Recently refaced a Selmer S90 alto mouthpiece. Because I only wanted to take the slightest bit away from the baffle, I used 600grit sandpaper and made a few misses which hacked away at the tip rail. How can I form and shape the tip rail?

I do it with a round needle file, then clean it up with progressively finer sandpaper wrapped around a 1/2 round file.  After polishing a short swipe of the tip rail on 1200 grit paper will clean up any minor slips onto the tip rail.

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "MichaelP" <xmichaelpartlowx@...> wrote:
>
> Recently refaced a Selmer S90 alto mouthpiece. Because I only wanted to take the slightest bit away from the baffle, I used 600grit sandpaper and made a few misses which hacked away at the tip rail. How can I form and shape the tip rail?
>

I use a very fine narrow flat file held at a slight angle to make diagonal
cuts to form the rail itself, and then clean it up first with a couple of
swipes on a piece of glass covered with 1200 grit paper.

 

From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Morgan
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:47 PM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: How to form the tip rail?

 

  


I do it with a round needle file, then clean it up with progressively finer
sandpaper wrapped around a 1/2 round file. After polishing a short swipe of
the tip rail on 1200 grit paper will clean up any minor slips onto the tip
rail.

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com> , "MichaelP"
<xmichaelpartlowx@...> wrote:
>
> Recently refaced a Selmer S90 alto mouthpiece. Because I only wanted to
take the slightest bit away from the baffle, I used 600grit sandpaper and
made a few misses which hacked away at the tip rail. How can I form and
shape the tip rail?
>

If your tip rail is now too thin in spots, you will need to open the tip some to get a wider tip rail to work with.  Then you can reshape the outside edge to match the tip of a reed and the inside edge to get a uniform thickness with the desired width.




________________________________
From: Morgan <frymorgan@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, March 15, 2010 5:47:03 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: How to form the tip rail?

  

I do it with a round needle file, then clean it up with progressively finer sandpaper wrapped around a 1/2 round file. After polishing a short swipe of the tip rail on 1200 grit paper will clean up any minor slips onto the tip rail.

--- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "MichaelP" <xmichaelpartlowx@ ...> wrote:
>
> Recently refaced a Selmer S90 alto mouthpiece. Because I only wanted to take the slightest bit away from the baffle, I used 600grit sandpaper and made a few misses which hacked away at the tip rail. How can I form and shape the tip rail?
>





      

I'm sorry for being such an amateur, but is the tip rail an area of added material, or is it a zone with less material? The tip rail I have is only slightly mixed into the slight rollover baffle so will taking away a little of the material at the very tip make the tip rail? There doesn't seem to be many useful resources for forming of the tip rail :(

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
>
> If your tip rail is now too thin in spots, you will need to open the tip some to get a wider tip rail to work with.  Then you can reshape the outside edge to match the tip of a reed and the inside edge to get a uniform thickness with the desired width.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Morgan <frymorgan@...>
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, March 15, 2010 5:47:03 PM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: How to form the tip rail?
> 
>   
> 
> I do it with a round needle file, then clean it up with progressively finer sandpaper wrapped around a 1/2 round file. After polishing a short swipe of the tip rail on 1200 grit paper will clean up any minor slips onto the tip rail.
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "MichaelP" <xmichaelpartlowx@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Recently refaced a Selmer S90 alto mouthpiece. Because I only wanted to take the slightest bit away from the baffle, I used 600grit sandpaper and made a few misses which hacked away at the tip rail. How can I form and shape the tip rail?
> >
>

The tip rail is where the end of the reed touches the
curved end of the mpc. The side rails should smoothly
connect to the tip rail, so that the reed, when it closes,
lays down along the side side rails and then closes the
mpc shut when the tip hits the tip rail. 

The tip rail therefore should be a thin, flat, crescent at
the end of the mpc. Basically the thinner the better, but
the most critical part is that the side rails should be
even and the tip rail should span them evenly. If one side
is higher than the other this can and probably will cause
problems.

Toby

--- MichaelP <xmichaelpartlowx@...> wrote:

> I'm sorry for being such an amateur, but is the tip
> rail an area of added material, or is it a zone with
> less material? The tip rail I have is only slightly
> mixed into the slight rollover baffle so will taking
> away a little of the material at the very tip make
> the tip rail? There doesn't seem to be many useful
> resources for forming of the tip rail :(
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith
> Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
> >
> > If your tip rail is now too thin in spots, you
> will need to open the tip some to get a wider tip
> rail to work with.� Then you can reshape the
> outside edge to match the tip of a reed and the
> inside edge to get a uniform thickness with the
> desired width.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > From: Morgan <frymorgan@...>
> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Mon, March 15, 2010 5:47:03 PM
> > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: How to form the tip
> rail?
> > 
> > � 
> > 
> > I do it with a round needle file, then clean it up
> with progressively finer sandpaper wrapped around a
> 1/2 round file. After polishing a short swipe of the
> tip rail on 1200 grit paper will clean up any minor
> slips onto the tip rail.
> > 
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com,
> "MichaelP" <xmichaelpartlowx@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Recently refaced a Selmer S90 alto mouthpiece.
> Because I only wanted to take the slightest bit away
> from the baffle, I used 600grit sandpaper and made a
> few misses which hacked away at the tip rail. How
> can I form and shape the tip rail?
> > >
> >
> 
> 
> 

Lastly, what effect does filing the tip have on the mouthpiece. I want to file the tip down by 2mm. 

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, <kymarto123@...> wrote:
>
> The tip rail is where the end of the reed touches the
> curved end of the mpc. The side rails should smoothly
> connect to the tip rail, so that the reed, when it closes,
> lays down along the side side rails and then closes the
> mpc shut when the tip hits the tip rail. 
> 
> The tip rail therefore should be a thin, flat, crescent at
> the end of the mpc. Basically the thinner the better, but
> the most critical part is that the side rails should be
> even and the tip rail should span them evenly. If one side
> is higher than the other this can and probably will cause
> problems.
> 
> Toby
> 
> --- MichaelP <xmichaelpartlowx@...> wrote:
> 
> > I'm sorry for being such an amateur, but is the tip
> > rail an area of added material, or is it a zone with
> > less material? The tip rail I have is only slightly
> > mixed into the slight rollover baffle so will taking
> > away a little of the material at the very tip make
> > the tip rail? There doesn't seem to be many useful
> > resources for forming of the tip rail :(
> > 
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith
> > Bradbury <kwbradbury@> wrote:
> > >
> > > If your tip rail is now too thin in spots, you
> > will need to open the tip some to get a wider tip
> > rail to work with.� Then you can reshape the
> > outside edge to match the tip of a reed and the
> > inside edge to get a uniform thickness with the
> > desired width.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Morgan <frymorgan@>
> > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Mon, March 15, 2010 5:47:03 PM
> > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: How to form the tip
> > rail?
> > > 
> > > � 
> > > 
> > > I do it with a round needle file, then clean it up
> > with progressively finer sandpaper wrapped around a
> > 1/2 round file. After polishing a short swipe of the
> > tip rail on 1200 grit paper will clean up any minor
> > slips onto the tip rail.
> > > 
> > > --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com,
> > "MichaelP" <xmichaelpartlowx@ ...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Recently refaced a Selmer S90 alto mouthpiece.
> > Because I only wanted to take the slightest bit away
> > from the baffle, I used 600grit sandpaper and made a
> > few misses which hacked away at the tip rail. How
> > can I form and shape the tip rail?
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> >
>

It will shorten the facing and the baffle.  To get a feel for how it will play differently, put a reed on 2 mm below the tip and play.

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "MichaelP" <xmichaelpartlowx@...> wrote:
>
> Lastly, what effect does filing the tip have on the mouthpiece. I want to file the tip down by 2mm. 
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, <kymarto123@> wrote:
> >
> > The tip rail is where the end of the reed touches the
> > curved end of the mpc. The side rails should smoothly
> > connect to the tip rail, so that the reed, when it closes,
> > lays down along the side side rails and then closes the
> > mpc shut when the tip hits the tip rail. 
> > 
> > The tip rail therefore should be a thin, flat, crescent at
> > the end of the mpc. Basically the thinner the better, but
> > the most critical part is that the side rails should be
> > even and the tip rail should span them evenly. If one side
> > is higher than the other this can and probably will cause
> > problems.
> > 
> > Toby
> > 
> > --- MichaelP <xmichaelpartlowx@> wrote:
> > 
> > > I'm sorry for being such an amateur, but is the tip
> > > rail an area of added material, or is it a zone with
> > > less material? The tip rail I have is only slightly
> > > mixed into the slight rollover baffle so will taking
> > > away a little of the material at the very tip make
> > > the tip rail? There doesn't seem to be many useful
> > > resources for forming of the tip rail :(
> > > 
> > > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith
> > > Bradbury <kwbradbury@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If your tip rail is now too thin in spots, you
> > > will need to open the tip some to get a wider tip
> > > rail to work with.� Then you can reshape the
> > > outside edge to match the tip of a reed and the
> > > inside edge to get a uniform thickness with the
> > > desired width.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Morgan <frymorgan@>
> > > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Mon, March 15, 2010 5:47:03 PM
> > > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: How to form the tip
> > > rail?
> > > > 
> > > > � 
> > > > 
> > > > I do it with a round needle file, then clean it up
> > > with progressively finer sandpaper wrapped around a
> > > 1/2 round file. After polishing a short swipe of the
> > > tip rail on 1200 grit paper will clean up any minor
> > > slips onto the tip rail.
> > > > 
> > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com,
> > > "MichaelP" <xmichaelpartlowx@ ...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Recently refaced a Selmer S90 alto mouthpiece.
> > > Because I only wanted to take the slightest bit away
> > > from the baffle, I used 600grit sandpaper and made a
> > > few misses which hacked away at the tip rail. How
> > > can I form and shape the tip rail?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> >
>

By filing the tip I assume you mean that you want to make
the tip rail 2 mm more open--IOW the gap between the reed
tip and the tip rail will become 2 mm wider. First of all,
this is a huge amount, and would almost certainly make the
mpc unplayable. I don't know what your present tip opening
is, but consider that 2.5 mm is already very open for an
alto piece, for instance.

However much you want to open the tip, it is imperative
that you maintain a reasonable curve from the break, where
the flat part from the table partway onto the side rails
begins the curve to the tip rail at the end. The shape of
this curve has everything to do with how the mpc plays.
Perhaps Keith or Paul or someone else here can guide you
in this. Normally this is not filed, but sanded, pulling
the mpc across emery paper which is laid on a really flat
surface. The curve is measured with graduated feeler
gauges to make sure that both the curve is correct and
that the two side rails are equal in height for the entire
length of the curve, or "lay". 

If you are going to radically open the mpc you will most
probably end up shortening it somewhat, and you will have
to rebuild the tip rail afterwards, and perhaps do some
work on the baffle just behind the tip rail, to
re-establish the correct proportions and the side walls,
as well as completely redoing the lay itself, since to be
the same length it will then have to start further back.

This is perhaps not so easy for a beginner, as it is very
easy to make the side or tip rails unequal, making the mpc
completely unplayable, and necessitating even deeper
sanding to even it out. At that point you will have a tip
opening that is too wide, and to get this back you will
have to sand down the whole table, and this too is very
easy to screw up if you are not familiar and somewhat used
to the strokes needed to keep things level. 

It is very easy to make the table convex, and this is not
a good thing at all. Also easy to slant the table either
back to front or side to side, also bad.

And if this is a metal mpc you will need a LOT of elbow
grease. It is easy to take material off the side and tip
rail; MUCH harder to bring the table down if you
overshoot.

Consider this carefully if you are a novice and you don't
want to end up throwing the mpc away. If it is something
you can sacrifice to experience then by all means give it
a try.

Toby

--- MichaelP <xmichaelpartlowx@...> wrote:

> Lastly, what effect does filing the tip have on the
> mouthpiece. I want to file the tip down by 2mm. 
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com,
> <kymarto123@...> wrote:
> >
> > The tip rail is where the end of the reed touches
> the
> > curved end of the mpc. The side rails should
> smoothly
> > connect to the tip rail, so that the reed, when it
> closes,
> > lays down along the side side rails and then
> closes the
> > mpc shut when the tip hits the tip rail. 
> > 
> > The tip rail therefore should be a thin, flat,
> crescent at
> > the end of the mpc. Basically the thinner the
> better, but
> > the most critical part is that the side rails
> should be
> > even and the tip rail should span them evenly. If
> one side
> > is higher than the other this can and probably
> will cause
> > problems.
> > 
> > Toby
> > 
> > --- MichaelP <xmichaelpartlowx@...> wrote:
> > 
> > > I'm sorry for being such an amateur, but is the
> tip
> > > rail an area of added material, or is it a zone
> with
> > > less material? The tip rail I have is only
> slightly
> > > mixed into the slight rollover baffle so will
> taking
> > > away a little of the material at the very tip
> make
> > > the tip rail? There doesn't seem to be many
> useful
> > > resources for forming of the tip rail :(
> > > 
> > > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith
> > > Bradbury <kwbradbury@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If your tip rail is now too thin in spots, you
> > > will need to open the tip some to get a wider
> tip
> > > rail to work with.� Then you can reshape
> the
> > > outside edge to match the tip of a reed and the
> > > inside edge to get a uniform thickness with the
> > > desired width.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Morgan <frymorgan@>
> > > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Mon, March 15, 2010 5:47:03 PM
> > > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: How to form the
> tip
> > > rail?
> > > > 
> > > > � 
> > > > 
> > > > I do it with a round needle file, then clean
> it up
> > > with progressively finer sandpaper wrapped
> around a
> > > 1/2 round file. After polishing a short swipe of
> the
> > > tip rail on 1200 grit paper will clean up any
> minor
> > > slips onto the tip rail.
> > > > 
> > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com,
> > > "MichaelP" <xmichaelpartlowx@ ...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Recently refaced a Selmer S90 alto
> mouthpiece.
> > > Because I only wanted to take the slightest bit
> away
> > > from the baffle, I used 600grit sandpaper and
> made a
> > > few misses which hacked away at the tip rail.
> How
> > > can I form and shape the tip rail?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> >
> 
> 
> 

Hal> The tip rail doesn't have to be thin; although, that is usually the 
preference of a jazz player. Some of the metal jazz mouthpieces are so 
bright anyway that I often put a little thicker tip rail on them. A 
thicker tip rail can be just the ticket for a classical saxophonist; 
although, I prefer to get the darker sound by removing baffle. If the 
tip rail is too thin, high notes on the palm keys can have response 
problems.

> > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>, <kymarto123@> wrote:
> > >
> > > The tip rail is where the end of the reed touches the
> > > curved end of the mpc. The side rails should smoothly
> > > connect to the tip rail, so that the reed, when it closes,
> > > lays down along the side side rails and then closes the
> > > mpc shut when the tip hits the tip rail.
> > >
> > > The tip rail therefore should be a thin, flat, crescent at
> > > the end of the mpc. Basically the thinner the better, but
> > > the most critical part is that the side rails should be
> > > even and the tip rail should span them evenly. If one side
> > > is higher than the other this can and probably will cause
> > > problems.
> > >
> > > Toby
> > >
>
>
>