I've measured and played a dozen or two clarinet mouthpieces, and my 
insight is limited to the observation that, for most of the pieces that 
play well for me, there's a smooth curve from the table, a flat section 
in the middle, and a smooth curve to the tip.  Also, as tips approach 
.050", they seem to lose some of the centered, characteristic clarinet 
sound.  I'd like to get better at clarinet facings - I plan to start by 
duplicating good-playing facings on some junkers - but I'd appreciate 
any insight into the facing curve shape.  The flat spot?  Transition 
from curve to flat?  Analysis of the shape of the curve off the table 
and towards the tip?  etc.  I know some of you folks work on a lot of 
clarinet mouthpieces, so any help would be appreciated.  Thanks.

Dan T

Did you review the clarinet facing plots Melin Williams and I posted in the Files - Clarinet section?




________________________________
From: Dan Torosian <dtorosian@...>
To: Mouthpiece Work <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, March 13, 2010 8:18:28 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] clarinet facings

  
I've measured and played a dozen or two clarinet mouthpieces, and my 
insight is limited to the observation that, for most of the pieces that 
play well for me, there's a smooth curve from the table, a flat section 
in the middle, and a smooth curve to the tip. Also, as tips approach 
.050", they seem to lose some of the centered, characteristic clarinet 
sound. I'd like to get better at clarinet facings - I plan to start by 
duplicating good-playing facings on some junkers - but I'd appreciate 
any insight into the facing curve shape. The flat spot? Transition 
from curve to flat? Analysis of the shape of the curve off the table 
and towards the tip? etc. I know some of you folks work on a lot of 
clarinet mouthpieces, so any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Dan T




      

This html message parsed with html2text ---------------------------Yes, they've been very helpful. Most seem to have a flat section between the
.010 and .025 feelers, sometimes extending nearly to the tip. Some seem to
even have a 'concavity' in that area. At the table end, many have a shorter,
tighter curve than a radial plot. Facings generally in the 16-20 mm range.
Most pieces not designed specifically for jazz playing have tip openings in
the .040-.045 range. I'm just wondering if there are any general principles of
clarinet refacing or any insight into the nature of those curves that I'm
missing.  
  
DT  
  
Keith Bradbury wrote:

> Did you review the clarinet facing plots Melin Williams and I posted in the
> Files - Clarinet section?
>
>  
>
>
>  
>
>
> * * *
>
> **From:** Dan Torosian .net>  
>  **To:** Mouthpiece Work yahoogroups.com>  
>  **Sent:** Sat, March 13, 2010 8:18:28 PM  
>  **Subject:** [MouthpieceWork] clarinet facings  
>  
>
>
> I've measured and played a dozen or two clarinet mouthpieces, and my  
>  insight is limited to the observation that, for most of the pieces that  
>  play well for me, there's a smooth curve from the table, a flat section  
>  in the middle, and a smooth curve to the tip. Also, as tips approach  
>  .050", they seem to lose some of the centered, characteristic clarinet  
>  sound. I'd like to get better at clarinet facings - I plan to start by  
>  duplicating good-playing facings on some junkers - but I'd appreciate  
>  any insight into the facing curve shape. The flat spot? Transition  
>  from curve to flat? Analysis of the shape of the curve off the table  
>  and towards the tip? etc. I know some of you folks work on a lot of  
>  clarinet mouthpieces, so any help would be appreciated. Thanks.  
>  
>  Dan T  
>
>
>  
>

Dan, I have added flats to most of my relayed pieces. These usually
require an easing of the curve at, or before the .010" feeler point,
flattening between there and the .035" feeler, usually at the .025"
point (my feelers) then, continuing to the tip with a radial curve or
even another flat.
I have no scientific basis for this, except that it seems a common
practise by some makers.
  As I do not seek a legitimate tone, I avoid long lays and close tips.
I am experimenting with extra short 15mm lays at the moment, like the
old Brilhart * range, though I have tried 16mm, 17mm 18mm and longer.
The longer ones are difficult to control with tips in excess of .050" ,
they loose focus and do not articulate so well, but are good for note
bending, vibrato and blues styles of Jazz. N.O. or even cool west coast
Jazz style, with a hardish reed, but a bit resistant.

To make a flat on such a short lay is tricky. My method is to mark the
'piece on both sides with a pencil, at either side of the desired flat
point location.
Wrap a piece of fine sanding paper round a 5mm dowel, laying this across
both rails simultaneously. Gently rubbing fore and aft, gives a fine
degree of control, without stepping outside the boundary of the pencil
marks.
Another tip. If using Rico Graftonites as blanks, avoid the #7 as it is
difficult to shorten the long lay. The material is very hard and it is
easier to open up a #3
Eddie

This html message parsed with html2text ---------------------------Thanks for the detailed and informative response. That confirms my
observations, and your tip about how to get the flat spot on the curve is
excellent (I use a yellow colored pencil, BTW - very visible). I think I
messed up a couple (not unplayable, but not great either) by overshooting the
boundaries of the flat section. It's curious to me that some pieces have an
actual concavity in the curve (like, beyond flat). Guess I'll measure some
more pieces, pick a couple of candidates and see what I can do with them.  
  
DT  
  
Edward McLean wrote:

> **Dan** , I have added flats to most of my relayed pieces. These usually
> require an easing of the curve at, or before the .010" feeler point,
> flattening between there and the .035" feeler, usually at the .025" point
> (my feelers) then, continuing to the tip with a radial curve or even another
> flat.  
>  I have no scientific basis for this, except that it seems a common practise
> by some makers.  
>  As I do not seek a legitimate tone, I avoid long lays and close tips.  
>  I am experimenting with extra short 15mm lays at the moment, like the old
> Brilhart * range, though I have tried 16mm, 17mm 18mm and longer.  
>  The longer ones are difficult to control with tips in excess of .050" ,
> they loose focus and do not articulate so well, but are good for note
> bending, vibrato and blues styles of Jazz. N.O. or even cool west coast Jazz
> style, with a hardish reed, but a bit resistant.  
>  
>  To make a flat on such a short lay is tricky. My method is to mark the
> 'piece on both sides with a pencil, at either side of the desired flat point
> location.  
>  Wrap a piece of fine sanding paper round a 5mm dowel, laying this across
> both rails simultaneously. Gently rubbing fore and aft, gives a fine degree
> of control, without stepping outside the boundary of the pencil marks.  
>  Another tip. If using Rico Graftonites as blanks, avoid the #7 as it is
> difficult to shorten the long lay. The material is very hard and it is
> easier to open up a #3  
>  **Eddie**  
>

I ask this question because I do not know the answer: what is the advantage
of the "flat spot"? It would seem to me that this would prevent the reed
from smoothly "wrapping" along the facing....I am unfamiliar with this
technique

 

From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Dan Torosian
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 6:21 PM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: clarinet facings

 

  

Thanks for the detailed and informative response.  That confirms my
observations, and your tip about how to get the flat spot on the curve is
excellent (I use a yellow colored pencil, BTW - very visible).  I think I
messed up a couple (not unplayable, but not great either) by overshooting
the boundaries of the flat section.  It's curious to me that some pieces
have an actual concavity in the curve (like, beyond flat). Guess I'll
measure some more pieces, pick a couple of candidates and see what I can do
with them.

DT

Edward McLean wrote: 

  

Dan, I have added flats to most of my relayed pieces. These usually require
an easing of the curve at, or before the .010" feeler point, flattening
between there and the .035" feeler, usually at the .025" point (my feelers)
then, continuing to the tip with a radial curve or even another flat.
I have no scientific basis for this, except that it seems a common practise
by some makers.
 As I do not seek a legitimate tone, I avoid long lays and close tips.
I am experimenting with extra short 15mm lays at the moment, like the old
Brilhart * range, though I have tried 16mm, 17mm 18mm and longer.
The longer ones are difficult to control with tips in excess of .050" , they
loose focus and do not articulate so well, but are good for note bending,
vibrato and blues styles of Jazz. N.O. or even cool west coast Jazz style,
with a hardish reed, but a bit resistant.

To make a flat on such a short lay is tricky. My method is to mark the
'piece on both sides with a pencil, at either side of the desired flat point
location.
Wrap a piece of fine sanding paper round a 5mm dowel, laying this across
both rails simultaneously. Gently rubbing fore and aft, gives a fine degree
of control, without stepping outside the boundary of the pencil marks. 
Another tip. If using Rico Graftonites as blanks, avoid the #7 as it is
difficult to shorten the long lay. The material is very hard and it is
easier to open up a #3
Eddie

You would think so.  But when I measured up my best playing clarinet mouthpieces, they had flat sections.  They have gentle curves before/after a middle flat section.  Take a look at the curves posted in the Files - Clarinet section of the Yahoo site.  




________________________________
From: STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 7:26:19 PM
Subject: RE: [MouthpieceWork] Re: clarinet facings

  
I ask this question because I do not know the answer: what is the advantage of the “flat spot”? It would seem to me that this would prevent the reed from smoothly “wrapping” along the facing……..I am unfamiliar with this technique


      

Dan, I would be interested for someone to post their findings on flats
and concavities on clarinet MPC's.
I don't want to mess up the ones I have done as they play so well.
Previous posts suggest that they produce greater response,
liveliness,buzz etc.
I agree with this and have been able to reduce my tip openings of choice
and still get the desired response. Very reed friendly.
Eddie

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "STEVE GOODSON" <saxgourmet@...> wrote:
>
> I ask this question because I do not know the answer: what is the advantage
> of the "flat spot"? It would seem to me that this would prevent the reed
> from smoothly "wrapping" along the facing....I am unfamiliar with this
> technique
> 
>  
> 
> From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Dan Torosian
> Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 6:21 PM
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: clarinet facings
> 
>  
> 
>   
> 
> Thanks for the detailed and informative response.  That confirms my
> observations, and your tip about how to get the flat spot on the curve is
> excellent (I use a yellow colored pencil, BTW - very visible).  I think I
> messed up a couple (not unplayable, but not great either) by overshooting
> the boundaries of the flat section.  It's curious to me that some pieces
> have an actual concavity in the curve (like, beyond flat). Guess I'll
> measure some more pieces, pick a couple of candidates and see what I can do
> with them.
> 
> DT
> 
> Edward McLean wrote: 
> 
>   
> 
> Dan, I have added flats to most of my relayed pieces. These usually require
> an easing of the curve at, or before the .010" feeler point, flattening
> between there and the .035" feeler, usually at the .025" point (my feelers)
> then, continuing to the tip with a radial curve or even another flat.
> I have no scientific basis for this, except that it seems a common practise
> by some makers.
>  As I do not seek a legitimate tone, I avoid long lays and close tips.
> I am experimenting with extra short 15mm lays at the moment, like the old
> Brilhart * range, though I have tried 16mm, 17mm 18mm and longer.
> The longer ones are difficult to control with tips in excess of .050" , they
> loose focus and do not articulate so well, but are good for note bending,
> vibrato and blues styles of Jazz. N.O. or even cool west coast Jazz style,
> with a hardish reed, but a bit resistant.
> 
> To make a flat on such a short lay is tricky. My method is to mark the
> 'piece on both sides with a pencil, at either side of the desired flat point
> location.
> Wrap a piece of fine sanding paper round a 5mm dowel, laying this across
> both rails simultaneously. Gently rubbing fore and aft, gives a fine degree
> of control, without stepping outside the boundary of the pencil marks. 
> Another tip. If using Rico Graftonites as blanks, avoid the #7 as it is
> difficult to shorten the long lay. The material is very hard and it is
> easier to open up a #3
> Eddie
>
Hi Steve, It seems to add a liveliness to the response which also alters the tone away from the classic woody sound.
Earlier posts say it does not work on a sax MPC. I have not tried this. Eddie.

This html message parsed with html2text ---------------------------Would you characterize the curve-to-flat transition as smooth or abrupt? Is
this even much of a factor? It has to be somewhere between a sharp angle on
the one extreme, and a tangent to the curved section on the other.  
  
Dan  
  
Edward McLean wrote:

> _**Dan**_**, I would be interested for someone to post their findings on
> flats and concavities on clarinet MPC's.  
>  I don't want to mess up the ones I have done as they play so well.  
>  Previous posts suggest that they produce greater response, liveliness,buzz
> etc.  
>  I agree with this and have been able to reduce my tip openings of choice
> and still get the desired response. Very reed friendly.  
>  _Eddie_  
>  **

Keith:

Is there something unique about clarinet facings that makes this flat spot desirable? I do next to nothing with clarinets (other than overhaul them) and am not very familiar with the nuances of clarinet mouthpieces

 

From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith Bradbury
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 6:57 PM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: clarinet facings

 

  

You would think so.  But when I measured up my best playing clarinet mouthpieces, they had flat sections.  They have gentle curves before/after a middle flat section.  Take a look at the curves posted in the Files - Clarinet section of the Yahoo site.  

 

  _____  

From: STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, March 14, 2010 7:26:19 PM
Subject: RE: [MouthpieceWork] Re: clarinet facings

  

I ask this question because I do not know the answer: what is the advantage of the “flat spot”? It would seem to me that this would prevent the reed from smoothly “wrapping” along the facing……..I am unfamiliar with this technique

 

 

 

I do not know.  I think it may have to do with 3 registers based on 12ths.  It adds resistance at just the right spots.




________________________________
From: STEVE GOODSON <saxgourmet@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, March 15, 2010 10:40:53 AM
Subject: RE: [MouthpieceWork] Re: clarinet facings

  
Keith:
Is there something unique about clarinet facings that makes this flat spot desirable? I do next to nothing with clarinets (other than overhaul them) and am not very familiar with the nuances of clarinet mouthpieces


      

Dan,The greatly enlarged curve appearing on the computer screen does
give the impression of an acute bend at the start of the flat section,
but the rather compact dimensions and gentle curve of the clarinet lay
prevent this in reality, I think.
IMO it is more of a subtle change of direction. The flat section is not
as dramatic as it looks on the screen.
It would be more so, if it was a hollow.
Eddie

WRT clarinet facings and flat spots:  go back and reread Erick Brand
refacing guide.  Most of this is dedicated to clarinet facing work,
and he gives (from memory, because I also need to reread it) some info
on this. He talks about a point of resistance, among other things.

I also seem to remember some time ago that someone on this forum made
the point that radial curves work well on sax, and a flatter facing on
clarinet, because of the difference in wave form between the two
instruments.

Cheers,

Geoff Secomb

Geoff Secomb Music
p/f: +61 7 3893 0983
geoff@...
www.geoffsecombmusic.com.au

Inspiring tomorrow's musicians today!