Whatever happened to old fashioned Jam Sessions? We're trying to bring them back in Goldsboro. All musicians and music lovers invited...

Just my opinion, but if whiskey is being sold at a profit, the  
musicians should be paid. Club owners have been promoting this type  
even for years in order to get free entertainment. If ANYBODY is  
getting paid, or ANY money is being made, the musicians should be  
paid. This is simply exploitation, nothing more. It's right up there  
with "showcases".

Seriously, if you support this sort of thing, don't bitch about low  
wages or lack of work for professional musicians. I don't see plumbers  
or electricians working for free so somebody else can profit from  
their labor.

If you want to get together and play, that's fine. Just don't do it at  
a venue that should be PAYING for live music!


Steve Goodson
Saxophone Designer to the Stars
our products are all rated





sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc





Steve is a member of




PLEASE VISIT MY WEBSITES
http://www.nationofmusic.com/ (retail sales and discussion forum)
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/SaxophoneRepair/  (discussion  
group)
http://www.saxgourmet.com/  (saxophone history and information)
http://saxophonethoughts.blogspot.com/  (my personal saxophone blog)

READ MY ARTICLES ON SAXOPHONE DESIGN IN EACH ISSUE OF THE SAXOPHONE  
JOURNAL

BASIC SHOP RATE................$100/HR
IF YOU WATCH.....................$125/HR
IF YOU ASK QUESTIONS......$150/HR
IF I HAVE TO LISTEN TO A CONCERT
LONGER THAN FIVE MINUTES WHEN
YOU PICK UP YOUR HORN....$250/HR

The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic  
hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs.  
There's also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any  
attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may  
contain confidential and privileged information or otherwise protected  
by law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is  
prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the  
sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.



On Oct 6, 2010, at 7:26 AM, Jeff Grimes wrote:

> [Attachment(s) from Jeff Grimes included below]
>
> Whatever happened to old fashioned Jam Sessions? We're trying to  
> bring them back in Goldsboro. All musicians and music lovers  
> invited...
>
> 

Steve, 
   I am a saxophonist and have great respect for you and have always viewed you as a valuable resource in the Saxophone World.... Thanks for your reply, and for sending it to everyone. I too am sending my reply to everyone.... This is an event sponsored by our local Arts Council and is an attempt to gather musicians together in a small city where there are very few places for musicians to play. Many of our musicians only get to interact with other musicians on Sunday mornings... in church. This is not New Orleans.... We are trying to promote live music and musicianship. We asked the civic-minded supporters of the arts (who happen to own The Flying Shamrock) if we could use their space. 
We won't be mad if they make a few dollars to cover their expenses.... What the musicians gain from "jamming" with musicians of varying backgrounds and levels of ability is priceless.

We'll miss you,
Jeffrey Miles Grimes




Just my opinion, but if whiskey is being sold at a profit, the  
> musicians should be paid. Club owners have been promoting this type  
> even for years in order to get free entertainment. If ANYBODY is  
> getting paid, or ANY money is being made, the musicians should be  
> paid. This is simply exploitation, nothing more. It's right up there  
> with "showcases".
> 
> Seriously, if you support this sort of thing, don't bitch about low  
> wages or lack of work for professional musicians. I don't see plumbers  
> or electricians working for free so somebody else can profit from  
> their labor.
> 
> If you want to get together and play, that's fine. Just don't do it at  
> a venue that should be PAYING for live music!
> 
> 
> Steve Goodson
> Saxophone Designer to the Stars
> our products are all rated
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steve is a member of
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PLEASE VISIT MY WEBSITES
> http://www.nationofmusic.com/ (retail sales and discussion forum)
> http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/SaxophoneRepair/  (discussion  
> group)
> http://www.saxgourmet.com/  (saxophone history and information)
> http://saxophonethoughts.blogspot.com/  (my personal saxophone blog)
> 
> READ MY ARTICLES ON SAXOPHONE DESIGN IN EACH ISSUE OF THE SAXOPHONE  
> JOURNAL
> 
> BASIC SHOP RATE................$100/HR
> IF YOU WATCH.....................$125/HR
> IF YOU ASK QUESTIONS......$150/HR
> IF I HAVE TO LISTEN TO A CONCERT
> LONGER THAN FIVE MINUTES WHEN
> YOU PICK UP YOUR HORN....$250/HR
> 
> The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic  
> hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs.  
> There's also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson
> 
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any  
> attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may  
> contain confidential and privileged information or otherwise protected  
> by law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is  
> prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the  
> sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 6, 2010, at 7:26 AM, Jeff Grimes wrote:
> 
> > [Attachment(s) from Jeff Grimes included below]
> >
> > Whatever happened to old fashioned Jam Sessions? We're trying to  
> > bring them back in Goldsboro. All musicians and music lovers  
> > invited...
> >
> > 
> 

  My thought exactly Steve.

On 10/6/2010 10:20 AM, STEVE GOODSON wrote:
> Just my opinion, but if whiskey is being sold at a profit, the 
> musicians should be paid. Club owners have been promoting this type 
> even for years in order to get free entertainment. If ANYBODY is 
> getting paid, or ANY money is being made, the musicians should be 
> paid. This is simply exploitation, nothing more. It's right up there 
> with "showcases".
>
> Seriously, if you support this sort of thing, don't bitch about low 
> wages or lack of work for professional musicians. I don't see plumbers 
> or electricians working for free so somebody else can profit from 
> their labor.
>
> If you want to get together and play, that's fine. Just don't do it at 
> a venue that should be PAYING for live music!
>
>
> Steve Goodson
> Saxophone Designer to the Stars
> our products are all rated
>
>
>
>
> sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
>
>
>
>
> Steve is a member of
>
>
>
> PLEASE VISIT MY WEBSITES
> http://www.nationofmusic.com/ (retail sales and discussion forum)
> http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/SaxophoneRepair/  (discussion group)
> http://www.saxgourmet.com/  (saxophone history and information)
> http://saxophonethoughts.blogspot.com/  (my personal saxophone blog)
> READ MY ARTICLES ON SAXOPHONE DESIGN IN EACH ISSUE OF THE SAXOPHONE 
> JOURNAL
>
> BASIC SHOP RATE................$100/HR
> IF YOU WATCH.....................$125/HR
> IF YOU ASK QUESTIONS......$150/HR
> IF I HAVE TO LISTEN TO A CONCERT
> LONGER THAN FIVE MINUTES WHEN
> YOU PICK UP YOUR HORN....$250/HR
> The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic 
> hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs. 
> There's also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any 
> attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may 
> contain confidential and privileged information or otherwise protected 
> by law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is 
> prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the 
> sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.
>
>
>
> On Oct 6, 2010, at 7:26 AM, Jeff Grimes wrote:
>
>> [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from Jeff Grimes included below]
>>
>> Whatever happened to old fashioned Jam Sessions? We're trying to 
>> bring them back in Goldsboro. All musicians and music lovers invited...
>>
>

I think these guys are well intentioned, but I'm willing to bet you  
lunch that they all have nice cushy day jobs and are not in touch with  
having to make a living strictly by playing. I don't know of any other  
business where so many people give their services away for free and  
allow others to profit from them. This sort of thing does a tremendous  
disservice to the musical community. If professional musicians cannot  
make a living, who will teach the next generation? The argument that  
"this is not New Orleans" really hold water. If they think they can  
draw a crowd with what they have to offer, then they are providing a  
service that has value and should be paid accordingly. If the local  
arts council wishes to sponsor such an event, that's fine, but the  
arts council should seek and provide a venue where musicians are not  
exploited.

Making a living as a player is hard enough without this sort of thing,  
well intentioned or not. They need to consider the world of the  
professional musician, not the weekend warrior. It's a very different  
reality.


On Oct 6, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Robert W. Smith wrote:

> My thought exactly Steve.
>
> On 10/6/2010 10:20 AM, STEVE GOODSON wrote:
>>
>> Just my opinion, but if whiskey is being sold at a profit, the  
>> musicians should be paid. Club owners have been promoting this type  
>> even for years in order to get free entertainment. If ANYBODY is  
>> getting paid, or ANY money is being made, the musicians should be  
>> paid. This is simply exploitation, nothing more. It's right up  
>> there with "showcases".
>>
>> Seriously, if you support this sort of thing, don't bitch about low  
>> wages or lack of work for professional musicians. I don't see  
>> plumbers or electricians working for free so somebody else can  
>> profit from their labor.
>>
>> If you want to get together and play, that's fine. Just don't do it  
>> at a venue that should be PAYING for live music!
>>
>>
>> Steve Goodson
>> Saxophone Designer to the Stars
>> our products are all rated
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
>>
>> <mime-attachment.jpeg>
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve is a member of
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> PLEASE VISIT MY WEBSITES
>> http://www.nationofmusic.com/ (retail sales and discussion forum)
>> http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/SaxophoneRepair/  (discussion  
>> group)
>> http://www.saxgourmet.com/  (saxophone history and information)
>> http://saxophonethoughts.blogspot.com/  (my personal saxophone blog)
>>
>> READ MY ARTICLES ON SAXOPHONE DESIGN IN EACH ISSUE OF THE SAXOPHONE  
>> JOURNAL
>>
>> BASIC SHOP RATE................$100/HR
>> IF YOU WATCH.....................$125/HR
>> IF YOU ASK QUESTIONS......$150/HR
>> IF I HAVE TO LISTEN TO A CONCERT
>> LONGER THAN FIVE MINUTES WHEN
>> YOU PICK UP YOUR HORN....$250/HR
>>
>> The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long  
>> plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die  
>> like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson
>>
>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any  
>> attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and  
>> may contain confidential and privileged information or otherwise  
>> protected by law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or  
>> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,  
>> please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of  
>> the original message.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 6, 2010, at 7:26 AM, Jeff Grimes wrote:
>>
>>> [Attachment(s) from Jeff Grimes included below]
>>>
>>> Whatever happened to old fashioned Jam Sessions? We're trying to  
>>> bring them back in Goldsboro. All musicians and music lovers  
>>> invited...
>>>
>>

This is a classic problem.  It is easily solved by having an agreement in writing with the clubowner that any money over a certain minimum will be split among the musicians and the club with an agreed upon division.  If there is any suspicion about the "count" then have two people verify it.  I know a lot of bands that work for the door, and insist they have their own person at the door.  When I worked for the door plus drink percentage, I insisted on a cash register tape, and we always had someone watch to make sure that the tape wasn't run sometime earlier during the gig, so your count would show up short.

When I used to play a regular jam in Oakland, as part of the main band, the band guys were paid, but the sitter-inners were not.  Those sitting in were limited to 3 tunes max.  

Even here, the clubowner exploited the band - the Sunday afternoon jam was often 6 or 7 hours long, but we got the same amount we did for the 9 - 1:30 sessions on Thurs, Fri and Sat.  They served a lot of alcohol at those jams...

Remember what the road to hell is paved with...

-Steve Keller

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...> wrote:
>
> I think these guys are well intentioned, but I'm willing to bet you  
> lunch that they all have nice cushy day jobs and are not in touch with  
> having to make a living strictly by playing. I don't know of any other  
> business where so many people give their services away for free and  
> allow others to profit from them. This sort of thing does a tremendous  
> disservice to the musical community. If professional musicians cannot  
> make a living, who will teach the next generation? The argument that  
> "this is not New Orleans" really hold water. If they think they can  
> draw a crowd with what they have to offer, then they are providing a  
> service that has value and should be paid accordingly. If the local  
> arts council wishes to sponsor such an event, that's fine, but the  
> arts council should seek and provide a venue where musicians are not  
> exploited.
> 
> Making a living as a player is hard enough without this sort of thing,  
> well intentioned or not. They need to consider the world of the  
> professional musician, not the weekend warrior. It's a very different  
> reality.
> 
> 
> On Oct 6, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Robert W. Smith wrote:
> 
> > My thought exactly Steve.
> >
> > On 10/6/2010 10:20 AM, STEVE GOODSON wrote:
> >>
> >> Just my opinion, but if whiskey is being sold at a profit, the  
> >> musicians should be paid. Club owners have been promoting this type  
> >> even for years in order to get free entertainment. If ANYBODY is  
> >> getting paid, or ANY money is being made, the musicians should be  
> >> paid. This is simply exploitation, nothing more. It's right up  
> >> there with "showcases".
> >>
> >> Seriously, if you support this sort of thing, don't bitch about low  
> >> wages or lack of work for professional musicians. I don't see  
> >> plumbers or electricians working for free so somebody else can  
> >> profit from their labor.
> >>
> >> If you want to get together and play, that's fine. Just don't do it  
> >> at a venue that should be PAYING for live music!
> >>
> >>
> >> Steve Goodson
> >> Saxophone Designer to the Stars
> >> our products are all rated
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
> >>
> >> <mime-attachment.jpeg>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Steve is a member of
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> PLEASE VISIT MY WEBSITES
> >> http://www.nationofmusic.com/ (retail sales and discussion forum)
> >> http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/SaxophoneRepair/  (discussion  
> >> group)
> >> http://www.saxgourmet.com/  (saxophone history and information)
> >> http://saxophonethoughts.blogspot.com/  (my personal saxophone blog)
> >>
> >> READ MY ARTICLES ON SAXOPHONE DESIGN IN EACH ISSUE OF THE SAXOPHONE  
> >> JOURNAL
> >>
> >> BASIC SHOP RATE................$100/HR
> >> IF YOU WATCH.....................$125/HR
> >> IF YOU ASK QUESTIONS......$150/HR
> >> IF I HAVE TO LISTEN TO A CONCERT
> >> LONGER THAN FIVE MINUTES WHEN
> >> YOU PICK UP YOUR HORN....$250/HR
> >>
> >> The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long  
> >> plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die  
> >> like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson
> >>
> >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any  
> >> attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and  
> >> may contain confidential and privileged information or otherwise  
> >> protected by law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or  
> >> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,  
> >> please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of  
> >> the original message.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Oct 6, 2010, at 7:26 AM, Jeff Grimes wrote:
> >>
> >>> [Attachment(s) from Jeff Grimes included below]
> >>>
> >>> Whatever happened to old fashioned Jam Sessions? We're trying to  
> >>> bring them back in Goldsboro. All musicians and music lovers  
> >>> invited...
> >>>
> >>
>

The real root of the problem is not just the exploitation of musicians  
by  club owners who don't want to pay a dime they don't have to, it's  
amateur musicians who want to live out their fantasy while taking work  
away from people who are trying to make a living. If the amateur in  
question works a day job as, say, a plumber, I would suspect they  
would strongly object to somebody going around fixing pipes for free.  
The solution is a dedicated venue for amateurs only, no liquor sold,  
where there is no competition with people who are trying to make a  
full time living. They could then play and jam to their heart's  
content, without hurting the people who are in the business full time.  
Music attracts a lot of part-timers, who probably couldn't make a full  
time living as players. This is not allowed in most professions, and  
should not be in music. I think it's perfectly OK for the amateurs to  
get together and play, so long as they don't interfere with the  
livelihood of the people who actually make the industry possible: the  
full time professional players.


On Oct 6, 2010, at 2:55 PM, Steve Keller wrote:

> This is a classic problem. It is easily solved by having an  
> agreement in writing with the clubowner that any money over a  
> certain minimum will be split among the musicians and the club with  
> an agreed upon division. If there is any suspicion about the "count"  
> then have two people verify it. I know a lot of bands that work for  
> the door, and insist they have their own person at the door. When I  
> worked for the door plus drink percentage, I insisted on a cash  
> register tape, and we always had someone watch to make sure that the  
> tape wasn't run sometime earlier during the gig, so your count would  
> show up short.
>
> When I used to play a regular jam in Oakland, as part of the main  
> band, the band guys were paid, but the sitter-inners were not. Those  
> sitting in were limited to 3 tunes max.
>
> Even here, the clubowner exploited the band - the Sunday afternoon  
> jam was often 6 or 7 hours long, but we got the same amount we did  
> for the 9 - 1:30 sessions on Thurs, Fri and Sat. They served a lot  
> of alcohol at those jams...
>
> Remember what the road to hell is paved with...
>
> -Steve Keller
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, STEVE GOODSON  
> <saxgourmet@...> wrote:
> >
> > I think these guys are well intentioned, but I'm willing to bet you
> > lunch that they all have nice cushy day jobs and are not in touch  
> with
> > having to make a living strictly by playing. I don't know of any  
> other
> > business where so many people give their services away for free and
> > allow others to profit from them. This sort of thing does a  
> tremendous
> > disservice to the musical community. If professional musicians  
> cannot
> > make a living, who will teach the next generation? The argument that
> > "this is not New Orleans" really hold water. If they think they can
> > draw a crowd with what they have to offer, then they are providing a
> > service that has value and should be paid accordingly. If the local
> > arts council wishes to sponsor such an event, that's fine, but the
> > arts council should seek and provide a venue where musicians are not
> > exploited.
> >
> > Making a living as a player is hard enough without this sort of  
> thing,
> > well intentioned or not. They need to consider the world of the
> > professional musician, not the weekend warrior. It's a very  
> different
> > reality.
> >
> >
> > On Oct 6, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Robert W. Smith wrote:
> >
> > > My thought exactly Steve.
> > >
> > > On 10/6/2010 10:20 AM, STEVE GOODSON wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Just my opinion, but if whiskey is being sold at a profit, the
> > >> musicians should be paid. Club owners have been promoting this  
> type
> > >> even for years in order to get free entertainment. If ANYBODY is
> > >> getting paid, or ANY money is being made, the musicians should be
> > >> paid. This is simply exploitation, nothing more. It's right up
> > >> there with "showcases".
> > >>
> > >> Seriously, if you support this sort of thing, don't bitch about  
> low
> > >> wages or lack of work for professional musicians. I don't see
> > >> plumbers or electricians working for free so somebody else can
> > >> profit from their labor.
> > >>
> > >> If you want to get together and play, that's fine. Just don't  
> do it
> > >> at a venue that should be PAYING for live music!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Steve Goodson
> > >> Saxophone Designer to the Stars
> > >> our products are all rated
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
> > >>
> > >> <mime-attachment.jpeg>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Steve is a member of
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> PLEASE VISIT MY WEBSITES
> > >> http://www.nationofmusic.com/ (retail sales and discussion forum)
> > >> http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/SaxophoneRepair/ (discussion
> > >> group)
> > >> http://www.saxgourmet.com/ (saxophone history and information)
> > >> http://saxophonethoughts.blogspot.com/ (my personal saxophone  
> blog)
> > >>
> > >> READ MY ARTICLES ON SAXOPHONE DESIGN IN EACH ISSUE OF THE  
> SAXOPHONE
> > >> JOURNAL
> > >>
> > >> BASIC SHOP RATE................$100/HR
> > >> IF YOU WATCH.....................$125/HR
> > >> IF YOU ASK QUESTIONS......$150/HR
> > >> IF I HAVE TO LISTEN TO A CONCERT
> > >> LONGER THAN FIVE MINUTES WHEN
> > >> YOU PICK UP YOUR HORN....$250/HR
> > >>
> > >> The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long
> > >> plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die
> > >> like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson
> > >>
> > >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any
> > >> attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and
> > >> may contain confidential and privileged information or otherwise
> > >> protected by law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
> > >> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended  
> recipient,
> > >> please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all  
> copies of
> > >> the original message.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Oct 6, 2010, at 7:26 AM, Jeff Grimes wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> [Attachment(s) from Jeff Grimes included below]
> > >>>
> > >>> Whatever happened to old fashioned Jam Sessions? We're trying to
> > >>> bring them back in Goldsboro. All musicians and music lovers
> > >>> invited...
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
>
>
> 

I'm not sure this debate is best had on the mouthpiece work group.but I
can't help but dive in.

 

Since when, in this gloriously free country of ours, did it become a crime
for an amateur to want to have a venue to play music.just for fun?  If I
participate in a jam session, I'm probably having my fair share of whiskey,
or other beverage of choice, too.  The "entertainment" is as much for my
benefit as the performer as it is for the casual listener in the audience.
And as for that casual listener, they can clearly see the difference in
quality between a performing pro and the amateur hack like myself.  They too
are getting what they pay for.  The club owner who risks his or her capital
to provide such a venue, who BTW may or may not serve more covers and
generate more profit by doing so vs. a pay for music business model, still
deserves to get paid.  All constituents involved are big boys and girls and
know what they are participating in.

 

For the pro musician to suggest that jam sessions are "harming" them
financially by stealing gigs away is somewhat akin to my beloved Carolina
Hurricanes professional hockey team suggesting that the local ice rink is
harming their business by allowing the amateur to play hockey in a
recreational league.  To that I would say, give me a break.

 

Rant complete.back to uneven rails and facing curves.  :-)

 

Sometimes the so called ”pros” are long time players with lack of skills on their instruments, just being playing a horn for 15 years doesn't make anyboby ”pro” in the other hand a ”pro” will play for drinks and some money??? The real pros are on concert or featured musicians... Just my opinion, let's get back to the mp's.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Michael Nordin" 
Sender: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:02:27 
To: 
Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re:Jam Sessions

I'm not sure this debate is best had on the mouthpiece work group.but I
can't help but dive in.

 

Since when, in this gloriously free country of ours, did it become a crime
for an amateur to want to have a venue to play music.just for fun?  If I
participate in a jam session, I'm probably having my fair share of whiskey,
or other beverage of choice, too.  The "entertainment" is as much for my
benefit as the performer as it is for the casual listener in the audience.
And as for that casual listener, they can clearly see the difference in
quality between a performing pro and the amateur hack like myself.  They too
are getting what they pay for.  The club owner who risks his or her capital
to provide such a venue, who BTW may or may not serve more covers and
generate more profit by doing so vs. a pay for music business model, still
deserves to get paid.  All constituents involved are big boys and girls and
know what they are participating in.

 

For the pro musician to suggest that jam sessions are "harming" them
financially by stealing gigs away is somewhat akin to my beloved Carolina
Hurricanes professional hockey team suggesting that the local ice rink is
harming their business by allowing the amateur to play hockey in a
recreational league.  To that I would say, give me a break.

 

Rant complete.back to uneven rails and facing curves.  :-)

 

I hate to say it, but the last couple of posts on this topic clearly show a total and complete lack of understanding concerning the reality of actually making a living as a full time musician.....you guys need to keep your day jobs

Steve Goodson
Saxophone Guru and Visionary
New Orleans

This email sent from my I Pad

On Oct 7, 2010, at 5:32 PM, daniel24672@... wrote:

> Sometimes the so called ”pros” are long time players with lack of skills on their instruments, just being playing a horn for 15 years doesn't make anyboby ”pro” in the other hand a ”pro” will play for drinks and some money??? The real pros are on concert or featured musicians... Just my opinion, let's get back to the mp's.
> 
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> 
> From: "Michael Nordin" <mnordinnc@...>
> Sender: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:02:27 -0400
> To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
> ReplyTo: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re:Jam Sessions
> 
>  
> I’m not sure this debate is best had on the mouthpiece work group…but I can’t help but dive in.
> 
>  
> 
> Since when, in this gloriously free country of ours, did it become a crime for an amateur to want to have a venue to play music…just for fun?  If I participate in a jam session, I’m probably having my fair share of whiskey, or other beverage of choice, too.  The “entertainment” is as much for my benefit as the performer as it is for the casual listener in the audience.  And as for that casual listener, they can clearly see the difference in quality between a performing pro and the amateur hack like myself.  They too are getting what they pay for.  The club owner who risks his or her capital to provide such a venue, who BTW may or may not serve more covers and generate more profit by doing so vs. a pay for music business model, still deserves to get paid.  All constituents involved are big boys and girls and know what they are participating in.
> 
>  
> 
> For the pro musician to suggest that jam sessions are “harming” them financially by stealing gigs away is somewhat akin to my beloved Carolina Hurricanes professional hockey team suggesting that the local ice rink is harming their business by allowing the amateur to play hockey in a recreational league.  To that I would say, give me a break.
> 
>  
> 
> Rant complete…back to uneven rails and facing curves.  J
> 
>  
> 
> 

Sorry but an opinion is an opinion I make a living playing as musician and recording and just saying what do you think it's part of the debate if someone hate my point of view show lack of understanding an opinion.
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-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Goodson 
Sender: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 17:37:11 
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re:Jam Sessions

I hate to say it, but the last couple of posts on this topic clearly show a total and complete lack of understanding concerning the reality of actually making a living as a full time musician.....you guys need to keep your day jobs

Steve Goodson
Saxophone Guru and Visionary
New Orleans

This email sent from my I Pad

On Oct 7, 2010, at 5:32 PM, daniel24672@yahoo.com wrote:

> Sometimes the so called ”pros” are long time players with lack of skills on their instruments, just being playing a horn for 15 years doesn't make anyboby ”pro” in the other hand a ”pro” will play for drinks and some money??? The real pros are on concert or featured musicians... Just my opinion, let's get back to the mp's.
> 
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> 
> From: "Michael Nordin" 
> Sender: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:02:27 -0400
> To: 
> ReplyTo: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re:Jam Sessions
> 
>  
> I’m not sure this debate is best had on the mouthpiece work group…but I can’t help but dive in.
> 
>  
> 
> Since when, in this gloriously free country of ours, did it become a crime for an amateur to want to have a venue to play music…just for fun?  If I participate in a jam session, I’m probably having my fair share of whiskey, or other beverage of choice, too.  The “entertainment” is as much for my benefit as the performer as it is for the casual listener in the audience.  And as for that casual listener, they can clearly see the difference in quality between a performing pro and the amateur hack like myself.  They too are getting what they pay for.  The club owner who risks his or her capital to provide such a venue, who BTW may or may not serve more covers and generate more profit by doing so vs. a pay for music business model, still deserves to get paid.  All constituents involved are big boys and girls and know what they are participating in.
> 
>  
> 
> For the pro musician to suggest that jam sessions are “harming” them financially by stealing gigs away is somewhat akin to my beloved Carolina Hurricanes professional hockey team suggesting that the local ice rink is harming their business by allowing the amateur to play hockey in a recreational league.  To that I would say, give me a break.
> 
>  
> 
> Rant complete…back to uneven rails and facing curves.  J
> 
>  
> 
> 

Well, it would be an issue if fans were to attend the amateur games rather than pay to see the pros. The so called Hurricanes might have to move back to Hartford. ;-)


On Oct 7, 2010, at 6:02 PM, Michael Nordin wrote:

> For the pro musician to suggest that jam sessions are “harming” them financially by stealing gigs away is somewhat akin to my beloved Carolina Hurricanes professional hockey team suggesting that the local ice rink is harming their business by allowing the amateur to play hockey in a recreational league.  To that I would say, give me a break.

No disrespect, but at one point (many, many moons ago) I did.  It's been a long time though so that's why I consider myself a hack amateur today.  And, I will keep my day job thank you very much.  I bet you will too.  It pays the bills!  :-)

There are a fair number of "pros" that couldn't carry a tune in a bucket.  But I don't believe that to be the case in the VAST majority of instances.  Those guys and gals (the majority of pros that is) are at a different level.

Put a different way, I don't see myself as "competing" against a pro musician.  They play to a market, one that the amateur doesn't have access to.  Nor would their audience tolerate paying to see me play (these days anyways) trust me on that one.  We are targeting dramatically different markets.  Using my prior analogy, the person that would spend $100 to go see a Hurricanes game wouldn't spend $.10 to see an amateur play in the rec league.  So goes the music biz.

So don't kid yourself into thinking that the pros and amateurs compete...because, not unlike the Bon Fils vs. your pro line horns, they do not.

Again, no disrespect, just a different opinion.

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Steve Goodson <saxgourmet@...> wrote:
>
> I hate to say it, but the last couple of posts on this topic clearly show a total and complete lack of understanding concerning the reality of actually making a living as a full time musician.....you guys need to keep your day jobs
> 
> Steve Goodson
> Saxophone Guru and Visionary
> New Orleans
> 
> This email sent from my I Pad
> 
> On Oct 7, 2010, at 5:32 PM, daniel24672@... wrote:
> 
> > Sometimes the so called ”pros” are long time players with lack of skills on their instruments, just being playing a horn for 15 years doesn't make anyboby ”pro” in the other hand a ”pro” will play for drinks and some money??? The real pros are on concert or featured musicians... Just my opinion, let's get back to the mp's.
> > 
> > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> > 
> > From: "Michael Nordin" <mnordinnc@...>
> > Sender: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:02:27 -0400
> > To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
> > ReplyTo: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re:Jam Sessions
> > 
> >  
> > I’m not sure this debate is best had on the mouthpiece work group…but I can’t help but dive in.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Since when, in this gloriously free country of ours, did it become a crime for an amateur to want to have a venue to play music…just for fun?  If I participate in a jam session, I’m probably having my fair share of whiskey, or other beverage of choice, too.  The “entertainment” is as much for my benefit as the performer as it is for the casual listener in the audience.  And as for that casual listener, they can clearly see the difference in quality between a performing pro and the amateur hack like myself.  They too are getting what they pay for.  The club owner who risks his or her capital to provide such a venue, who BTW may or may not serve more covers and generate more profit by doing so vs. a pay for music business model, still deserves to get paid.  All constituents involved are big boys and girls and know what they are participating in.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > For the pro musician to suggest that jam sessions are “harming” them financially by stealing gigs away is somewhat akin to my beloved Carolina Hurricanes professional hockey team suggesting that the local ice rink is harming their business by allowing the amateur to play hockey in a recreational league.  To that I would say, give me a break.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Rant complete…back to uneven rails and facing curves.  J
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >
>

I often go to a pub where there are Sunday lunchtime jam sessions. That is
what they are advertised as and that is what the audience expect. As far as
the players are concerned, it is as much a social function as a performance
function. The players are for the most part amateurs and do not expect
payment. The resident band are professionals and they get whatever is agreed
with the management, but they're not there on Sunday. The Sunday sit-ins are
there for fun. Certainly the management are making money, but they are also
paying the insurance and running costs and providing the venue. There are a
hard core of good amateur players who form the centre of the Sunday
sessions, and while they may be part-timers, they actually play better than
some bands I've paid good money to see. For the rest of the week,
performances at this venue are professional, paid performances but Sunday
afternoon is the amateurs playtime. Some of these amateurs go on to become
pro musos, but this is where they cut their teeth. This is where music
lives.

Tony F.

 

From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Michael Nordin
Sent: Friday, 8 October 2010 9:02 AM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re:Jam Sessions

 

  

I'm not sure this debate is best had on the mouthpiece work group.but I
can't help but dive in.

 

Since when, in this gloriously free country of ours, did it become a crime
for an amateur to want to have a venue to play music.just for fun?  If I
participate in a jam session, I'm probably having my fair share of whiskey,
or other beverage of choice, too.  The "entertainment" is as much for my
benefit as the performer as it is for the casual listener in the audience.
And as for that casual listener, they can clearly see the difference in
quality between a performing pro and the amateur hack like myself.  They too
are getting what they pay for.  The club owner who risks his or her capital
to provide such a venue, who BTW may or may not serve more covers and
generate more profit by doing so vs. a pay for music business model, still
deserves to get paid.  All constituents involved are big boys and girls and
know what they are participating in.

 

For the pro musician to suggest that jam sessions are "harming" them
financially by stealing gigs away is somewhat akin to my beloved Carolina
Hurricanes professional hockey team suggesting that the local ice rink is
harming their business by allowing the amateur to play hockey in a
recreational league.  To that I would say, give me a break.

 

Rant complete.back to uneven rails and facing curves.  J

 




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SPAMfighter has removed 464 of my spam emails to date.

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Try free scan! 

Our community band was never allowed to play in the city concert on the square series.  Our understanding was that they felt that scheduling an amateur group was "taking jobs away from union musicians."  They finally did have us play for two years, but not again this year.  They also do not invite us to participate in celebrations for the 4th of July, etc.  It is their loss, I figure, since we work really cheap.  It seems silly to us.  We DO play a major concert in a neighboring town every summer, and for annual Memorial Day observances at the American Legion hall in another neighboring town where we are appreciated for what we are.

Bill Hausmann

If you have to mic a saxophone, the rest of the band is TOO LOUD!

--- On Thu, 10/7/10, mnordinnc <mnordinnc@...> wrote:


From: mnordinnc <mnordinnc@...>
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re:Jam Sessions
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 8:07 PM


No disrespect, but at one point (many, many moons ago) I did.  It's been a long time though so that's why I consider myself a hack amateur today.  And, I will keep my day job thank you very much.  I bet you will too.  It pays the bills!  :-)

There are a fair number of "pros" that couldn't carry a tune in a bucket.  But I don't believe that to be the case in the VAST majority of instances.  Those guys and gals (the majority of pros that is) are at a different level.

Put a different way, I don't see myself as "competing" against a pro musician.  They play to a market, one that the amateur doesn't have access to.  Nor would their audience tolerate paying to see me play (these days anyways) trust me on that one.  We are targeting dramatically different markets.  Using my prior analogy, the person that would spend $100 to go see a Hurricanes game wouldn't spend $.10 to see an amateur play in the rec league.  So goes the music biz.

So don't kid yourself into thinking that the pros and amateurs compete...because, not unlike the Bon Fils vs. your pro line horns, they do not.

Again, no disrespect, just a different opinion.

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Steve Goodson <saxgourmet@...> wrote:
>
> I hate to say it, but the last couple of posts on this topic clearly show a total and complete lack of understanding concerning the reality of actually making a living as a full time musician.....you guys need to keep your day jobs
> 
> Steve Goodson
> Saxophone Guru and Visionary
> New Orleans
> 
> This email sent from my I Pad
> 
> On Oct 7, 2010, at 5:32 PM, daniel24672@... wrote:
> 
> > Sometimes the so called ”pros” are long time players with lack of skills on their instruments, just being playing a horn for 15 years doesn't make anyboby ”pro” in the other hand a ”pro” will play for drinks and some money??? The real pros are on concert or featured musicians... Just my opinion, let's get back to the mp's.
> > 
> > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> > 
> > From: "Michael Nordin" <mnordinnc@...>
> > Sender: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:02:27 -0400
> > To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
> > ReplyTo: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re:Jam Sessions
> > 
> >  
> > I’m not sure this debate is best had on the mouthpiece work group…but I can’t help but dive in.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Since when, in this gloriously free country of ours, did it become a crime for an amateur to want to have a venue to play music…just for fun?  If I participate in a jam session, I’m probably having my fair share of whiskey, or other beverage of choice, too.  The “entertainment” is as much for my benefit as the performer as it is for the casual listener in the audience.  And as for that casual listener, they can clearly see the difference in quality between a performing pro and the amateur hack like myself.  They too are getting what they pay for.  The club owner who risks his or her capital to provide such a venue, who BTW may or may not serve more covers and generate more profit by doing so vs. a pay for music business model, still deserves to get paid.  All constituents involved are big boys and girls and know what they are participating in.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > For the pro musician to suggest that jam sessions are “harming” them financially by stealing gigs away is somewhat akin to my beloved Carolina Hurricanes professional hockey team suggesting that the local ice rink is harming their business by allowing the amateur to play hockey in a recreational league.  To that I would say, give me a break.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Rant complete…back to uneven rails and facing curves.  J
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >
>




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