not happy with answer on other forum, the question is;
if an alto mpc tunes to A,tenor to G and soprano to C what does a c-melody mouthpiece tune to? And why would be nice. I have faith that on a site dedicated to making and altering mouthpieces all will come clear.

The mouthpiece pitch targets are a useful teaching aid for a basic embouchure.  They are not set in stone, just ballpark targets.  For example, the sop sax target is sometimes stated as Db, sometimes C.  Many jazz players prefer a looser embouchure that is as much as 2.5 steps below the targets.  They push in and loosen up to get the sound they want and use their ear to lip the intonation in tune.  But if you are having intonation problems, getting an embouchure closer to these targets often helps.  

I have never seen a target for C mel tenor.  But it would be between the alto and tenor targets.  So G# should work close enough.  If you are 1/2 step either way, you are probably still OK.  

As an alternative to the MP pitch targets, you can use the strategy described by Dr. Stephen Duke.  I think it is aimed to get you to the same place as the MP pitch targets:

http://www.giles.com/educatorforum/PDFs/bno/Wind/tips/Duke.pdf




________________________________
From: waddje <waddje@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, April 16, 2010 9:41:13 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] c melody mouthpiece

  
not happy with answer on other forum, the question is;
if an alto mpc tunes to A,tenor to G and soprano to C what does a c-melody mouthpiece tune to? And why would be nice. I have faith that on a site dedicated to making and altering mouthpieces all will come clear.





      

a nice kit :)
http://www.fileden.com/files/2010/4/16/2829850//Kit%20Demo.pdf


--- Sab 17/4/10, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> ha scritto:

Da: Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>
Oggetto: Re: [MouthpieceWork] c melody mouthpiece
A: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Data: Sabato 17 Aprile 2010, 16:00







 



  


    
      
      
      
The mouthpiece pitch targets are a useful teaching aid for a basic embouchure.  They are not set in stone, just ballpark targets.  For example, the sop sax target is sometimes stated as Db, sometimes C.  Many jazz players prefer a looser embouchure that is as much as 2.5 steps below the targets.  They push in and loosen up to get the sound they want and use their ear to lip the intonation in tune.  But if you are having intonation problems, getting an embouchure closer to these targets often helps.  
 
I have never seen a target for C mel tenor.  But it would be between the alto and tenor targets.  So G# should work close enough.  If you are 1/2 step either way, you are probably still OK.  
 
As an alternative to the MP pitch targets, you can use the strategy described by Dr. Stephen Duke.  I think it is aimed to get you to the same place as the MP pitch targets:
 
http://www.giles. com/educatorforu m/PDFs/bno/ Wind/tips/ Duke.pdf





From: waddje <waddje@yahoo. ca>
To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Fri, April 16, 2010 9:41:13 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] c melody mouthpiece

  

not happy with answer on other forum, the question is;
if an alto mpc tunes to A,tenor to G and soprano to C what does a c-melody mouthpiece tune to? And why would be nice. I have faith that on a site dedicated to making and altering mouthpieces all will come clear.












      

    
     

    
    


 



  






      

E FLAT is what a C melody Mouthpiece only tunes to.

I just tested it with a Runyon Custom with or without a spoiler, a #2 Plasticover reed (tenor size) and a Buescher C Melody horn to verify. This is using a classical style bottom lip edge covering the bottom teeth embouchure. Any tighter and it squeaks. I can force it to a D (with loose chops and a slow wind stream etc.), but the pitch relations of the horn suffers.

If you want the note of the factory set, let me know and I'll dig it out, too.

As to why, I do not know. I am just thankful this modern mouthpiece turned the horn into something that is a joy to use, plays in tune without excessive bending of pitches, and must be a joy to listen to.

E v e r e t t F i d l e r




--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
>
> The mouthpiece pitch targets are a useful teaching aid for a basic embouchure.  They are not set in stone, just ballpark targets.  For example, the sop sax target is sometimes stated as Db, sometimes C.  Many jazz players prefer a looser embouchure that is as much as 2.5 steps below the targets.  They push in and loosen up to get the sound they want and use their ear to lip the intonation in tune.  But if you are having intonation problems, getting an embouchure closer to these targets often helps.  
> 
> I have never seen a target for C mel tenor.  But it would be between the alto and tenor targets.  So G# should work close enough.  If you are 1/2 step either way, you are probably still OK.  
> 
> As an alternative to the MP pitch targets, you can use the strategy described by Dr. Stephen Duke.  I think it is aimed to get you to the same place as the MP pitch targets:
> 
> http://www.giles.com/educatorforum/PDFs/bno/Wind/tips/Duke.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: waddje <waddje@...>
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, April 16, 2010 9:41:13 PM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] c melody mouthpiece
> 
>   
> not happy with answer on other forum, the question is;
> if an alto mpc tunes to A,tenor to G and soprano to C what does a c-melody mouthpiece tune to? And why would be nice. I have faith that on a site dedicated to making and altering mouthpieces all will come clear.
>

Interesting!  Your data disagrees with my logic.  ;)

What do you get when you play a Bb tenor and a Eb alto mouthpiece alone?

I'll dig out my C melody mouthpiece and see what I get.


      

I get the pitches like Paul C. posted from Runyon on my other mouthpieces. I had to check the tuner and piano again after I looked at your post.

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
>
> 
> Interesting!  Your data disagrees with my logic.  ;)
> 
> What do you get when you play a Bb tenor and a Eb alto mouthpiece alone?
> 
> I'll dig out my C melody mouthpiece and see what I get.
>

So far I have been picking up info from all the wonderful info in 
this group. But a new mouthpiece I had refaced recently caused me to 
wonder what in the world is going on. And this thread fits.

I usually play a tenor Link STM (refaced by Phil Engleman) or an 
older Dukoff D7 (Phil again). I know where these play in tune when 
placed on the neck cork. This newer piece, a Larsen 110/1 is the same 
length as the Dukoff and played OK until I checked it with my tuner. 
At the same location on the neck as the Dukoff, it was a semitone 
sharp, consistently. Before I could find the sweet spot to play in 
tune, it fell off the cork. Not literally.

Based on the discussion, should all tenor pieces tune to a G? And if 
two pieces are the same length, shouldn't they tune (cork position 
wise) to within some reasonable tolerance. I can understand minor 
differences due to baffle and chamber size but a semitone? Would the 
bullet chamber on the Larsen be responsible for such a difference? It 
just seems extreme no matter the design. 

The differences can be more than minor, depending on the baffle and chamber. I have a Runyon alto mpc in which I took out a some material at the back of the baffle and chamber. After I was finished I had to push it on the cork about 1 cm further to tune properly. Your case does seem a bit extreme,
 but if at the sweet spot it is playing in tune across the registers then you have the choice of keeping it in that position, or taking some material out of the chamber so that it will tune a bit further on the cork. 

Toby

Kevin DesRues <kdesrues@...> wrote:                                           So far I have been picking up info from all the wonderful info in 
 this group. But a new mouthpiece I had refaced recently caused me to 
 wonder what in the world is going on. And this thread fits.
 
 I usually play a tenor Link STM (refaced by Phil Engleman) or an 
 older Dukoff D7 (Phil again). I know where these play in tune when 
 placed on the neck cork. This newer piece, a Larsen 110/1 is the same 
 length as the Dukoff and played OK until I checked it with my tuner. 
 At the same location on the neck as the Dukoff, it was a semitone 
 sharp, consistently. Before I could find the sweet spot to play in 
 tune, it fell off the cork. Not literally.
 
 Based on the discussion, should all tenor pieces tune to a G? And if 
 two pieces are the same length, shouldn't they tune (cork position 
 wise) to within some reasonable tolerance. I can understand minor 
 differences due to baffle and chamber size but a semitone? Would the 
 bullet chamber on the Larsen be responsible for such a difference? It 
 just seems extreme no matter the design. 
 
 
      
                 
                 
 

"Based on the discussion, should all tenor pieces tune to a G? And if 

 two pieces are the same length, shouldn't they tune (cork position 

 wise) to within some reasonable tolerance."

To understand, visualize the truncated body and the extended theoretical missing cone.  The ideal mouthpiece has the same chamber + reed compliance volume as this missing cone.  If the mouthpiece has more volume than that, it is equivalent to a missing cone with more volume - having a more gradual taper than the body and a longer distance to the apex, and thus being longer, it lowers the pitch of the instrument.  A mouthpiece with less volume than the ideal, is equivalent to a missing cone with less volume - having a steeper taper than the body and a shorter distance to the apex, and thus being shorter, raises the pitch.  In short, it's more about mouthpiece volume and equivalent theoretical length than it is about the actual physical mouthpiece length,.



 My guess is that the STM and the Dukoff



      

Then should all tenor mp's, played by itself, produce the same pitch regardless of chamber volume?

Is that pitch a function of pipe length with volume not a factor?

Tom De Winter


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: MartinMods 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:59 PM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: c melody mouthpiece


    
        "Based on the discussion, should all tenor pieces tune to a G? And if 
        two pieces are the same length, shouldn't they tune (cork position 
        wise) to within some reasonable tolerance."

        To understand, visualize the truncated body and the extended theoretical missing cone.  The ideal mouthpiece has the same chamber + reed compliance volume as this missing cone.  If the mouthpiece has more volume than that, it is equivalent to a missing cone with more volume - having a more gradual taper than the body and a longer distance to the apex, and thus being longer, it lowers the pitch of the instrument.  A mouthpiece with less volume than the ideal, is equivalent to a missing cone with less volume - having a steeper taper than the body and a shorter distance to the apex, and thus being shorter, raises the pitch.  In short, it's more about mouthpiece volume and equivalent theoretical length than it is about the actual physical mouthpiece length,.



         My guess is that the STM and the Dukoff
       



  

More than anything else, it is up to the PLAYER to produce the proper  
and necessary pitch.....adjustments by the player will always be  
necessary to accommodate the physical differences in mouthpieces



On Apr 20, 2010, at 8:59 PM, MartinMods wrote:

>
> "Based on the discussion, should all tenor pieces tune to a G? And if
> two pieces are the same length, shouldn't they tune (cork position
> wise) to within some reasonable tolerance."
>
> To understand, visualize the truncated body and the extended  
> theoretical missing cone.  The ideal mouthpiece has the same chamber  
> + reed compliance volume as this missing cone.  If the mouthpiece  
> has more volume than that, it is equivalent to a missing cone with  
> more volume - having a more gradual taper than the body and a longer  
> distance to the apex, and thus being longer, it lowers the pitch of  
> the instrument.  A mouthpiece with less volume than the ideal, is  
> equivalent to a missing cone with less volume - having a steeper  
> taper than the body and a shorter distance to the apex, and thus  
> being shorter, raises the pitch.  In short, it's more about  
> mouthpiece volume and equivalent theoretical length than it is about  
> the actual physical mouthpiece length,.
>
>
>
>  My guess is that the STM and the Dukoff
>
>
> 

The mouthpiece pitch target is just a way to help set your embouchure.  The same pitch works on small or large chamber mouthpieces.  The adjustment for large vs small chamber volumes is made on the neck cork.  Large chamber mouthpiece are usually a little shorter than small chamber mouthpieces. But if the design length does not compensate enough, you need to set your embouchure with the mouthpiece pitch target, then tune the mouthpiece on the neck cork while using the same embouchure.


      

proper intonation is about FAR more than just the equipment.....there  
is that thing about practicing, which is often overlooked. Good  
equipment will HELP, but there is simply no substitute for time in the  
shed.....


On Apr 21, 2010, at 8:48 AM, Keith Bradbury wrote:

>
> The mouthpiece pitch target is just a way to help set your  
> embouchure.  The same pitch works on small or large chamber  
> mouthpieces.  The adjustment for large vs small chamber volumes is  
> made on the neck cork.  Large chamber mouthpiece are usually a  
> little shorter than small chamber mouthpieces. But if the design  
> length does not compensate enough, you need to set your embouchure  
> with the mouthpiece pitch target, then tune the mouthpiece on the  
> neck cork while using the same embouchure.
>
>
> 

For some fortunate few indivuals a proper embouchure that can focus on good intonation and a good ear are a gift.  Most wind players spend many years developing this skill.

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...> wrote:
>
> proper intonation is about FAR more than just the equipment.....there  
> is that thing about practicing, which is often overlooked. Good  
> equipment will HELP, but there is simply no substitute for time in the  
> shed.....
> 
> 
> On Apr 21, 2010, at 8:48 AM, Keith Bradbury wrote:
> 
> >
> > The mouthpiece pitch target is just a way to help set your  
> > embouchure.  The same pitch works on small or large chamber  
> > mouthpieces.  The adjustment for large vs small chamber volumes is  
> > made on the neck cork.  Large chamber mouthpiece are usually a  
> > little shorter than small chamber mouthpieces. But if the design  
> > length does not compensate enough, you need to set your embouchure  
> > with the mouthpiece pitch target, then tune the mouthpiece on the  
> > neck cork while using the same embouchure.
> >
> >
> >
>

I have all my students learn to play scales and simple tunes on JUST  
the mouthpiece without moving the lower lip. This teaches the use of  
the oral cavity and the larynx. After a month or two of this,  
intonation is rarely a significant problem.


On Apr 21, 2010, at 10:10 AM, gregwier wrote:

>
> For some fortunate few indivuals a proper embouchure that can focus  
> on good intonation and a good ear are a gift. Most wind players  
> spend many years developing this skill.
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, STEVE GOODSON  
> <saxgourmet@...> wrote:
> >
> > proper intonation is about FAR more than just the  
> equipment.....there
> > is that thing about practicing, which is often overlooked. Good
> > equipment will HELP, but there is simply no substitute for time in  
> the
> > shed.....
> >
> >
> > On Apr 21, 2010, at 8:48 AM, Keith Bradbury wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > The mouthpiece pitch target is just a way to help set your
> > > embouchure. The same pitch works on small or large chamber
> > > mouthpieces. The adjustment for large vs small chamber volumes is
> > > made on the neck cork. Large chamber mouthpiece are usually a
> > > little shorter than small chamber mouthpieces. But if the design
> > > length does not compensate enough, you need to set your embouchure
> > > with the mouthpiece pitch target, then tune the mouthpiece on the
> > > neck cork while using the same embouchure.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> 

I just pulled out my Buescher C mouthpiece and it blew a concert G# with my "normal" sax embouchure.  So I get between a G (tenor) and a A (alto) as I previously speculated.  I did not test my embouchure on a C-melody sax.  Mine has the original white pads which are a tad old... 




________________________________
From: fidlershorns <grassinospam@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 10:31:39 AM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: c melody mouthpiece

  
I get the pitches like Paul C. posted from Runyon on my other mouthpieces. I had to check the tuner and piano again after I looked at your post.

--- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@ ...> wrote:
>
> 
> Interesting!  Your data disagrees with my logic.  ;)
> 
> What do you get when you play a Bb tenor and a Eb alto mouthpiece alone?
> 
> I'll dig out my C melody mouthpiece and see what I get.
>





      

No. It is dependent both on volume and diameter of the end opening.

Toby

Tom De Winter <tdewinter@...> wrote:                                              
Then should all tenor mp's, played by  itself, produce the same pitch regardless of chamber volume?
  
 Is that pitch a function of pipe length with volume  not a factor?
  
 Tom De Winter
  
  
    ----- Original Message ----- 
   From:    MartinMods 
   To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com    
   Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:59    PM
   Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: c    melody mouthpiece
   

                            "Based on the discussion, should all tenor pieces tune to          a G? And if 
two pieces are the same length, shouldn't they tune          (cork position 
wise) to within some reasonable tolerance."

To          understand, visualize the truncated body and the extended theoretical          missing cone.  The ideal mouthpiece has the same chamber + reed          compliance volume as this missing cone.  If the mouthpiece has more          volume than that, it is equivalent to a missing cone with
 more volume -          having a more gradual taper than the body and a longer distance to the          apex, and thus being longer, it lowers the pitch of the          instrument.  A mouthpiece with less volume than the ideal, is          equivalent to a missing cone with less volume - having a
 steeper taper          than the body and a shorter distance to the apex, and thus being          shorter, raises the pitch.  In short, it's more about mouthpiece          volume and equivalent theoretical length than it is about the actual          physical mouthpiece length,.



 My guess is that the          STM and the Dukoff



 
      
                 
                 
 

Keith,
Just to further check on our differing results, I dug out my "The Buescher C" mouthpiece. I had it faced to Selmer C* specs and have a little Power Tone stick-in-bump baffle in it. It also plays G# (bendable up to Bb) with a #2.5 R. Royal reed. So on this mouthpiece that is closer to my classical set up - we agree on G#.

The Runyon mouthpiece (that plays great high notes the Buescher is awful on) has a 7 facing. I just re-tested with a brand new #2 Plasticover reed I know I did not clip the tip on. I still get a lower note, E to F. It just may be that I am not fully adjusted to the larger tip opening.
  
I do know the Runyon Custom mouthpiece makes the horn worth playing, even if I am lower than the target pitch on just the mouthpiece.

E ve r e t t t  F i d l e r 

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
>
> I just pulled out my Buescher C mouthpiece and it blew a concert G# with my "normal" sax embouchure.  So I get between a G (tenor) and a A (alto) as I previously speculated.  I did not test my embouchure on a C-melody sax.  Mine has the original white pads which are a tad old... 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: fidlershorns <grassinospam@...>
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 10:31:39 AM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: c melody mouthpiece
> 
>   
> I get the pitches like Paul C. posted from Runyon on my other mouthpieces. I had to check the tuner and piano again after I looked at your post.
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > Interesting!  Your data disagrees with my logic.  ;)
> > 
> > What do you get when you play a Bb tenor and a Eb alto mouthpiece alone?
> > 
> > I'll dig out my C melody mouthpiece and see what I get.
> >
>

I believe the essential benefit of the mouthpiece pitch recommendations
is to help the player to set the lip pressure against the reed within
the range that allows the reed to vibrate in the most efficient manner.

At the time Santy Runyon prescribed these mouthpiece pitches, many of
the saxophone players and teachers were clarinetists who started to
double on the saxophone as the instrument became more popular.  It is
very likely that those clarinet players had the tendency to play near
the top of pitch of the mouthpiece similar to the way the clarinet is
played.

Relaxing the pressure against the reed allows more of the reed to
vibrate due to the curvature of the lay.  This allows the reed to
vibrate in a wider arc producing a wider range of dynamics as well as
giving the player more flexibility to adjust the pitch.  Rather than say
that each mouthpiece should play at those target pitches, it would be
more practical to teach that the pitch of the mouthpiece should not be
played above those target pitches.

As I have written previously, I am becoming more and more convinced that
the "mouthpiece pitch" ie. optimum lip pressure on the reed is the key
to matching the Frs requirement given by Benade once the mouthpiece
volume has been set to match that of the missing cone.  In my own
playing and teaching experience the pitch of the octaves and registers
"lock in" once the pinching of the reed is corrected and the pitch of
the mouthpiece + neck matches the calculated frequency of that
"miniature" saxophone.



--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, <kymarto123@...> wrote:
>
> No. It is dependent both on volume and diameter of the end opening.
>
> Toby
>
> Tom De Winter tdewinter@... wrote:
> Then should all tenor mp's, played by  itself, produce the same pitch
regardless of chamber volume?
>
>  Is that pitch a function of pipe length with volume  not a factor?
>
>  Tom De Winter
>
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>    From:    MartinMods
>    To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>    Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:59    PM
>    Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: c    melody mouthpiece
>
>
>                             "Based on the discussion, should all tenor
pieces tune to          a G? And if
> two pieces are the same length, shouldn't they tune          (cork
position
> wise) to within some reasonable tolerance."
>
> To          understand, visualize the truncated body and the extended
theoretical          missing cone.  The ideal mouthpiece has the same
chamber + reed          compliance volume as this missing cone.  If the
mouthpiece has more          volume than that, it is equivalent to a
missing cone with
>  more volume -          having a more gradual taper than the body and
a longer distance to the          apex, and thus being longer, it lowers
the pitch of the          instrument.  A mouthpiece with less volume
than the ideal, is          equivalent to a missing cone with less
volume - having a
>  steeper taper          than the body and a shorter distance to the
apex, and thus being          shorter, raises the pitch.  In short, it's
more about mouthpiece          volume and equivalent theoretical length
than it is about the actual          physical mouthpiece length,.
>
>
>
>  My guess is that the          STM and the Dukoff
>