1. Does the time that the MP/reed holds a vacuum indicate that
   the MP lay is correct for that reed?

2. I like a mellow, ballad sound which requires specific lip
   damping. I set the MP to tune first-reg G using the required
   lip pressure. When I check the tuning of middle C, I find that
   it is flat. I move the MP in to level the G to C. Now, however,
   I have to loosen my lip to get the G to the proper pitch. The
   G to C is the correct pitch but the sound is too raw for me.
   Does this indicate that the chamber needs to be enlarged?

Thanks for the help,

jim

1)not necessarily.  any softer reed will seal longer.

2)This indicates tone production system (embochure, vocal cavity) issues rather than mouthpiece size issues.

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "perksjim" <mcbop@...> wrote:
>
> 1. Does the time that the MP/reed holds a vacuum indicate that
>    the MP lay is correct for that reed?
> 
> 2. I like a mellow, ballad sound which requires specific lip
>    damping. I set the MP to tune first-reg G using the required
>    lip pressure. When I check the tuning of middle C, I find that
>    it is flat. I move the MP in to level the G to C. Now, however,
>    I have to loosen my lip to get the G to the proper pitch. The
>    G to C is the correct pitch but the sound is too raw for me.
>    Does this indicate that the chamber needs to be enlarged?
> 
> Thanks for the help,
> 
> jim
>

I hope I'm wrong, but I get the impression from Morgan's comments that He 
thinks I am stupid, or can't play or both. Please, somebody give me a direct 
response.

Thanks kindly,

jim
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Morgan 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 12:28 PM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Practical Questions


    
  1)not necessarily. any softer reed will seal longer.

  2)This indicates tone production system (embochure, vocal cavity) issues rather than mouthpiece size issues.

  --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "perksjim" <mcbop@...> wrote:
  >
  > 1. Does the time that the MP/reed holds a vacuum indicate that
  > the MP lay is correct for that reed?
  > 
  > 2. I like a mellow, ballad sound which requires specific lip
  > damping. I set the MP to tune first-reg G using the required
  > lip pressure. When I check the tuning of middle C, I find that
  > it is flat. I move the MP in to level the G to C. Now, however,
  > I have to loosen my lip to get the G to the proper pitch. The
  > G to C is the correct pitch but the sound is too raw for me.
  > Does this indicate that the chamber needs to be enlarged?
  > 
  > Thanks for the help,
  > 
  > jim
  >



  

There is no connection between Morgan's remarks and what you are posting here. 

To clarify, the problems you are experiencing with intonation may be due to the tendencies of your saxophone not the mouthpiece. Play testing a number of mouthpieces on your saxophone with the same results or intonation problems would verify this. 

It would be better to try a larger design mouthpiece rather than modify yours in hopes of resoving the intonation issues. Once material is removed from the chamber going back to original is not easy. The quest for a compatible mouthpiece match for your sax may take alot of trial. 

 



--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Jim West" <mcbop@...> wrote:
>
> I hope I'm wrong, but I get the impression from Morgan's comments that He 
> thinks I am stupid, or can't play or both. Please, somebody give me a direct 
> response.
> 
> Thanks kindly,
> 
> jim
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Morgan 
>   To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 12:28 PM
>   Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Practical Questions
> 
> 
>     
>   1)not necessarily. any softer reed will seal longer.
> 
>   2)This indicates tone production system (embochure, vocal cavity) issues rather than mouthpiece size issues.
> 
>   --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "perksjim" <mcbop@> wrote:
>   >
>   > 1. Does the time that the MP/reed holds a vacuum indicate that
>   > the MP lay is correct for that reed?
>   > 
>   > 2. I like a mellow, ballad sound which requires specific lip
>   > damping. I set the MP to tune first-reg G using the required
>   > lip pressure. When I check the tuning of middle C, I find that
>   > it is flat. I move the MP in to level the G to C. Now, however,
>   > I have to loosen my lip to get the G to the proper pitch. The
>   > G to C is the correct pitch but the sound is too raw for me.
>   > Does this indicate that the chamber needs to be enlarged?
>   > 
>   > Thanks for the help,
>   > 
>   > jim
>   >
>

Sorry, Jim, I didn't mean to impugn your abilities.  As we haven't met and I haven't heard you play, I have no opinion about you whatsoever.  If I may clarify -- I think the distance between bottom G and middle C in a too-short-(or long)-because-of-mouthpiece-chamber-size octave isn't going to be noticeable. In my experience the difference really shows up at the top end of the horn (short tube notes in the second octave).  IIRC somebody has written that incorrect mouthpiece volume affects the second mode more than the fundamental (if I'm wrong, somebody correct me on this please).  

Greg's point is well taken, though, it could well be the horn.

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Jim West" <mcbop@...> wrote:
>
> I hope I'm wrong, but I get the impression from Morgan's comments that He 
> thinks I am stupid, or can't play or both. Please, somebody give me a direct 
> response.
> 
> Thanks kindly,
> 
> jim
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Morgan 
>   To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 12:28 PM
>   Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Practical Questions
> 
> 
>     
>   1)not necessarily. any softer reed will seal longer.
> 
>   2)This indicates tone production system (embochure, vocal cavity) issues rather than mouthpiece size issues.
> 
>   --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "perksjim" <mcbop@> wrote:
>   >
>   > 1. Does the time that the MP/reed holds a vacuum indicate that
>   > the MP lay is correct for that reed?
>   > 
>   > 2. I like a mellow, ballad sound which requires specific lip
>   > damping. I set the MP to tune first-reg G using the required
>   > lip pressure. When I check the tuning of middle C, I find that
>   > it is flat. I move the MP in to level the G to C. Now, however,
>   > I have to loosen my lip to get the G to the proper pitch. The
>   > G to C is the correct pitch but the sound is too raw for me.
>   > Does this indicate that the chamber needs to be enlarged?
>   > 
>   > Thanks for the help,
>   > 
>   > jim
>   >
>

I have noticed that some mouthpieces have less stability of intonation,
period. It's not totally clear to me that this is just a function of length
of missing cone vs. volume, that is, I also think it's a function of facing
curve, and of reed cut as well.

It's most noticeable on soprano, where intonation seems more sensitive to
variations in lip pressure, and where larger facings are more difficult to
play in tune, but I've also experienced it on other pieces as well.

I've also experienced that certain reeds just won't play sweetly, even if
they seem to play easily enough.

In any case, besides trying different mouthpieces, you might try some
different reeds (an option of somewhat lesser expense). I do think that the
facing curve and the reed cut can have an optimal match, as you inferred in
your original post.

> From: "gregwier" <gregwier@...>
> Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 22:11:26 -0000
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Practical Questions
> 
> There is no connection between Morgan's remarks and what you are posting here.
> 
> To clarify, the problems you are experiencing with intonation may be due to
> the tendencies of your saxophone not the mouthpiece. Play testing a number of
> mouthpieces on your saxophone with the same results or intonation problems
> would verify this.
> 
> It would be better to try a larger design mouthpiece rather than modify yours
> in hopes of resoving the intonation issues. Once material is removed from the
> chamber going back to original is not easy. The quest for a compatible
> mouthpiece match for your sax may take alot of trial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Jim West" <mcbop@...> wrote:
>> 
>> I hope I'm wrong, but I get the impression from Morgan's comments that He
>> thinks I am stupid, or can't play or both. Please, somebody give me a direct
>> response.
>> 
>> Thanks kindly,
>> 
>> jim
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: Morgan 
>>   To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>   Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 12:28 PM
>>   Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Practical Questions
>> 
>> 
>>     
>>   1)not necessarily. any softer reed will seal longer.
>> 
>>   2)This indicates tone production system (embochure, vocal cavity) issues
>> rather than mouthpiece size issues.
>> 
>>   --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "perksjim" <mcbop@> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 1. Does the time that the MP/reed holds a vacuum indicate that
>>> the MP lay is correct for that reed?
>>> 
>>> 2. I like a mellow, ballad sound which requires specific lip
>>> damping. I set the MP to tune first-reg G using the required
>>> lip pressure. When I check the tuning of middle C, I find that
>>> it is flat. I move the MP in to level the G to C. Now, however,
>>> I have to loosen my lip to get the G to the proper pitch. The
>>> G to C is the correct pitch but the sound is too raw for me.
>>> Does this indicate that the chamber needs to be enlarged?
>>> 
>>> Thanks for the help,
>>> 
>>> jim
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 

1. There is a general trend with the suction test and facing quality.  However, there are too many exceptions for this to be a good test.  I have played many mouthpieces that fail the test but play well and many that pass the test and play poorly.  The test is more useful to establish what is normal for your mouthpiece and reed combo.  Then when you put a different reed on you can test if seals like the most reeds do on you mouthpiece. 

2. I doubt a larger chamber will help but it might be worth a try.  Like others have said, these notes (G1 & C2) are too close together for chamber size to have a large effect.  C2 is an easier note to lip so I would tend to tune to the lower notes and adjust more on the shorter ones.  

Have you tested your embouchure support by playing the mouthpiece alone to see what pitch you get?  You can compare the pitch to the Runyon targets to see if you are in the ballpark.  You may get better results playing looser and pushing in or vice-versa.

This article may also provide ideas for you to try:
http://www.yamaha.ca/advertising/downloads/wsp_articles/Wind_Tips_Duke.pdf


--- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "perksjim" <mcbop@...> wrote:
>
> 1. Does the time that the MP/reed holds a vacuum indicate that
> the MP lay is correct for that reed?
> 
> 2. I like a mellow, ballad sound which requires specific lip
> damping. I set the MP to tune first-reg G using the required
> lip pressure. When I check the tuning of middle C, I find that
> it is flat. I move the MP in to level the G to C. Now, however,
> I have to loosen my lip to get the G to the proper pitch. The
> G to C is the correct pitch but the sound is too raw for me.
> Does this indicate that the chamber needs to be enlarged?


      

perksjim wrote:
>
> 1. Does the time that the MP/reed holds a vacuum indicate that
> the MP lay is correct for that reed?
>
Hal>It depends. Many good mouthpieces do well with that test. It's a 
good indication; but, some good setups don't do it. Some sax players say 
it is bad for the reed. I don't think it is. It really does work better 
with softer reeds.

>
> 2. I like a mellow, ballad sound which requires specific lip
> damping. I set the MP to tune first-reg G using the required
> lip pressure. When I check the tuning of middle C, I find that
> it is flat. I move the MP in to level the G to C. Now, however,
> I have to loosen my lip to get the G to the proper pitch. The
> G to C is the correct pitch but the sound is too raw for me.
> Does this indicate that the chamber needs to be enlarged?
>
Hal> Try playing the mouthpiece off the horn.

>
> Thanks for the help,
>
> jim
>
> 

Hi Jim,

AFAIK holding a vacuum really only tells you that the rails are smooth. The rails can be quite unbalanced and it will still hold a vacuum. Obviously the fact that any reed acts like a spring and will return to its rest position also means that the more closed the tip, the longer the vacuum will be
 held. 

Mpc volume matching (again AFAIK) basically affects only the mode relationships of the registers. Since your C and G are both in the first register I doubt that mpc volume has much to do with anything. More probably it is the horn itself. However, you can try putting some chewing gum in the
 chamber and reducing the volume temporarily to see what happens. That will force you to pull the mpc further off the neck to regain the correct volume. If that makes the problem worse then you could try to enlarge the chamber, but my informal experiments indicate to me that the chamber size has
 little effect on the first mode. What happens when you go down to C1? What is the relationship between C1 and C2 when you are playing with your preferred embouchure?

Toby

perksjim <mcbop@...> wrote:                                           1. Does the time that the MP/reed holds a vacuum indicate that
    the MP lay is correct for that reed?
 
 2. I like a mellow, ballad sound which requires specific lip
    damping. I set the MP to tune first-reg G using the required
    lip pressure. When I check the tuning of middle C, I find that
    it is flat. I move the MP in to level the G to C. Now, however,
    I have to loosen my lip to get the G to the proper pitch. The
    G to C is the correct pitch but the sound is too raw for me.
    Does this indicate that the chamber needs to be enlarged?
 
 Thanks for the help,
 
 jim