACTLY CORRECT!!!

The fact that the air goes into the bore of the instrument has nothing to do with the sound produced.  That is just a convenient place for the air to escape.  Look at the flute... very little air enters the bore, and most of the air escapes into the space in front of the player's face.  

Take horn speakers, for example... the horn is driven by a diaphragm, no air flow at all.

An aside, I have often heard supposed experts say that the flare on the end of the sax or various brass instruments is merely decorative.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  The flare on the end of a horn, whether a trumpet or a PA system, functions as an acoustical transformer, coupling the soundwaves in the throat of the horn to the air around it.  No, the flare is not merely decorative, and it has nothing to do with air flow, either.

Paul C.

Toby,

Of course, any acoustician will tell you that trying to describe what is going on there in anything other than mathematics is senseless really, but for the layman, an incomplete picture of the actual reality is often more helpful than a completely inaccurate conception, derived from casual observation and common sense.  

To be useful, any reference to the transverse wave must include the dimension of time - (or position along the air column) and amplitude.  In the time domain that x/y graph gives us a definite shape.  Essentially, the Southbound transverse wave must be identical to the Northbound wave, only inverted.  It doesn't matter where you examine the resultant standing wave, at the reed, at some point in the neck, etc., any distortion in the Northbound wave, that isn't in the Southbound wave, will result in a weaker standing wave.

I posted this conical air column study in the MouthpieceWork2 files section some time ago.  It explains the concept: http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QIdiTvPZDvF8f9G0dgvfi6U5rgukyogoLS5g-OE8KfSP6YoI3W9BWxtH753Q_r1V6uGojlhZaUoLPhMRs8g8VkhGWaMEGCTmpDBL/1985Ayers.pdf

--- On Sat, 9/3/11, Toby <kymarto123@...> wrote:

From: Toby <kymarto123@...>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 8:21 AM







 



  


    
      
      
      


I'm interested in Lance's assertion that the 
"shape" of the pulse is important. What is this shape? I've never heard anything 
like this before. My understanding is the original "puff", as Benade calls it, 
becomes a wavefront which travels down the tube and back, as Lance says, to be 
reinforced by the next "puff" when it reaches the mpc tip. Since the reed is 
controlled by the air pressure in the tube, the timing can't help but be correct 
if the standing wave is created. The reed cycle is determined by the wave cycle 
(for the most part). 
 
What exactly, Lance, do you mean by "distortion"? 
What does it mean that the closer the combining pulses are to identical, the 
stronger, freer-blowing the tone? It has always been my understanding that this 
is largely determined by the impedances of the tube, so how can the returning 
pulse, having traveled the length of the tube (whatever the impedance graph 
looks like) have a "shape" like the impulse coming from the reed tip? This 
explanation makes no sense to me. I had always thought we get stronger, 
freer-blowing tone when the impedances maxima of the tube are in close to 
harmonic ratios.
 
Benade states that baffle adjustments affect the 
tone by changing the way the reed moves when it is nearly closed--it has to do 
with Bernoulli forces which act on the reed as the space between reed and facing 
gets narrower. This kind of behavior has nothing to do with the returning pulse, 
rather it is aerodynamically determined by the pressure differential on the two 
sides of the reed and how it develops as the reed closes.
 
Research has shown that the oral cavity does act as 
an upstream resonator, but its main effects in controlling reed behavior are in 
special cases, such as pitch bending, bugling, and in the altissimo range. There 
appears to be very little effect in aligning resonances between the oral cavity 
and a significant frequency being played, at least according to research carried 
out at UNSW.
 
Toby

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: 
  Silverio 
  Potenza 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  
  Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:09 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: 
  Mouthpieces from parts to all
  
  
  
  Hello MartinMods, clear your explanation. Something is consistent with my 
  drawings, apparently yes, if I understood there would be a backflow of air 
  into, but not the sound? How important would then be the oral or buccal cavity 
  of the player? as part of such molecular changes as I understand your 
  writing.
Thank you for participating
Silverio


  
  
  
  De: MartinMods 
  <lancelotburt@...>
Para: 
  MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 
  18:36
Asunto: Re: 
  [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all


    
  
  
  
    
    
      While there is a jet of air entering the mouthpiece while 
        the reed is open, that brief jet of moving air dissipates after about 
        the first 1/2 inch, so, we can really forget about it after that.  
        What is important to realize is, the air moves relatively very 
        little.  It is the resultant energy moving from air molecule to air 
        molecule that makes the sound.  

In the saxophone (conical 
        air columns) this high pressure energy pulse travels the length of the 
        tube and reflects at the open end (or open tone hole) with an inversion 
        - it becomes a low pressure pulse.  Other than the inversion, there 
        is very little change to the shape of the pulse.  It travels back 
        up the air column to the mouthpiece chamber, where the low pressure 
        allows the reed to close (completely or close to it).  Due to the 
        nature of conical air columns and the volume of the mouthpiece, there is 
        a little delay before the pulse reflects at the reed, and it does so 
        with another inversion.   It becomes a high pressure pulse 
        again, and the reed opens, commencing a new cycle of the wave, 
        reinforced by the new air jet's energy entering the mouthpiece.  
        

For the saxophone to work at all, the shape of the reflected 
        pulse at the reed must closely resemble the shape of the energy pulse 
        generated by the air jet entering the mouthpiece chamber.  It must 
        arrive (from double tube transit) and reflect without significant 
        distortion.  The closer the combining pulses are to identical, the 
        stronger, freer blowing the tone.  Add distortion, and the sound 
        becomes weaker for the same amount of input energy.  We experience 
        resistance.  Excessive distortion, and the reed will just stay 
        closed.

So what mouthpiece characteristics cause 
        distortion?  Wrong mouthpiece volume.  Wrong mouthpiece 
        frequency.    Baffle shapes that generate pulses that are not 
        sympathetic with the air column's resonance structure i.e., the air 
        column can not conduct the pulse without distortion.  Any sharp 
        edge or significant bore irregularity (e.g., a sharp window/ramp edge) 
        will cause turbulence, which will create a distortion in the 
        pulse.  




--- On Fri, 9/2/11, Silverio Potenza 
        <silpopaar@...> wrote:

        
From: 
          Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
Subject: Re: 
          [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
To: 
          MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 
          5:29 PM


            
          
          Hi Dan, thanks for your observation. I just graphics or pictures to 
          motivate those who have more precise information to clarify some 
          information that goes through the web. Logically sound waves can not 
          and should be represented by straight lines, but we must also address 
          how fast these waves old, there is an implicit relationship between 
          air flow and velocity of the incident on the movement of the rod, 
          which transforms fluejo in the sound wave. The higher the wave 
          velocity (ie in the acute) occurs most righteous of the wave. Or am I 
          wrong?
regards
Silverio

          
          
          
          De: "Letydan@..." 
          <Letydan@...>
Para: 
          MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre 
          de 2011 10:03
Asunto: 
          [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all


            
          
          Hi Silverio,
3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight 
          lines. Well... at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back 
          and forth inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip 
          area, that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip 
          and baffle area. Good rails will do the rest.
All the 
          best,

Dan

project 
          designer
hsm-masterpiece.com

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004" 
          <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
          
> 
> First of all let me say that i am not an expert in 
          the field of mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer
> 
          
> I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play 
          worse!!! - but then that is often how we learn.
> 
> The 
          m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical 
          elements combine to make your instrument speak.
> 
> Would 
          someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very end 
          of the m/p the tip edge.
> 
> If when sanding the curve 
          too much material is removed the tip becomes a knife edge. Is it then 
          necessary to sand/file the edge to put an edge of 1mm or so onto the 
          tip end.
> 
> Best Wishes to All
> Peter 
          Hepplewhite
> England UK
> 
> 
> 
> --- 
          In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio 
          Potenza <silpopaar@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello boys 
          and girls
> > Let's talk about important details of the 
          Mouthpieces.
> > I'm trying to understand certain 
          relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in 
          the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities 
          and materials. Some more successfully than others.
> > In the 
          following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of 
          resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I 
          probably know more about it?
> > I hope an interesting start, 
          going from part to whole to understand based on our own experience the 
          different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our 
          interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a 
          rule.
> > Thanks to all
> > Silverio
> > 
          From Patagonia Argentina
> 
          >
>






  


    
     

    
    


 



  

The shape of the bell flare is vital on a lip reed (trumpet/trombone/horn) instrument,. true.  On saxophones however, the only tone that reflects at the bell is low Bb (or A), the rest reflect at their respective tone hole, so the air column resonances which actually contribute energy to the regime (tone), enabling the instrument to sound at all, are completely unaffected by the shape of the bell.  Each tone hole does have it's own cut-off frequency however, above which sound energy does not even enter the open tone hole, rather these higher frequency resonances continue down the tube to the bell.  They are filtered by the open tone holes (open tone hole lattice)along the way and then by the shape of the bell itself.    As with trumpets then, some frequencies are able to escape into the room and the rest are reflected back up the tube.  In this way, the open tone holes below the sounding tone hole, and the bell affect the higher frequencies of the
 perceived tone emanating from the instrument, but these resonances do not contribute energy to the system driving the reed.  They are in fact a drain on it.

Other than the lowest note, the shape of the bell on a properly designed saxophone won't have a noticeable affect on how the low register speaks, responds, or feels to play.  



An aside, I have often heard supposed experts say that the flare on the end of the sax or various brass instruments is merely decorative.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  The flare on the end of a horn, whether a trumpet or a PA system, functions as an acoustical transformer, coupling the soundwaves in the throat of the horn to the air around it.  No, the flare is not merely decorative, and it has nothing to do with air flow, either.



Paul C.





    
     

    
    


 



  

Have you personally built a lot of saxophones? That is very contrary to my experience...

Sent from my iPad

STEVE  GOODSON
Saxophone Guru and Visionary
New Orleans
www.nationofmusic.com



On Sep 3, 2011, at 8:27 PM, MartinMods <lancelotburt@...> wrote:

> The shape of the bell flare is vital on a lip reed (trumpet/trombone/horn) instrument,. true.  On saxophones however, the only tone that reflects at the bell is low Bb (or A), the rest reflect at their respective tone hole, so the air column resonances which actually contribute energy to the regime (tone), enabling the instrument to sound at all, are completely unaffected by the shape of the bell.  Each tone hole does have it's own cut-off frequency however, above which sound energy does not even enter the open tone hole, rather these higher frequency resonances continue down the tube to the bell.  They are filtered by the open tone holes (open tone hole lattice)along the way and then by the shape of the bell itself.    As with trumpets then, some frequencies are able to escape into the room and the rest are reflected back up the tube.  In this way, the open tone holes below the sounding tone hole, and the bell affect the higher frequencies of the perceived tone emanating from the instrument, but these resonances do not contribute energy to the system driving the reed.  They are in fact a drain on it.
> 
> Other than the lowest note, the shape of the bell on a properly designed saxophone won't have a noticeable affect on how the low register speaks, responds, or feels to play.  
> 
> An aside, I have often heard supposed experts say that the flare on the end of the sax or various brass instruments is merely decorative. Nothing could be further from the truth. The flare on the end of a horn, whether a trumpet or a PA system, functions as an acoustical transformer, coupling the soundwaves in the throat of the horn to the air around it. No, the flare is not merely decorative, and it has nothing to do with air flow, either.
> 
> Paul C.
> 
> 

I have fashioned a sufficient number of custom bells with my own two hands to form (no pun intended) an opinion.  We are of course referring to the bell flare section, after the last tone hole, exclusively, not the bore of the bell nor the size/placement of tone holes.  Do elaborate.

--- On Sun, 9/4/11, Steve Goodson <saxgourmet@...> wrote:

From: Steve Goodson <saxgourmet@...>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
To: "MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, September 4, 2011, 1:35 AM







 



  


    
      
      
      Have you personally built a lot of saxophones? That is very contrary to my experience...

Sent from my iPad
STEVE  GOODSONSaxophone Guru and VisionaryNew Orleanswww.nationofmusic.com


On Sep 3, 2011, at 8:27 PM, MartinMods <lancelotburt@...> wrote:






 



    
      
      
      The shape of the bell flare is vital on a lip reed (trumpet/trombone/horn) instrument,. true.  On saxophones however, the only tone that reflects at the bell is low Bb (or A), the rest reflect at their respective tone hole, so the air column resonances which actually contribute energy to the regime (tone), enabling the instrument to sound at all, are completely unaffected by the shape of the bell.  Each tone hole does have it's own cut-off frequency however, above which sound energy does not even enter the open tone hole, rather these higher frequency resonances continue down the tube to the bell.  They are filtered by the open tone holes (open tone hole lattice)along the way and then by the shape of the bell itself.    As with trumpets then, some frequencies are able to escape into the room and the rest are reflected back up the
 tube.  In this way, the open tone holes below the sounding tone hole, and the bell affect the higher frequencies of the perceived tone emanating from the instrument, but these resonances do not contribute energy to the system driving the reed.  They are in fact a drain on it.

Other than the lowest note, the shape of the bell on a properly designed saxophone won't have a noticeable affect on how the low register speaks, responds, or feels to play.  



An aside, I have often heard supposed experts say that the flare on the end of the sax or various brass instruments is merely decorative.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  The flare on the end of a horn, whether a trumpet or a PA system, functions as an acoustical transformer, coupling the soundwaves in the throat of the horn to the air around it.  No, the flare is not merely decorative, and it has nothing to do with air flow, either.



Paul C.





    
     



 




    
     

    









    
     

    
    


 



  

Agree. The bell is an impedance-matching device, there to improve the sound radiation from the last note, and to a lesser extent that of the next few higher notes. Notes above that have the sound radiated effectively from the open tone holes below them. The last note in particular has no open tone holes below it, and an abrupt cutoff would reflect high frequencies back into the horn, making the note very dull-sounding. The bell flare allows the high-frequencies to be radiated out instead of reflected back into the horn. I do believe, though, that it has some small effect on one or two of the next-lowest notes, but not much.

--- On Sun, 2011/9/4, MartinMods <lancelotburt@yahbut nooo.com> wrote:















 
 



  


    
      
      
      I have fashioned a sufficient number of custom bells with my own two hands to form (no pun intended) an opinion.  We are of course referring to the bell flare section, after the last tone hole, exclusively, not the bore of the bell nor the size/placement of tone holes.  Do elaborate.

--- On Sun, 9/4/11, Steve Goodson <saxgourmet@...> wrote:

From: Steve Goodson <saxgourmet@...>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
To: "MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, September 4, 2011, 1:35 AM







 



    
      
      
      Have you personally built a lot of saxophones? That is very contrary to my experience...

Sent from my iPad
STEVE  GOODSONSaxophone Guru and VisionaryNew Orleanswww.nationofmusic.com


On Sep 3, 2011, at 8:27 PM, MartinMods <lancelotburt@...> wrote:






 



    
      
      
      The shape of the bell flare is vital on a lip reed (trumpet/trombone/horn) instrument,. true.  On saxophones however, the only tone that reflects at the bell is low Bb (or A), the rest reflect at their respective tone hole, so the air column resonances which actually contribute energy to the regime (tone), enabling the instrument to sound at all, are completely unaffected by the shape of the bell.  Each tone hole does have it's own cut-off frequency however, above which sound energy does not even enter the open tone hole, rather these higher frequency resonances continue down the tube to the bell.  They are filtered by the open tone holes (open tone hole lattice)along the way and then by the shape of the bell itself.    As with trumpets then, some frequencies are able to escape into the room and the rest are
 reflected back up the
 tube.  In this way, the open tone holes below the sounding tone hole, and the bell affect the higher frequencies of the perceived tone emanating from the instrument, but these resonances do not contribute energy to the system driving the reed.  They are in fact a drain on it.

Other than the lowest note, the shape of the bell on a properly designed saxophone won't have a noticeable affect on how the low register speaks, responds, or feels to play.  



An aside, I have often heard supposed experts say that the flare on the end of the sax or various brass instruments is merely decorative.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  The flare on the end of a horn, whether a trumpet or a PA system, functions as an acoustical transformer, coupling the soundwaves in the throat of the horn to the air around it.  No, the flare is not merely decorative, and it has nothing to do with air flow, either.



Paul C.





    
     



 




    
     

    









    
     



 




    
     

    
    


 



  

This html message parsed with html2text --------------------------->> I do believe, though, that it has some small effect on one or two of the
next- lowest notes, but not much.  
  
This can be proven on a clarinet by playing the low notes and removing and
replacing the bell.

KenL  
  
  
Sep 4, 2011 07:29:56 AM, MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com wrote:  

> Agree. The bell is an impedance-matching device, there to improve the sound
> radiation from the last note, and to a lesser extent that of the next few
> higher notes. Notes above that have the sound radiated effectively from the
> open tone holes below them. The last note in particular has no open tone
> holes below it, and an abrupt cutoff would reflect high frequencies back
> into the horn, making the note very dull-sounding. The bell flare allows the
> high-frequencies to be radiated out instead of reflected back into the horn.
> I do believe, though, that it has some small effect on one or two of the
> next- lowest notes, but not much.  
>  
> \\--- On **Sun, 2011/9/4, MartinMods __**wrote:  
>
>

>>  
>  | I have fashioned a sufficient number of custom bells with my own two hands to form (no pun intended) an opinion. We are of course referring to the bell flare section, after the last tone hole, exclusively, not the bore of the bell nor the size/placement of tone holes. Do elaborate.  
>  
> \\--- On **Sun, 9/4/11, Steve Goodson __**wrote:  
>
>>

>>>  
> From: Steve Goodson  
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all  
> To: "MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com"  
> Date: Sunday, September 4, 2011, 1:35 AM  
>  
>  Have you personally built a lot of saxophones? That is very contrary to my
> experience...  
>  
> Sent from my iPad  
>  STEVE GOODSON Saxophone Guru and Visionary New Orleans
> [www.nationofmusic.com](http://www.nationofmusic.com)  
>  
>  
> On Sep 3, 2011, at 8:27 PM, MartinMods  wrote:  
>  
>
>>>

>>>> | The shape of the bell flare is vital on a lip reed (trumpet/trombone/horn) instrument,. true. On saxophones however, the only tone that reflects at the bell is low Bb (or A), the rest reflect at their respective tone hole, so the air column resonances which actually contribute energy to the regime (tone), enabling the instrument to sound at all, are completely unaffected by the shape of the bell. Each tone hole does have it's own cut-off frequency however, above which sound energy does not even enter the open tone hole, rather these higher frequency resonances continue down the tube to the bell. They are filtered by the open tone holes (open tone hole lattice)along the way and then by the shape of the bell itself. As with trumpets then, some frequencies are able to escape into the room and the rest are reflected back up the tube. In this way, the open tone holes below the sounding tone hole, and the bell affect the higher frequencies of the perceived tone emanating from the instrument, but these resonances do not contribute energy to the system driving the reed. They are in fact a drain on it.  
>  
> Other than the lowest note, the shape of the bell on a properly designed
> saxophone won't have a noticeable affect on how the low register speaks,
> responds, or feels to play.  
>
>>>>

>>>>>  
> An aside, I have often heard supposed experts say that the flare on the end
> of the sax or various brass instruments is merely decorative. Nothing could
> be further from the truth. The flare on the end of a horn, whether a trumpet
> or a PA system, functions as an acoustical transformer, coupling the
> soundwaves in the throat of the horn to the air around it. No, the flare is
> not merely decorative, and it has nothing to do with air flow, either.  
>  
> Paul C.  
>  
>  
>>>>  
>>>> ---

Not too clear.  A diagram might help.

--- On Sat, 9/3/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:

From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 4:06 PM







 



  


    
      
      
      Very interesting development of your concepts Lance.
I have a question I will try to develop a "trial and error" coming soon. What if from the tip of the deflector or baffle with some micrometer channel along said tip begins to close (closer to the rod) from 1 cm from the tip, with an initial length from that cm from the tip to the end of the curve. Got it?
regards
Silverio

De: Toby <kymarto123@ybb.ne.jp>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: sábado, 3 de septiembre de 2011 5:21
Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re:
 Mouthpieces from parts to all














 
 



    
      
      
      


I'm interested in Lance's assertion that the 
"shape" of the pulse is important. What is this shape? I've never heard anything 
like this before. My understanding is the original "puff", as Benade calls it, 
becomes a wavefront which travels down the tube and back, as Lance says, to be 
reinforced by the next "puff" when it reaches the mpc tip. Since the reed is 
controlled by the air pressure in the tube, the timing can't help but be correct 
if the standing wave is created. The reed cycle is determined by the wave cycle 
(for the most part). 
 
What exactly, Lance, do you mean by "distortion"? 
What does it mean that the closer the combining pulses are to identical, the 
stronger, freer-blowing the tone? It has always been my understanding that this 
is largely determined by the impedances of the tube, so how can the returning 
pulse, having traveled the length of the tube (whatever the impedance graph 
looks like) have a "shape" like the impulse coming from the reed tip? This 
explanation makes no sense to me. I had always thought we get stronger, 
freer-blowing tone when the impedances maxima of the tube are in close to 
harmonic ratios.
 
Benade states that baffle adjustments affect the 
tone by changing the way the reed moves when it is nearly closed--it has to do 
with Bernoulli forces which act on the reed as the space between reed and facing 
gets narrower. This kind of behavior has nothing to do with the returning pulse, 
rather it is aerodynamically determined by the pressure differential on the two 
sides of the reed and how it develops as the reed closes.
 
Research has shown that the oral cavity does act as 
an upstream resonator, but its main effects in controlling reed behavior are in 
special cases, such as pitch bending, bugling, and in the altissimo range. There 
appears to be very little effect in aligning resonances between the oral cavity 
and a significant frequency being played, at least according to research carried 
out at UNSW.
 
Toby

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: 
  Silverio 
  Potenza 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  
  Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:09 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: 
  Mouthpieces from parts to all
  
  
  
  Hello MartinMods, clear your explanation. Something is consistent with my 
  drawings, apparently yes, if I understood there would be a backflow of air 
  into, but not the sound? How important would then be the oral or buccal cavity 
  of the player? as part of such molecular changes as I understand your 
  writing.
Thank you for participating
Silverio


  
  
  
  De: MartinMods 
  <lancelotburt@...>
Para: 
  MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 
  18:36
Asunto: Re: 
  [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all


    
  
  
  
    
    
      While there is a jet of air entering the mouthpiece while 
        the reed is open, that brief jet of moving air dissipates after about 
        the first 1/2 inch, so, we can really forget about it after that.  
        What is important to realize is, the air moves relatively very 
        little.  It is the resultant energy moving from air molecule to air 
        molecule that makes the sound.  

In the saxophone (conical 
        air columns) this high pressure energy pulse travels the length of the 
        tube and reflects at the open end (or open tone hole) with an inversion 
        - it becomes a low pressure pulse.  Other than the inversion, there 
        is very little change to the shape of the pulse.  It travels back 
        up the air column to the mouthpiece chamber, where the low pressure 
        allows the reed to close (completely or close to it).  Due to the 
        nature of conical air columns and the volume of the mouthpiece, there is 
        a little delay before the pulse reflects at the reed, and it does so 
        with another inversion.   It becomes a high pressure pulse 
        again, and the reed opens, commencing a new cycle of the wave, 
        reinforced by the new air jet's energy entering the mouthpiece.  
        

For the saxophone to work at all, the shape of the reflected 
        pulse at the reed must closely resemble the shape of the energy pulse 
        generated by the air jet entering the mouthpiece chamber.  It must 
        arrive (from double tube transit) and reflect without significant 
        distortion.  The closer the combining pulses are to identical, the 
        stronger, freer blowing the tone.  Add distortion, and the sound 
        becomes weaker for the same amount of input energy.  We experience 
        resistance.  Excessive distortion, and the reed will just stay 
        closed.

So what mouthpiece characteristics cause 
        distortion?  Wrong mouthpiece volume.  Wrong mouthpiece 
        frequency.    Baffle shapes that generate pulses that are not 
        sympathetic with the air column's resonance structure i.e., the air 
        column can not conduct the pulse without distortion.  Any sharp 
        edge or significant bore irregularity (e.g., a sharp window/ramp edge) 
        will cause turbulence, which will create a distortion in the 
        pulse.  




--- On Fri, 9/2/11, Silverio Potenza 
        <silpopaar@...> wrote:

        
From: 
          Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
Subject: Re: 
          [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
To: 
          MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 
          5:29 PM


            
          
          Hi Dan, thanks for your observation. I just graphics or pictures to 
          motivate those who have more precise information to clarify some 
          information that goes through the web. Logically sound waves can not 
          and should be represented by straight lines, but we must also address 
          how fast these waves old, there is an implicit relationship between 
          air flow and velocity of the incident on the movement of the rod, 
          which transforms fluejo in the sound wave. The higher the wave 
          velocity (ie in the acute) occurs most righteous of the wave. Or am I 
          wrong?
regards
Silverio

          
          
          
          De: "Letydan@..." 
          <Letydan@...>
Para: 
          MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre 
          de 2011 10:03
Asunto: 
          [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all


            
          
          Hi Silverio,
3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight 
          lines. Well... at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back 
          and forth inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip 
          area, that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip 
          and baffle area. Good rails will do the rest.
All the 
          best,

Dan

project 
          designer
hsm-masterpiece.com

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004" 
          <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
          
> 
> First of all let me say that i am not an expert in 
          the field of mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer
> 
          
> I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play 
          worse!!! - but then that is often how we learn.
> 
> The 
          m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical 
          elements combine to make your instrument speak.
> 
> Would 
          someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very end 
          of the m/p the tip edge.
> 
> If when sanding the curve 
          too much material is removed the tip becomes a knife edge. Is it then 
          necessary to sand/file the edge to put an edge of 1mm or so onto the 
          tip end.
> 
> Best Wishes to All
> Peter 
          Hepplewhite
> England UK
> 
> 
> 
> --- 
          In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio 
          Potenza <silpopaar@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello boys 
          and girls
> > Let's talk about important details of the 
          Mouthpieces.
> > I'm trying to understand certain 
          relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in 
          the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities 
          and materials. Some more successfully than others.
> > In the 
          following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of 
          resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I 
          probably know more about it?
> > I hope an interesting start, 
          going from part to whole to understand based on our own experience the 
          different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our 
          interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a 
          rule.
> > Thanks to all
> > Silverio
> > 
          From Patagonia Argentina
> 
          >
>






  


    
     



 









    
     

    
    


 



  

Here go one possibility or as first idea.


--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@...> wrote:
>
> Not too clear.  A diagram might help.
> 
> --- On Sat, 9/3/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:
> 
> From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 4:06 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
>     
>       
>       
>       Very interesting development of your concepts Lance.
> I have a question I will try to develop a "trial and error" coming soon. What if from the tip of the deflector or baffle with some micrometer channel along said tip begins to close (closer to the rod) from 1 cm from the tip, with an initial length from that cm from the tip to the end of the curve. Got it?
> regards
> Silverio
> 
> De: Toby <kymarto123@...>
> Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Enviado: sábado, 3 de septiembre de 2011 5:21
> Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re:
>  Mouthpieces from parts to all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
>     
>       
>       
>       
> 
> 
> I'm interested in Lance's assertion that the 
> "shape" of the pulse is important. What is this shape? I've never heard anything 
> like this before. My understanding is the original "puff", as Benade calls it, 
> becomes a wavefront which travels down the tube and back, as Lance says, to be 
> reinforced by the next "puff" when it reaches the mpc tip. Since the reed is 
> controlled by the air pressure in the tube, the timing can't help but be correct 
> if the standing wave is created. The reed cycle is determined by the wave cycle 
> (for the most part). 
>  
> What exactly, Lance, do you mean by "distortion"? 
> What does it mean that the closer the combining pulses are to identical, the 
> stronger, freer-blowing the tone? It has always been my understanding that this 
> is largely determined by the impedances of the tube, so how can the returning 
> pulse, having traveled the length of the tube (whatever the impedance graph 
> looks like) have a "shape" like the impulse coming from the reed tip? This 
> explanation makes no sense to me. I had always thought we get stronger, 
> freer-blowing tone when the impedances maxima of the tube are in close to 
> harmonic ratios.
>  
> Benade states that baffle adjustments affect the 
> tone by changing the way the reed moves when it is nearly closed--it has to do 
> with Bernoulli forces which act on the reed as the space between reed and facing 
> gets narrower. This kind of behavior has nothing to do with the returning pulse, 
> rather it is aerodynamically determined by the pressure differential on the two 
> sides of the reed and how it develops as the reed closes.
>  
> Research has shown that the oral cavity does act as 
> an upstream resonator, but its main effects in controlling reed behavior are in 
> special cases, such as pitch bending, bugling, and in the altissimo range. There 
> appears to be very little effect in aligning resonances between the oral cavity 
> and a significant frequency being played, at least according to research carried 
> out at UNSW.
>  
> Toby
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: 
>   Silverio 
>   Potenza 
>   To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
>   
>   Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:09 
>   PM
>   Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: 
>   Mouthpieces from parts to all
>   
>   
>   
>   Hello MartinMods, clear your explanation. Something is consistent with my 
>   drawings, apparently yes, if I understood there would be a backflow of air 
>   into, but not the sound? How important would then be the oral or buccal cavity 
>   of the player? as part of such molecular changes as I understand your 
>   writing.
> Thank you for participating
> Silverio
> 
> 
>   
>   
>   
>   De: MartinMods 
>   <lancelotburt@...>
> Para: 
>   MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 
>   18:36
> Asunto: Re: 
>   [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> 
> 
>     
>   
>   
>   
>     
>     
>       While there is a jet of air entering the mouthpiece while 
>         the reed is open, that brief jet of moving air dissipates after about 
>         the first 1/2 inch, so, we can really forget about it after that.  
>         What is important to realize is, the air moves relatively very 
>         little.  It is the resultant energy moving from air molecule to air 
>         molecule that makes the sound.  
> 
> In the saxophone (conical 
>         air columns) this high pressure energy pulse travels the length of the 
>         tube and reflects at the open end (or open tone hole) with an inversion 
>         - it becomes a low pressure pulse.  Other than the inversion, there 
>         is very little change to the shape of the pulse.  It travels back 
>         up the air column to the mouthpiece chamber, where the low pressure 
>         allows the reed to close (completely or close to it).  Due to the 
>         nature of conical air columns and the volume of the mouthpiece, there is 
>         a little delay before the pulse reflects at the reed, and it does so 
>         with another inversion.   It becomes a high pressure pulse 
>         again, and the reed opens, commencing a new cycle of the wave, 
>         reinforced by the new air jet's energy entering the mouthpiece.  
>         
> 
> For the saxophone to work at all, the shape of the reflected 
>         pulse at the reed must closely resemble the shape of the energy pulse 
>         generated by the air jet entering the mouthpiece chamber.  It must 
>         arrive (from double tube transit) and reflect without significant 
>         distortion.  The closer the combining pulses are to identical, the 
>         stronger, freer blowing the tone.  Add distortion, and the sound 
>         becomes weaker for the same amount of input energy.  We experience 
>         resistance.  Excessive distortion, and the reed will just stay 
>         closed.
> 
> So what mouthpiece characteristics cause 
>         distortion?  Wrong mouthpiece volume.  Wrong mouthpiece 
>         frequency.    Baffle shapes that generate pulses that are not 
>         sympathetic with the air column's resonance structure i.e., the air 
>         column can not conduct the pulse without distortion.  Any sharp 
>         edge or significant bore irregularity (e.g., a sharp window/ramp edge) 
>         will cause turbulence, which will create a distortion in the 
>         pulse.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Fri, 9/2/11, Silverio Potenza 
>         <silpopaar@...> wrote:
> 
>         
> From: 
>           Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
> Subject: Re: 
>           [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> To: 
>           MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 
>           5:29 PM
> 
> 
>             
>           
>           Hi Dan, thanks for your observation. I just graphics or pictures to 
>           motivate those who have more precise information to clarify some 
>           information that goes through the web. Logically sound waves can not 
>           and should be represented by straight lines, but we must also address 
>           how fast these waves old, there is an implicit relationship between 
>           air flow and velocity of the incident on the movement of the rod, 
>           which transforms fluejo in the sound wave. The higher the wave 
>           velocity (ie in the acute) occurs most righteous of the wave. Or am I 
>           wrong?
> regards
> Silverio
> 
>           
>           
>           
>           De: "Letydan@..." 
>           <Letydan@...>
> Para: 
>           MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre 
>           de 2011 10:03
> Asunto: 
>           [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> 
> 
>             
>           
>           Hi Silverio,
> 3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight 
>           lines. Well... at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back 
>           and forth inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip 
>           area, that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip 
>           and baffle area. Good rails will do the rest.
> All the 
>           best,
> 
> Dan
> 
> project 
>           designer
> hsm-masterpiece.com
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004" 
>           <peterhepplewhite@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > 
>           
> > 
> > First of all let me say that i am not an expert in 
>           the field of mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer
> > 
>           
> > I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play 
>           worse!!! - but then that is often how we learn.
> > 
> > The 
>           m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical 
>           elements combine to make your instrument speak.
> > 
> > Would 
>           someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very end 
>           of the m/p the tip edge.
> > 
> > If when sanding the curve 
>           too much material is removed the tip becomes a knife edge. Is it then 
>           necessary to sand/file the edge to put an edge of 1mm or so onto the 
>           tip end.
> > 
> > Best Wishes to All
> > Peter 
>           Hepplewhite
> > England UK
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- 
>           In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio 
>           Potenza <silpopaar@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello boys 
>           and girls
> > > Let's talk about important details of the 
>           Mouthpieces.
> > > I'm trying to understand certain 
>           relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in 
>           the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities 
>           and materials. Some more successfully than others.
> > > In the 
>           following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of 
>           resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I 
>           probably know more about it?
> > > I hope an interesting start, 
>           going from part to whole to understand based on our own experience the 
>           different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our 
>           interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a 
>           rule.
> > > Thanks to all
> > > Silverio
> > > 
>           From Patagonia Argentina
> > 
>           >
> >
>

Here go one idea or possibility, maybe yet was realized.


De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: domingo, 4 de septiembre de 2011 20:24
Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all

  
Not too clear.  A diagram might help.

--- On Sat, 9/3/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:


>From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 4:06 PM
>
>
>  
>Very interesting development of your concepts Lance.
>I have a question I will try to develop a "trial and error" coming soon. What if from the tip of the deflector or baffle with some micrometer channel along said tip begins to close (closer to the rod) from 1 cm from the tip, with an initial length from that cm from the tip to the end of the curve. Got it?
>regards
>Silverio
>
>
>De: Toby <kymarto123@...>
>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>Enviado: sábado, 3 de septiembre de 2011 5:21
>Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>
>  
> 
>I'm interested in Lance's assertion that the "shape" of the pulse is important. What is this shape? I've never heard anything like this before. My understanding is the original "puff", as Benade calls it, becomes a wavefront which travels down the tube and back, as Lance says, to be reinforced by the next "puff" when it reaches the mpc tip. Since the reed is controlled by the air pressure in the tube, the timing can't help but be correct if the standing wave is created. The reed cycle is determined by the wave cycle (for the most part). 
> 
>What exactly, Lance, do you mean by "distortion"? What does it mean that the closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer-blowing the tone? It has always been my understanding that this is largely determined by the impedances of the tube, so how can the returning pulse, having traveled the length of the tube (whatever the impedance graph looks like) have a "shape" like the impulse coming from the reed tip? This explanation makes no sense to me. I had always thought we get stronger, freer-blowing tone when the impedances maxima of the tube are in close to harmonic ratios.
> 
>Benade states that baffle adjustments affect the tone by changing the way the reed moves when it is nearly closed--it has to do with Bernoulli forces which act on the reed as the space between reed and facing gets narrower. This kind of behavior has nothing to do with the returning pulse, rather it is aerodynamically determined by the pressure differential on the two sides of the reed and how it develops as the reed closes.
> 
>Research has shown that the oral cavity does act as an upstream resonator, but its main effects in controlling reed behavior are in special cases, such as pitch bending, bugling, and in the altissimo range. There appears to be very little effect in aligning resonances between the oral cavity and a significant frequency being played, at least according to research carried out at UNSW.
> 
>Toby
>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: Silverio Potenza 
>>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
>>Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:09 PM
>>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all  
>>Hello MartinMods, clear your explanation. Something is consistent with my drawings, apparently yes, if I understood there would be a backflow of air into, but not the sound? How important would then be the oral or buccal cavity of the player? as part of such molecular changes as I understand your writing.
>>Thank you for participating
>>Silverio
>>
>>
>>De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
>>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 18:36
>>Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>
>>  
>>While there is a jet of air entering the mouthpiece while the reed is open, that brief jet of moving air dissipates after about the first 1/2 inch, so, we can really forget about it after that.  What is important to realize is, the air moves relatively very little.  It is the resultant energy moving from air molecule to air molecule that makes the sound.  
>>
>>In the saxophone (conical air columns) this high pressure energy pulse travels the length of the tube and reflects at the open end (or open tone hole) with an inversion - it becomes a low pressure pulse.  Other than the inversion, there is very little change to the shape of the pulse.  It travels back up the air column to the mouthpiece chamber, where the low pressure allows the reed to close (completely or close to it).  Due to the nature of conical air columns and the volume of the mouthpiece, there is a little delay before the pulse reflects at the reed, and it does so with another inversion.   It becomes a high pressure pulse again, and the reed opens, commencing a new cycle of the wave, reinforced by the new air jet's energy entering the mouthpiece.  
>>
>>For the saxophone to work at all, the shape of the reflected pulse at the reed must closely resemble the shape of the energy pulse generated by the air jet entering the mouthpiece chamber.  It must arrive (from double tube transit) and reflect without significant distortion.  The closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer blowing the tone.  Add distortion, and the sound becomes weaker for the same amount of input energy.  We experience resistance.  Excessive distortion, and the reed will just stay closed.
>>
>>So what mouthpiece characteristics cause distortion?  Wrong mouthpiece volume.  Wrong mouthpiece frequency.    Baffle shapes that generate pulses that are not sympathetic with the air column's resonance structure i.e., the air column can not conduct the pulse without distortion.  Any sharp edge or significant bore irregularity (e.g., a sharp window/ramp edge) will cause turbulence, which will create a distortion in the pulse.  
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--- On Fri, 9/2/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@....ar>
>>>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>>Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 5:29 PM
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>Hi Dan, thanks for your observation. I just graphics or pictures to motivate those who have more precise information to clarify some information that goes through the web. Logically sound waves can not and should be represented by straight lines, but we must also address how fast these waves old, there is an implicit relationship between air flow and velocity of the incident on the movement of the rod, which transforms fluejo in the sound wave. The higher the wave velocity (ie in the acute) occurs most righteous of the wave. Or am I wrong?
>>>regards
>>>Silverio
>>>
>>>De: "Letydan@..." <Letydan@...>
>>>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>>Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 10:03
>>>Asunto: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>>
>>>  
>>>Hi Silverio,
>>>3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight lines. Well... at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back and forth inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip area, that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip and baffle area. Good rails will do the rest.
>>>All the best,
>>>
>>>Dan
>>>
>>>project designer
>>>hsm-masterpiece.com
>>>
>>>--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004" <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> First of all let me say that i am not an expert in the field of mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer
>>>> 
>>>> I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play worse!!! - but then that is often how we learn.
>>>> 
>>>> The m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical elements combine to make your instrument speak.
>>>> 
>>>> Would someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very end of the m/p the tip edge.
>>>> 
>>>> If when sanding the curve too much material is removed the tip becomes a knife edge. Is it then necessary to sand/file the edge to put an edge of 1mm or so onto the tip end.
>>>> 
>>>> Best Wishes to All
>>>> Peter Hepplewhite
>>>> England UK
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Hello boys and girls
>>>> > Let's talk about important details of the Mouthpieces.
>>>> > I'm trying to understand certain relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities and materials. Some more successfully than others.
>>>> > In the following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I probably know more about it?
>>>> > I hope an interesting start, going from part to whole to understand based on our own experience the different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a rule.
>>>> > Thanks to all
>>>> > Silverio
>>>> > From Patagonia Argentina
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>
>>>  

I can't imagine such a design being advantageous in any way. What's the thought behind the ugly bump?

Easy enough to test, though, with some chewing gum and a low-baffle piece...


--- Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@....ar> wrote:
> Here go one idea or possibility, maybe yet was realized.
> 
> 
> De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
> Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Enviado: domingo, 4 de septiembre de 2011 20:24
> Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> 
>   
> Not too clear.  A diagram might help.
> 
> --- On Sat, 9/3/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> >From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@yahoo.com.ar>
> >Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 4:06 PM
> >
> >
> >  
> >Very interesting development of your concepts Lance.
> >I have a question I will try to develop a "trial and error" coming soon. What if from the tip of the deflector or baffle with some micrometer channel along said tip begins to close (closer to the rod) from 1 cm from the tip, with an initial length from that cm from the tip to the end of the curve. Got it?
> >regards
> >Silverio
> >
> >
> >De: Toby <kymarto123@...>
> >Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >Enviado: sábado, 3 de septiembre de 2011 5:21
> >Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> >
> >  
> > 
> >I'm interested in Lance's assertion that the "shape" of the pulse is important. What is this shape? I've never heard anything like this before. My understanding is the original "puff", as Benade calls it, becomes a wavefront which travels down the tube and back, as Lance says, to be reinforced by the next "puff" when it reaches the mpc tip. Since the reed is controlled by the air pressure in the tube, the timing can't help but be correct if the standing wave is created. The reed cycle is determined by the wave cycle (for the most part). 
> > 
> >What exactly, Lance, do you mean by "distortion"? What does it mean that the closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer-blowing the tone? It has always been my understanding that this is largely determined by the impedances of the tube, so how can the returning pulse, having traveled the length of the tube (whatever the impedance graph looks like) have a "shape" like the impulse coming from the reed tip? This explanation makes no sense to me. I had always thought we get stronger, freer-blowing tone when the impedances maxima of the tube are in close to harmonic ratios.
> > 
> >Benade states that baffle adjustments affect the tone by changing the way the reed moves when it is nearly closed--it has to do with Bernoulli forces which act on the reed as the space between reed and facing gets narrower. This kind of behavior has nothing to do with the returning pulse, rather it is aerodynamically determined by the pressure differential on the two sides of the reed and how it develops as the reed closes.
> > 
> >Research has shown that the oral cavity does act as an upstream resonator, but its main effects in controlling reed behavior are in special cases, such as pitch bending, bugling, and in the altissimo range. There appears to be very little effect in aligning resonances between the oral cavity and a significant frequency being played, at least according to research carried out at UNSW.
> > 
> >Toby
> >----- Original Message ----- 
> >>From: Silverio Potenza 
> >>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> >>Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:09 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all  
> >>Hello MartinMods, clear your explanation. Something is consistent with my drawings, apparently yes, if I understood there would be a backflow of air into, but not the sound? How important would then be the oral or buccal cavity of the player? as part of such molecular changes as I understand your writing.
> >>Thank you for participating
> >>Silverio
> >>
> >>
> >>De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
> >>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >>Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 18:36
> >>Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> >>
> >>  
> >>While there is a jet of air entering the mouthpiece while the reed is open, that brief jet of moving air dissipates after about the first 1/2 inch, so, we can really forget about it after that.  What is important to realize is, the air moves relatively very little.  It is the resultant energy moving from air molecule to air molecule that makes the sound.  
> >>
> >>In the saxophone (conical air columns) this high pressure energy pulse travels the length of the tube and reflects at the open end (or open tone hole) with an inversion - it becomes a low pressure pulse.  Other than the inversion, there is very little change to the shape of the pulse.  It travels back up the air column to the mouthpiece chamber, where the low pressure allows the reed to close (completely or close to it).  Due to the nature of conical air columns and the volume of the mouthpiece, there is a little delay before the pulse reflects at the reed, and it does so with another inversion.   It becomes a high pressure pulse again, and the reed opens, commencing a new cycle of the wave, reinforced by the new air jet's energy entering the mouthpiece.  
> >>
> >>For the saxophone to work at all, the shape of the reflected pulse at the reed must closely resemble the shape of the energy pulse generated by the air jet entering the mouthpiece chamber.  It must arrive (from double tube transit) and reflect without significant distortion.  The closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer blowing the tone.  Add distortion, and the sound becomes weaker for the same amount of input energy.  We experience resistance.  Excessive distortion, and the reed will just stay closed.
> >>
> >>So what mouthpiece characteristics cause distortion?  Wrong mouthpiece volume.  Wrong mouthpiece frequency.    Baffle shapes that generate pulses that are not sympathetic with the air column's resonance structure i.e., the air column can not conduct the pulse without distortion.  Any sharp edge or significant bore irregularity (e.g., a sharp window/ramp edge) will cause turbulence, which will create a distortion in the pulse.  
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--- On Fri, 9/2/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@yahoo.com.ar>
> >>>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> >>>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >>>Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 5:29 PM
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  
> >>>Hi Dan, thanks for your observation. I just graphics or pictures to motivate those who have more precise information to clarify some information that goes through the web. Logically sound waves can not and should be represented by straight lines, but we must also address how fast these waves old, there is an implicit relationship between air flow and velocity of the incident on the movement of the rod, which transforms fluejo in the sound wave. The higher the wave velocity (ie in the acute) occurs most righteous of the wave. Or am I wrong?
> >>>regards
> >>>Silverio
> >>>
> >>>De: "Letydan@..." <Letydan@...>
> >>>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >>>Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 10:03
> >>>Asunto: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> >>>
> >>>  
> >>>Hi Silverio,
> >>>3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight lines. Well... at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back and forth inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip area, that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip and baffle area. Good rails will do the rest.
> >>>All the best,
> >>>
> >>>Dan
> >>>
> >>>project designer
> >>>hsm-masterpiece.com
> >>>
> >>>--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004" <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> First of all let me say that i am not an expert in the field of mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer
> >>>> 
> >>>> I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play worse!!! - but then that is often how we learn.
> >>>> 
> >>>> The m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical elements combine to make your instrument speak.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Would someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very end of the m/p the tip edge.
> >>>> 
> >>>> If when sanding the curve too much material is removed the tip becomes a knife edge. Is it then necessary to sand/file the edge to put an edge of 1mm or so onto the tip end.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Best Wishes to All
> >>>> Peter Hepplewhite
> >>>> England UK
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@> wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Hello boys and girls
> >>>> > Let's talk about important details of the Mouthpieces.
> >>>> > I'm trying to understand certain relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities and materials. Some more successfully than others.
> >>>> > In the following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I probably know more about it?
> >>>> > I hope an interesting start, going from part to whole to understand based on our own experience the different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a rule.
> >>>> > Thanks to all
> >>>> > Silverio
> >>>> > From Patagonia Argentina
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>  
> 

This design is simple enough to test using some putty inside a mouthpiece.  
 
I predict that the sound will be bright, edgy (gritty)  and a little choked off from the baffle being a little too high.  But the player is part of the system the results will depend on how they blow, as well as the facing and tip opening.  

From: "kymarto123@....jp" <kymarto123@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 6:25 AM
Subject: Re:Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all


  
I can't imagine such a design being advantageous in any way. What's the thought behind the ugly bump?

Easy enough to test, though, with some chewing gum and a low-baffle piece...

--- Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:
> Here go one idea or possibility, maybe yet was realized.
> 
> 
> De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
> Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Enviado: domingo, 4 de septiembre de 2011 20:24
> Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> 
>   
> Not too clear.  A diagram might help.
> 
> --- On Sat, 9/3/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> >From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
> >Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 4:06 PM
> >
> >
> >  
> >Very interesting development of your concepts Lance.
> >I have a question I will try to develop a "trial and error" coming soon. What if from the tip of the deflector or baffle with some micrometer channel along said tip begins to close (closer to the rod) from 1 cm from the tip, with an initial length from that cm from the tip to the end of the curve. Got it?
> >regards
> >Silverio
> >
> >
> >De: Toby <kymarto123@...>
> >Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >Enviado: sábado, 3 de septiembre de 2011 5:21
> >Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> >
> >  
> > 
> >I'm interested in Lance's assertion that the "shape" of the pulse is important. What is this shape? I've never heard anything like this before. My understanding is the original "puff", as Benade calls it, becomes a wavefront which travels down the tube and back, as Lance says, to be reinforced by the next "puff" when it reaches the mpc tip. Since the reed is controlled by the air pressure in the tube, the timing can't help but be correct if the standing wave is created. The reed cycle is determined by the wave cycle (for the most part). 
> > 
> >What exactly, Lance, do you mean by "distortion"? What does it mean that the closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer-blowing the tone? It has always been my understanding that this is largely determined by the impedances of the tube, so how can the returning pulse, having traveled the length of the tube (whatever the impedance graph looks like) have a "shape" like the impulse coming from the reed tip? This explanation makes no sense to me. I had always thought we get stronger, freer-blowing tone when the impedances maxima of the tube are in close to harmonic ratios.
> > 
> >Benade states that baffle adjustments affect the tone by changing the way the reed moves when it is nearly closed--it has to do with Bernoulli forces which act on the reed as the space between reed and facing gets narrower. This kind of behavior has nothing to do with the returning pulse, rather it is aerodynamically determined by the pressure differential on the two sides of the reed and how it develops as the reed closes.
> > 
> >Research has shown that the oral cavity does act as an upstream resonator, but its main effects in controlling reed behavior are in special cases, such as pitch bending, bugling, and in the altissimo range. There appears to be very little effect in aligning resonances between the oral cavity and a significant frequency being played, at least according to research carried out at UNSW.
> > 
> >Toby
> >----- Original Message ----- 
> >>From: Silverio Potenza 
> >>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> >>Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:09 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all  
> >>Hello MartinMods, clear your explanation. Something is consistent with my drawings, apparently yes, if I understood there would be a backflow of air into, but not the sound? How important would then be the oral or buccal cavity of the player? as part of such molecular changes as I understand your writing.
> >>Thank you for participating
> >>Silverio
> >>
> >>
> >>De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
> >>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >>Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 18:36
> >>Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> >>
> >>  
> >>While there is a jet of air entering the mouthpiece while the reed is open, that brief jet of moving air dissipates after about the first 1/2 inch, so, we can really forget about it after that.  What is important to realize is, the air moves relatively very little.  It is the resultant energy moving from air molecule to air molecule that makes the sound.  
> >>
> >>In the saxophone (conical air columns) this high pressure energy pulse travels the length of the tube and reflects at the open end (or open tone hole) with an inversion - it becomes a low pressure pulse.  Other than the inversion, there is very little change to the shape of the pulse.  It travels back up the air column to the mouthpiece chamber, where the low pressure allows the reed to close (completely or close to it).  Due to the nature of conical air columns and the volume of the mouthpiece, there is a little delay before the pulse reflects at the reed, and it does so with another inversion.   It becomes a high pressure pulse again, and the reed opens, commencing a new cycle of the wave, reinforced by the new air jet's energy entering the mouthpiece.  
> >>
> >>For the saxophone to work at all, the shape of the reflected pulse at the reed must closely resemble the shape of the energy pulse generated by the air jet entering the mouthpiece chamber.  It must arrive (from double tube transit) and reflect without significant distortion.  The closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer blowing the tone.  Add distortion, and the sound becomes weaker for the same amount of input energy.  We experience resistance.  Excessive distortion, and the reed will just stay closed.
> >>
> >>So what mouthpiece characteristics cause distortion?  Wrong mouthpiece volume.  Wrong mouthpiece frequency.    Baffle shapes that generate pulses that are not sympathetic with the air column's resonance structure i.e., the air column can not conduct the pulse without distortion.  Any sharp edge or significant bore irregularity (e.g., a sharp window/ramp edge) will cause turbulence, which will create a distortion in the pulse.  
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--- On Fri, 9/2/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
> >>>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> >>>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >>>Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 5:29 PM
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  
> >>>Hi Dan, thanks for your observation. I just graphics or pictures to motivate those who have more precise information to clarify some information that goes through the web. Logically sound waves can not and should be represented by straight lines, but we must also address how fast these waves old, there is an implicit relationship between air flow and velocity of the incident on the movement of the rod, which transforms fluejo in the sound wave. The higher the wave velocity (ie in the acute) occurs most righteous of the wave. Or am I wrong?
> >>>regards
> >>>Silverio
> >>>
> >>>De: "Letydan@libero.it" <Letydan@...>
> >>>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >>>Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 10:03
> >>>Asunto: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> >>>
> >>>  
> >>>Hi Silverio,
> >>>3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight lines. Well... at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back and forth inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip area, that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip and baffle area. Good rails will do the rest.
> >>>All the best,
> >>>
> >>>Dan
> >>>
> >>>project designer
> >>>hsm-masterpiece.com
> >>>
> >>>--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004" <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> First of all let me say that i am not an expert in the field of mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer
> >>>> 
> >>>> I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play worse!!! - but then that is often how we learn.
> >>>> 
> >>>> The m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical elements combine to make your instrument speak.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Would someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very end of the m/p the tip edge.
> >>>> 
> >>>> If when sanding the curve too much material is removed the tip becomes a knife edge. Is it then necessary to sand/file the edge to put an edge of 1mm or so onto the tip end.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Best Wishes to All
> >>>> Peter Hepplewhite
> >>>> England UK
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@> wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Hello boys and girls
> >>>> > Let's talk about important details of the Mouthpieces.
> >>>> > I'm trying to understand certain relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities and materials. Some more successfully than others.
> >>>> > In the following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I probably know more about it?
> >>>> > I hope an interesting start, going from part to whole to understand based on our own experience the different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a rule.
> >>>> > Thanks to all
> >>>> > Silverio
> >>>> > From Patagonia Argentina
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> 
> 

I doubt you will gain anything by actually having the area under the baffle decrease so drastically across the positive curve of the bump. I vote for a rather dull, choked, thin sound (very low baffle under the tip = dull, decrease in area further back = choked and thin). A reverse curve on the baffle will, I think, interfere with the coupling of the pressure impulse at the reed coupling with the air column, especially at higher dynamics.

I have a couple of tenor pieces that I could build up like that, but I won't have time until the weekend.

--- On Tue, 2011/9/6, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:















 
 



  


    
      
      
      This design is simple enough to test using some putty inside a mouthpiece.  
 
I predict that the sound will be bright, edgy (gritty)  and a little choked off from the baffle being a little too high.  But the player is part of the system the results will depend on how they blow, as well as the facing and tip opening.  




From: "kymarto123@..." <kymarto123@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 6:25 AM
Subject: Re:Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all


  

I can't imagine such a design being advantageous in any way. What's the thought behind the ugly bump?

Easy enough to test, though, with some chewing gum and a low-baffle piece...

--- Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:
> Here go one idea or possibility, maybe yet was realized.
> 
> 
> De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
> Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Enviado: domingo, 4 de septiembre de 2011 20:24
> Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> 
>   
> Not too
 clear.  A diagram might help.
> 
> --- On Sat, 9/3/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:
> 
> 
> >From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
> >Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> >To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 4:06 PM
> >
> >
> >  
> >Very interesting development of your concepts Lance.
> >I have a question I will try to develop a "trial and error" coming soon. What if from the tip
 of the deflector or baffle with some micrometer channel along said tip begins to close (closer to the rod) from 1 cm from the tip, with an initial length from that cm from the tip to the end of the curve. Got it?
> >regards
> >Silverio
> >
> >
> >De: Toby <kymarto123@...>
> >Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >Enviado: sábado, 3 de septiembre de 2011 5:21
> >Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> >
> >  
> > 
> >I'm interested in Lance's assertion that the "shape" of the pulse is important. What is this shape? I've never heard anything like this before. My
 understanding is the original "puff", as Benade calls it, becomes a wavefront which travels down the tube and back, as Lance says, to be reinforced by the next "puff" when it reaches the mpc tip. Since the reed is controlled by the air pressure in the tube, the timing can't help but be correct if the standing wave is created. The reed cycle is determined by the wave cycle (for the most part). 
> > 
> >What exactly, Lance, do you mean by "distortion"? What does it mean that the closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer-blowing the tone? It has always been my understanding that this is largely determined by the impedances of the tube, so how can the returning pulse, having traveled the length of the tube (whatever the impedance graph looks like) have a "shape" like the impulse coming from the reed tip? This explanation makes no sense to me. I had always thought we get stronger, freer-blowing tone when the
 impedances maxima of the tube are in close to harmonic ratios.
> > 
> >Benade states that baffle adjustments affect the tone by changing the way the reed moves when it is nearly closed--it has to do with Bernoulli forces which act on the reed as the space between reed and facing gets narrower. This kind of behavior has nothing to do with the returning pulse, rather it is aerodynamically determined by the pressure differential on the two sides of the reed and how it develops as the reed closes.
> > 
> >Research has shown that the oral cavity does act as an upstream resonator, but its main effects in controlling reed behavior are in special cases, such as pitch bending, bugling, and in the altissimo range. There appears to be very little effect in aligning resonances between the oral cavity and a significant frequency being played, at least according to research carried out at UNSW.
> > 
>
 >Toby
> >----- Original Message ----- 
> >>From: Silverio Potenza 
> >>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> >>Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:09 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all  
> >>Hello MartinMods, clear your explanation. Something is consistent with my drawings, apparently yes, if I understood there would be a backflow of air into, but not the sound? How important would then be the oral or buccal cavity of the player? as part of such molecular changes as I understand your writing.
> >>Thank you for participating
> >>Silverio
> >>
> >>
> >>De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
> >>Para: MouthpieceWork@...m
> >>Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 18:36
> >>Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> >>
> >>  
> >>While there is a jet of air entering the mouthpiece while the reed is open, that brief jet of moving air dissipates after about the first 1/2 inch, so, we can really forget about it after that.  What is important to realize is, the air moves relatively very little.  It is the resultant energy moving from air molecule to air molecule that makes the sound.  
> >>
> >>In the saxophone (conical air columns) this high pressure energy pulse travels the length of the tube
 and reflects at the open end (or open tone hole) with an inversion - it becomes a low pressure pulse.  Other than the inversion, there is very little change to the shape of the pulse.  It travels back up the air column to the mouthpiece chamber, where the low pressure allows the reed to close (completely or close to it).  Due to the nature of conical air columns and the volume of the mouthpiece, there is a little delay before the pulse reflects at the reed, and it does so with another inversion.   It becomes a high pressure pulse again, and the reed opens, commencing a new cycle of the wave, reinforced by the new air jet's energy entering the mouthpiece.  
> >>
> >>For the saxophone to work at all, the shape of the reflected pulse at the reed must closely resemble the shape of the energy pulse generated by the air jet entering the mouthpiece chamber.  It must arrive (from double tube transit)
 and reflect without significant distortion.  The closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer blowing the tone.  Add distortion, and the sound becomes weaker for the same amount of input energy.  We experience resistance.  Excessive distortion, and the reed will just stay closed.
> >>
> >>So what mouthpiece characteristics cause distortion?  Wrong mouthpiece volume.  Wrong mouthpiece frequency.    Baffle shapes that generate pulses that are not sympathetic with the air column's resonance structure i.e., the air column can not conduct the pulse without distortion.  Any sharp edge or significant bore irregularity (e.g., a sharp window/ramp edge) will cause turbulence, which will create a distortion in the pulse.  
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--- On Fri, 9/2/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@yahoo.com.ar>
> >>>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> >>>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >>>Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 5:29 PM
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  
> >>>Hi Dan, thanks for your observation. I just graphics or pictures to motivate those who have more precise information to clarify some information that goes through the web.
 Logically sound waves can not and should be represented by straight lines, but we must also address how fast these waves old, there is an implicit relationship between air flow and velocity of the incident on the movement of the rod, which transforms fluejo in the sound wave. The higher the wave velocity (ie in the acute) occurs most righteous of the wave. Or am I wrong?
> >>>regards
> >>>Silverio
> >>>
> >>>De: "Letydan@..." <Letydan@...>
> >>>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >>>Enviado: viernes, 2 de
 septiembre de 2011 10:03
> >>>Asunto: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> >>>
> >>>  
> >>>Hi Silverio,
> >>>3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight lines. Well... at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back and forth inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip area, that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip and baffle area. Good rails will do the rest.
> >>>All the best,
> >>>
> >>>Dan
> >>>
> >>>project designer
> >>>hsm-masterpiece.com
> >>>
> >>>--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004" <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:
>
 >>>>
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> First of all let me say that i am not an expert in the field of mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer
> >>>> 
> >>>> I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play worse!!! - but then that is often how we learn.
> >>>> 
> >>>> The m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical elements combine to make your instrument speak.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Would someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very end of the m/p the tip edge.
> >>>> 
> >>>> If when sanding the curve too much material is removed the tip becomes a knife edge. Is it then necessary to sand/file the edge to put an edge of 1mm or so onto the tip end.
>
 >>>> 
> >>>> Best Wishes to All
> >>>> Peter Hepplewhite
> >>>> England UK
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@> wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Hello boys and girls
> >>>> > Let's talk about important details of the Mouthpieces.
> >>>> > I'm trying to understand certain relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities and materials. Some more successfully than others.
> >>>> > In the following graphs detail the places where they settle
 degrees of resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I probably know more about it?
> >>>> > I hope an interesting start, going from part to whole to understand based on our own experience the different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a rule.
> >>>> > Thanks to all
> >>>> > Silverio
> >>>> > From Patagonia Argentina
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> 
> 




    
     

    
    


 



  

Hi Silverio,
I am lookong for a manufacturer to make my mew mouthpiece line.Do you have anyone there?
Peace


Mikole E. Kaar 

(702) 812-1211
 

--- On Tue, 9/6/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:


From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all [1 Attachment]
To: "MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 1:09 AM


  


[Attachment(s) from Silverio Potenza included below] 


Here go one idea or possibility, maybe yet was realized.





De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: domingo, 4 de septiembre de 2011 20:24
Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all

  





Not too clear.  A diagram might help.

--- On Sat, 9/3/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:


From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 4:06 PM


  

Very interesting development of your concepts Lance.
I have a question I will try to develop a "trial and error" coming soon. What if from the tip of the deflector or baffle with some micrometer channel along said tip begins to close (closer to the rod) from 1 cm from the tip, with an initial length from that cm from the tip to the end of the curve. Got it?
regards
Silverio




De: Toby <kymarto123@...>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: sábado, 3 de septiembre de 2011 5:21
Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all

  

 
I'm interested in Lance's assertion that the "shape" of the pulse is important. What is this shape? I've never heard anything like this before. My understanding is the original "puff", as Benade calls it, becomes a wavefront which travels down the tube and back, as Lance says, to be reinforced by the next "puff" when it reaches the mpc tip. Since the reed is controlled by the air pressure in the tube, the timing can't help but be correct if the standing wave is created. The reed cycle is determined by the wave cycle (for the most part). 
 
What exactly, Lance, do you mean by "distortion"? What does it mean that the closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer-blowing the tone? It has always been my understanding that this is largely determined by the impedances of the tube, so how can the returning pulse, having traveled the length of the tube (whatever the impedance graph looks like) have a "shape" like the impulse coming from the reed tip? This explanation makes no sense to me. I had always thought we get stronger, freer-blowing tone when the impedances maxima of the tube are in close to harmonic ratios.
 
Benade states that baffle adjustments affect the tone by changing the way the reed moves when it is nearly closed--it has to do with Bernoulli forces which act on the reed as the space between reed and facing gets narrower. This kind of behavior has nothing to do with the returning pulse, rather it is aerodynamically determined by the pressure differential on the two sides of the reed and how it develops as the reed closes.
 
Research has shown that the oral cavity does act as an upstream resonator, but its main effects in controlling reed behavior are in special cases, such as pitch bending, bugling, and in the altissimo range. There appears to be very little effect in aligning resonances between the oral cavity and a significant frequency being played, at least according to research carried out at UNSW.
 
Toby

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Silverio Potenza 
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
  

Hello MartinMods, clear your explanation. Something is consistent with my drawings, apparently yes, if I understood there would be a backflow of air into, but not the sound? How important would then be the oral or buccal cavity of the player? as part of such molecular changes as I understand your writing.
Thank you for participating
Silverio




De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@yahoo.com>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 18:36
Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all

  





While there is a jet of air entering the mouthpiece while the reed is open, that brief jet of moving air dissipates after about the first 1/2 inch, so, we can really forget about it after that.  What is important to realize is, the air moves relatively very little.  It is the resultant energy moving from air molecule to air molecule that makes the sound.  

In the saxophone (conical air columns) this high pressure energy pulse travels the length of the tube and reflects at the open end (or open tone hole) with an inversion - it becomes a low pressure pulse.  Other than the inversion, there is very little change to the shape of the pulse.  It travels back up the air column to the mouthpiece chamber, where the low pressure allows the reed to close (completely or close to it).  Due to the nature of conical air columns and the volume of the mouthpiece, there is a little delay before the pulse reflects at the reed, and it does so with another inversion.   It becomes a high pressure pulse again, and the reed opens, commencing a new cycle of the wave, reinforced by the new air jet's energy entering the mouthpiece.  

For the saxophone to work at all, the shape of the reflected pulse at the reed must closely resemble the shape of the energy pulse generated by the air jet entering the mouthpiece chamber.  It must arrive (from double tube transit) and reflect without significant distortion.  The closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer blowing the tone.  Add distortion, and the sound becomes weaker for the same amount of input energy.  We experience resistance.  Excessive distortion, and the reed will just stay closed.

So what mouthpiece characteristics cause distortion?  Wrong mouthpiece volume.  Wrong mouthpiece frequency.    Baffle shapes that generate pulses that are not sympathetic with the air column's resonance structure i.e., the air column can not conduct the pulse without distortion.  Any sharp edge or significant bore irregularity (e.g., a sharp window/ramp edge) will cause turbulence, which will create a distortion in the pulse.  




--- On Fri, 9/2/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:


From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 5:29 PM


  

Hi Dan, thanks for your observation. I just graphics or pictures to motivate those who have more precise information to clarify some information that goes through the web. Logically sound waves can not and should be represented by straight lines, but we must also address how fast these waves old, there is an implicit relationship between air flow and velocity of the incident on the movement of the rod, which transforms fluejo in the sound wave. The higher the wave velocity (ie in the acute) occurs most righteous of the wave. Or am I wrong?
regards
Silverio



De: "Letydan@..." <Letydan@...>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 10:03
Asunto: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all

  

Hi Silverio,
3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight lines. Well... at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back and forth inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip area, that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip and baffle area. Good rails will do the rest.
All the best,

Dan

project designer
hsm-masterpiece.com

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004" <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First of all let me say that i am not an expert in the field of mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer
> 
> I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play worse!!! - but then that is often how we learn.
> 
> The m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical elements combine to make your instrument speak.
> 
> Would someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very end of the m/p the tip edge.
> 
> If when sanding the curve too much material is removed the tip becomes a knife edge. Is it then necessary to sand/file the edge to put an edge of 1mm or so onto the tip end.
> 
> Best Wishes to All
> Peter Hepplewhite
> England UK
> 
> 
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello boys and girls
> > Let's talk about important details of the Mouthpieces.
> > I'm trying to understand certain relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities and materials. Some more successfully than others.
> > In the following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I probably know more about it?
> > I hope an interesting start, going from part to whole to understand based on our own experience the different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a rule.
> > Thanks to all
> > Silverio
> > From Patagonia Argentina
> >
>

Hi Mikole, what material would be your new line of mouthpiece for what type or genre of music?

 

De: Mikole Kaar <mikolekaar@...>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: martes, 6 de septiembre de 2011 13:19
Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all

  
Hi Silverio,
I am lookong for a manufacturer to make my mew mouthpiece line.Do you have anyone there?
Peace
Mikole E. Kaar 

(702) 812-1211


--- On Tue, 9/6/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:


>From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all [1 Attachment]
>To: "MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
>Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 1:09 AM
>
>
>  
>Here go one idea or possibility, maybe yet was realized.
>
>De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>Enviado: domingo, 4 de septiembre de 2011 20:24
>Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>
>  
>Not too clear.  A diagram might help.
>
>--- On Sat, 9/3/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:
>
>
>>From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
>>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 4:06 PM
>>
>>
>>  
>>Very interesting development of your concepts Lance.I have a question I will try to develop a "trial and error" coming soon. What if from the tip of the deflector or baffle with some micrometer channel along said tip begins to close (closer to the rod) from 1 cm from the tip, with an initial length from that cm from the tip to the end of the curve. Got it?regardsSilverio
>>De: Toby <kymarto123@...>
>>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>Enviado: sábado, 3 de septiembre de 2011 5:21
>>Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>
>>  
>> 
>>I'm interested in Lance's assertion that the "shape" of the pulse is important. What is this shape? I've never heard anything like this before. My understanding is the original "puff", as Benade calls it, becomes a wavefront which travels down the tube and back, as Lance says, to be reinforced by the next "puff" when it reaches the mpc tip. Since the reed is controlled by the air pressure in the tube, the timing can't help but be correct if the standing wave is created. The reed cycle is determined by the wave cycle (for the most part). 
>> 
>>What exactly, Lance, do you mean by "distortion"? What does it mean that the closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer-blowing the tone? It has always been my understanding that this is largely determined by the impedances of the tube, so how can the returning pulse, having traveled the length of the tube (whatever the impedance graph looks like) have a "shape" like the impulse coming from the reed tip? This explanation makes no sense to me. I had always thought we get stronger, freer-blowing tone when the impedances maxima of the tube are in close to harmonic ratios.
>> 
>>Benade states that baffle adjustments affect the tone by changing the way the reed moves when it is nearly closed--it has to do with Bernoulli forces which act on the reed as the space between reed and facing gets narrower. This kind of behavior has nothing to do with the returning pulse, rather it is aerodynamically determined by the pressure differential on the two sides of the reed and how it develops as the reed closes.
>> 
>>Research has shown that the oral cavity does act as an upstream resonator, but its main effects in controlling reed behavior are in special cases, such as pitch bending, bugling, and in the altissimo range. There appears to be very little effect in aligning resonances between the oral cavity and a significant frequency being played, at least according to research carried out at UNSW.
>> 
>>Toby
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>>From: Silverio Potenza 
>>>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
>>>Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:09 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all  
>>>Hello MartinMods, clear your explanation. Something is consistent with my drawings, apparently yes, if I understood there would be a backflow of air into, but not the sound? How important would then be the oral or buccal cavity of the player? as part of such molecular changes as I understand your writing.Thank you for participatingSilverio
>>>De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
>>>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>>Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 18:36
>>>Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>>
>>>  
>>>While there is a jet of air entering the mouthpiece while the reed is open, that brief jet of moving air dissipates after about the first 1/2 inch, so, we can really forget about it after that.  What is important to realize is, the air moves relatively very little.  It is the resultant energy moving from air molecule to air molecule that makes the sound.  
>>>
>>>In the saxophone (conical air columns) this high pressure energy pulse travels the length of the tube and reflects at the open end (or open tone hole) with an inversion - it becomes a low pressure pulse.  Other than the inversion, there is very little change to the shape of the pulse.  It travels back up the air column to the mouthpiece chamber, where the low pressure allows the reed to close (completely or close to it).  Due to the nature of conical air columns and the volume of the mouthpiece, there is a little delay before the pulse reflects at the reed, and it does so with another inversion.   It becomes a high pressure pulse again, and the reed opens, commencing a new cycle of the wave, reinforced by the new air jet's energy entering the mouthpiece.  
>>>
>>>For the saxophone to work at all, the shape of the reflected pulse at the reed must closely resemble the shape of the energy pulse generated by the air jet entering the mouthpiece chamber.  It must arrive (from double tube transit) and reflect without significant distortion.  The closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer blowing the tone.  Add distortion, and the sound becomes weaker for the same amount of input energy.  We experience resistance.  Excessive distortion, and the reed will just stay closed.
>>>
>>>So what mouthpiece characteristics cause distortion?  Wrong mouthpiece volume.  Wrong mouthpiece frequency.    Baffle shapes that generate pulses that are not sympathetic with the air column's resonance structure i.e., the air column can not conduct the pulse without distortion.  Any sharp edge or significant bore irregularity (e.g., a sharp window/ramp edge) will cause turbulence, which will create a distortion in the pulse.  
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--- On Fri, 9/2/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
>>>>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>>>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>>>Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 5:29 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>Hi Dan, thanks for your observation. I just graphics or pictures to motivate those who have more precise information to clarify some information that goes through the web. Logically sound waves can not and should be represented by straight lines, but we must also address how fast these waves old, there is an implicit relationship between air flow and velocity of the incident on the movement of the rod, which transforms fluejo in the sound wave. The higher the wave velocity (ie in the acute) occurs most righteous of the wave. Or am I wrong?regardsSilverio
>>>>De: "Letydan@libero.it" <Letydan@...>
>>>>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>>>Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 10:03
>>>>Asunto: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>Hi Silverio,3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight lines. Well... at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back and forth inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip area, that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip and baffle area. Good rails will do the rest.All the best,Danproject designerhsm-masterpiece.com--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004" <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:>> > > > > First of all let me say that i am not an expert in the field of mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer> > I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play worse!!! - but then that is often how we learn.> > The m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical elements combine to make your instrument speak.> > Would someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very end of the m/p the tip edge.> > If when sanding the curve too much material is removed
 the tip becomes a knife edge. Is it then necessary to sand/file the edge to put an edge of 1mm or so onto the tip end.> > Best Wishes to All> Peter Hepplewhite> England UK> > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@> wrote:> >> > Hello boys and girls> > Let's talk about important details of the Mouthpieces.> > I'm trying to understand certain relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities and materials. Some more successfully than others.> > In the following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I probably know more about it?> > I hope an interesting start, going from part to whole to understand based on our own experience the different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a rule.>
 > Thanks to all> > Silverio> > From Patagonia Argentina> >>   

I think Babbitt, Bari, Theo Wanne,  and Runyon all do outside  
manufacturing, or have done so in the recent past




On Sep 6, 2011, at 11:19 AM, Mikole Kaar wrote:

>
> Hi Silverio,
> I am lookong for a manufacturer to make my mew mouthpiece line.Do  
> you have anyone there?
> Peace
>
> Mikole E. Kaar
>
> (702) 812-1211
>
>
>
> --- On Tue, 9/6/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:
>
> From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@....ar>
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all [1  
> Attachment]
> To: "MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 1:09 AM
>
>
> Here go one idea or possibility, maybe yet was realized.
>
> De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
> Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Enviado: domingo, 4 de septiembre de 2011 20:24
> Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>
> Not too clear.  A diagram might help.
>
> --- On Sat, 9/3/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:
>
> From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 4:06 PM
>
>
> Very interesting development of your concepts Lance.
> I have a question I will try to develop a "trial and error" coming  
> soon. What if from the tip of the deflector or baffle with some  
> micrometer channel along said tip begins to close (closer to the  
> rod) from 1 cm from the tip, with an initial length from that cm  
> from the tip to the end of the curve. Got it?
> regards
> Silverio
>
> De: Toby <kymarto123@...>
> Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Enviado: sábado, 3 de septiembre de 2011 5:21
> Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>
> 
> I'm interested in Lance's assertion that the "shape" of the pulse is  
> important. What is this shape? I've never heard anything like this  
> before. My understanding is the original "puff", as Benade calls it,  
> becomes a wavefront which travels down the tube and back, as Lance  
> says, to be reinforced by the next "puff" when it reaches the mpc  
> tip. Since the reed is controlled by the air pressure in the tube,  
> the timing can't help but be correct if the standing wave is  
> created. The reed cycle is determined by the wave cycle (for the  
> most part).
>
> What exactly, Lance, do you mean by "distortion"? What does it mean  
> that the closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger,  
> freer-blowing the tone? It has always been my understanding that  
> this is largely determined by the impedances of the tube, so how can  
> the returning pulse, having traveled the length of the tube  
> (whatever the impedance graph looks like) have a "shape" like the  
> impulse coming from the reed tip? This explanation makes no sense to  
> me. I had always thought we get stronger, freer-blowing tone when  
> the impedances maxima of the tube are in close to harmonic ratios.
>
> Benade states that baffle adjustments affect the tone by changing  
> the way the reed moves when it is nearly closed--it has to do with  
> Bernoulli forces which act on the reed as the space between reed and  
> facing gets narrower. This kind of behavior has nothing to do with  
> the returning pulse, rather it is aerodynamically determined by the  
> pressure differential on the two sides of the reed and how it  
> develops as the reed closes.
>
> Research has shown that the oral cavity does act as an upstream  
> resonator, but its main effects in controlling reed behavior are in  
> special cases, such as pitch bending, bugling, and in the altissimo  
> range. There appears to be very little effect in aligning resonances  
> between the oral cavity and a significant frequency being played, at  
> least according to research carried out at UNSW.
>
> Toby
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Silverio Potenza
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>
> Hello MartinMods, clear your explanation. Something is consistent  
> with my drawings, apparently yes, if I understood there would be a  
> backflow of air into, but not the sound? How important would then be  
> the oral or buccal cavity of the player? as part of such molecular  
> changes as I understand your writing.
> Thank you for participating
> Silverio
>
> De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
> Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 18:36
> Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>
> While there is a jet of air entering the mouthpiece while the reed  
> is open, that brief jet of moving air dissipates after about the  
> first 1/2 inch, so, we can really forget about it after that.  What  
> is important to realize is, the air moves relatively very little.   
> It is the resultant energy moving from air molecule to air molecule  
> that makes the sound.
>
> In the saxophone (conical air columns) this high pressure energy  
> pulse travels the length of the tube and reflects at the open end  
> (or open tone hole) with an inversion - it becomes a low pressure  
> pulse.  Other than the inversion, there is very little change to the  
> shape of the pulse.  It travels back up the air column to the  
> mouthpiece chamber, where the low pressure allows the reed to close  
> (completely or close to it).  Due to the nature of conical air  
> columns and the volume of the mouthpiece, there is a little delay  
> before the pulse reflects at the reed, and it does so with another  
> inversion.   It becomes a high pressure pulse again, and the reed  
> opens, commencing a new cycle of the wave, reinforced by the new air  
> jet's energy entering the mouthpiece.
>
> For the saxophone to work at all, the shape of the reflected pulse  
> at the reed must closely resemble the shape of the energy pulse  
> generated by the air jet entering the mouthpiece chamber.  It must  
> arrive (from double tube transit) and reflect without significant  
> distortion.  The closer the combining pulses are to identical, the  
> stronger, freer blowing the tone.  Add distortion, and the sound  
> becomes weaker for the same amount of input energy.  We experience  
> resistance.  Excessive distortion, and the reed will just stay closed.
>
> So what mouthpiece characteristics cause distortion?  Wrong  
> mouthpiece volume.  Wrong mouthpiece frequency.    Baffle shapes  
> that generate pulses that are not sympathetic with the air column's  
> resonance structure i.e., the air column can not conduct the pulse  
> without distortion.  Any sharp edge or significant bore irregularity  
> (e.g., a sharp window/ramp edge) will cause turbulence, which will  
> create a distortion in the pulse.
>
>
>
>
> --- On Fri, 9/2/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:
>
> From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 5:29 PM
>
>
> Hi Dan, thanks for your observation. I just graphics or pictures to  
> motivate those who have more precise information to clarify some  
> information that goes through the web. Logically sound waves can not  
> and should be represented by straight lines, but we must also  
> address how fast these waves old, there is an implicit relationship  
> between air flow and velocity of the incident on the movement of the  
> rod, which transforms fluejo in the sound wave. The higher the wave  
> velocity (ie in the acute) occurs most righteous of the wave. Or am  
> I wrong?
> regards
> Silverio
> De: "Letydan@..." <Letydan@...>
> Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 10:03
> Asunto: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>
> Hi Silverio,
> 3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight lines. Well...  
> at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back and forth  
> inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip area,  
> that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip and  
> baffle area. Good rails will do the rest.
> All the best,
>
> Dan
>
> project designer
> hsm-masterpiece.com
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004"  
> <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > First of all let me say that i am not an expert in the field of  
> mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer
> >
> > I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play worse!!! -  
> but then that is often how we learn.
> >
> > The m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical  
> elements combine to make your instrument speak.
> >
> > Would someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the  
> very end of the m/p the tip edge.
> >
> > If when sanding the curve too much material is removed the tip  
> becomes a knife edge. Is it then necessary to sand/file the edge to  
> put an edge of 1mm or so onto the tip end.
> >
> > Best Wishes to All
> > Peter Hepplewhite
> > England UK
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio Potenza  
> <silpopaar@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello boys and girls
> > > Let's talk about important details of the Mouthpieces.
> > > I'm trying to understand certain relationships in the various  
> designs and solutions that I have seen in the daily practice of  
> intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities and materials. Some  
> more successfully than others.
> > > In the following graphs detail the places where they settle  
> degrees of resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your  
> opinion that I probably know more about it?
> > > I hope an interesting start, going from part to whole to  
> understand based on our own experience the different responses by  
> the mouthpiece on the basis of our interventions. Rule is up to us  
> what the best options as a rule.
> > > Thanks to all
> > > Silverio
> > > From Patagonia Argentina
> > >
> >
>
>
> 

Silverio,

The reed tip and first 3/8" of the baffle already form a type of venturi, after which, the air jet dissipates.  At the location of your secondary venturi, we probably need only concern ourselves with the transverse pressure wave rather than a volume of moving air, and as such, this obstruction to the wave in both directions will probably function as a pretty good muffler baffle :-)

Lance


--- On Tue, 9/6/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:

From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@....ar>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all [1 Attachment]
To: "MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 8:09 AM







 



  


    
      
              
        [Attachment(s) from Silverio Potenza included below]
        
      
      Here go one idea or possibility, maybe yet was realized.





De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: domingo, 4 de septiembre de 2011 20:24
Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
 
  





Not too clear.  A diagram might help.

--- On Sat, 9/3/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:


From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@....ar>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 4:06 PM


  

Very interesting development of your concepts Lance.
I have a question I will try to develop a "trial and error" coming soon. What if from the tip of the deflector or baffle with some micrometer channel along said tip begins to close (closer to the rod) from 1 cm from the tip, with an initial length from that cm from the tip to the end of the curve. Got it?
regards
Silverio




De: Toby <kymarto123@...>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: sábado, 3 de septiembre de 2011 5:21
Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
 
  

 
I'm interested in Lance's assertion that the "shape" of the pulse is important. What is this shape? I've never heard anything like this before. My understanding is the original "puff", as Benade calls it, becomes a wavefront which travels down the tube and back, as Lance says, to be reinforced by the next "puff" when it reaches the mpc tip. Since the reed is controlled by the air pressure in the tube, the timing can't help but be correct if the standing wave is created. The reed cycle is determined by the wave cycle (for the most part). 
 
What exactly, Lance, do you mean by "distortion"? What does it mean that the closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer-blowing the tone? It has always been my understanding that this is largely determined by the impedances of the tube, so how can the returning pulse, having traveled the length of the tube (whatever the impedance graph looks like) have a "shape" like the impulse coming from the reed tip? This explanation makes no sense to me. I had always thought we get stronger, freer-blowing tone when the impedances maxima of the tube are in close to harmonic ratios.
 
Benade states that baffle adjustments affect the tone by changing the way the reed moves when it is nearly closed--it has to do with Bernoulli forces which act on the reed as the space between reed and facing gets narrower. This kind of behavior has nothing to do with the returning pulse, rather it is aerodynamically determined by the pressure differential on the two sides of the reed and how it develops as the reed closes.
 
Research has shown that the oral cavity does act as an upstream resonator, but its main effects in controlling reed behavior are in special cases, such as pitch bending, bugling, and in the altissimo range. There appears to be very little effect in aligning resonances between the oral cavity and a significant frequency being played, at least according to research carried out at UNSW.
 
Toby

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Silverio Potenza 
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
  

Hello MartinMods, clear your explanation. Something is consistent with my drawings, apparently yes, if I understood there would be a backflow of air into, but not the sound? How important would then be the oral or buccal cavity of the player? as part of such molecular changes as I understand your writing.
Thank you for participating
Silverio




De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 18:36
Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
 
  





While there is a jet of air entering the mouthpiece while the reed is open, that brief jet of moving air dissipates after about the first 1/2 inch, so, we can really forget about it after that.  What is important to realize is, the air moves relatively very little.  It is the resultant energy moving from air molecule to air molecule that makes the sound.  

In the saxophone (conical air columns) this high pressure energy pulse travels the length of the tube and reflects at the open end (or open tone hole) with an inversion - it becomes a low pressure pulse.  Other than the inversion, there is very little change to the shape of the pulse.  It travels back up the air column to the mouthpiece chamber, where the low pressure allows the reed to close (completely or close to it).  Due to the nature of conical air columns and the volume of the mouthpiece, there is a little delay before the pulse reflects at the
 reed, and it does so with another inversion.   It becomes a high pressure pulse again, and the reed opens, commencing a new cycle of the wave, reinforced by the new air jet's energy entering the mouthpiece.  

For the saxophone to work at all, the shape of the reflected pulse at the reed must closely resemble the shape of the energy pulse generated by the air jet entering the mouthpiece chamber.  It must arrive (from double tube transit) and reflect without significant distortion.  The closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer blowing the tone.  Add distortion, and the sound becomes weaker for the same amount of input energy.  We experience resistance.  Excessive distortion, and the reed will just stay closed.

So what mouthpiece characteristics cause distortion?  Wrong mouthpiece volume.  Wrong mouthpiece frequency.    Baffle shapes that generate pulses that
 are not sympathetic with the air column's resonance structure i.e., the air column can not conduct the pulse without distortion.  Any sharp edge or significant bore irregularity (e.g., a sharp window/ramp edge) will cause turbulence, which will create a distortion in the pulse.  




--- On Fri, 9/2/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:


From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 5:29 PM


  

Hi Dan, thanks for your observation. I just graphics or pictures to motivate those who have more precise information to clarify some information that goes through the web. Logically sound waves can not and should be represented by straight lines, but we must also address how fast these waves old, there is an implicit relationship between air flow and velocity of the incident on the movement of the rod, which transforms fluejo in the sound wave. The higher the wave velocity (ie in the acute) occurs most righteous of the wave. Or am I wrong?
regards
Silverio



De: "Letydan@..." <Letydan@...>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 10:03
Asunto: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
 
  

Hi Silverio,
3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight lines. Well... at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back and forth inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip area, that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip and baffle area. Good rails will do the rest.
All the best,

Dan

project designer
hsm-masterpiece.com

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004" <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First of all let me say that i am not an expert in the field of mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer
> 
> I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play worse!!! - but then that is often how we learn.
> 
> The m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical elements combine to make your instrument speak.
> 
> Would someone
 please exlain to me the design considerations of the very end of the m/p the tip edge.
> 
> If when sanding the curve too much material is removed the tip becomes a knife edge. Is it then necessary to sand/file the edge to put an edge of 1mm or so onto the tip end.
> 
> Best Wishes to All
> Peter Hepplewhite
> England UK
> 
> 
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello boys and girls
> > Let's talk about important details of the Mouthpieces.
> > I'm trying to understand certain relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities and materials. Some more successfully than others.
> > In the following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of resistance and fluidity of the
 sound wave. What is your opinion that I probably know more about it?
> > I hope an interesting start, going from part to whole to understand based on our own experience the different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a rule.
> > Thanks to all
> > Silverio
> > From Patagonia Argentina
> >
>

 

    
     

    
    


 



  

Silver plated pieces on the line of Guardala and Dukoff.


Mikole E. Kaar 

(702) 812-1211
 

--- On Tue, 9/6/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:


From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
To: "MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 12:22 PM


  





Hi Mikole, what material would be your new line of mouthpiece for what type or genre of music?

 




De: Mikole Kaar <mikolekaar@...>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: martes, 6 de septiembre de 2011 13:19
Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all

  






Hi Silverio,
I am lookong for a manufacturer to make my mew mouthpiece line.Do you have anyone there?
Peace
Mikole E. Kaar 

(702) 812-1211
 

--- On Tue, 9/6/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:


From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all [1 Attachment]
To: "MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 1:09 AM


  



Here go one idea or possibility, maybe yet was realized.




De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: domingo, 4 de septiembre de 2011 20:24
Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all

  





Not too clear.  A diagram might help.

--- On Sat, 9/3/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:


From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 4:06 PM


  

Very interesting development of your concepts Lance. I have a question I will try to develop a "trial and error" coming soon. What if from the tip of the deflector or baffle with some micrometer channel along said tip begins to close (closer to the rod) from 1 cm from the tip, with an initial length from that cm from the tip to the end of the curve. Got it? regards Silverio


De: Toby <kymarto123@....jp>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: sábado, 3 de septiembre de 2011 5:21
Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all

  

 
I'm interested in Lance's assertion that the "shape" of the pulse is important. What is this shape? I've never heard anything like this before. My understanding is the original "puff", as Benade calls it, becomes a wavefront which travels down the tube and back, as Lance says, to be reinforced by the next "puff" when it reaches the mpc tip. Since the reed is controlled by the air pressure in the tube, the timing can't help but be correct if the standing wave is created. The reed cycle is determined by the wave cycle (for the most part). 
 
What exactly, Lance, do you mean by "distortion"? What does it mean that the closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer-blowing the tone? It has always been my understanding that this is largely determined by the impedances of the tube, so how can the returning pulse, having traveled the length of the tube (whatever the impedance graph looks like) have a "shape" like the impulse coming from the reed tip? This explanation makes no sense to me. I had always thought we get stronger, freer-blowing tone when the impedances maxima of the tube are in close to harmonic ratios.
 
Benade states that baffle adjustments affect the tone by changing the way the reed moves when it is nearly closed--it has to do with Bernoulli forces which act on the reed as the space between reed and facing gets narrower. This kind of behavior has nothing to do with the returning pulse, rather it is aerodynamically determined by the pressure differential on the two sides of the reed and how it develops as the reed closes.
 
Research has shown that the oral cavity does act as an upstream resonator, but its main effects in controlling reed behavior are in special cases, such as pitch bending, bugling, and in the altissimo range. There appears to be very little effect in aligning resonances between the oral cavity and a significant frequency being played, at least according to research carried out at UNSW.
 
Toby

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Silverio Potenza 
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
  

Hello MartinMods, clear your explanation. Something is consistent with my drawings, apparently yes, if I understood there would be a backflow of air into, but not the sound? How important would then be the oral or buccal cavity of the player? as part of such molecular changes as I understand your writing. Thank you for participating Silverio


De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 18:36
Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all

  





While there is a jet of air entering the mouthpiece while the reed is open, that brief jet of moving air dissipates after about the first 1/2 inch, so, we can really forget about it after that.  What is important to realize is, the air moves relatively very little.  It is the resultant energy moving from air molecule to air molecule that makes the sound.  

In the saxophone (conical air columns) this high pressure energy pulse travels the length of the tube and reflects at the open end (or open tone hole) with an inversion - it becomes a low pressure pulse.  Other than the inversion, there is very little change to the shape of the pulse.  It travels back up the air column to the mouthpiece chamber, where the low pressure allows the reed to close (completely or close to it).  Due to the nature of conical air columns and the volume of the mouthpiece, there is a little delay before the pulse reflects at the reed, and it does so with another inversion.   It becomes a high pressure pulse again, and the reed opens, commencing a new cycle of the wave, reinforced by the new air jet's energy entering the mouthpiece.  

For the saxophone to work at all, the shape of the reflected pulse at the reed must closely resemble the shape of the energy pulse generated by the air jet entering the mouthpiece chamber.  It must arrive (from double tube transit) and reflect without significant distortion.  The closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer blowing the tone.  Add distortion, and the sound becomes weaker for the same amount of input energy.  We experience resistance.  Excessive distortion, and the reed will just stay closed.

So what mouthpiece characteristics cause distortion?  Wrong mouthpiece volume.  Wrong mouthpiece frequency.    Baffle shapes that generate pulses that are not sympathetic with the air column's resonance structure i.e., the air column can not conduct the pulse without distortion.  Any sharp edge or significant bore irregularity (e.g., a sharp window/ramp edge) will cause turbulence, which will create a distortion in the pulse.  




--- On Fri, 9/2/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:


From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 5:29 PM


  

Hi Dan, thanks for your observation. I just graphics or pictures to motivate those who have more precise information to clarify some information that goes through the web. Logically sound waves can not and should be represented by straight lines, but we must also address how fast these waves old, there is an implicit relationship between air flow and velocity of the incident on the movement of the rod, which transforms fluejo in the sound wave. The higher the wave velocity (ie in the acute) occurs most righteous of the wave. Or am I wrong? regards Silverio


De: "Letydan@..." <Letydan@...>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 10:03
Asunto: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all

  

Hi Silverio, 3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight lines. Well... at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back and forth inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip area, that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip and baffle area. Good rails will do the rest. All the best, Dan project designer hsm-masterpiece.com --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004" <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote: > > > > > > First of all let me say that i am not an expert in the field of mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer > > I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play worse!!! - but then that is often how we learn. > > The m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical elements combine to make your instrument speak. > > Would someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very end of the m/p the tip edge. > > If when sanding the curve too much material is
 removed the tip becomes a knife edge. Is it then necessary to sand/file the edge to put an edge of 1mm or so onto the tip end. > > Best Wishes to All > Peter Hepplewhite > England UK > > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@...m, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@> wrote: > > > > Hello boys and girls > > Let's talk about important details of the Mouthpieces. > > I'm trying to understand certain relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities and materials. Some more successfully than others. > > In the following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I probably know more about it? > > I hope an interesting start, going from part to whole to understand based on our own experience the different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our interventions. Rule is up to us what the best
 options as a rule. > > Thanks to all > > Silverio > > From Patagonia Argentina > > >

What you run into if you're not making them yourself in-house are the  
following issues (among many):

initial tooling cost
minimum production run
accuracy of the contractors work

each of these topics has a wide variety of sub-topics......

Silver plated brass


Mikole E. Kaar 

(702) 812-1211

From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
To: "MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all

  
Hi Mikole, what material would be your new line of mouthpiece for what type or genre of music?

 

De: Mikole Kaar <mikolekaar@...>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: martes, 6 de septiembre de 2011 13:19
Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all

  
Hi Silverio,
I am lookong for a manufacturer to make my mew mouthpiece line.Do you have anyone there?
Peace
Mikole E. Kaar 

(702) 812-1211


--- On Tue, 9/6/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:


>From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all [1 Attachment]
>To: "MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
>Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 1:09 AM
>
>
>  
>Here go one idea or possibility, maybe yet was realized.
>
>De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>Enviado: domingo, 4 de septiembre de 2011 20:24
>Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>
>  
>Not too clear.  A diagram might help.
>
>--- On Sat, 9/3/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@....ar> wrote:
>
>
>>From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
>>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 4:06 PM
>>
>>
>>  
>>Very interesting development of your concepts Lance. I have a question I will try to develop a "trial and error" coming soon. What if from the tip of the deflector or baffle with some micrometer channel along said tip begins to close (closer to the rod) from 1 cm from the tip, with an initial length from that cm from the tip to the end of the curve. Got it? regards Silverio
>>De: Toby <kymarto123@...>
>>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>Enviado: sábado, 3 de septiembre de 2011 5:21
>>Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>
>>  
>> 
>>I'm interested in Lance's assertion that the "shape" of the pulse is important. What is this shape? I've never heard anything like this before. My understanding is the original "puff", as Benade calls it, becomes a wavefront which travels down the tube and back, as Lance says, to be reinforced by the next "puff" when it reaches the mpc tip. Since the reed is controlled by the air pressure in the tube, the timing can't help but be correct if the standing wave is created. The reed cycle is determined by the wave cycle (for the most part). 
>> 
>>What exactly, Lance, do you mean by "distortion"? What does it mean that the closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer-blowing the tone? It has always been my understanding that this is largely determined by the impedances of the tube, so how can the returning pulse, having traveled the length of the tube (whatever the impedance graph looks like) have a "shape" like the impulse coming from the reed tip? This explanation makes no sense to me. I had always thought we get stronger, freer-blowing tone when the impedances maxima of the tube are in close to harmonic ratios.
>> 
>>Benade states that baffle adjustments affect the tone by changing the way the reed moves when it is nearly closed--it has to do with Bernoulli forces which act on the reed as the space between reed and facing gets narrower. This kind of behavior has nothing to do with the returning pulse, rather it is aerodynamically determined by the pressure differential on the two sides of the reed and how it develops as the reed closes.
>> 
>>Research has shown that the oral cavity does act as an upstream resonator, but its main effects in controlling reed behavior are in special cases, such as pitch bending, bugling, and in the altissimo range. There appears to be very little effect in aligning resonances between the oral cavity and a significant frequency being played, at least according to research carried out at UNSW.
>> 
>>Toby
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>>From: Silverio Potenza 
>>>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
>>>Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:09 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all  
>>>Hello MartinMods, clear your explanation. Something is consistent with my drawings, apparently yes, if I understood there would be a backflow of air into, but not the sound? How important would then be the oral or buccal cavity of the player? as part of such molecular changes as I understand your writing. Thank you for participating Silverio
>>>De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
>>>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>>Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 18:36
>>>Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>>
>>>  
>>>While there is a jet of air entering the mouthpiece while the reed is open, that brief jet of moving air dissipates after about the first 1/2 inch, so, we can really forget about it after that.  What is important to realize is, the air moves relatively very little.  It is the resultant energy moving from air molecule to air molecule that makes the sound.  
>>>
>>>In the saxophone (conical air columns) this high pressure energy pulse travels the length of the tube and reflects at the open end (or open tone hole) with an inversion - it becomes a low pressure pulse.  Other than the inversion, there is very little change to the shape of the pulse.  It travels back up the air column to the mouthpiece chamber, where the low pressure allows the reed to close (completely or close to it).  Due to the nature of conical air columns and the volume of the mouthpiece, there is a little delay before the pulse reflects at the reed, and it does so with another inversion.   It becomes a high pressure pulse again, and the reed opens, commencing a new cycle of the wave, reinforced by the new air jet's energy entering the mouthpiece.  
>>>
>>>For the saxophone to work at all, the shape of the reflected pulse at the reed must closely resemble the shape of the energy pulse generated by the air jet entering the mouthpiece chamber.  It must arrive (from double tube transit) and reflect without significant distortion.  The closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer blowing the tone.  Add distortion, and the sound becomes weaker for the same amount of input energy.  We experience resistance.  Excessive distortion, and the reed will just stay closed.
>>>
>>>So what mouthpiece characteristics cause distortion?  Wrong mouthpiece volume.  Wrong mouthpiece frequency.    Baffle shapes that generate pulses that are not sympathetic with the air column's resonance structure i.e., the air column can not conduct the pulse without distortion.  Any sharp edge or significant bore irregularity (e.g., a sharp window/ramp edge) will cause turbulence, which will create a distortion in the pulse.  
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--- On Fri, 9/2/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
>>>>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>>>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>>>Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 5:29 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>Hi Dan, thanks for your observation. I just graphics or pictures to motivate those who have more precise information to clarify some information that goes through the web. Logically sound waves can not and should be represented by straight lines, but we must also address how fast these waves old, there is an implicit relationship between air flow and velocity of the incident on the movement of the rod, which transforms fluejo in the sound wave. The higher the wave velocity (ie in the acute) occurs most righteous of the wave. Or am I wrong? regards Silverio
>>>>De: "Letydan@..." <Letydan@...>
>>>>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>>>Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 10:03
>>>>Asunto: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>Hi Silverio, 3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight lines. Well... at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back and forth inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip area, that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip and baffle area. Good rails will do the rest. All the best, Dan project designer hsm-masterpiece.com --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004" <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote: > > > > > > First of all let me say that i am not an expert in the field of mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer > > I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play worse!!! - but then that is often how we learn. > > The m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical elements combine to make your instrument speak. > > Would someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very end of the m/p the tip edge. > > If when sanding the curve too much material
 is removed the tip becomes a knife edge. Is it then necessary to sand/file the edge to put an edge of 1mm or so onto the tip end. > > Best Wishes to All > Peter Hepplewhite > England UK > > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@> wrote: > > > > Hello boys and girls > > Let's talk about important details of the Mouthpieces. > > I'm trying to understand certain relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities and materials. Some more successfully than others. > > In the following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I probably know more about it? > > I hope an interesting start, going from part to whole to understand based on our own experience the different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our interventions. Rule is up to us what the
 best options as a rule. > > Thanks to all > > Silverio > > From Patagonia Argentina > > >   

Hi estimated Martin 
At all times, mankind has made ​​discoveries, by chance, trial and error and by divine inspiration .... and why not?, Arising from the crazy minds. Of genius and crazy, we all have a little. 
Thank you for your important participation in the forum gradually beyond our discoveries, inventions and twists and turns, it is important that we make friends. 
Silverio


________________________________
De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: martes, 6 de septiembre de 2011 22:46
Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all


  
Silverio,

The reed tip and first 3/8" of the baffle already form a type of venturi, after which, the air jet dissipates.  At the location of your secondary venturi, we probably need only concern ourselves with the transverse pressure wave rather than a volume of moving air, and as such, this obstruction to the wave in both directions will probably function as a pretty good muffler baffle :-)

Lance


--- On Tue, 9/6/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:


>From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all [1 Attachment]
>To: "MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
>Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 8:09 AM
>
>
>  
>Here go one idea or possibility, maybe yet was realized.
>
>
>
>De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>Enviado: domingo, 4 de septiembre de 2011 20:24
>Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>
>  
>Not too clear.  A diagram might help.
>
>--- On Sat, 9/3/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:
>
>
>>From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
>>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 4:06 PM
>>
>>
>>  
>>Very interesting development of your concepts Lance.
>>I have a question I will try to develop a "trial and error" coming soon. What if from the tip of the deflector or baffle with some micrometer channel along said tip begins to close (closer to the rod) from 1 cm from the tip, with an initial length from that cm from the tip to the end of the curve. Got it?
>>regards
>>Silverio
>>
>>
>>De: Toby <kymarto123@...>
>>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>Enviado: sábado, 3 de septiembre de 2011 5:21
>>Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>
>>  
>> 
>>I'm interested in Lance's assertion that the "shape" of the pulse is important. What is this shape? I've never heard anything like this before. My understanding is the original "puff", as Benade calls it, becomes a wavefront which travels down the tube and back, as Lance says, to be reinforced by the next "puff" when it reaches the mpc tip. Since the reed is controlled by the air pressure in the tube, the timing can't help but be correct if the standing wave is created. The reed cycle is determined by the wave cycle (for the most part). 
>> 
>>What exactly, Lance, do you mean by "distortion"? What does it mean that the closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer-blowing the tone? It has always been my understanding that this is largely determined by the impedances of the tube, so how can the returning pulse, having traveled the length of the tube (whatever the impedance graph looks like) have a "shape" like the impulse coming from the reed tip? This explanation makes no sense to me. I had always thought we get stronger, freer-blowing tone when the impedances maxima of the tube are in close to harmonic ratios.
>> 
>>Benade states that baffle adjustments affect the tone by changing the way the reed moves when it is nearly closed--it has to do with Bernoulli forces which act on the reed as the space between reed and facing gets narrower. This kind of behavior has nothing to do with the returning pulse, rather it is aerodynamically determined by the pressure differential on the two sides of the reed and how it develops as the reed closes.
>> 
>>Research has shown that the oral cavity does act as an upstream resonator, but its main effects in controlling reed behavior are in special cases, such as pitch bending, bugling, and in the altissimo range. There appears to be very little effect in aligning resonances between the oral cavity and a significant frequency being played, at least according to research carried out at UNSW.
>> 
>>Toby
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>>From: Silverio Potenza 
>>>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
>>>Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:09 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all  
>>>Hello MartinMods, clear your explanation. Something is consistent with my drawings, apparently yes, if I understood there would be a backflow of air into, but not the sound? How important would then be the oral or buccal cavity of the player? as part of such molecular changes as I understand your writing.
>>>Thank you for participating
>>>Silverio
>>>
>>>
>>>De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
>>>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>>Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 18:36
>>>Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>>
>>>  
>>>While there is a jet of air entering the mouthpiece while the reed is open, that brief jet of moving air dissipates after about the first 1/2 inch, so, we can really forget about it after that.  What is important to realize is, the air moves relatively very little.  It is the resultant energy moving from air molecule to air molecule that makes the sound.  
>>>
>>>In the saxophone (conical air columns) this high pressure energy pulse travels the length of the tube and reflects at the open end (or open tone hole) with an inversion - it becomes a low pressure pulse.  Other than the inversion, there is very little change to the shape of the pulse.  It travels back up the air column to the mouthpiece chamber, where the low pressure allows the reed to close (completely or close to it).  Due to the nature of conical air columns and the volume of the mouthpiece, there is a little delay before the pulse reflects at the reed, and it does so with another inversion.   It becomes a high pressure pulse again, and the reed opens, commencing a new cycle of the wave, reinforced by the new air jet's energy entering the mouthpiece.  
>>>
>>>For the saxophone to work at all, the shape of the reflected pulse at the reed must closely resemble the shape of the energy pulse generated by the air jet entering the mouthpiece chamber.  It must arrive (from double tube transit) and reflect without significant distortion.  The closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer blowing the tone.  Add distortion, and the sound becomes weaker for the same amount of input energy.  We experience resistance.  Excessive distortion, and the reed will just stay closed.
>>>
>>>So what mouthpiece characteristics cause distortion?  Wrong mouthpiece volume.  Wrong mouthpiece frequency.    Baffle shapes that generate pulses that are not sympathetic with the air column's resonance structure i.e., the air column can not conduct the pulse without distortion.  Any sharp edge or significant bore irregularity (e.g., a sharp window/ramp edge) will cause turbulence, which will create a distortion in the pulse.  
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--- On Fri, 9/2/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
>>>>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>>>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>>>Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 5:29 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>Hi Dan, thanks for your observation. I just graphics or pictures to motivate those who have more precise information to clarify some information that goes through the web. Logically sound waves can not and should be represented by straight lines, but we must also address how fast these waves old, there is an implicit relationship between air flow and velocity of the incident on the movement of the rod, which transforms fluejo in the sound wave. The higher the wave velocity (ie in the acute) occurs most righteous of the wave. Or am I wrong?
>>>>regards
>>>>Silverio
>>>>
>>>>De: "Letydan@..." <Letydan@...>
>>>>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>>>Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 10:03
>>>>Asunto: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>Hi Silverio,
>>>>3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight lines. Well... at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back and forth inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip area, that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip and baffle area. Good rails will do the rest.
>>>>All the best,
>>>>
>>>>Dan
>>>>
>>>>project designer
>>>>hsm-masterpiece.com
>>>>
>>>>--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004" <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> First of all let me say that i am not an expert in the field of mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play worse!!! - but then that is often how we learn.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical elements combine to make your instrument speak.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Would someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very end of the m/p the tip edge.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If when sanding the curve too much material is removed the tip becomes a knife edge. Is it then necessary to sand/file the edge to put an edge of 1mm or so onto the tip end.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best Wishes to All
>>>>> Peter Hepplewhite
>>>>> England UK
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Hello boys and girls
>>>>> > Let's talk about important details of the Mouthpieces.
>>>>> > I'm trying to understand certain relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities and materials. Some more successfully than others.
>>>>> > In the following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I probably know more about it?
>>>>> > I hope an interesting start, going from part to whole to understand based on our own experience the different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a rule.
>>>>> > Thanks to all
>>>>> > Silverio
>>>>> > From Patagonia Argentina
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   

Wow!!! Nothing less that Guardalas and Dukoff mouthpieces!!! 
At the moment I am trying to apply treatments lasting silver and gold on reformed parts of the instruments restored, is the pre-Durable gold-plated mouthpiece too. You may be able to carry out the manufacture of nozzles in the future, when I also use blanks.


________________________________
De: Mikole Kaar <mikolekaar@...>
Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: martes, 6 de septiembre de 2011 23:59
Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all


  
Silver plated pieces on the line of Guardala and Dukoff.


Mikole E. Kaar 

(702) 812-1211


--- On Tue, 9/6/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:


>From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>To: "MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
>Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 12:22 PM
>
>
>  
>Hi Mikole, what material would be your new line of mouthpiece for what type or genre of music?
>
> 
>
>
>De: Mikole Kaar <mikolekaar@...>
>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>Enviado: martes, 6 de septiembre de 2011 13:19
>Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>
>  
>Hi Silverio,
>I am lookong for a manufacturer to make my mew mouthpiece line.Do you have anyone there?
>Peace
>Mikole E. Kaar 
>
>(702) 812-1211
>
>
>--- On Tue, 9/6/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:
>
>
>>From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
>>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all [1 Attachment]
>>To: "MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com" <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
>>Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 1:09 AM
>>
>>
>>  
>>Here go one idea or possibility, maybe yet was realized.
>>
>>De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
>>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>Enviado: domingo, 4 de septiembre de 2011 20:24
>>Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>
>>  
>>Not too clear.  A diagram might help.
>>
>>--- On Sat, 9/3/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
>>>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>>Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 4:06 PM
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>Very interesting development of your concepts Lance. I have a question I will try to develop a "trial and error" coming soon. What if from the tip of the deflector or baffle with some micrometer channel along said tip begins to close (closer to the rod) from 1 cm from the tip, with an initial length from that cm from the tip to the end of the curve. Got it? regards Silverio
>>>De: Toby <kymarto123@...>
>>>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>>Enviado: sábado, 3 de septiembre de 2011 5:21
>>>Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>>
>>>  
>>> 
>>>I'm interested in Lance's assertion that the "shape" of the pulse is important. What is this shape? I've never heard anything like this before. My understanding is the original "puff", as Benade calls it, becomes a wavefront which travels down the tube and back, as Lance says, to be reinforced by the next "puff" when it reaches the mpc tip. Since the reed is controlled by the air pressure in the tube, the timing can't help but be correct if the standing wave is created. The reed cycle is determined by the wave cycle (for the most part). 
>>> 
>>>What exactly, Lance, do you mean by "distortion"? What does it mean that the closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer-blowing the tone? It has always been my understanding that this is largely determined by the impedances of the tube, so how can the returning pulse, having traveled the length of the tube (whatever the impedance graph looks like) have a "shape" like the impulse coming from the reed tip? This explanation makes no sense to me. I had always thought we get stronger, freer-blowing tone when the impedances maxima of the tube are in close to harmonic ratios.
>>> 
>>>Benade states that baffle adjustments affect the tone by changing the way the reed moves when it is nearly closed--it has to do with Bernoulli forces which act on the reed as the space between reed and facing gets narrower. This kind of behavior has nothing to do with the returning pulse, rather it is aerodynamically determined by the pressure differential on the two sides of the reed and how it develops as the reed closes.
>>> 
>>>Research has shown that the oral cavity does act as an upstream resonator, but its main effects in controlling reed behavior are in special cases, such as pitch bending, bugling, and in the altissimo range. There appears to be very little effect in aligning resonances between the oral cavity and a significant frequency being played, at least according to research carried out at UNSW.
>>> 
>>>Toby
>>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>From: Silverio Potenza 
>>>>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
>>>>Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 1:09 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all  
>>>>Hello MartinMods, clear your explanation. Something is consistent with my drawings, apparently yes, if I understood there would be a backflow of air into, but not the sound? How important would then be the oral or buccal cavity of the player? as part of such molecular changes as I understand your writing. Thank you for participating Silverio
>>>>De: MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
>>>>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>>>Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 18:36
>>>>Asunto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>While there is a jet of air entering the mouthpiece while the reed is open, that brief jet of moving air dissipates after about the first 1/2 inch, so, we can really forget about it after that.  What is important to realize is, the air moves relatively very little.  It is the resultant energy moving from air molecule to air molecule that makes the sound.  
>>>>
>>>>In the saxophone (conical air columns) this high pressure energy pulse travels the length of the tube and reflects at the open end (or open tone hole) with an inversion - it becomes a low pressure pulse.  Other than the inversion, there is very little change to the shape of the pulse.  It travels back up the air column to the mouthpiece chamber, where the low pressure allows the reed to close (completely or close to it).  Due to the nature of conical air columns and the volume of the mouthpiece, there is a little delay before the pulse reflects at the reed, and it does so with another inversion.   It becomes a high pressure pulse again, and the reed opens, commencing a new cycle of the wave, reinforced by the new air jet's energy entering the mouthpiece.  
>>>>
>>>>For the saxophone to work at all, the shape of the reflected pulse at the reed must closely resemble the shape of the energy pulse generated by the air jet entering the mouthpiece chamber.  It must arrive (from double tube transit) and reflect without significant distortion.  The closer the combining pulses are to identical, the stronger, freer blowing the tone.  Add distortion, and the sound becomes weaker for the same amount of input energy.  We experience resistance.  Excessive distortion, and the reed will just stay closed.
>>>>
>>>>So what mouthpiece characteristics cause distortion?  Wrong mouthpiece volume.  Wrong mouthpiece frequency.    Baffle shapes that generate pulses that are not sympathetic with the air column's resonance structure i.e., the air column can not conduct the pulse without distortion.  Any sharp edge or significant bore irregularity (e.g., a sharp window/ramp edge) will cause turbulence, which will create a distortion in the pulse.  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--- On Fri, 9/2/11, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@...>
>>>>>Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>>>>To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 5:29 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>>Hi Dan, thanks for your observation. I just graphics or pictures to motivate those who have more precise information to clarify some information that goes through the web. Logically sound waves can not and should be represented by straight lines, but we must also address how fast these waves old, there is an implicit relationship between air flow and velocity of the incident on the movement of the rod, which transforms fluejo in the sound wave. The higher the wave velocity (ie in the acute) occurs most righteous of the wave. Or am I wrong? regards Silverio
>>>>>De: "Letydan@..." <Letydan@...>
>>>>>Para: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>Enviado: viernes, 2 de septiembre de 2011 10:03
>>>>>Asunto: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Mouthpieces from parts to all
>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>>Hi Silverio, 3D sound waves cannot be represented using straight lines. Well... at least they should not. There is nothing jumping back and forth inside a mouthpiece. You have an airflow just near the tip area, that's all. Pay as much attention you can to optimize the tip and baffle area. Good rails will do the rest. All the best, Dan project designer hsm-masterpiece.com --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004" <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote: > > > > > > First of all let me say that i am not an expert in the field of mouthpieces and my views are that of an observer > > I am always fearful of destroying, or making a m/p play worse!!! - but then that is often how we learn. > > The m/p is of course a very special shape, and all of the physical elements combine to make your instrument speak. > > Would someone please exlain to me the design considerations of the very end of
 the m/p the tip edge. > > If when sanding the curve too much material is removed the tip becomes a knife edge. Is it then necessary to sand/file the edge to put an edge of 1mm or so onto the tip end. > > Best Wishes to All > Peter Hepplewhite > England UK > > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Silverio Potenza <silpopaar@> wrote: > > > > Hello boys and girls > > Let's talk about important details of the Mouthpieces. > > I'm trying to understand certain relationships in the various designs and solutions that I have seen in the daily practice of intervening on Mouthpieces different qualities and materials. Some more successfully than others. > > In the following graphs detail the places where they settle degrees of resistance and fluidity of the sound wave. What is your opinion that I probably know more about it? > > I hope an interesting start, going from part to
 whole to understand based on our own experience the different responses by the mouthpiece on the basis of our interventions. Rule is up to us what the best options as a rule. > > Thanks to all > > Silverio > > From Patagonia Argentina > > >