Mouthpiece Work / Tip rail digital indicator
FROM: franclarinete (Francisco Jose)
SUBJECT: Tip rail digital indicator
Hi Friends, I´ve got the Jimmy Mitchell digital indicator. Once I´ve calibrated the machine on a flat surface I find difficult to measure the mouthpiece tip rail. If I do it twice it gives me two slightly diferent values. Is there any technique at grabing or sustaining the mouthpiece against the base and the measuring spike which could give me a more reliable measure? thank you for replying me so quick to my last messages. Fran
FROM: saxgourmet (STEVE GOODSON)
SUBJECT: Re: Tip rail digital indicator
maybe the table is not perfectly flat? On Mar 15, 2011, at 1:04 PM, Francisco Jose wrote: > > > Hi Friends, > > I´ve got the Jimmy Mitchell digital indicator. Once I´ve calibrated > the machine on a flat surface I find difficult to measure the > mouthpiece tip rail. If I do it twice it gives me two slightly > diferent values. Is there any technique at grabing or sustaining the > mouthpiece against the base and the measuring spike which could give > me a more reliable measure? > > thank you for replying me so quick to my last messages. > > Fran > >
FROM: pfdeley (Peter Deley)
SUBJECT: Re: Tip rail digital indicator
I have similar problems with my gauge and I think I know why, though I have not fixed it yet. I have it mounted on a home-made right angle frame and I think the side where I lay the mouthpiece down is either a little too short or perhaps not firm enough. I concluded this because it seems to give consistent results with the smaller mouthpieces, such as clarinet and soprano but can give quite variable measurements with anything longer. I don't know if your gauge comes with a mounting or if you made your own. Peter
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Tip rail digital indicator
+/- .001 with the same gage is normal. A pointed probe is more sensitive to
where you place it on the tip rail. It might change by .002-.003" if placement
is not exact. The Fowler gage has a probe that is like a flat screw driver
end. If you center it on the tip, this probe "finds" the inside of the tip rail
better than a pointed probe. But the pointed probe allows you to take other
readings like baffle profile shapes.
________________________________
From: Francisco Jose <franclarinete@...>
To: mouthpiecework@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, March 15, 2011 2:04:31 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Tip rail digital indicator
Hi Friends,
I´ve got the Jimmy Mitchell digital indicator. Once I´ve calibrated the machine
on a flat surface I find difficult to measure the mouthpiece tip rail. If I do
it twice it gives me two slightly diferent values. Is there any technique at
grabing or sustaining the mouthpiece against the base and the measuring spike
which could give me a more reliable measure?
thank you for replying me so quick to my last messages.
Fran
FROM: pfdeley (Peter Deley)
SUBJECT: Re: Tip rail digital indicator
I've also thought that changing the probe on my gauge would give more consistent measurements. Mine has a hollow cylinder that does not always touch the tip the same way each time. I always double check using my once trusty old Eric Brand taper gauge, which I know gives over- sized readings in the clarinet range because it is worn down. I also rely on stacked feeler gauges but then I am never sure if there is any crud stuck between them which would give a false reading too.
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Tip rail digital indicator
You can probably fill the hollow cylinder with epoxy.
I mostly use a machinists depth gage with a solid cylinder. I use it so that
only one edge is on the inside of the tip rail.
________________________________
From: Peter Deley <pfdeley@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, March 15, 2011 5:04:47 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Tip rail digital indicator
I've also thought that changing the probe on my gauge would give more
consistent measurements. Mine has a hollow cylinder that does not always touch
the tip the same way each time.
I always double check using my once trusty old Eric Brand taper gauge, which I
know gives over- sized readings in the clarinet range because it is worn down. I
also rely on stacked feeler gauges but then I am never sure if there is any crud
stuck between them which would give a false reading too.
FROM: jimmitch47 (jamesm)
SUBJECT: Re: Tip rail digital indicator
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Francisco Jose <franclarinete@...> wrote: > > > > > Hi Friends, > I´ve got the Jimmy Mitchell digital indicator. Once I´ve calibrated the machine on a flat surface I find difficult to measure the mouthpiece tip rail. If I do it twice it gives me two slightly diferent values. Is there any technique at grabing or sustaining the mouthpiece against the base and the measuring spike which could give me a more reliable measure? > thank you for replying me so quick to my last messages. > Fran > >From: jamesm <jimmitch47@...> Fran the key is to get the mouthpiece table flat.+- a few .001 is normal.Try to place the probe at the same spot on the tip rail.You will have the same problem with your feeler gage measurements . Try to take all the measurement at the same time.So you won't have to move the mouthpiece on the glass gage as much.
FROM: pfdeley (Peter Deley)
SUBJECT: Re: Tip rail digital indicator
Yes that sounds like a good idea, along with making a firmer frame for the gauge. Peter
--- On Tue, 3/15/11, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
From: Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Tip rail digital indicator
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, March 15, 2011, 4:11 PM
You can probably fill the hollow cylinder with epoxy.
I mostly use a machinists depth gage with a solid cylinder. I use it so that only one edge is on the inside of the tip rail.
From: Peter Deley <pfdeley@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, March 15, 2011 5:04:47 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Tip rail digital indicator
I've also thought that changing the probe on my gauge would give more consistent measurements. Mine has a hollow cylinder that does not always touch the tip the same way each time.
I always double check using my once trusty old Eric Brand taper gauge, which I know gives over- sized readings in the clarinet range because it is worn down. I also rely on stacked feeler gauges but then I am never sure if there is any crud stuck between them which would give a false reading too.
FROM: franclarinete (Francisco Jose)
SUBJECT: Re: Tip rail digital indicator
Thank you Jim, This sounds wise.
Greetings,
Fran
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
From: jimmitch47@...
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 00:01:46 +0000
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Tip rail digital indicator
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Francisco Jose <franclarinete@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hi Friends,
> I´ve got the Jimmy Mitchell digital indicator. Once I´ve calibrated the machine on a flat surface I find difficult to measure the mouthpiece tip rail. If I do it twice it gives me two slightly diferent values. Is there any technique at grabing or sustaining the mouthpiece against the base and the measuring spike which could give me a more reliable measure?
> thank you for replying me so quick to my last messages.
> Fran
>
>From: jamesm <jimmitch47@...> Fran the key is to get the mouthpiece table flat.+- a few .001 is normal.Try to place the probe at the same spot on the tip rail.You will have the same problem with your feeler gage measurements . Try to take all the measurement at the same time.So you won't have to move the mouthpiece on the glass gage as much.
FROM: tenorman1952 (tenorman1952)
SUBJECT: Re: Tip rail digital indicator
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Francisco Jose <franclarinete@...> wrote: > > Hi Friends, > I´ve got the Jimmy Mitchell digital indicator. Once I´ve calibrated the machine on a flat surface I find difficult to measure the mouthpiece tip rail. If I do it twice it gives me two slightly diferent values. Is there any technique at grabing or sustaining the mouthpiece against the base and the measuring spike which could give me a more reliable measure? > thank you for replying me so quick to my last messages. > Fran > Fran, the tip rail is at an angle to the table. You must place the probe of the dial indicator at the same spot on the tip rail to have a consistent reading. I try to measure about halfway between the middle of the tip rail and the outer edge. I use a tip on the probe from Theo Wanne that has a very small ball shape so that it contacts the tip rail at a point, rather than the edge of a cylindrically shaped end. Even then my readings will vary a thousandths or so. And is it that important? I find it more important to have a smooth radial curve with even side rails. I do try to have the tip measure my target measurement, but know that it can vary a bit as I repeatedly measure. Paul.
FROM: pfdeley (Peter Deley)
SUBJECT: Re: Tip rail digital indicator
How do other refacers deal with the range of readings across the tip rail?
Most pieces, even ones that play well can have big differences between the central opening and the two corners, with of course the central one being most open.
I only try to adjust the opening when there is a very large difference or when one corner is quite different from the other. Should I be trying to make the whole tip uniform? Peter
FROM: dantorosian (Dan Torosian)
SUBJECT: Re: Tip rail digital indicator
This html message parsed with html2text ---------------------------The corners are not at the same place (on the glass gauge) as the tip. They're a little bit "down" the facing, so their measurement should not be the same as the very tip. That is, if you look at the corners through the glass gauge, they're not at zero, so they shouldn't measure as if they were. Dan T On 3/16/2011 10:46 AM, Peter Deley wrote: > | | How do other refacers deal with the range of readings across the tip rail? > Most pieces, even ones that play well can have big differences between the > central opening and the two corners, with of course the central one being > most open. > I only try to adjust the opening when there is a very large difference or > when one corner is quite different from the other. Should I be trying to > make the whole tip uniform? Peter > --- > > >
FROM: pfdeley (Peter Deley)
SUBJECT: Re: Tip rail digital indicator
Good point. So that means that if one corner is different from the other the shape of the tip curve is at fault and not the tip opening. Sometimes the whole facing seems to have been applied slightly off, from the table onwards, which makes the tip rail always look a little unsymmetrical from corner to corner. I have a bunch of new old stock Riffaults Ideals for clarinet. Most are good or easily fixable, but about a third of them are totally off center, as if the machine they used was not well calibrated. I have done one of these" off" ones as an experiment and it took a lot of time and effort to get it righted. Fortunately, all the Ideal sax pieces I have acquired from the same lot are quite accurate Peter.
--- On Wed, 3/16/11, Dan Torosian <dtorosian@...> wrote:
From: Dan Torosian <dtorosian@...>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Tip rail digital indicator
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, March 16, 2011, 9:04 AM
The corners are not at the same place (on the glass gauge) as the
tip. They're a little bit "down" the facing, so their measurement
should not be the same as the very tip. That is, if you look at the
corners through the glass gauge, they're not at zero, so they
shouldn't measure as if they were.
Dan T
On 3/16/2011 10:46 AM, Peter Deley wrote:
How do other refacers
deal with the range of
readings across the tip rail?
Most pieces, even ones that
play well can have big
differences between the
central opening and the two
corners, with of course the
central one being most open.
I only try to adjust the
opening when there is a very
large difference or when one
corner is quite different from
the other. Should I be trying
to make the whole tip uniform?
Peter
FROM: pfdeley (Peter Deley)
SUBJECT: Re: Tip rail digital indicator
That's a good tip about the round point on the digital indicator a la Theo Wanne. Instead of filling the hollow tip on my indicator with epoxy as Mojo suggested I'll rummage through my bicycle ball bearing collection and epoxy in a suitably sized one. I'm getting a wealth of information from you guys today! It's good to have access to the ideas of great and experienced minds. The group effort is greater than the sum of its parts. Peter
--- On Wed, 3/16/11, tenorman1952 <tenorman1952@...> wrote:
From: tenorman1952 <tenorman1952@...>
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Tip rail digital indicator
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, March 16, 2011, 6:36 AM
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Francisco Jose <franclarinete@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Friends,
> I´ve got the Jimmy Mitchell digital indicator. Once I´ve calibrated the machine on a flat surface I find difficult to measure the mouthpiece tip rail. If I do it twice it gives me two slightly diferent values. Is there any technique at grabing or sustaining the mouthpiece against the base and the measuring spike which could give me a more reliable measure?
> thank you for replying me so quick to my last messages.
> Fran
>
Fran, the tip rail is at an angle to the table. You must place the probe of the dial indicator at the same spot on the tip rail to have a consistent reading. I try to measure about halfway between the middle of the tip rail and the outer edge. I use a tip on the probe from Theo Wanne that has a very small ball shape so that it contacts the tip rail at a point, rather than the edge of a cylindrically shaped end.
Even then my readings will vary a thousandths or so. And is it that important? I find it more important to have a smooth radial curve with even side rails. I do try to have the tip measure my target measurement, but know that it can vary a bit as I repeatedly measure.
Paul.
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Tip rail digital indicator
I think Theo's ball tip is very small, like less than 1/16" in dia. Virtually
a dull point.
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
2925 Crane St., Vineland, NJ 08361
Paypal to sabradbury79@...
Check out: http://www.MojoMouthpieceWork.com
________________________________
From: Peter Deley <pfdeley@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 12:44:24 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Tip rail digital indicator
That's a good tip about the round point on the digital indicator a la Theo
Wanne.
Instead of filling the hollow tip on my indicator with epoxy as Mojo
suggested I'll rummage through my bicycle ball bearing collection and epoxy in
a suitably sized one.
I'm getting a wealth of information from you guys today! It's good to have
access to the ideas of great and experienced minds. The group effort is greater
than the sum of its parts. Peter
--- On Wed, 3/16/11, tenorman1952 <tenorman1952@yahoo.com> wrote:
>From: tenorman1952 <tenorman1952@...>
>Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Tip rail digital indicator
>To: MouthpieceWork@...m
>Date: Wednesday, March 16, 2011, 6:36 AM
>
>
>
>--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Francisco Jose <franclarinete@...>
wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Friends,
>> I´ve got the Jimmy Mitchell digital indicator. Once I´ve calibrated the machine
>>on a flat surface I find difficult to measure the mouthpiece tip rail. If I do
>>it twice it gives me two slightly diferent values. Is there any technique at
>>grabing or sustaining the mouthpiece against the base and the measuring spike
>>which could give me a more reliable measure?
>> thank you for replying me so quick to my last messages.
>> Fran
>>
>
>Fran, the tip rail is at an angle to the table. You must place the probe of the
>dial indicator at the same spot on the tip rail to have a consistent reading. I
>try to measure about halfway between the middle of the tip rail and the outer
>edge. I use a tip on the probe from Theo Wanne that has a very small ball shape
>so that it contacts the tip rail at a point, rather than the edge of a
>cylindrically shaped end.
>
>Even then my readings will vary a thousandths or so. And is it that important? I
>find it more important to have a smooth radial curve with even side rails. I do
>try to have the tip measure my target measurement, but know that it can vary a
>bit as I repeatedly measure.
>
>Paul.
>
>
FROM: tenorman1952 (tenorman1952)
SUBJECT: Re: Tip rail digital indicator
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Peter Deley <pfdeley@...> wrote: > > That's a good tip about the round point on the digital indicator a la Theo Wanne.  Instead of filling the  hollow tip on my  indicator with epoxy as Mojo suggested  I'll rummage through my bicycle ball bearing collection and epoxy  in a suitably sized one.  I'm getting a wealth of information from you guys today!  It's good to have access to the ideas of great and experienced minds.  The group effort is greater than the sum of its parts.  Peter > > --- On Wed, 3/16/11, tenorman1952 <tenorman1952@...> wrote: > Peter, the ball tip from Theo Wanne is about the diameter of the ball in a ball point pen, perhaps a little larger, but in that size range. Paul
FROM: pfdeley (Peter Deley)
SUBJECT: Re: Tip rail digital indicator
Thanks for the tip on the Wanne indicator. I'll check through my junk to see what is available. Perhaps a small ball bearing would do anyway since it would still contact the tip at only one tiny spot, which is what I am trying to achieve. Peter
FROM: moeaaron (Barry Levine)
SUBJECT: Re: Tip rail digital indicator
My dial indicator terminates in a tube with internal threads. It came with a fitting with a small ball bearing about 2mm in diameter. I found a small machine screw that matched the thread, ground it to a conical point, and used a small nut to adjust its position and fix it in place. Of course, if your indicator isn't threaded inside the working end, this isn't much help to you. Barry > From: Peter Deley <pfdeley@...> > Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:38:38 -0700 (PDT) > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Tip rail digital indicator > > > > Thanks for the tip on the Wanne indicator. I'll check through my junk to > see what is available. Perhaps a small ball bearing would do anyway since it > would still contact the tip at only one tiny spot, which is what I am trying > to achieve. Peter