In my attempts at getting a flat table I draw the mouthpiece straight back with my index finger on the top...centered.  It sometimes happens that I'm noticing a slightly cockeyed facing emerging.  Would you recommend a slight weight shift to even this out a bit. I realize these uneven numbers can be corrected later when putting the facing on but just wondered if I could compromise a bit here to make for less adjustment later. My adjustment would be placing the index finger slightly to one side of the mouthpiece.  Finally, is there a good test to evaluate the flatness of the table?

We lap our tables into flatness by drawing the mouthpiece in multiple  
directions: side to side, back and forth, and diagonally. We also  
reverse the direction of the cut by turning the mouthpiece around, and  
repeat. Before too long, you will see a pattern developing on the  
table that will indicate the high and low spots. Good lighting is a  
must!



On Jun 22, 2010, at 10:57 AM, John wrote:

> In my attempts at getting a flat table I draw the mouthpiece  
> straight back with my index finger on the top...centered. It  
> sometimes happens that I'm noticing a slightly cockeyed facing  
> emerging. Would you recommend a slight weight shift to even this out  
> a bit. I realize these uneven numbers can be corrected later when  
> putting the facing on but just wondered if I could compromise a bit  
> here to make for less adjustment later. My adjustment would be  
> placing the index finger slightly to one side of the mouthpiece.  
> Finally, is there a good test to evaluate the flatness of the table?
>
>
> 

I find if the table is concave, you can lap in many directions and still make progress.  But if it is convex, the leading edge of you lap direction tends to dig into the sandpaper and you can easily make the table even more convex.  So you need to be aware of this and compensate by how you grip the mouthpiece and apply some force to it as you draw it.  I have a slide show presentation on my site that illustrates what I'm talking about.

As for one side rail being higher than the other, you can tilt the table to correct some of this.  If the tip rail and baffle look real nice, it may be worth doing this.  But if you need to do a lot of tip shaping as part of the job, it is better to just get a flat table then work all the rails as needed IMO.
 

Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
2925 Crane St., Vineland, NJ 08361 
Paypal to sabradbury79@... 
Check out: http://www.MojoMouthpieceWork.com
...and: http://www.facebook.com/mojomouthpiecework




________________________________
From: John <john_w_price33@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 11:57:42 AM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] basics of getting a flat table

  
In my attempts at getting a flat table I draw the mouthpiece straight back with my index finger on the top...centered. It sometimes happens that I'm noticing a slightly cockeyed facing emerging. Would you recommend a slight weight shift to even this out a bit. I realize these uneven numbers can be corrected later when putting the facing on but just wondered if I could compromise a bit here to make for less adjustment later. My adjustment would be placing the index finger slightly to one side of the mouthpiece. Finally, is there a good test to evaluate the flatness of the table?






      

I'll just add that to test flatness I use a precision steel straight edge rule from Starrett<http://www.starrett.com/index.cfm>.

Matt





Do not include private or personal financial information in your email correspondence unless you are utilizing the Sterling secure email server.  To send a secure email, go to www.SterlingNationalBank.com.<http://www.sterlingnationalbank.com/>



From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith Bradbury
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 1:12 PM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] basics of getting a flat table



I find if the table is concave, you can lap in many directions and still make progress.  But if it is convex, the leading edge of you lap direction tends to dig into the sandpaper and you can easily make the table even more convex.  So you need to be aware of this and compensate by how you grip the mouthpiece and apply some force to it as you draw it.  I have a slide show presentation on my site that illustrates what I'm talking about.

As for one side rail being higher than the other, you can tilt the table to correct some of this.  If the tip rail and baffle look real nice, it may be worth doing this.  But if you need to do a lot of tip shaping as part of the job, it is better to just get a flat table then work all the rails as needed IMO.


Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
2925 Crane St., Vineland, NJ 08361
Paypal to sabradbury79@...<mailto:sabradbury79@yahoo.com>
Check out: http://www.MojoMouthpieceWork.com<http://www.mojomouthpiecework.com/>
...and: http://www.facebook.com/mojomouthpiecework


________________________________
From: John <john_w_price33@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 11:57:42 AM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] basics of getting a flat table



In my attempts at getting a flat table I draw the mouthpiece straight back with my index finger on the top...centered. It sometimes happens that I'm noticing a slightly cockeyed facing emerging. Would you recommend a slight weight shift to even this out a bit. I realize these uneven numbers can be corrected later when putting the facing on but just wondered if I could compromise a bit here to make for less adjustment later. My adjustment would be placing the index finger slightly to one side of the mouthpiece. Finally, is there a good test to evaluate the flatness of the table?

Great stuff guys.  thanks   John

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Voss, Matthew" <matthew.voss@...> wrote:
>
> I'll just add that to test flatness I use a precision steel straight edge rule from Starrett<http://www.starrett.com/index.cfm>.
> 
> Matt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do not include private or personal financial information in your email correspondence unless you are utilizing the Sterling secure email server.  To send a secure email, go to www.SterlingNationalBank.com.<http://www.sterlingnationalbank.com/>
> 
> 
> 
> From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith Bradbury
> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 1:12 PM
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] basics of getting a flat table
> 
> 
> 
> I find if the table is concave, you can lap in many directions and still make progress.  But if it is convex, the leading edge of you lap direction tends to dig into the sandpaper and you can easily make the table even more convex.  So you need to be aware of this and compensate by how you grip the mouthpiece and apply some force to it as you draw it.  I have a slide show presentation on my site that illustrates what I'm talking about.
> 
> As for one side rail being higher than the other, you can tilt the table to correct some of this.  If the tip rail and baffle look real nice, it may be worth doing this.  But if you need to do a lot of tip shaping as part of the job, it is better to just get a flat table then work all the rails as needed IMO.
> 
> 
> Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
> 2925 Crane St., Vineland, NJ 08361
> Paypal to sabradbury79@...<mailto:sabradbury79@...>
> Check out: http://www.MojoMouthpieceWork.com<http://www.mojomouthpiecework.com/>
> ...and: http://www.facebook.com/mojomouthpiecework
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: John <john_w_price33@...>
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 11:57:42 AM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] basics of getting a flat table
> 
> 
> 
> In my attempts at getting a flat table I draw the mouthpiece straight back with my index finger on the top...centered. It sometimes happens that I'm noticing a slightly cockeyed facing emerging. Would you recommend a slight weight shift to even this out a bit. I realize these uneven numbers can be corrected later when putting the facing on but just wondered if I could compromise a bit here to make for less adjustment later. My adjustment would be placing the index finger slightly to one side of the mouthpiece. Finally, is there a good test to evaluate the flatness of the table?
>

This html message parsed with html2text ---------------------------I've found it useful to take the .0015 measurement with my thumb close to the
glass gauge marking I'd expect (like pressing my thumb on the gauge around 60
for a tenor piece), then checking it with my thumb pressing much farther down
the gauge (near the heel of the table). If the measurement is the same, the
table should be flat. This won't detect a concave table, but if I've been
flattening it with sandpaper on plate glass, it won't be concave - the only
problem would be if it were convex (i.e., had a higher spot somewhere in the
middle), and this finds it pretty well.  
  
Dan T  
  
John wrote:

> Great stuff guys. thanks John  
>  
>  \\--- In
> [MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com](mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com),
> "Voss, Matthew" [](mailto:matthew.voss@...) wrote:  
>  >  
>  > I'll just add that to test flatness I use a precision steel straight edge
> rule from Starrett<>.  
>  >  
>  > Matt  
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  
>  > Do not include private or personal financial information in your email
> correspondence unless you are utilizing the Sterling secure email server. To
> send a secure email, go to
> [www.SterlingNationalBank.com](http://www.SterlingNationalBank.com).<>  
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  
>  > From:
> [MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com](mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com)
> [mailto:[MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com](mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com)]
> On Behalf Of Keith Bradbury  
>  > Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 1:12 PM  
>  > To:
> [MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com](mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com)  
>  > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] basics of getting a flat table  
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  
>  > I find if the table is concave, you can lap in many directions and still
> make progress. But if it is convex, the leading edge of you lap direction
> tends to dig into the sandpaper and you can easily make the table even more
> convex. So you need to be aware of this and compensate by how you grip the
> mouthpiece and apply some force to it as you draw it. I have a slide show
> presentation on my site that illustrates what I'm talking about.  
>  >  
>  > As for one side rail being higher than the other, you can tilt the table
> to correct some of this. If the tip rail and baffle look real nice, it may
> be worth doing this. But if you need to do a lot of tip shaping as part of
> the job, it is better to just get a flat table then work all the rails as
> needed IMO.  
>  >  
>  >  
>  > Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC  
>  > 2925 Crane St., Vineland, NJ 08361  
>  > Paypal to sabradbury79@...[](mailto:sabradbury79@...)  
>  > Check out:
> <>  
>  > ...and:   
>  >  
>  >  
>  > ________________________________  
>  > From: John [](mailto:john_w_price33@...)  
>  > To:
> [MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com](mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com)  
>  > Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 11:57:42 AM  
>  > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] basics of getting a flat table  
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  
>  > In my attempts at getting a flat table I draw the mouthpiece straight
> back with my index finger on the top...centered. It sometimes happens that
> I'm noticing a slightly cockeyed facing emerging. Would you recommend a
> slight weight shift to even this out a bit. I realize these uneven numbers
> can be corrected later when putting the facing on but just wondered if I
> could compromise a bit here to make for less adjustment later. My adjustment
> would be placing the index finger slightly to one side of the mouthpiece.
> Finally, is there a good test to evaluate the flatness of the table?  
>  >  
>  
>

 "I've found it useful to take the .0015 measurement with my thumb close to
the glass gauge marking I'd expect (like pressing my thumb on the gauge
around 60 for a tenor piece), then checking it with my thumb pressing much
farther down the gauge (near the heel of the table).  If the measurement is
the same, the table should be flat.  This won't detect a concave table, but
if I've been flattening it with sandpaper on plate glass, it won't be
concave - the only problem would be if it were convex (i.e., had a higher
spot somewhere in the middle), and this finds it pretty well."


What is your tolerance for this Dan?
I wanted to ask the forum this question long time ago.
Greetings,
Sakshama


On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 5:14 AM, Dan Torosian <dtorosian@...>wrote:

>
>
> I've found it useful to take the .0015 measurement with my thumb close to
> the glass gauge marking I'd expect (like pressing my thumb on the gauge
> around 60 for a tenor piece), then checking it with my thumb pressing much
> farther down the gauge (near the heel of the table).  If the measurement is
> the same, the table should be flat.  This won't detect a concave table, but
> if I've been flattening it with sandpaper on plate glass, it won't be
> concave - the only problem would be if it were convex (i.e., had a higher
> spot somewhere in the middle), and this finds it pretty well.
>
> Dan T
>
>
> John wrote:
>
>
>
> Great stuff guys. thanks John
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com <MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Voss, Matthew" <matthew.voss@...> <matthew.voss@...> wrote:
> >
> > I'll just add that to test flatness I use a precision steel straight edge
> rule from Starrett<http://www.starrett.com/index.cfm>.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Do not include private or personal financial information in your email
> correspondence unless you are utilizing the Sterling secure email server. To
> send a secure email, go to www.SterlingNationalBank.com.<
> http://www.sterlingnationalbank.com/>
> >
> >
> >
> > From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com <MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com <MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>] On
> Behalf Of Keith Bradbury
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 1:12 PM
> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com <MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] basics of getting a flat table
> >
> >
> >
> > I find if the table is concave, you can lap in many directions and still
> make progress. But if it is convex, the leading edge of you lap direction
> tends to dig into the sandpaper and you can easily make the table even more
> convex. So you need to be aware of this and compensate by how you grip the
> mouthpiece and apply some force to it as you draw it. I have a slide show
> presentation on my site that illustrates what I'm talking about.
> >
> > As for one side rail being higher than the other, you can tilt the table
> to correct some of this. If the tip rail and baffle look real nice, it may
> be worth doing this. But if you need to do a lot of tip shaping as part of
> the job, it is better to just get a flat table then work all the rails as
> needed IMO.
> >
> >
> > Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
> > 2925 Crane St., Vineland, NJ 08361
> > Paypal to sabradbury79@...<mailto:sabradbury79@...> <sabradbury79@...>
> > Check out: http://www.MojoMouthpieceWork.com<
> http://www.mojomouthpiecework.com/>
> > ...and: http://www.facebook.com/mojomouthpiecework
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: John <john_w_price33@...> <john_w_price33@...>
> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com <MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 11:57:42 AM
> > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] basics of getting a flat table
> >
> >
> >
> > In my attempts at getting a flat table I draw the mouthpiece straight
> back with my index finger on the top...centered. It sometimes happens that
> I'm noticing a slightly cockeyed facing emerging. Would you recommend a
> slight weight shift to even this out a bit. I realize these uneven numbers
> can be corrected later when putting the facing on but just wondered if I
> could compromise a bit here to make for less adjustment later. My adjustment
> would be placing the index finger slightly to one side of the mouthpiece.
> Finally, is there a good test to evaluate the flatness of the table?
> >
>
>    
>



-- 
Sakshama

This html message parsed with html2text ---------------------------I don't know what the tolerances are - I just know that if the .0015 feeler
stays put, the table isn't convex for the practical purposes of refacing.  
  
DT  
  
Sakshama Koloski wrote:

> �
>
> "I've found it useful to take the .0015 measurement with my thumb close to
> the glass gauge marking I'd expect (like pressing my thumb on the gauge
> around 60 for a tenor piece), then checking it with my thumb pressing much
> farther down the gauge (near the heel of the table).� If the measurement is
> the same, the table should be flat.� This won't detect a concave table, but
> if I've been flattening it with sandpaper on plate glass, it won't be
> concave - the only problem would be if it were convex (i.e., had a higher
> spot somewhere in the middle), and this finds it pretty well."  
>  
>  
>  What is your tolerance for this Dan?  
>  I wanted to ask the forum this question long time ago.  
>  Greetings,  
>  Sakshama  
>  
>  
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 5:14 AM, Dan Torosian
> <[dtorosian@sbcglobal.net](mailto:dtorosian@...)> wrote:  
>
>

>> �

>>

>> I've found it useful to take the .0015 measurement with my thumb close to
the glass gauge marking I'd expect (like pressing my thumb on the gauge around
60 for a tenor piece), then checking it with my thumb pressing much farther
down the gauge (near the heel of the table).� If the measurement is the same,
the table should be flat.� This won't detect a concave table, but if I've been
flattening it with sandpaper on plate glass, it won't be concave - the only
problem would be if it were convex (i.e., had a higher spot somewhere in the
middle), and this finds it pretty well.  
>  
>  Dan T
>>

>>  
>  
>  John wrote:
>>

>>> �

>>>

>>> Great stuff guys. thanks John  
>  
>  \\--- In
> [MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com](mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com),
> "Voss, Matthew" [...>](mailto:matthew.voss@...) wrote:  
>  >  
>  > I'll just add that to test flatness I use a precision steel straight edge
> rule from
> Starrett<[http://www.starrett.com/index.cfm](http://www.starrett.com/index.cfm)>.  
>  >  
>  > Matt  
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  
>  > Do not include private or personal financial information in your email
> correspondence unless you are utilizing the Sterling secure email server. To
> send a secure email, go to
> [www.SterlingNationalBank.com](http://www.SterlingNationalBank.com).<[http://www.sterlingnationalbank.com/](http://www.sterlingnationalbank.com/)>  
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  
>  > From:
> [MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com](mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com)
> [mailto:[MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com](mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com)]
> On Behalf Of Keith Bradbury  
>  > Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 1:12 PM  
>  > To:
> [MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com](mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com)  
>  > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] basics of getting a flat table  
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  
>  > I find if the table is concave, you can lap in many directions and still
> make progress. But if it is convex, the leading edge of you lap direction
> tends to dig into the sandpaper and you can easily make the table even more
> convex. So you need to be aware of this and compensate by how you grip the
> mouthpiece and apply some force to it as you draw it. I have a slide show
> presentation on my site that illustrates what I'm talking about.  
>  >  
>  > As for one side rail being higher than the other, you can tilt the table
> to correct some of this. If the tip rail and baffle look real nice, it may
> be worth doing this. But if you need to do a lot of tip shaping as part of
> the job, it is better to just get a flat table then work all the rails as
> needed IMO.  
>  >  
>  >  
>  > Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC  
>  > 2925 Crane St., Vineland, NJ 08361  
>  > Paypal to sabradbury79@...[@...>](mailto:sabradbury79@...)  
>  > Check out:
> [http://www.MojoMouthpieceWork.com](http://www.MojoMouthpieceWork.com)<[http://www.mojomouthpiecework.com/](http://www.mojomouthpiecework.com/)>  
>  > ...and:
> [http://www.facebook.com/mojomouthpiecework](http://www.facebook.com/mojomouthpiecework)  
>  >  
>  >  
>  > ________________________________  
>  > From: John [...>](mailto:john_w_price33@...)  
>  > To:
> [MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com](mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com)  
>  > Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 11:57:42 AM  
>  > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] basics of getting a flat table  
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  
>  > In my attempts at getting a flat table I draw the mouthpiece straight
> back with my index finger on the top...centered. It sometimes happens that
> I'm noticing a slightly cockeyed facing emerging. Would you recommend a
> slight weight shift to even this out a bit. I realize these uneven numbers
> can be corrected later when putting the facing on but just wondered if I
> could compromise a bit here to make for less adjustment later. My adjustment
> would be placing the index finger slightly to one side of the mouthpiece.
> Finally, is there a good test to evaluate the flatness of the table?  
>  >  
>  
>
>
>  
>  
>  
>  \\--  
>  Sakshama  
>

I think he was asking how much do you allow the facing length measurement to change as you move your thumb down the glass gage.  I think your answer is "none".

I also find if the glass gage is hard to hold in place and wants to swivel under your thumb, you have a high spot on the table.  You can also feel if you have a grain of sand from the sand paper between the table and the glass gage.  This scratches up your gage over time.  So you need to get in the habit of trying to keep make these surfaces clean before measuring.




________________________________
From: Dan Torosian <dtorosian@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, June 23, 2010 8:18:17 AM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: basics of getting a flat table

  
I don't know what the tolerances are - I just know that if the .0015 feeler stays put, the table isn't convex for the practical purposes of refacing.

DT

Sakshama Koloski wrote: 
  
>"I've found it useful to take the .0015 measurement with my thumb close to the glass gauge marking I'd expect (like pressing my thumb on the gauge around 60 for a tenor piece), then checking it with my thumb pressing much farther down the gauge (near the heel of the table).  If the measurement is the same, the table should be flat.  This won't detect a concave table, but if I've been flattening it with sandpaper on plate glass, it won't be concave - the only problem would be if it were convex (i.e., had a higher spot somewhere in the middle), and this finds it pretty well."
>
>
>What is your tolerance for this Dan?
>I wanted to ask the forum this question long time ago.
>Greetings,
>Sakshama
>
>
>
>On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 5:14 AM, Dan Torosian <dtorosian@sbcglobal .net> wrote:
>
>  
>>I've found it useful to take the .0015 measurement with my thumb close to the glass gauge marking I'd expect (like pressing my thumb on the gauge around 60 for a tenor piece), then checking it with my thumb pressing much farther down the gauge (near the heel of the table).  If the measurement is the same, the table should be flat.  This won't detect a concave table, but if I've been flattening it with sandpaper on plate glass, it won't be concave - the only problem would be if it were convex (i.e., had a higher spot somewhere in the middle), and this finds it pretty well.
>>
>>Dan T
>>
>>
>>John wrote: 
>>  
>>>Great stuff guys. thanks John
>>>
>>>--- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "Voss, Matthew" <matthew.voss@ ...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'll just add that to test flatness I use a precision steel straight edge rule from Starrett<http://www.starrett .com/index. cfm>.
>>>> 
>>>> Matt
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Do not include private or personal financial information in your email correspondence unless you are utilizing the Sterling secure email server. To send a secure email, go to www.SterlingNationa lBank.com.<http://www.sterling nationalbank. com/>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> From: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Keith Bradbury
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 1:12 PM
>>>> To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
>>>> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] basics of getting a flat table
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I find if the table is concave, you can lap in many directions and still make progress. But if it is convex, the leading edge of you lap direction tends to dig into the sandpaper and you can easily make the table even more convex. So you need to be aware of this and compensate by how you grip the mouthpiece and apply some force to it as you draw it. I have a slide show presentation on my site that illustrates what I'm talking about.
>>>> 
>>>> As for one side rail being higher than the other, you can tilt the table to correct some of this. If the tip rail and baffle look real nice, it may be worth doing this. But if you need to do a lot of tip shaping as part of the job, it is better to just get a flat table then work all the rails as needed IMO.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
>>>> 2925 Crane St., Vineland, NJ 08361
>>>> Paypal to sabradbury79@ ...<mailto:sabradbury79 @...>
>>>> Check out: http://www.MojoMout hpieceWork. com<http://www.mojomout hpiecework. com/>
>>>> ...and: http://www.facebook.com/mojomouthpiecework
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ____________ _________ _________ __
>>>> From: John <john_w_price33@ ...>
>>>> To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
>>>> Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 11:57:42 AM
>>>> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] basics of getting a flat table
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> In my attempts at getting a flat table I draw the mouthpiece straight back with my index finger on the top...centered. It sometimes happens that I'm noticing a slightly cockeyed facing emerging. Would you recommend a slight weight shift to even this out a bit. I realize these uneven numbers can be corrected later when putting the facing on but just wondered if I could compromise a bit here to make for less adjustment later. My adjustment would be placing the index finger slightly to one side of the mouthpiece. Finally, is there a good test to evaluate the flatness of the table?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>-- 
>Sakshama
>



      

Another test of a "true" table is the method of moderately wetting the table and adhering the mouthpiece to the glass with the mouthpiece under the glass.  If it stays put and does not rotate or fall off for a good length of time you have a level table.  

Be ready to catch the mouthpiece or have padding beneath to prevent damages from the forces of gravity. 

Yes, about thumb position, and also, wipe the mouthpiece clean, and the glass gauge clean every time you measure.

Paul

This html message parsed with html2text ---------------------------Yes, true - thanks for clarifying. With metal mouthpieces in particular,
setting it on glass and trying to gently spin it can find major high spots -
tap the side of the shank and see if it spins at all. It's a pretty coarse
test, but it can graphically illustrate to the client that his mouthpiece has
a convex table.  
  
DT  
  
Keith Bradbury wrote:

> I think he was asking how much do you allow the facing length measurement to
> change as you move your thumb down the glass gage. I think your answer is
> "none".
>
> I also find if the glass gage is hard to hold in place and wants to swivel
> under your thumb, you have a high spot on the table. You can also feel if
> you have a grain of sand from the sand paper between the table and the glass
> gage. This scratches up your gage over time. So you need to get in the habit
> of trying to keep make these surfaces clean before measuring.  
>
>
>  
>
>
> * * *
>
> **From:** Dan Torosian .net>  
>  **To:** MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com  
>  **Sent:** Wed, June 23, 2010 8:18:17 AM  
>  **Subject:** Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: basics of getting a flat table  
>  
>
>
> I don't know what the tolerances are - I just know that if the .0015 feeler
> stays put, the table isn't convex for the practical purposes of refacing.  
>  
>  DT  
>  
>  Sakshama Koloski wrote:
>

>> "I've found it useful to take the .0015 measurement with my thumb close to
the glass gauge marking I'd expect (like pressing my thumb on the gauge around
60 for a tenor piece), then checking it with my thumb pressing much farther
down the gauge (near the heel of the table). If the measurement is the same,
the table should be flat. This won't detect a concave table, but if I've been
flattening it with sandpaper on plate glass, it won't be concave - the only
problem would be if it were convex (i.e., had a higher spot somewhere in the
middle), and this finds it pretty well."  
>  
>  
>  What is your tolerance for this Dan?  
>  I wanted to ask the forum this question long time ago.  
>  Greetings,  
>  Sakshama  
>  
>  
>
>>

>> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 5:14 AM, Dan Torosian <[dtorosian@sbcglobal
.net](mailto:dtorosian@...)> wrote:  
>
>>

>>> I've found it useful to take the .0015 measurement with my thumb close to
the glass gauge marking I'd expect (like pressing my thumb on the gauge around
60 for a tenor piece), then checking it with my thumb pressing much farther
down the gauge (near the heel of the table). If the measurement is the same,
the table should be flat. This won't detect a concave table, but if I've been
flattening it with sandpaper on plate glass, it won't be concave - the only
problem would be if it were convex (i.e., had a higher spot somewhere in the
middle), and this finds it pretty well.  
>  
>  Dan T
>>>

>>>  
>  
>  John wrote:
>>>

>>>> Great stuff guys. thanks John  
>  
>  \\--- In [MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups.
> com](mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com), "Voss, Matthew"
> [](mailto:matthew.voss@...) wrote:  
>  >  
>  > I'll just add that to test flatness I use a precision steel straight edge
> rule from Starrett<[http://www.starrett .com/index.
> cfm](http://www.starrett.com/index.cfm)>.  
>  >  
>  > Matt  
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  
>  > Do not include private or personal financial information in your email
> correspondence unless you are utilizing the Sterling secure email server. To
> send a secure email, go to [www.SterlingNationa
> lBank.com](http://www.sterlingnationalbank.com/).<[http://www.sterling
> nationalbank. com/](http://www.sterlingnationalbank.com/)>  
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  
>  > From: [MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups.
> com](mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com) [mailto:[MouthpieceWork@
> yahoogroups. com](mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com)] On Behalf Of
> Keith Bradbury  
>  > Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 1:12 PM  
>  > To: [MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups.
> com](mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com)  
>  > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] basics of getting a flat table  
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  
>  > I find if the table is concave, you can lap in many directions and still
> make progress. But if it is convex, the leading edge of you lap direction
> tends to dig into the sandpaper and you can easily make the table even more
> convex. So you need to be aware of this and compensate by how you grip the
> mouthpiece and apply some force to it as you draw it. I have a slide show
> presentation on my site that illustrates what I'm talking about.  
>  >  
>  > As for one side rail being higher than the other, you can tilt the table
> to correct some of this. If the tip rail and baffle look real nice, it may
> be worth doing this. But if you need to do a lot of tip shaping as part of
> the job, it is better to just get a flat table then work all the rails as
> needed IMO.  
>  >  
>  >  
>  > Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC  
>  > 2925 Crane St., Vineland, NJ 08361  
>  > Paypal to sabradbury79@ ...[](mailto:sabradbury79@...)  
>  > Check out: [http://www.MojoMout hpieceWork.
> com](http://www.mojomouthpiecework.com/)<[http://www.mojomout hpiecework.
> com/](http://www.mojomouthpiecework.com/)>  
>  > ...and: .com/mojomouthpiecework  
>  >  
>  >  
>  > ____________ _________ _________ __  
>  > From: John [](mailto:john_w_price33@...)  
>  > To: [MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups.
> com](mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com)  
>  > Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 11:57:42 AM  
>  > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] basics of getting a flat table  
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  
>  > In my attempts at getting a flat table I draw the mouthpiece straight
> back with my index finger on the top...centered. It sometimes happens that
> I'm noticing a slightly cockeyed facing emerging. Would you recommend a
> slight weight shift to even this out a bit. I realize these uneven numbers
> can be corrected later when putting the facing on but just wondered if I
> could compromise a bit here to make for less adjustment later. My adjustment
> would be placing the index finger slightly to one side of the mouthpiece.
> Finally, is there a good test to evaluate the flatness of the table?  
>  >  
>  
>
>>

>>  
>  
>  
>  \\--  
>  Sakshama  
>
>
>  
>

I used to occassionally wet the table.  But I now think this can mask a small convexity.




________________________________
From: gregwier <gregwier@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, June 23, 2010 10:12:53 AM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: basics of getting a flat table

  
Another test of a "true" table is the method of moderately wetting the table and adhering the mouthpiece to the glass with the mouthpiece under the glass. If it stays put and does not rotate or fall off for a good length of time you have a level table. 

Be ready to catch the mouthpiece or have padding beneath to prevent damages from the forces of gravity. 





      

An easy way to quickly check rails is to wet piece, put under glass  and "roll" toward tip you can see one rail move more quickly than the other if they are not the same. you can also see concave areas on table immediately.
On Jun 23, 2010, at 4:12 AM, gregwier wrote:

> Another test of a "true" table is the method of moderately wetting the table and adhering the mouthpiece to the glass with the mouthpiece under the glass. If it stays put and does not rotate or fall off for a good length of time you have a level table. 
> 
> Be ready to catch the mouthpiece or have padding beneath to prevent damages from the forces of gravity. 
> 
> 

By my experience the .0015 never stays put. If you apply pressure on top of
the table versus the bottom no matter how flat the table is you will get at
least 1mm different reading due to the lever principles. That for the metal
pieces. On some softer HR you may get same reading. So that 1mm is my
margin.
Greetings

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 2:18 PM, Dan Torosian <dtorosian@sbcglobal.net>wrote:

>
>
> I don't know what the tolerances are - I just know that if the .0015 feeler
> stays put, the table isn't convex for the practical purposes of refacing.
>
> DT
>
> Sakshama Koloski wrote:
>
>
>
> "I've found it useful to take the .0015 measurement with my thumb close to
> the glass gauge marking I'd expect (like pressing my thumb on the gauge
> around 60 for a tenor piece), then checking it with my thumb pressing much
> farther down the gauge (near the heel of the table).  If the measurement is
> the same, the table should be flat.  This won't detect a concave table, but
> if I've been flattening it with sandpaper on plate glass, it won't be
> concave - the only problem would be if it were convex (i.e., had a higher
> spot somewhere in the middle), and this finds it pretty well."
>
>
> What is your tolerance for this Dan?
> I wanted to ask the forum this question long time ago.
> Greetings,
> Sakshama
>
>
>  On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 5:14 AM, Dan Torosian <dtorosian@...>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I've found it useful to take the .0015 measurement with my thumb close to
>> the glass gauge marking I'd expect (like pressing my thumb on the gauge
>> around 60 for a tenor piece), then checking it with my thumb pressing much
>> farther down the gauge (near the heel of the table).  If the measurement is
>> the same, the table should be flat.  This won't detect a concave table, but
>> if I've been flattening it with sandpaper on plate glass, it won't be
>> concave - the only problem would be if it were convex (i.e., had a higher
>> spot somewhere in the middle), and this finds it pretty well.
>>
>> Dan T
>>
>>
>> John wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Great stuff guys. thanks John
>>
>> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com <MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>,
>> "Voss, Matthew" <matthew.voss@...> <matthew.voss@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > I'll just add that to test flatness I use a precision steel straight
>> edge rule from Starrett<http://www.starrett.com/index.cfm>.
>> >
>> > Matt
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Do not include private or personal financial information in your email
>> correspondence unless you are utilizing the Sterling secure email server. To
>> send a secure email, go to www.SterlingNationalBank.com.<
>> http://www.sterlingnationalbank.com/>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com <MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>[mailto:
>> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com <MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>] On
>> Behalf Of Keith Bradbury
>> > Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 1:12 PM
>> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com <MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] basics of getting a flat table
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I find if the table is concave, you can lap in many directions and still
>> make progress. But if it is convex, the leading edge of you lap direction
>> tends to dig into the sandpaper and you can easily make the table even more
>> convex. So you need to be aware of this and compensate by how you grip the
>> mouthpiece and apply some force to it as you draw it. I have a slide show
>> presentation on my site that illustrates what I'm talking about.
>> >
>> > As for one side rail being higher than the other, you can tilt the table
>> to correct some of this. If the tip rail and baffle look real nice, it may
>> be worth doing this. But if you need to do a lot of tip shaping as part of
>> the job, it is better to just get a flat table then work all the rails as
>> needed IMO.
>> >
>> >
>> > Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
>> > 2925 Crane St., Vineland, NJ 08361
>> > Paypal to sabradbury79@...<mailto:sabradbury79@...> <sabradbury79@...>
>> > Check out: http://www.MojoMouthpieceWork.com<
>> http://www.mojomouthpiecework.com/>
>> > ...and: http://www.facebook.com/mojomouthpiecework
>> >
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: John <john_w_price33@...> <john_w_price33@...>
>> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com <MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
>> > Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 11:57:42 AM
>> > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] basics of getting a flat table
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > In my attempts at getting a flat table I draw the mouthpiece straight
>> back with my index finger on the top...centered. It sometimes happens that
>> I'm noticing a slightly cockeyed facing emerging. Would you recommend a
>> slight weight shift to even this out a bit. I realize these uneven numbers
>> can be corrected later when putting the facing on but just wondered if I
>> could compromise a bit here to make for less adjustment later. My adjustment
>> would be placing the index finger slightly to one side of the mouthpiece.
>> Finally, is there a good test to evaluate the flatness of the table?
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Sakshama
>
>  
>



-- 
Sakshama

Aside from the feel test which has been mentioned, look at it.  I have a granite worktop sample (maybe 4"X6") that I put the mouthpiece on, and hold it up to the light.  Anything but flat and light peeks through the cracks.



--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "John" <john_w_price33@...> wrote:
>
> In my attempts at getting a flat table I draw the mouthpiece straight back with my index finger on the top...centered.  It sometimes happens that I'm noticing a slightly cockeyed facing emerging.  Would you recommend a slight weight shift to even this out a bit. I realize these uneven numbers can be corrected later when putting the facing on but just wondered if I could compromise a bit here to make for less adjustment later. My adjustment would be placing the index finger slightly to one side of the mouthpiece.  Finally, is there a good test to evaluate the flatness of the table?
>

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Morgan" <frymorgan@...> wrote:
>
> Aside from the feel test which has been mentioned, look at it.  I have a granite worktop sample (maybe 4"X6") that I put the mouthpiece on, and hold it up to the light.  Anything but flat and light peeks through the cracks.
>xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 

...There should be no rocking of the gauge on a FLAT table.

I am having success holding my 1ft(30cm) steel ruler up to the light, lengthwise and across the table surface. This shows humps or hollows. 

Sliding the ruler edge, gently across the table a few times lengthwise, also shows up all the high spots on the surface of the table, even on brass.

I then hold the MPC in one hand while sanding these out. Continuously repeating these visual tests with the ruler, until it is ready for a final sanding on the glass plate.

I find this gives more control than using flat plate sanding alone and reduces the tendency to dig-in on the leading edge of the forward stroke, if you already have a hump. 

This gets humps down faster without closing the tip unnecessarily, thereby reducing the amount of relaying required IMO.
>Eddie 
>

Thanks Eddie, Yours is the first answer that actually discusses how you actually get the table flat. Everyone else just showed how to measure for a flat table.   I just dealt with a very recalcitrant soprano table that would not flatten until I used  more or less your method.  Perhaps some of the other  members will offer their own  methods now.  I once knew a machinist who could put a flat surface on anything yet was at a loss to explain what he did to achieve it.    Peter 


      

This is the process we use to flatten the table:
(1) we swipe the mouthpiece from side to side on a diamond faced  
lapping plate and observe the visible high spots
(2) we swipe the mouthpiece back and forth on a diamond faced lapping  
plate and observe the visible high spots
(3) we swipe the mouthpiece diagonally on a diamond faced lapping  
plate, then reverse the direction, and observe the visible high spots
(4) we then lap the table on a granite block faced with 400 grit emery  
paper, using all the different directions listed above
(5) same process as #4, just with 600 grit paper
(6) same process as #4m just with 1200 grit paper

Trust me, by now it's flat!

On Jun 25, 2010, at 2:39 PM, Peter Deley wrote:

>
> Thanks Eddie,
>  Yours is the first answer that actually discusses how you actually  
> get the table flat. Everyone else just showed how to measure for a  
> flat table.
>    I just dealt with a very recalcitrant soprano table that would  
> not flatten until I used  more or less your method.
>   Perhaps some of the other  members will offer their own  methods  
> now.
>   I once knew a machinist who could put a flat surface on anything  
> yet was at a loss to explain what he did to achieve it.    Peter
>
>
> 

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Peter Deley <pfdeley@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Eddie, Yours is the first answer that actually discusses how you actually get the table flat. Everyone else just showed how to measure for a flat table.   I just dealt with a very recalcitrant soprano table that would not flatten until I used  more or less your method.  Perhaps some of the other  members will offer their own  methods now.  I once knew a machinist who could put a flat surface on anything yet was at a loss to explain what he did to achieve it.    Peter 
>
---Glad to be of help Peter. I developed the technique after trying unsuccessfully to flatten a Weltklang table which had a hard lump imbedded in it. This refused to sand down at the same rate as the surrounding material.

It is a hobby and a learning curve for me.....pun intended. Eddie.

Steve,
With your method, it seems that there is a high possibility of creating a high spot in the center of the table if you are not holding the mouthpiece firm enough.  Is there a way to avoid this?
The only why I have been able to make a good flat (which I don't do a lot, I like a slight hollow) is to sand lengthwise, holding the MPC firmly, but with very little pressure downward.  It takes a bit of time, but it does come out flat eventually.
It is very very hard to avoid the leading edge becoming more sanded than the rest of the table.
-SG


--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...> wrote:
>
> This is the process we use to flatten the table:
> (1) we swipe the mouthpiece from side to side on a diamond faced  
> lapping plate and observe the visible high spots
> (2) we swipe the mouthpiece back and forth on a diamond faced lapping  
> plate and observe the visible high spots
> (3) we swipe the mouthpiece diagonally on a diamond faced lapping  
> plate, then reverse the direction, and observe the visible high spots
> (4) we then lap the table on a granite block faced with 400 grit emery  
> paper, using all the different directions listed above
> (5) same process as #4, just with 600 grit paper
> (6) same process as #4m just with 1200 grit paper
> 
> Trust me, by now it's flat!

I think that I'm safe to say that if you cannot figure out how to hold  
the mouthpiece, you should most likely not be attempting any refacing  
or leveling.....




On Jun 27, 2010, at 6:02 AM, skygardener1 wrote:

> Steve,
> With your method, it seems that there is a high possibility of  
> creating a high spot in the center of the table if you are not  
> holding the mouthpiece firm enough. Is there a way to avoid this?
> The only why I have been able to make a good flat (which I don't do  
> a lot, I like a slight hollow) is to sand lengthwise, holding the  
> MPC firmly, but with very little pressure downward. It takes a bit  
> of time, but it does come out flat eventually.
> It is very very hard to avoid the leading edge becoming more sanded  
> than the rest of the table.
> -SG
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, STEVE GOODSON  
> <saxgourmet@...> wrote:
> >
> > This is the process we use to flatten the table:
> > (1) we swipe the mouthpiece from side to side on a diamond faced
> > lapping plate and observe the visible high spots
> > (2) we swipe the mouthpiece back and forth on a diamond faced  
> lapping
> > plate and observe the visible high spots
> > (3) we swipe the mouthpiece diagonally on a diamond faced lapping
> > plate, then reverse the direction, and observe the visible high  
> spots
> > (4) we then lap the table on a granite block faced with 400 grit  
> emery
> > paper, using all the different directions listed above
> > (5) same process as #4, just with 600 grit paper
> > (6) same process as #4m just with 1200 grit paper
> >
> > Trust me, by now it's flat!
>
>
> 

No need to go THERE so fast!  Sky's comments were obviously seeking advice.  Not harrangue.  Is there a more helpful comment you could have made?  Something more in keeping with the intent of this board I would hope.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: STEVE GOODSON 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 9:26 AM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: basics of getting a flat table


    
  I think that I'm safe to say that if you cannot figure out how to hold the mouthpiece, you should most likely not be attempting any refacing or leveling.....









  On Jun 27, 2010, at 6:02 AM, skygardener1 wrote:


    Steve,
    With your method, it seems that there is a high possibility of creating a high spot in the center of the table if you are not holding the mouthpiece firm enough. Is there a way to avoid this?
    The only why I have been able to make a good flat (which I don't do a lot, I like a slight hollow) is to sand lengthwise, holding the MPC firmly, but with very little pressure downward. It takes a bit of time, but it does come out flat eventually.
    It is very very hard to avoid the leading edge becoming more sanded than the rest of the table.
    -SG

    --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...> wrote:
    >
    > This is the process we use to flatten the table:
    > (1) we swipe the mouthpiece from side to side on a diamond faced 
    > lapping plate and observe the visible high spots
    > (2) we swipe the mouthpiece back and forth on a diamond faced lapping 
    > plate and observe the visible high spots
    > (3) we swipe the mouthpiece diagonally on a diamond faced lapping 
    > plate, then reverse the direction, and observe the visible high spots
    > (4) we then lap the table on a granite block faced with 400 grit emery 
    > paper, using all the different directions listed above
    > (5) same process as #4, just with 600 grit paper
    > (6) same process as #4m just with 1200 grit paper
    > 
    > Trust me, by now it's flat!







  

His comment was that if you don't hold the mouthpiece correctly, you  
won't get proper results. My comment is simply in agreement, nothing  
more. We sell a DVD at www.nationofmusic.com which shows and explains  
the procedure in detail.

I don't see how my comment was a harangue or anything but helpful, or  
was in any way contrary to the intent of this board. That was  
certainly not my intent, and if my comment was taken that way, I  
apologize.



On Jun 27, 2010, at 9:59 AM, Robert W. Smith wrote:

>
> No need to go THERE so fast!  Sky's comments were obviously seeking  
> advice.  Not harrangue.  Is there a more helpful comment you could  
> have made?  Something more in keeping with the intent of this board  
> I would hope.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: STEVE GOODSON
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 9:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: basics of getting a flat table
>
>
> I think that I'm safe to say that if you cannot figure out how to  
> hold the mouthpiece, you should most likely not be attempting any  
> refacing or leveling.....
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 27, 2010, at 6:02 AM, skygardener1 wrote:
>
>> Steve,
>> With your method, it seems that there is a high possibility of  
>> creating a high spot in the center of the table if you are not  
>> holding the mouthpiece firm enough. Is there a way to avoid this?
>> The only why I have been able to make a good flat (which I don't do  
>> a lot, I like a slight hollow) is to sand lengthwise, holding the  
>> MPC firmly, but with very little pressure downward. It takes a bit  
>> of time, but it does come out flat eventually.
>> It is very very hard to avoid the leading edge becoming more sanded  
>> than the rest of the table.
>> -SG
>>
>> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, STEVE GOODSON  
>> <saxgourmet@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > This is the process we use to flatten the table:
>> > (1) we swipe the mouthpiece from side to side on a diamond faced
>> > lapping plate and observe the visible high spots
>> > (2) we swipe the mouthpiece back and forth on a diamond faced  
>> lapping
>> > plate and observe the visible high spots
>> > (3) we swipe the mouthpiece diagonally on a diamond faced lapping
>> > plate, then reverse the direction, and observe the visible high  
>> spots
>> > (4) we then lap the table on a granite block faced with 400 grit  
>> emery
>> > paper, using all the different directions listed above
>> > (5) same process as #4, just with 600 grit paper
>> > (6) same process as #4m just with 1200 grit paper
>> >
>> > Trust me, by now it's flat!
>>
>>
>
>
>
> 

Okay, I'll buy that.  And my apologies as well for mis-interpreting your comments.

Robert


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: STEVE GOODSON 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 10:35 AM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: basics of getting a flat table


    
  His comment was that if you don't hold the mouthpiece correctly, you won't get proper results. My comment is simply in agreement, nothing more. We sell a DVD at www.nationofmusic.com which shows and explains the procedure in detail. 



  I don't see how my comment was a harangue or anything but helpful, or was in any way contrary to the intent of this board. That was certainly not my intent, and if my comment was taken that way, I apologize.






  On Jun 27, 2010, at 9:59 AM, Robert W. Smith wrote:




    No need to go THERE so fast!  Sky's comments were obviously seeking advice.  Not harrangue.  Is there a more helpful comment you could have made?  Something more in keeping with the intent of this board I would hope.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: STEVE GOODSON
      To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 9:26 AM
      Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: basics of getting a flat table


       
      I think that I'm safe to say that if you cannot figure out how to hold the mouthpiece, you should most likely not be attempting any refacing or leveling.....









      On Jun 27, 2010, at 6:02 AM, skygardener1 wrote:


        Steve,
        With your method, it seems that there is a high possibility of creating a high spot in the center of the table if you are not holding the mouthpiece firm enough. Is there a way to avoid this?
        The only why I have been able to make a good flat (which I don't do a lot, I like a slight hollow) is to sand lengthwise, holding the MPC firmly, but with very little pressure downward. It takes a bit of time, but it does come out flat eventually.
        It is very very hard to avoid the leading edge becoming more sanded than the rest of the table.
        -SG

        --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...> wrote:
        >
        > This is the process we use to flatten the table:
        > (1) we swipe the mouthpiece from side to side on a diamond faced 
        > lapping plate and observe the visible high spots
        > (2) we swipe the mouthpiece back and forth on a diamond faced lapping 
        > plate and observe the visible high spots
        > (3) we swipe the mouthpiece diagonally on a diamond faced lapping 
        > plate, then reverse the direction, and observe the visible high spots
        > (4) we then lap the table on a granite block faced with 400 grit emery 
        > paper, using all the different directions listed above
        > (5) same process as #4, just with 600 grit paper
        > (6) same process as #4m just with 1200 grit paper
        > 
        > Trust me, by now it's flat!














  

I have found, especially with metal mouthpieces, but can be used on anything, that milling a flat surface is really easy, of course assuming that the mouthpiece is set in the bit perfectly flat which can be done with a round bubble gauge. Of course the method of using various grits of abrasives with a careful had on a flat surface works too. 

One always has to hope the manufacturer did not tweak the flatness of the mouthpiece when being manufactured as one can then be flattening until there is no mouthpiece left.

The method I use to check the flatness of the table is to spit on my measuring glass and, 1. seeing that it has suction when the mouthpiece is turned upside down, and 2. sliding the glass back and forth over the facing. High and low spots become very apparent.


Mike Vaccaro
www.MandMmouthpieces.com
www.VaccaroandStevensWoodwinds.Com



 

The reason we need to hand flatten tables is usually because whatever milling operation is used, it is not flat enough.  Some CNC work is very good, but a lot falls short.




________________________________
From: Mike Vaccaro <mike@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, June 27, 2010 2:56:31 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: basics of getting a flat table

  
I have found, especially with metal mouthpieces, but can be used on anything, that milling a flat surface is really easy, of course assuming that the mouthpiece is set in the bit perfectly flat which can be done with a round bubble gauge. Of course the method of using various grits of abrasives with a careful had on a flat surface works too. 
 
One always has to hope the manufacturer did not tweak the flatness of the mouthpiece when being manufactured as one can then be flattening until there is no mouthpiece left.
 
The method I use to check the flatness of the table is to spit on my measuring glass and, 1. seeing that it has suction when the mouthpiece is turned upside down, and 2. sliding the glass back and forth over the facing. High and low spots become very apparent.
 
 
Mike Vaccaro
www.MandMmouthpiece s.com
www.VaccaroandSteve nsWoodwinds. Com



 



      

It is true that  when we get past those nice milling marks on certain brands of mouthpiece, underneath them there is often a very unlevel table with only the ridges giving it a semblance of flatness.
   When these ridges wear down in time with the continuous beating of the reed against them  we are often left with a very uneven table. This applies even more to the side rails, leaving a rather inaccurate curve. Of course the softer the mouthpiece material the worse this  gets.

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
>
> The reason we need to hand flatten tables is usually because whatever milling operation is used, it is not flat enough.  Some CNC work is very good, but a lot falls short.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Mike Vaccaro <mike@...>
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, June 27, 2010 2:56:31 PM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: basics of getting a flat table
> 
>   
> I have found, especially with metal mouthpieces, but can be used on anything, that milling a flat surface is really easy, of course assuming that the mouthpiece is set in the bit perfectly flat which can be done with a round bubble gauge. Of course the method of using various grits of abrasives with a careful had on a flat surface works too. 
>  
> One always has to hope the manufacturer did not tweak the flatness of the mouthpiece when being manufactured as one can then be flattening until there is no mouthpiece left.
>  
> The method I use to check the flatness of the table is to spit on my measuring glass and, 1. seeing that it has suction when the mouthpiece is turned upside down, and 2. sliding the glass back and forth over the facing. High and low spots become very apparent.
>  
>  
> Mike Vaccaro
> www.MandMmouthpiece s.com
> www.VaccaroandSteve nsWoodwinds. Com
> 
> 
> 
>  
>

As mentioned in some other posts today, this works well with metal.
I pretty much do clarinet and HR sax.  Would you use the same technique for HR and metal?  Or do you do things differently in some way?
-SG


--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...> wrote:
>
> I think that I'm safe to say that if you cannot figure out how to hold  
> the mouthpiece, you should most likely not be attempting any refacing  
> or leveling.....
> 

We do not vary the technique between metal, plastic, wood, or hard  
rubber. For stainless steel, we use an additional step , which is a  
lapping table with a coarser diamond grit. I never see crystal  
mouthpieces and am not sure what to vary in our technique, if anything.


On Jun 28, 2010, at 8:52 AM, skygardener1 wrote:

> As mentioned in some other posts today, this works well with metal.
> I pretty much do clarinet and HR sax. Would you use the same  
> technique for HR and metal? Or do you do things differently in some  
> way?
> -SG
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, STEVE GOODSON  
> <saxgourmet@...> wrote:
> >
> > I think that I'm safe to say that if you cannot figure out how to  
> hold
> > the mouthpiece, you should most likely not be attempting any  
> refacing
> > or leveling.....
> >
>
>
> 

Keith, 

I agree about the hand method and do flatten all rubber and composite mouthpieces by hand. I have however had very good outcomes with the mill on metal mouthpieces and again I say that the trick is to get the mouthpiece perfectly flat in the mill holding device which does take some expertise and patience. Especially the harder material metal mouthpieces it just takes to long and the variables of removing the material by hand are tedious at best and subject to some removal of material from one side or the other or back or front by an imperfect or fatigued hand. The mill is actually scientifically flat if the mouthpiece is put on flat to the holding device. 


Mike Vaccaro
www.MikeVaccaro.Com
www.VictorVanacore.Com



 

I'd be very interested to know about using a mill.....brand and  
model......I've been considering buying one for some time.....any  
input or advice would be appreciated



On Jun 28, 2010, at 12:56 PM, Mike Vaccaro wrote:

>
> Keith,
>
> I agree about the hand method and do flatten all rubber and  
> composite mouthpieces by hand. I have however had very good outcomes  
> with the mill on metal mouthpieces and again I say that the trick is  
> to get the mouthpiece perfectly flat in the mill holding device  
> which does take some expertise and patience. Especially the harder  
> material metal mouthpieces it just takes to long and the variables  
> of removing the material by hand are tedious at best and subject to  
> some removal of material from one side or the other or back or front  
> by an imperfect or fatigued hand. The mill is actually  
> scientifically flat if the mouthpiece is put on flat to the holding  
> device.
>
>
> Mike Vaccaro
> www.MikeVaccaro.Com
> www.VictorVanacore.Com
>
>
>
>
> 

Great info guys, really nice to read through this and I've learned some new things from the info posted here on this topic. 
One thing I struggled with a whole lot at first was learning not to apply much pressure to the mouthpiece from the top when flattening a table. The very first mouthpiece I tried to work on, I (mistakenly) figured that it must take a lot of downward pressure while making passes on the sandpaper to flatten a table. I thought the harder you pressed down, the more flat the table got. However, I quickly found out that putting downward pressure on the mouthpiece while making sandpaper passes will cause you mouthpiece to develop a lot of convexity, and I eventually ruined that mouthpiece... But, after someone pointed out my mistake, it became clear that you don't need to really do anything but hold the mouthpiece steady as you make sandpaper passes on your flat working surface (i.e. glass plate or granite bench block or whatever), and then you can just let the flat working surface do its job of flattening the table. It seems like it works much better just to use very light pressure, basically just enough to hold the mouthpiece on the sandpaper steadily/evenly, as you make passes on your flat working surface with the mouthpiece table. It takes quite a bit of time sometimes to get a table flattened, especially if you're trying to remove a damaged spot such as a deep scratch or knick in the table, but it seems to only work well for me to use light pressure to sand the table. 
I have, however, started gripping the mouthpiece a little more firmly than before because if you don't hold it firmly enough, the mouthpiece can shift around in your grip as you make passes and cause problems as you're trying to flatten the table - meaning that although no more downward pressure than normal is added to the sandpaper passes, you just hold the mouthpiece a little more firmly from the sides as you make passes to keep the mouthpiece moving steadily without "catching" on the sandpaper. I usually use 400 grit to sand tables on hard rubber, and then 600 grit for the facing work on hard rubber. 
I like the idea that Morgan Fry has of using a flat surface to test for table flatness visually by holding the table on the flat surface and holding it up to the light. And as people have already mentioned before, I've definitely found that it helps to keep an eye on the bottom of the table between sandpaper passes to make sure material is being removed from where you want. I was working on a damaged trial-model Bari Associates soprano mouthpiece last night that I got for cheap a long time ago from a music store, and one of the problems was that there was this really weird circular high spot in the table near the left-back part of it. It was several millimeters wide, no idea where it came from and it didn't become apparent until a pass was made on the sandpaper to check for table flatness. Took a long time to get it out, but after a bunch of passes gradually it became smaller until it went away. Thankfully the tip didn't get closed up too much after that either, maybe only about .010". 


--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...> wrote:
>
> I'd be very interested to know about using a mill.....brand and  
> model......I've been considering buying one for some time.....any  
> input or advice would be appreciated
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 28, 2010, at 12:56 PM, Mike Vaccaro wrote:
> 
> >
> > Keith,
> >
> > I agree about the hand method and do flatten all rubber and  
> > composite mouthpieces by hand. I have however had very good outcomes  
> > with the mill on metal mouthpieces and again I say that the trick is  
> > to get the mouthpiece perfectly flat in the mill holding device  
> > which does take some expertise and patience. Especially the harder  
> > material metal mouthpieces it just takes to long and the variables  
> > of removing the material by hand are tedious at best and subject to  
> > some removal of material from one side or the other or back or front  
> > by an imperfect or fatigued hand. The mill is actually  
> > scientifically flat if the mouthpiece is put on flat to the holding  
> > device.
> >
> >
> > Mike Vaccaro
> > www.MikeVaccaro.Com
> > www.VictorVanacore.Com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

In the Erik Brand repair manual, page 127 shows a drawing of the grip
for getting a flat table under topic Lapping the Table.

Thanks for posting the steps AND materials. The manual talks about 4/0
and 8/0 pouncing paper. Ask for that in an American hardware store and
they send you to the Disneyland to see Tigger and Pooh.

Also, thanks for the clarinet ideas in the other posts lately!

E ve r e t t  F i d l e r


--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...>
wrote:
>
> This is the process we use to flatten the table:
> (1) we swipe the mouthpiece from side to side on a diamond faced
> lapping plate and observe the visible high spots
> (2) we swipe the mouthpiece back and forth on a diamond faced lapping
> plate and observe the visible high spots
> (3) we swipe the mouthpiece diagonally on a diamond faced lapping
> plate, then reverse the direction, and observe the visible high spots
> (4) we then lap the table on a granite block faced with 400 grit emery
> paper, using all the different directions listed above
> (5) same process as #4, just with 600 grit paper
> (6) same process as #4m just with 1200 grit paper
>
> Trust me, by now it's flat!
>
> On Jun 25, 2010, at 2:39 PM, Peter Deley wrote:
>
> >