(Steve mounts the soap box)

The student saxophone market is radically different now from the  
situation that existed only a few years ago. Today, parents can  
purchase quite high quality and serviceable instruments for their  
children in the $600 - $750 price range from a wide variety of  
vendors. True, there are still some remarkably bad horns on the  
market, but there are also some very good ones at a low initial price.  
It makes no sense whatsoever, IMHO, to shell out almost $2000 for a  
Yamaha 23 for little Sally. The local music stores have been seriously  
gouging consumers for years with overpriced student horns (spoken  
strictly as a guy who offers a $15,000 saxophone for sale, and has a  
waiting list for them, thank you very much) and the worm has now  
turned, so to speak, and parents have figured out that they don't have  
to get a second mortgage in order for junior to join the band.

Band directors can no longer be "brand directors" and demand that only  
instruments from certain dealers are acceptable. Parents have this  
scam pretty much figured out now. It used to be that due to the  
patronage of the local music dealer, the school band director often  
drove a little better car, dressed better, and had a little nicer  
house than then other teachers, and hopefully this shameful system  
will come to a quick end. The band director is the ONLY teacher who  
can influence such a major monetary expenditure, and consequently, was  
often rewarded for their efforts in directing business toward a  
particular dealer.

It is extremely difficult for a parent to justify spending an amount  
equal to 15 -20% of the purchase price of a new instrument for JUST a  
mouthpiece. The laundry list of mouthpieces presented in this thread  
are just that: overpriced with regard to the needs of most students.

I have also attending countless conferences of educators, and have  
often been called upon to share my thoughts and experience. I find  
that the overwhelming majority of "brand directors" knowledge of  
mouthpieces consists solely and completely of the naive assumption  
that everyone in the section should use exactly the same mouthpiece,  
as as a result of this folly, they will all sound the same. The  
recommendations for this magic bullet of a mouthpiece are often beyond  
the financial reality of many parents, and the results obtained after  
this considerable expenditure are very likely to be disappointing.

I certainly do not advocate that every band director become an expert  
refacer. They do not have time or resources to learn the craft. I do  
believe, that there are numerous less expensive options offered in  
todays market than those enumerated in this thread. If you price kids  
out of the market, school music programs will decline.

(Steve dismounts the soap box, mops his brow, and exits)

There are two points that I would like to address:

The cost of a good student "concert band" mouthpiece.  Current internet prices of alto sax mouthpieces are listed.  Tenor prices would be comparable.

Yamaha 4C             20.99
Yamaha 5C             23.95
Hite Premier          24.65
Fobes Debut           36.95
Morgan Protone        55.00
Rousseau Classic      62.49
Rousseau New Classic  66.99
VanDoren Classic      92.99
VanDoren Optimum AL3 104.95 
Selmer Paris S90     119.99

The mouthpieces actually are quite reasonably priced until one gets to the Selmers, and everything of theirs is overpriced anyway---not just mouthpieces.

The second point is that music educators often encourage students who don't already have an instrument in the family to rent or buy from a reputable local dealer with a good repair facility for a host of valid and legitimate reasons. To suggest that they do so because they are "on the take" or get kickbacks from the stores is absurd.  Making broad accusatory statements with no factual basis to back them up serves no real purpose in this discussion other than to create controversy.

           

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...> wrote:
>
> (Steve mounts the soap box)
> 
> The student saxophone market is radically different now from the  
> situation that existed only a few years ago. Today, parents can  
> purchase quite high quality and serviceable instruments for their  
> children in the $600 - $750 price range from a wide variety of  
> vendors. True, there are still some remarkably bad horns on the  
> market, but there are also some very good ones at a low initial price.  
> It makes no sense whatsoever, IMHO, to shell out almost $2000 for a  
> Yamaha 23 for little Sally. The local music stores have been seriously  
> gouging consumers for years with overpriced student horns (spoken  
> strictly as a guy who offers a $15,000 saxophone for sale, and has a  
> waiting list for them, thank you very much) and the worm has now  
> turned, so to speak, and parents have figured out that they don't have  
> to get a second mortgage in order for junior to join the band.
> 
> Band directors can no longer be "brand directors" and demand that only  
> instruments from certain dealers are acceptable. Parents have this  
> scam pretty much figured out now. It used to be that due to the  
> patronage of the local music dealer, the school band director often  
> drove a little better car, dressed better, and had a little nicer  
> house than then other teachers, and hopefully this shameful system  
> will come to a quick end. The band director is the ONLY teacher who  
> can influence such a major monetary expenditure, and consequently, was  
> often rewarded for their efforts in directing business toward a  
> particular dealer.
> 
> It is extremely difficult for a parent to justify spending an amount  
> equal to 15 -20% of the purchase price of a new instrument for JUST a  
> mouthpiece. The laundry list of mouthpieces presented in this thread  
> are just that: overpriced with regard to the needs of most students.
> 
> I have also attending countless conferences of educators, and have  
> often been called upon to share my thoughts and experience. I find  
> that the overwhelming majority of "brand directors" knowledge of  
> mouthpieces consists solely and completely of the naive assumption  
> that everyone in the section should use exactly the same mouthpiece,  
> as as a result of this folly, they will all sound the same. The  
> recommendations for this magic bullet of a mouthpiece are often beyond  
> the financial reality of many parents, and the results obtained after  
> this considerable expenditure are very likely to be disappointing.
> 
> I certainly do not advocate that every band director become an expert  
> refacer. They do not have time or resources to learn the craft. I do  
> believe, that there are numerous less expensive options offered in  
> todays market than those enumerated in this thread. If you price kids  
> out of the market, school music programs will decline.
> 
> (Steve dismounts the soap box, mops his brow, and exits)
>

I've been dealing with crooked band directors since I entered the  
business in 1972. In every city (3 different ones) where I have owned  
a business, the practice has been widespread. Most people I know in  
the retail end of the business acknowledge paying those parasites off  
as a cost of doing business. The factual basis is not absurd, and is  
based on my personal direct experience and the reports of MANY others  
in the retail end of the music trades. Don't be naive, ask  
around.....they almost all have their hand out in one form or another.  
There is simply too much money on the table.

Music store rentals are one of the greatest scams of all time. Do the  
math, particularly on the "rent to own plans" and compare them to the  
cost of purchasing a low priced saxophone and then selling it for half  
the initial low purchase price if little Sally decides to leave the  
band. Insofar as repairs go, I am not aware of any retail repair  
facilities that turn down work, regardless of the original purchase  
place. It just doesn't happen. If you can get the horn to the shop,  
they can and will fix it. That is the business they are in.

The mouthpiece examples you cite are all fine for students, and the  
first four are reasonably priced. However, in my experience they do  
not represent a significant improvement over the standard mouthpiece  
which comes with many of the better quality (but still low priced)  
instruments available today. The quality of the mouthpieces provided  
with the instrument has improved every bit as much as the instruments  
themselves. We have recently been on a buying spree in order to  
evaluate the capabilities of different factories we have not used in  
the past with the intent of producing our new line of Bon Fils (that's  
"Good Son" in French) 	student horns of our original design. I've  
acquired fifteen different examples recently from different factories,  
and only one of them came with an unsatisfactory mouthpiece.


On May 7, 2010, at 11:32 AM, John wrote:

>
>
> There are two points that I would like to address:
>
> The cost of a good student "concert band" mouthpiece. Current  
> internet prices of alto sax mouthpieces are listed. Tenor prices  
> would be comparable.
>
> Yamaha 4C 20.99
> Yamaha 5C 23.95
> Hite Premier 24.65
> Fobes Debut 36.95
> Morgan Protone 55.00
> Rousseau Classic 62.49
> Rousseau New Classic 66.99
> VanDoren Classic 92.99
> VanDoren Optimum AL3 104.95
> Selmer Paris S90 119.99
>
> The mouthpieces actually are quite reasonably priced until one gets  
> to the Selmers, and everything of theirs is overpriced anyway---not  
> just mouthpieces.
>
> The second point is that music educators often encourage students  
> who don't already have an instrument in the family to rent or buy  
> from a reputable local dealer with a good repair facility for a host  
> of valid and legitimate reasons. To suggest that they do so because  
> they are "on the take" or get kickbacks from the stores is absurd.  
> Making broad accusatory statements with no factual basis to back  
> them up serves no real purpose in this discussion other than to  
> create controversy.
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, STEVE GOODSON  
> <saxgourmet@...> wrote:
> >
> > (Steve mounts the soap box)
> >
> > The student saxophone market is radically different now from the
> > situation that existed only a few years ago. Today, parents can
> > purchase quite high quality and serviceable instruments for their
> > children in the $600 - $750 price range from a wide variety of
> > vendors. True, there are still some remarkably bad horns on the
> > market, but there are also some very good ones at a low initial  
> price.
> > It makes no sense whatsoever, IMHO, to shell out almost $2000 for a
> > Yamaha 23 for little Sally. The local music stores have been  
> seriously
> > gouging consumers for years with overpriced student horns (spoken
> > strictly as a guy who offers a $15,000 saxophone for sale, and has a
> > waiting list for them, thank you very much) and the worm has now
> > turned, so to speak, and parents have figured out that they don't  
> have
> > to get a second mortgage in order for junior to join the band.
> >
> > Band directors can no longer be "brand directors" and demand that  
> only
> > instruments from certain dealers are acceptable. Parents have this
> > scam pretty much figured out now. It used to be that due to the
> > patronage of the local music dealer, the school band director often
> > drove a little better car, dressed better, and had a little nicer
> > house than then other teachers, and hopefully this shameful system
> > will come to a quick end. The band director is the ONLY teacher who
> > can influence such a major monetary expenditure, and consequently,  
> was
> > often rewarded for their efforts in directing business toward a
> > particular dealer.
> >
> > It is extremely difficult for a parent to justify spending an amount
> > equal to 15 -20% of the purchase price of a new instrument for  
> JUST a
> > mouthpiece. The laundry list of mouthpieces presented in this thread
> > are just that: overpriced with regard to the needs of most students.
> >
> > I have also attending countless conferences of educators, and have
> > often been called upon to share my thoughts and experience. I find
> > that the overwhelming majority of "brand directors" knowledge of
> > mouthpieces consists solely and completely of the naive assumption
> > that everyone in the section should use exactly the same mouthpiece,
> > as as a result of this folly, they will all sound the same. The
> > recommendations for this magic bullet of a mouthpiece are often  
> beyond
> > the financial reality of many parents, and the results obtained  
> after
> > this considerable expenditure are very likely to be disappointing.
> >
> > I certainly do not advocate that every band director become an  
> expert
> > refacer. They do not have time or resources to learn the craft. I do
> > believe, that there are numerous less expensive options offered in
> > todays market than those enumerated in this thread. If you price  
> kids
> > out of the market, school music programs will decline.
> >
> > (Steve dismounts the soap box, mops his brow, and exits)
> >
>
>
> 

I feel I must respond to your casual slander of music stores and band directors.  Of course, there will certainly be shady operators in ANY business.  But I have worked for two companies, both of which had high standards of integrity, and who would cease doing business with a director who tried to shake them down for kickbacks.  Rentals are indeed a large source of income for a store specializing in school music.  They also create high overhead, especially chasing down deadbeats.  My current employer SELLS instruments at deep discount, comparable to or better than the internet places, and our repairs are very reasonable, but rentals keep the doors open.  We try to stretch school and parent budgets by offering inexpensive alternatives wherever possible.  You are not a lone voice crying in the wilderness; there are more of us out here than you think.

Bill Hausmann

If you have to mic a saxophone, the rest of the band is TOO LOUD!

--- On Fri, 5/7/10, STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...> wrote:


From: STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...>
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Student mouthpiece selection
To: mouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 11:20 AM








(Steve mounts the soap box)


The student saxophone market is radically different now from the situation that existed only a few years ago. Today, parents can purchase quite high quality and serviceable instruments for their children in the $600 - $750 price range from a wide variety of vendors. True, there are still some remarkably bad horns on the market, but there are also some very good ones at a low initial price. It makes no sense whatsoever, IMHO, to shell out almost $2000 for a Yamaha 23 for little Sally. The local music stores have been seriously gouging consumers for years with overpriced student horns (spoken strictly as a guy who offers a $15,000 saxophone for sale, and has a waiting list for them, thank you very much) and the worm has now turned, so to speak, and parents have figured out that they don't have to get a second mortgage in order for junior to join the band.


Band directors can no longer be "brand directors" and demand that only instruments from certain dealers are acceptable. Parents have this scam pretty much figured out now. It used to be that due to the patronage of the local music dealer, the school band director often drove a little better car, dressed better, and had a little nicer house than then other teachers, and hopefully this shameful system will come to a quick end. The band director is the ONLY teacher who can influence such a major monetary expenditure, and consequently, was often rewarded for their efforts in directing business toward a particular dealer.


It is extremely difficult for a parent to justify spending an amount equal to 15 -20% of the purchase price of a new instrument for JUST a mouthpiece. The laundry list of mouthpieces presented in this thread are just that: overpriced with regard to the needs of most students.


I have also attending countless conferences of educators, and have often been called upon to share my thoughts and experience. I find that the overwhelming majority of "brand directors" knowledge of mouthpieces consists solely and completely of the naive assumption that everyone in the section should use exactly the same mouthpiece, as as a result of this folly, they will all sound the same. The recommendations for this magic bullet of a mouthpiece are often beyond the financial reality of many parents, and the results obtained after this considerable expenditure are very likely to be disappointing.


I certainly do not advocate that every band director become an expert refacer. They do not have time or resources to learn the craft. I do believe, that there are numerous less expensive options offered in todays market than those enumerated in this thread. If you price kids out of the market, school music programs will decline.


(Steve dismounts the soap box, mops his brow, and exits)





      

Bill:
It wasn't intended as "casual slander" and nowhere in my post did I  
say that the practice was found in 100% of vendors or band directors.  
I said clearly that it was "widespread", which in my personal  
observation and the anecdotal reports of many others, it is......




On May 7, 2010, at 10:13 PM, Bill Hausmann wrote:

>
> I feel I must respond to your casual slander of music stores and  
> band directors.  Of course, there will certainly be shady operators  
> in ANY business.  But I have worked for two companies, both of which  
> had high standards of integrity, and who would cease doing business  
> with a director who tried to shake them down for kickbacks.  Rentals  
> are indeed a large source of income for a store specializing in  
> school music.  They also create high overhead, especially chasing  
> down deadbeats.  My current employer SELLS instruments at deep  
> discount, comparable to or better than the internet places, and our  
> repairs are very reasonable, but rentals keep the doors open.  We  
> try to stretch school and parent budgets by offering inexpensive  
> alternatives wherever possible.  You are not a lone voice crying in  
> the wilderness; there are more of us out here than you think.
>
> Bill Hausmann
>
> If you have to mic a saxophone, the rest of the band is TOO LOUD!
>
> --- On Fri, 5/7/10, STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...> wrote:
>
> From: STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...>
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Student mouthpiece selection
> To: mouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 11:20 AM
>
>
>
> (Steve mounts the soap box)
>
> The student saxophone market is radically different now from the  
> situation that existed only a few years ago. Today, parents can  
> purchase quite high quality and serviceable instruments for their  
> children in the $600 - $750 price range from a wide variety of  
> vendors. True, there are still some remarkably bad horns on the  
> market, but there are also some very good ones at a low initial  
> price. It makes no sense whatsoever, IMHO, to shell out almost $2000  
> for a Yamaha 23 for little Sally. The local music stores have been  
> seriously gouging consumers for years with overpriced student horns  
> (spoken strictly as a guy who offers a $15,000 saxophone for sale,  
> and has a waiting list for them, thank you very much) and the worm  
> has now turned, so to speak, and parents have figured out that they  
> don't have to get a second mortgage in order for junior to join the  
> band.
>
> Band directors can no longer be "brand directors" and demand that  
> only instruments from certain dealers are acceptable. Parents have  
> this scam pretty much figured out now. It used to be that due to the  
> patronage of the local music dealer, the school band director often  
> drove a little better car, dressed better, and had a little nicer  
> house than then other teachers, and hopefully this shameful system  
> will come to a quick end. The band director is the ONLY teacher who  
> can influence such a major monetary expenditure, and consequently,  
> was often rewarded for their efforts in directing business toward a  
> particular dealer.
>
> It is extremely difficult for a parent to justify spending an amount  
> equal to 15 -20% of the purchase price of a new instrument for JUST  
> a mouthpiece. The laundry list of mouthpieces presented in this  
> thread are just that: overpriced with regard to the needs of most  
> students.
>
> I have also attending countless conferences of educators, and have  
> often been called upon to share my thoughts and experience. I find  
> that the overwhelming majority of "brand directors" knowledge of  
> mouthpieces consists solely and completely of the naive assumption  
> that everyone in the section should use exactly the same mouthpiece,  
> as as a result of this folly, they will all sound the same. The  
> recommendations for this magic bullet of a mouthpiece are often  
> beyond the financial reality of many parents, and the results  
> obtained after this considerable expenditure are very likely to be  
> disappointing.
>
> I certainly do not advocate that every band director become an  
> expert refacer. They do not have time or resources to learn the  
> craft. I do believe, that there are numerous less expensive options  
> offered in todays market than those enumerated in this thread. If  
> you price kids out of the market, school music programs will decline.
>
> (Steve dismounts the soap box, mops his brow, and exits)
>
>
>
>
> 

----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Hausmann <zoot51@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 7 May 2010 22:13:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Student mouthpiece selection

I feel I must respond to your casual slander of music stores and band directors.  Of course, there will certainly be shady operators in ANY business.  But I have worked for two companies, both of which had high standards of integrity, and who would cease doing business with a director who tried to shake them down for kickbacks.  Rentals are indeed a large source of income for a store specializing in school music.  They also create high overhead, especially chasing down deadbeats.  My current employer SELLS instruments at deep discount, comparable to or better than the internet places, and our repairs are very reasonable, but rentals keep the doors open.  We try to stretch school and parent budgets by offering inexpensive alternatives wherever possible.  You are not a lone voice crying in the wilderness; there are more of us out here than you think.

Bill Hausmann

If you have to mic a saxophone, the rest of the band is TOO LOUD!

--- On Fri, 5/7/10, STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...> wrote:


From: STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...>
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Student mouthpiece selection
To: mouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 11:20 AM








(Steve mounts the soap box)


The student saxophone market is radically different now from the situation that existed only a few years ago. Today, parents can purchase quite high quality and serviceable instruments for their children in the $600 - $750 price range from a wide variety of vendors. True, there are still some remarkably bad horns on the market, but there are also some very good ones at a low initial price. It makes no sense whatsoever, IMHO, to shell out almost $2000 for a Yamaha 23 for little Sally. The local music stores have been seriously gouging consumers for years with overpriced student horns (spoken strictly as a guy who offers a $15,000 saxophone for sale, and has a waiting list for them, thank you very much) and the worm has now turned, so to speak, and parents have figured out that they don't have to get a second mortgage in order for junior to join the band.


Band directors can no longer be "brand directors" and demand that only instruments from certain dealers are acceptable. Parents have this scam pretty much figured out now. It used to be that due to the patronage of the local music dealer, the school band director often drove a little better car, dressed better, and had a little nicer house than then other teachers, and hopefully this shameful system will come to a quick end. The band director is the ONLY teacher who can influence such a major monetary expenditure, and consequently, was often rewarded for their efforts in directing business toward a particular dealer.


It is extremely difficult for a parent to justify spending an amount equal to 15 -20% of the purchase price of a new instrument for JUST a mouthpiece. The laundry list of mouthpieces presented in this thread are just that: overpriced with regard to the needs of most students.


I have also attending countless conferences of educators, and have often been called upon to share my thoughts and experience. I find that the overwhelming majority of "brand directors" knowledge of mouthpieces consists solely and completely of the naive assumption that everyone in the section should use exactly the same mouthpiece, as as a result of this folly, they will all sound the same. The recommendations for this magic bullet of a mouthpiece are often beyond the financial reality of many parents, and the results obtained after this considerable expenditure are very likely to be disappointing.


I certainly do not advocate that every band director become an expert refacer. They do not have time or resources to learn the craft. I do believe, that there are numerous less expensive options offered in todays market than those enumerated in this thread. If you price kids out of the market, school music programs will decline.


(Steve dismounts the soap box, mops his brow, and exits)





      

My daughter is a human resources exec. One question that she insists on in her employment apps is "Do you think most people would steal if they knew there would be no consequences. I'll leave it up to all of you to guess whether those who answered "Yes" get the job or not (-: I 
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Hausmann <zoot51@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 7 May 2010 22:13:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Student mouthpiece selection

I feel I must respond to your casual slander of music stores and band directors.  Of course, there will certainly be shady operators in ANY business.  But I have worked for two companies, both of which had high standards of integrity, and who would cease doing business with a director who tried to shake them down for kickbacks.  Rentals are indeed a large source of income for a store specializing in school music.  They also create high overhead, especially chasing down deadbeats.  My current employer SELLS instruments at deep discount, comparable to or better than the internet places, and our repairs are very reasonable, but rentals keep the doors open.  We try to stretch school and parent budgets by offering inexpensive alternatives wherever possible.  You are not a lone voice crying in the wilderness; there are more of us out here than you think.

Bill Hausmann

If you have to mic a saxophone, the rest of the band is TOO LOUD!

--- On Fri, 5/7/10, STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...> wrote:


From: STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...>
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Student mouthpiece selection
To: mouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 11:20 AM








(Steve mounts the soap box)


The student saxophone market is radically different now from the situation that existed only a few years ago. Today, parents can purchase quite high quality and serviceable instruments for their children in the $600 - $750 price range from a wide variety of vendors. True, there are still some remarkably bad horns on the market, but there are also some very good ones at a low initial price. It makes no sense whatsoever, IMHO, to shell out almost $2000 for a Yamaha 23 for little Sally. The local music stores have been seriously gouging consumers for years with overpriced student horns (spoken strictly as a guy who offers a $15,000 saxophone for sale, and has a waiting list for them, thank you very much) and the worm has now turned, so to speak, and parents have figured out that they don't have to get a second mortgage in order for junior to join the band.


Band directors can no longer be "brand directors" and demand that only instruments from certain dealers are acceptable. Parents have this scam pretty much figured out now. It used to be that due to the patronage of the local music dealer, the school band director often drove a little better car, dressed better, and had a little nicer house than then other teachers, and hopefully this shameful system will come to a quick end. The band director is the ONLY teacher who can influence such a major monetary expenditure, and consequently, was often rewarded for their efforts in directing business toward a particular dealer.


It is extremely difficult for a parent to justify spending an amount equal to 15 -20% of the purchase price of a new instrument for JUST a mouthpiece. The laundry list of mouthpieces presented in this thread are just that: overpriced with regard to the needs of most students.


I have also attending countless conferences of educators, and have often been called upon to share my thoughts and experience. I find that the overwhelming majority of "brand directors" knowledge of mouthpieces consists solely and completely of the naive assumption that everyone in the section should use exactly the same mouthpiece, as as a result of this folly, they will all sound the same. The recommendations for this magic bullet of a mouthpiece are often beyond the financial reality of many parents, and the results obtained after this considerable expenditure are very likely to be disappointing.


I certainly do not advocate that every band director become an expert refacer. They do not have time or resources to learn the craft. I do believe, that there are numerous less expensive options offered in todays market than those enumerated in this thread. If you price kids out of the market, school music programs will decline.


(Steve dismounts the soap box, mops his brow, and exits)





      

With all respect to your daughter's HR skills, I don't see that you could
predict ANYTHING about individual behavior from this question. There are too
many possible interpretations, and even if statistically, the question might
have some predictive value, it's like saying that odds apply across the
board to every individual, which is a misunderstanding about the nature of
statistics.

The individual in question could be an honest person and not feel that other
people share the same values, based on experience. Or a dishonest person,
who will answer what they think the HR person wants to hear, regardless of
what they believe. Etc etc.

I happen to believe the most people are honest, based on experience (people
returning things like lost wallets with cash still in them, for example) but
I've also seen how things not nailed down will disappear, and anonymous
examples of petty filching every time I go shopping (opened and partially
consumed packages of this and that, for example.)

Barry

> From: peteleoni@...
> Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 16:32:05 -0500 (CDT)
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Cc: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Student mouthpiece selection
> 
> My daughter is a human resources exec. One question that she insists on in her
> employment apps is "Do you think most people would steal if they knew there
> would be no consequences. I'll leave it up to all of you to guess whether
> those who answered "Yes" get the job or not (-: I
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Hausmann <zoot51@...>
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, 7 May 2010 22:13:25 -0500 (CDT)
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Student mouthpiece selection
> 
> I feel I must respond to your casual slander of music stores and band
> directors.  Of course, there will certainly be shady operators in ANY
> business.  But I have worked for two companies, both of which had high
> standards of integrity, and who would cease doing business with a director who
> tried to shake them down for kickbacks.  Rentals are indeed a large source of
> income for a store specializing in school music.  They also create high
> overhead, especially chasing down deadbeats.  My current employer SELLS
> instruments at deep discount, comparable to or better than the internet
> places, and our repairs are very reasonable, but rentals keep the doors open. 
> We try to stretch school and parent budgets by offering inexpensive
> alternatives wherever possible.  You are not a lone voice crying in the
> wilderness; there are more of us out here than you think.
> 
> Bill Hausmann
> 
> If you have to mic a saxophone, the rest of the band is TOO LOUD!
> 
> --- On Fri, 5/7/10, STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...>
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Student mouthpiece selection
> To: mouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 11:20 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Steve mounts the soap box)
> 
> 
> The student saxophone market is radically different now from the situation
> that existed only a few years ago. Today, parents can purchase quite high
> quality and serviceable instruments for their children in the $600 - $750
> price range from a wide variety of vendors. True, there are still some
> remarkably bad horns on the market, but there are also some very good ones at
> a low initial price. It makes no sense whatsoever, IMHO, to shell out almost
> $2000 for a Yamaha 23 for little Sally. The local music stores have been
> seriously gouging consumers for years with overpriced student horns (spoken
> strictly as a guy who offers a $15,000 saxophone for sale, and has a waiting
> list for them, thank you very much) and the worm has now turned, so to speak,
> and parents have figured out that they don't have to get a second mortgage in
> order for junior to join the band.
> 
> 
> Band directors can no longer be "brand directors" and demand that only
> instruments from certain dealers are acceptable. Parents have this scam pretty
> much figured out now. It used to be that due to the patronage of the local
> music dealer, the school band director often drove a little better car,
> dressed better, and had a little nicer house than then other teachers, and
> hopefully this shameful system will come to a quick end. The band director is
> the ONLY teacher who can influence such a major monetary expenditure, and
> consequently, was often rewarded for their efforts in directing business
> toward a particular dealer.
> 
> 
> It is extremely difficult for a parent to justify spending an amount equal to
> 15 -20% of the purchase price of a new instrument for JUST a mouthpiece. The
> laundry list of mouthpieces presented in this thread are just that: overpriced
> with regard to the needs of most students.
> 
> 
> I have also attending countless conferences of educators, and have often been
> called upon to share my thoughts and experience. I find that the overwhelming
> majority of "brand directors" knowledge of mouthpieces consists solely and
> completely of the naive assumption that everyone in the section should use
> exactly the same mouthpiece, as as a result of this folly, they will all sound
> the same. The recommendations for this magic bullet of a mouthpiece are often
> beyond the financial reality of many parents, and the results obtained after
> this considerable expenditure are very likely to be disappointing.
> 
> 
> I certainly do not advocate that every band director become an expert refacer.
> They do not have time or resources to learn the craft. I do believe, that
> there are numerous less expensive options offered in todays market than those
> enumerated in this thread. If you price kids out of the market, school music
> programs will decline.
> 
> 
> (Steve dismounts the soap box, mops his brow, and exits)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
> 

Not to worry Barry (-: Of course there are exceptions. There are also oft repeated patterns of behavior, on those we can form a good overall picture.
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Levine <barrylevine@norwoodlight.com>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 9 May 2010 08:13:20 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Student mouthpiece selection

With all respect to your daughter's HR skills, I don't see that you could
predict ANYTHING about individual behavior from this question. There are too
many possible interpretations, and even if statistically, the question might
have some predictive value, it's like saying that odds apply across the
board to every individual, which is a misunderstanding about the nature of
statistics.

The individual in question could be an honest person and not feel that other
people share the same values, based on experience. Or a dishonest person,
who will answer what they think the HR person wants to hear, regardless of
what they believe. Etc etc.

I happen to believe the most people are honest, based on experience (people
returning things like lost wallets with cash still in them, for example) but
I've also seen how things not nailed down will disappear, and anonymous
examples of petty filching every time I go shopping (opened and partially
consumed packages of this and that, for example.)

Barry

> From: peteleoni@...
> Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 16:32:05 -0500 (CDT)
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Cc: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Student mouthpiece selection
> 
> My daughter is a human resources exec. One question that she insists on in her
> employment apps is "Do you think most people would steal if they knew there
> would be no consequences. I'll leave it up to all of you to guess whether
> those who answered "Yes" get the job or not (-: I
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Hausmann <zoot51@...>
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, 7 May 2010 22:13:25 -0500 (CDT)
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Student mouthpiece selection
> 
> I feel I must respond to your casual slander of music stores and band
> directors.  Of course, there will certainly be shady operators in ANY
> business.  But I have worked for two companies, both of which had high
> standards of integrity, and who would cease doing business with a director who
> tried to shake them down for kickbacks.  Rentals are indeed a large source of
> income for a store specializing in school music.  They also create high
> overhead, especially chasing down deadbeats.  My current employer SELLS
> instruments at deep discount, comparable to or better than the internet
> places, and our repairs are very reasonable, but rentals keep the doors open. 
> We try to stretch school and parent budgets by offering inexpensive
> alternatives wherever possible.  You are not a lone voice crying in the
> wilderness; there are more of us out here than you think.
> 
> Bill Hausmann
> 
> If you have to mic a saxophone, the rest of the band is TOO LOUD!
> 
> --- On Fri, 5/7/10, STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...>
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Student mouthpiece selection
> To: mouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, May 7, 2010, 11:20 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Steve mounts the soap box)
> 
> 
> The student saxophone market is radically different now from the situation
> that existed only a few years ago. Today, parents can purchase quite high
> quality and serviceable instruments for their children in the $600 - $750
> price range from a wide variety of vendors. True, there are still some
> remarkably bad horns on the market, but there are also some very good ones at
> a low initial price. It makes no sense whatsoever, IMHO, to shell out almost
> $2000 for a Yamaha 23 for little Sally. The local music stores have been
> seriously gouging consumers for years with overpriced student horns (spoken
> strictly as a guy who offers a $15,000 saxophone for sale, and has a waiting
> list for them, thank you very much) and the worm has now turned, so to speak,
> and parents have figured out that they don't have to get a second mortgage in
> order for junior to join the band.
> 
> 
> Band directors can no longer be "brand directors" and demand that only
> instruments from certain dealers are acceptable. Parents have this scam pretty
> much figured out now. It used to be that due to the patronage of the local
> music dealer, the school band director often drove a little better car,
> dressed better, and had a little nicer house than then other teachers, and
> hopefully this shameful system will come to a quick end. The band director is
> the ONLY teacher who can influence such a major monetary expenditure, and
> consequently, was often rewarded for their efforts in directing business
> toward a particular dealer.
> 
> 
> It is extremely difficult for a parent to justify spending an amount equal to
> 15 -20% of the purchase price of a new instrument for JUST a mouthpiece. The
> laundry list of mouthpieces presented in this thread are just that: overpriced
> with regard to the needs of most students.
> 
> 
> I have also attending countless conferences of educators, and have often been
> called upon to share my thoughts and experience. I find that the overwhelming
> majority of "brand directors" knowledge of mouthpieces consists solely and
> completely of the naive assumption that everyone in the section should use
> exactly the same mouthpiece, as as a result of this folly, they will all sound
> the same. The recommendations for this magic bullet of a mouthpiece are often
> beyond the financial reality of many parents, and the results obtained after
> this considerable expenditure are very likely to be disappointing.
> 
> 
> I certainly do not advocate that every band director become an expert refacer.
> They do not have time or resources to learn the craft. I do believe, that
> there are numerous less expensive options offered in todays market than those
> enumerated in this thread. If you price kids out of the market, school music
> programs will decline.
> 
> 
> (Steve dismounts the soap box, mops his brow, and exits)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     
> 

I don't recall reading about this on the mouthpiece group, but maybe I
missed it.

Thinking about how to detect small flat spots or other facing curve
discontinuities, I noticed that if I hold the mouthpiece against a flat
glass plate and rock it back and forth across the facing arc, such
discontinuities can be felt as a slight bumpy feeling.

Has this been mentioned previously?

Barry

I do not think it has been mentioned here.  I have heard that some refacers who only have the classic feeler set up to .050" use "feel" on a flat surface to help with free-handing the rest of the facing curve for large tip openings.  I think that if you can feel a flat section or "kink", you can usually see a reflection off of the irregularities when you look at the rails.  The reflection may be able to detect even more than by "rocking".  But an extended feeler set is the best way to ensure the left and right rails are even near the tip.




________________________________
From: Barry Levine <barrylevine@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, May 9, 2010 6:52:20 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Rocking test

  
I don't recall reading about this on the mouthpiece group, but maybe I
missed it.

Thinking about how to detect small flat spots or other facing curve
discontinuities, I noticed that if I hold the mouthpiece against a flat
glass plate and rock it back and forth across the facing arc, such
discontinuities can be felt as a slight bumpy feeling.

Has this been mentioned previously?

Barry





      

I'll have to look more carefully at the light coming off the rails and see
if I can see any of these irregularities.

I think the rocking method may be more obviously felt with metal pieces,
applying some pressure, as there's some give in hard rubber or plastic.

It made a difference on a metal Link that I've had problems getting to play
well - found a couple of bumps; not near the tip but more mid-facing.


on 5/9/10 10:23 PM, Keith Bradbury at kwbradbury@... wrote:

 
I do not think it has been mentioned here.  I have heard that some refacers
who only have the classic feeler set up to .050" use "feel" on a flat
surface to help with free-handing the rest of the facing curve for large tip
openings.  I think that if you can feel a flat section or "kink", you can
usually see a reflection off of the irregularities when you look at the
rails.  The reflection may be able to detect even more than by "rocking".
But an extended feeler set is the best way to ensure the left and right
rails are even near the tip.




From: Barry Levine <barrylevine@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, May 9, 2010 6:52:20 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Rocking test

 
I don't recall reading about this on the mouthpiece group, but maybe I
missed it.

Thinking about how to detect small flat spots or other facing curve
discontinuities, I noticed that if I hold the mouthpiece against a flat
glass plate and rock it back and forth across the facing arc, such
discontinuities can be felt as a slight bumpy feeling.

Has this been mentioned previously?

Barry

I've often wondered (but have never tried) if making some templates  
might be helpful in getting exactly the curve desired....has anyone  
tried anything like this?



On May 10, 2010, at 9:36 AM, Barry Levine wrote:

> I'll have to look more carefully at the light coming off the rails  
> and see if I can see any of these irregularities.
>
> I think the rocking method may be more obviously felt with metal  
> pieces, applying some pressure, as there's some give in hard rubber  
> or plastic.
>
> It made a difference on a metal Link that I've had problems getting  
> to play well - found a couple of bumps; not near the tip but more  
> mid-facing.
>
>
> on 5/9/10 10:23 PM, Keith Bradbury at kwbradbury@... wrote:
>
>>
>> I do not think it has been mentioned here.  I have heard that some  
>> refacers who only have the classic feeler set up to .050" use  
>> "feel" on a flat surface to help with free-handing the rest of the  
>> facing curve for large tip openings.  I think that if you can feel  
>> a flat section or "kink", you can usually see a reflection off of  
>> the irregularities when you look at the rails.  The reflection may  
>> be able to detect even more than by "rocking".  But an extended  
>> feeler set is the best way to ensure the left and right rails are  
>> even near the tip.
>>
>>
>> From: Barry Levine <barrylevine@...>
>> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Sun, May 9, 2010 6:52:20 PM
>> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Rocking test
>>
>>
>> I don't recall reading about this on the mouthpiece group, but  
>> maybe I
>> missed it.
>>
>> Thinking about how to detect small flat spots or other facing curve
>> discontinuities, I noticed that if I hold the mouthpiece against a  
>> flat
>> glass plate and rock it back and forth across the facing arc, such
>> discontinuities can be felt as a slight bumpy feeling.
>>
>> Has this been mentioned previously?
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> 

Machine shops have "radius gages" that can be used for radial facing curves.  You need something in the 5-6" range.  But they can only rough in a facing to .0020" or so.  When Laurie Waldron (LAW) approached me to take his facing work to the next level, he was using radial gages.  I introduced him to the glass gage, feelers and spreadsheets.   After that, there was no looking back.  His local pros started playing his mouthpieces.  The glass gage and feeler system can get a facing to within .0002"-.0010" of targets if you are meticulous. 




________________________________
From: STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, May 10, 2010 10:46:49 AM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Rocking test

  
I've often wondered (but have never tried) if making some templates might be helpful in getting exactly the curve desired....has anyone tried anything like this? 



      

Keith:
Do you think this might be a time saver for "roughing in"? I am  
unfamiliar with this product.



On May 10, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Keith Bradbury wrote:

>
> Machine shops have "radius gages" that can be used for radial facing  
> curves.  You need something in the 5-6" range.  But they can only  
> rough in a facing to .0020" or so.  When Laurie Waldron (LAW)  
> approached me to take his facing work to the next level, he was  
> using radial gages.  I introduced him to the glass gage, feelers and  
> spreadsheets.   After that, there was no looking back.  His local  
> pros started playing his mouthpieces.  The glass gage and feeler  
> system can get a facing to within .0002"-.0010" of targets if you  
> are meticulous.
>
>
> From: STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...>
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, May 10, 2010 10:46:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Rocking test
>
>
> I've often wondered (but have never tried) if making some templates  
> might be helpful in getting exactly the curve desired....has anyone  
> tried anything like this?
>
>
>
>
> 

I have not used them.  I think a CNC facing would be good enough to rough in the facing.  Some CNC work competes very well with (rushed) hand finishing.




________________________________
From: STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, May 10, 2010 12:28:32 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Templates

  
Keith: 
Do you think this might be a time saver for "roughing in"? I am unfamiliar with this product.




On May 10, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Keith Bradbury wrote:


>
>Machine shops have "radius gages" that can be used for radial facing curves.  You need something in the 5-6" range.  But they can only rough in a facing to .0020" or so.  When Laurie Waldron (LAW) approached me to take his facing work to the next level, he was using radial gages.  I introduced him to the glass gage, feelers and spreadsheets.   After that, there was no looking back.  His local pros started playing his mouthpieces.  The glass gage and feeler system can get a facing to within .0002"-.0010" of targets if you are meticulous. 
>
>


      

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...> wrote:
>
> I've often wondered (but have never tried) if making some templates  
> might be helpful in getting exactly the curve desired....has anyone  
> tried anything like this?


Runyon uses their "old facing machine" to cut templates for the "new facing machine".

The "old machine" is from the 1940's, and is similar to a milling machine.  The cutting head moves along a track, like a milling machine, until it hits an adjustable stop.  At that point the assembly pivots.  It has an adjustable radius.  Therefore it can be adjusted to produce an infinite number of facing lengths and tip openings.

Using this machine, they face their professional models, the Customs, Quantums, various metal mouthpieces.  This process takes a little over a minute.

They also cut templates.

The templates are placed in the "new machine" that is used to face the student models.  The "new machine" was made back in the late 50's or early 60's, I think, and works like a key copier.  The cutting head follows the template and the shape is applied to the mouthpiece.  This machine is very fast, the limiting factor being how fast the mouthpiece blank can be put into the holding fixture, ZAP!!! the facing is cut in less than a second, and the faced mouthpiece removed from the fixture.  They can face about 6 to 8 mouthpieces a minute.

If you were wanting a template from a mouthpiece you have in hand, you could use a tool like this, and take measurements from it.  It is a "contour gauge", a small version of the type a woodworker uses to make a template from molding.

http://www.micromark.com/5-INCH-METAL-CONTOUR-GAUGE,9335.html

Paul

It is also possible to get a general idea by stacking together the .050 
and the .034.   You even them up kind of like you would with a deck of 
cards.  This is what Claude Humber did.

I think you feel the facing from the friction on the sand paper.  
Rocking is frictionless; therefore, I don't think there is much to learn 
from rocking.  I like to use the reflection method as an extra way to 
see what is going on.

Keith Bradbury wrote:
> I do not think it has been mentioned here.  I have heard that some 
> refacers who only have the classic feeler set up to .050" use "feel" 
> on a flat surface to help with free-handing the rest of the facing 
> curve for large tip openings.  I think that if you can feel a flat 
> section or "kink", you can usually see a reflection off of the 
> irregularities when you look at the rails.  The reflection may be able 
> to detect even more than by "rocking".  But an extended feeler set is 
> the best way to ensure the left and right rails are even near the tip.
>

Hal,
I was rocking the facing on a sheet of flat glass, with no sand paper.
Brass on glass. One hard surface on another. What I was feeling for was
the least bit of rolling resistance.  Imagine, if you will, what a slight
bump or flat spot on a railroad wheel feels like when the wheel rolls over
it. Same idea, only on a shorter length of arc.

Keith, I tried your suggestion, but I think that either my eyes or my
lighting arrangement didn't cut it.

Barry


> I think you feel the facing from the friction on the sand paper.
> Rocking is frictionless; therefore, I don't think there is much to learn
> from rocking.  I like to use the reflection method as an extra way to
> see what is going on.
>
> Keith Bradbury wrote:
>> I do not think it has been mentioned here.  I have heard that some
>> refacers who only have the classic feeler set up to .050" use "feel"
>> on a flat surface to help with free-handing the rest of the facing
>> curve for large tip openings.  I think that if you can feel a flat
>> section or "kink", you can usually see a reflection off of the
>> irregularities when you look at the rails.  The reflection may be able
>> to detect even more than by "rocking".  But an extended feeler set is
>> the best way to ensure the left and right rails are even near the tip.
>>
>
>

> It is also possible to get a general idea by stacking together the .050
> and the .034.   You even them up kind of like you would with a deck of
> cards.  This is what Claude Humber did.


I've made intermediate thickness feeler gauges by electric spot welding
various combinations together with an old dental spot welder I inherited
from my father.

B

"dental spot welder"? Could you please go into a little more detail on this tool's application to horn repair and restoration. And are there any other dental tools that you have found applicable to instrument tech work?

--- On Thu, 5/27/10, Barry Levine <barrylevine@...> wrote:


From: Barry Levine <barrylevine@...>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Rocking test
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, May 27, 2010, 7:54 PM


  



> It is also possible to get a general idea by stacking together the .050
> and the .034. You even them up kind of like you would with a deck of
> cards. This is what Claude Humber did.

I've made intermediate thickness feeler gauges by electric spot welding
various combinations together with an old dental spot welder I inherited
from my father.

B









      

I've never considered other applications for the spot welder for repair.
It's basically a box with a big transformer, with high current and low
voltage at the business end, which consists of 2 copper rods that pinch the
items you're welding together and pass current thru a small area.

The dental use was to spot weld small hooks and other thingys onto stainless
steel bands, for orthodontia.


on 5/28/10 5:28 AM, Lance at entropicwolf@... wrote:

 
"dental spot welder"? Could you please go into a little more detail on this
tool's application to horn repair and restoration. And are there any other
dental tools that you have found applicable to instrument tech work?

It could also be that the rails are not polished enough for you to to see irregularities.  I swipe the rails on very fine sandpaper and then polish the rails on the back of a sheet of sandpaper.

 



________________________________
From: Barry Levine <barrylevine@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, May 27, 2010 8:51:31 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Rocking test


Keith, I tried your suggestion, but I think that either my eyes or my
lighting arrangement didn't cut it.


      

I've got a magnifying visor such as doctors and jewelers use which  
really helps in seeing irregularities. These are available from many  
different vendors. I've added a couple of accessories: a 10X loupe and  
LED lights right on the visor. Since I will be 60 this July, I need  
all the visual help I can get.

It is essential that the rails be completely clean and highly  
polished, or you will never see flaws and bemishes.


On May 28, 2010, at 8:21 AM, Keith Bradbury wrote:

>
> It could also be that the rails are not polished enough for you to  
> to see irregularities.  I swipe the rails on very fine sandpaper and  
> then polish the rails on the back of a sheet of sandpaper.
>
>
>
> From: Barry Levine <barrylevine@...>
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, May 27, 2010 8:51:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Rocking test
>
> Keith, I tried your suggestion, but I think that either my eyes or my
> lighting arrangement didn't cut it.
>
>
>
>
>