Hi all,

Since the discussion of saxophone acoustics seems to be remaining on the mouthpiece works group, I'll post my query here.

One thing that puzzles me is this: how can a saxophone have tremendous response and focus of tone, amazingly responsive altissimo, yet be very difficult to tune in the palm keys? I had a 1954 Kohlert which, had it not been for the bothersome issue of intonation, would have been a Mark VI killer if there ever was one. Beautiful, complex tone with great focus, and by focus I mean a glassy oneness to the pitch without any haziness or buzz. But once you got into the palm keys, it was like hitting the bottom end of a water slide: the pitch suddenly wanted to bend upward to the extreme. The only way to compensate was to make C2 quite flat, un unacceptable compromise.

My question is: how is that acoustically possible? Haven't you all been saying that these factors are all interrelated? If so, how can these really desirable characteristics coexist with the poor intonation in the palm keys? Is it because the palm keys are "on their own" so to speak?

Thanks, JT

The palm key tone holes are simply in the wrong place....there's a lot of
that going on...this is why you MUST build prototypes and actually play test
them...all the math in the world not always reveal problems which become
evident during actually playing

 

From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of jdtoddjazz
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 9:25 AM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] acoustics of an out-of-tune instrument

 

  

Hi all,

Since the discussion of saxophone acoustics seems to be remaining on the
mouthpiece works group, I'll post my query here.

One thing that puzzles me is this: how can a saxophone have tremendous
response and focus of tone, amazingly responsive altissimo, yet be very
difficult to tune in the palm keys? I had a 1954 Kohlert which, had it not
been for the bothersome issue of intonation, would have been a Mark VI
killer if there ever was one. Beautiful, complex tone with great focus, and
by focus I mean a glassy oneness to the pitch without any haziness or buzz.
But once you got into the palm keys, it was like hitting the bottom end of a
water slide: the pitch suddenly wanted to bend upward to the extreme. The
only way to compensate was to make C2 quite flat, un unacceptable
compromise.

My question is: how is that acoustically possible? Haven't you all been
saying that these factors are all interrelated? If so, how can these really
desirable characteristics coexist with the poor intonation in the palm keys?
Is it because the palm keys are "on their own" so to speak?

Thanks, JT

JT,

Either they are in the wrong place, or the tone hole rims have been filed down drastically.  If too short, extension tubes can be made to fit over what's left of them, bringing them back to original or optimal height.

If they are just in the wrong place,  I can make you 4 wide-based Martin-style tone hole rings, which will enable you to reposition the tone holes for optimal intonation, after you grind the originals down, even with the body tube.  The pad cup arms may need to be shortened  some for proper centering.  It should not affect the rest of the horn adversely.  email me at info@martinmods.com if you want more info.  

Lance




________________________________
From: jdtoddjazz <jdtoddjazz@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 10:25:27 AM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] acoustics of an out-of-tune instrument

  
Hi all,

Since the discussion of saxophone acoustics seems to be remaining on the mouthpiece works group, I'll post my query here.

One thing that puzzles me is this: how can a saxophone have tremendous response and focus of tone, amazingly responsive altissimo, yet be very difficult to tune in the palm keys? I had a 1954 Kohlert which, had it not been for the bothersome issue of intonation, would have been a Mark VI killer if there ever was one. Beautiful, complex tone with great focus, and by focus I mean a glassy oneness to the pitch without any haziness or buzz. But once you got into the palm keys, it was like hitting the bottom end of a water slide: the pitch suddenly wanted to bend upward to the extreme. The only way to compensate was to make C2 quite flat, un unacceptable compromise.

My question is: how is that acoustically possible? Haven't you all been saying that these factors are all interrelated? If so, how can these really desirable characteristics coexist with the poor intonation in the palm keys? Is it because the palm keys are "on their own" so to speak?

Thanks, JT


 


      

Sharp palm keys should be easily fixable with crescents. But acoustically speaking, the palms are the notes which will show a mismatch in the Frs of the mpc/neck. As the acoustic guys point out, there are two conditions that need to be satisfied for the horn to play in tune. The first condition is
 that the volume of the mpc mimic that of the missing conic apex, but for the high-frequency match, the resonant frequency of the mpc (as it is "in situ" sitting in the correct position on the neck) must also mimic that of the missing apex. If the first condition is met and not the second, the
 modes will be in correct alignment for the longer-tube notes but not for the shorter.

So before you do any permanent mods you should definitely check out the horn with various mpcs, to make sure that it is not simply a horn/mpc mismatch. In this regard cresents are perfect, because they are durable but removable. You would be in much bigger trouble if the palms were flat...

Toby

MartinMods <lancelotburt@...> wrote:                                           
JT,

Either they are in the wrong place, or the tone hole rims have been filed down drastically.  If too short, extension tubes can be made to fit over what's left of them, bringing them back to original or optimal height.

If they are just in the wrong place,  I can make you 4 wide-based Martin-style tone hole rings, which will enable you to reposition the tone holes for optimal intonation, after you grind the originals down, even with the body tube.  The pad cup arms may need to be shortened  some for proper
 centering.  It should not affect the rest of the horn adversely.  email me at info@... if you want more info.  

Lance



---------------------------------
From: jdtoddjazz <jdtoddjazz@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 10:25:27 AM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] acoustics of an out-of-tune instrument

                                      Hi all,
 
 Since the discussion of saxophone acoustics seems to be remaining on the mouthpiece works group, I'll post my query here.
 
 One thing that puzzles me is this: how can a saxophone have tremendous response and focus of tone, amazingly responsive altissimo, yet be very difficult to tune in the palm keys? I had a 1954 Kohlert which, had it not been for the bothersome issue of intonation, would have been a Mark VI killer
 if there ever was one. Beautiful, complex tone with great focus, and by focus I mean a glassy oneness to the pitch without any haziness or buzz. But once you got into the palm keys, it was like hitting the bottom end of a water slide: the pitch suddenly wanted to bend upward to the extreme. The
 only way to compensate was to make C2 quite flat, un unacceptable compromise.
 
 My question is: how is that acoustically possible? Haven't you all been saying that these factors are all interrelated? If so, how can these really desirable characteristics coexist with the poor intonation in the palm keys? Is it because the palm keys are "on their own" so to speak?
 
 Thanks, JT
 
 
      
           

  

        
      
                 
                 
 

Toby describes the condition where the mouthpiece chamber is excessively large, rather than an frs issue, which is more or less rare for stock mouthpieces I think, unless you have modified your mouthpiece yourself, or it has a VERY large tip opening;, or your neck has been shortened.  If that were the case, then the upper middle register would be sharp as well.  If your A 440 is good and your C#2 - C#3 octave is accurate, then your mouthpiece is OK, and your tone holes are to blame.

Using crescents will lower the pitch , but at the cost of making the tone holes smaller.  The tone quality may change considerably. If the rest of the horn sounds as gorgeous as you say, it would be a shame to resort to a tonal compromise, just to make the pitch manageable, when a better, tonally and intonationally more complete solution is possible.







________________________________
From: "kymarto123@ybb.ne.jp" <kymarto123@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 9:35:52 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] acoustics of an out-of-tune instrument

  
Sharp palm keys should be easily fixable with crescents. But acoustically speaking, the palms are the notes which will show a mismatch in the Frs of the mpc/neck. As the acoustic guys point out, there are two conditions that need to be satisfied for the horn to play in tune. The first condition is that the volume of the mpc mimic that of the missing conic apex, but for the high-frequency match, the resonant frequency of the mpc (as it is "in situ" sitting in the correct position on the neck) must also mimic that of the missing apex. If the first condition is met and not the second, the modes will be in correct alignment for the longer-tube notes but not for the shorter.

So before you do any permanent mods you should definitely check out the horn with various mpcs, to make sure that it is not simply a horn/mpc mismatch. In this regard cresents are perfect, because they are durable but removable. You would be in much bigger trouble if the palms were flat...

Toby

MartinMods <lancelotburt@ yahoo.com> wrote:
  
>JT,
>
>>Either they are in the wrong place, or the tone hole rims have been filed down drastically.  If too short, extension tubes can be made to fit over what's left of them, bringing them back to original or optimal height.
>
>>If they are just in the wrong place,  I can make you 4 wide-based Martin-style tone hole rings, which will enable you to reposition the tone holes for optimal intonation, after you grind the originals down, even with the body tube.  The pad cup arms may need to be shortened  some
> for proper centering.  It should not affect the rest of the horn adversely.  email me at info@martinmods. com if you want more info.  
>
>>Lance
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: jdtoddjazz <jdtoddjazz@yahoo. com>
>To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
>Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 10:25:27 AM
>Subject: [MouthpieceWork] acoustics of an out-of-tune instrument
>
>  
>Hi all,
>
>> Since the discussion of saxophone acoustics seems to be remaining on the mouthpiece works group, I'll post my query here.
>
>> One thing that puzzles me is this: how can a saxophone have tremendous response and focus of tone, amazingly responsive altissimo, yet be very difficult to tune in the palm keys? I had a 1954 Kohlert which, had it not been for the bothersome issue of intonation, would have been a Mark VI killer
> if there ever was one. Beautiful, complex tone with great focus, and by focus I mean a glassy oneness to the pitch without any haziness or buzz. But once you got into the palm keys, it was like hitting the bottom end of a water slide: the pitch suddenly wanted to bend upward to the extreme. The
> only way to compensate was to make C2 quite flat, un unacceptable compromise.
>
>> My question is: how is that acoustically possible? Haven't you all been saying that these factors are all interrelated? If so, how can these really desirable characteristics coexist with the poor intonation in the palm keys? Is it because the palm keys are "on their own" so to speak?
>
>> Thanks, JT
>
>
>

 
 


      

Toby,

I was using a Link Tone Edge on it. I tried the stock Martin-style mouthpiece on it as well, with no appreciable difference in intonation at that point. I was assuming that the large chamber piece would be suitable for a horn of that era. JT

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, <kymarto123@...> wrote:
>
> Sharp palm keys should be easily fixable with crescents. But acoustically speaking, the palms are the notes which will show a mismatch in the Frs of the mpc/neck. As the acoustic guys point out, there are two conditions that need to be satisfied for the horn to play in tune. The first condition is
>  that the volume of the mpc mimic that of the missing conic apex, but for the high-frequency match, the resonant frequency of the mpc (as it is "in situ" sitting in the correct position on the neck) must also mimic that of the missing apex. If the first condition is met and not the second, the
>  modes will be in correct alignment for the longer-tube notes but not for the shorter.
> 
> So before you do any permanent mods you should definitely check out the horn with various mpcs, to make sure that it is not simply a horn/mpc mismatch. In this regard cresents are perfect, because they are durable but removable. You would be in much bigger trouble if the palms were flat...
> 
> Toby
> 
> MartinMods <lancelotburt@...> wrote:                                           
> JT,
> 
> Either they are in the wrong place, or the tone hole rims have been filed down drastically.  If too short, extension tubes can be made to fit over what's left of them, bringing them back to original or optimal height.
> 
> If they are just in the wrong place,  I can make you 4 wide-based Martin-style tone hole rings, which will enable you to reposition the tone holes for optimal intonation, after you grind the originals down, even with the body tube.  The pad cup arms may need to be shortened  some for proper
>  centering.  It should not affect the rest of the horn adversely.  email me at info@... if you want more info.  
> 
> Lance
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> From: jdtoddjazz <jdtoddjazz@...>
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 10:25:27 AM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] acoustics of an out-of-tune instrument
> 
>                                       Hi all,
>  
>  Since the discussion of saxophone acoustics seems to be remaining on the mouthpiece works group, I'll post my query here.
>  
>  One thing that puzzles me is this: how can a saxophone have tremendous response and focus of tone, amazingly responsive altissimo, yet be very difficult to tune in the palm keys? I had a 1954 Kohlert which, had it not been for the bothersome issue of intonation, would have been a Mark VI killer
>  if there ever was one. Beautiful, complex tone with great focus, and by focus I mean a glassy oneness to the pitch without any haziness or buzz. But once you got into the palm keys, it was like hitting the bottom end of a water slide: the pitch suddenly wanted to bend upward to the extreme. The
>  only way to compensate was to make C2 quite flat, un unacceptable compromise.
>  
>  My question is: how is that acoustically possible? Haven't you all been saying that these factors are all interrelated? If so, how can these really desirable characteristics coexist with the poor intonation in the palm keys? Is it because the palm keys are "on their own" so to speak?
>  
>  Thanks, JT
>

Lance, 

I saw no evidence of filing. BTW, this horn looked very much to be based on a Martin design: the low B/Bb keyguard (left side of bell) looked very much like the "the Martin" horns, and the tone holes were the soldered curved chimneys. I noticed that when you would flick the neck tenon with your finger, it would give off this really pleasant ring. A feature of good brass? JT




--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@...> wrote:
>
> JT,
> 
> Either they are in the wrong place, or the tone hole rims have been filed down drastically.  If too short, extension tubes can be made to fit over what's left of them, bringing them back to original or optimal height.
> 
> If they are just in the wrong place,  I can make you 4 wide-based Martin-style tone hole rings, which will enable you to reposition the tone holes for optimal intonation, after you grind the originals down, even with the body tube.  The pad cup arms may need to be shortened  some for proper centering.  It should not affect the rest of the horn adversely.  email me at info@... if you want more info.  
> 
> Lance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: jdtoddjazz <jdtoddjazz@...>
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 10:25:27 AM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] acoustics of an out-of-tune instrument
> 
>   
> Hi all,
> 
> Since the discussion of saxophone acoustics seems to be remaining on the mouthpiece works group, I'll post my query here.
> 
> One thing that puzzles me is this: how can a saxophone have tremendous response and focus of tone, amazingly responsive altissimo, yet be very difficult to tune in the palm keys? I had a 1954 Kohlert which, had it not been for the bothersome issue of intonation, would have been a Mark VI killer if there ever was one. Beautiful, complex tone with great focus, and by focus I mean a glassy oneness to the pitch without any haziness or buzz. But once you got into the palm keys, it was like hitting the bottom end of a water slide: the pitch suddenly wanted to bend upward to the extreme. The only way to compensate was to make C2 quite flat, un unacceptable compromise.
> 
> My question is: how is that acoustically possible? Haven't you all been saying that these factors are all interrelated? If so, how can these really desirable characteristics coexist with the poor intonation in the palm keys? Is it because the palm keys are "on their own" so to speak?
> 
> Thanks, JT
>

The ring was due to the thinness of the brass tenon.  




________________________________
From: jdtoddjazz <jdtoddjazz@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, February 5, 2010 9:37:52 AM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: acoustics of an out-of-tune instrument

  
Lance, 

I saw no evidence of filing. BTW, this horn looked very much to be based on a Martin design: the low B/Bb keyguard (left side of bell) looked very much like the "the Martin" horns, and the tone holes were the soldered curved chimneys. I noticed that when you would flick the neck tenon with your finger, it would give off this really pleasant ring. A feature of good brass? JT

--- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@ ...> wrote:
>
> JT,
> 
> Either they are in the wrong place, or the tone hole rims have been filed down drastically.  If too short, extension tubes can be made to fit over what's left of them, bringing them back to original or optimal height.
> 
> If they are just in the wrong place,  I can make you 4 wide-based Martin-style tone hole rings, which will enable you to reposition the tone holes for optimal intonation, after you grind the originals down, even with the body tube.  The pad cup arms may need to be shortened  some for proper centering.  It should not affect the rest of the horn adversely.  email me at info@... if you want more info. 
> 
> Lance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: jdtoddjazz <jdtoddjazz@ ...>
> To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 10:25:27 AM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] acoustics of an out-of-tune instrument
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Since the discussion of saxophone acoustics seems to be remaining on the mouthpiece works group, I'll post my query here.
> 
> One thing that puzzles me is this: how can a saxophone have tremendous response and focus of tone, amazingly responsive altissimo, yet be very difficult to tune in the palm keys? I had a 1954 Kohlert which, had it not been for the bothersome issue of intonation, would have been a Mark VI killer if there ever was one. Beautiful, complex tone with great focus, and by focus I mean a glassy oneness to the pitch without any haziness or buzz. But once you got into the palm keys, it was like hitting the bottom end of a water slide: the pitch suddenly wanted to bend upward to the extreme. The only way to compensate was to make C2 quite flat, un unacceptable compromise.
> 
> My question is: how is that acoustically possible? Haven't you all been saying that these factors are all interrelated? If so, how can these really desirable characteristics coexist with the poor intonation in the palm keys? Is it because the palm keys are "on their own" so to speak?
> 
> Thanks, JT
>


 


      

Martin frequently made "stencils" for other companies, and almost no one else did soldered tone holes, so it is likely to be Martin-made.  Is the neck original?  That might throw things off.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "jdtoddjazz" 
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 14:37:52 
To: 
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: acoustics of an out-of-tune instrument

Lance, 

I saw no evidence of filing. BTW, this horn looked very much to be based on a Martin design: the low B/Bb keyguard (left side of bell) looked very much like the "the Martin" horns, and the tone holes were the soldered curved chimneys. I noticed that when you would flick the neck tenon with your finger, it would give off this really pleasant ring. A feature of good brass? JT




--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, MartinMods  wrote:
>
> JT,
> 
> Either they are in the wrong place, or the tone hole rims have been filed down drastically.  If too short, extension tubes can be made to fit over what's left of them, bringing them back to original or optimal height.
> 
> If they are just in the wrong place,  I can make you 4 wide-based Martin-style tone hole rings, which will enable you to reposition the tone holes for optimal intonation, after you grind the originals down, even with the body tube.  The pad cup arms may need to be shortened  some for proper centering.  It should not affect the rest of the horn adversely.  email me at info@... if you want more info.  
> 
> Lance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: jdtoddjazz 
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 10:25:27 AM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] acoustics of an out-of-tune instrument
> 
>   
> Hi all,
> 
> Since the discussion of saxophone acoustics seems to be remaining on the mouthpiece works group, I'll post my query here.
> 
> One thing that puzzles me is this: how can a saxophone have tremendous response and focus of tone, amazingly responsive altissimo, yet be very difficult to tune in the palm keys? I had a 1954 Kohlert which, had it not been for the bothersome issue of intonation, would have been a Mark VI killer if there ever was one. Beautiful, complex tone with great focus, and by focus I mean a glassy oneness to the pitch without any haziness or buzz. But once you got into the palm keys, it was like hitting the bottom end of a water slide: the pitch suddenly wanted to bend upward to the extreme. The only way to compensate was to make C2 quite flat, un unacceptable compromise.
> 
> My question is: how is that acoustically possible? Haven't you all been saying that these factors are all interrelated? If so, how can these really desirable characteristics coexist with the poor intonation in the palm keys? Is it because the palm keys are "on their own" so to speak?
> 
> Thanks, JT
>




------------------------------------

Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com

Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.

To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroupsYahoo! Groups Links

Neck was original, with matching serial number. But why would Kohlert have horns stenciled by Martin? JT

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, zoot51@... wrote:
>
> Martin frequently made "stencils" for other companies, and almost no one else did soldered tone holes, so it is likely to be Martin-made.  Is the neck original?  That might throw things off.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "jdtoddjazz" <jdtoddjazz@...>
> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 14:37:52 
> To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: acoustics of an out-of-tune instrument
> 
> Lance, 
> 
> I saw no evidence of filing. BTW, this horn looked very much to be based on a Martin design: the low B/Bb keyguard (left side of bell) looked very much like the "the Martin" horns, and the tone holes were the soldered curved chimneys. I noticed that when you would flick the neck tenon with your finger, it would give off this really pleasant ring. A feature of good brass? JT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@> wrote:
> >
> > JT,
> > 
> > Either they are in the wrong place, or the tone hole rims have been filed down drastically.  If too short, extension tubes can be made to fit over what's left of them, bringing them back to original or optimal height.
> > 
> > If they are just in the wrong place,  I can make you 4 wide-based Martin-style tone hole rings, which will enable you to reposition the tone holes for optimal intonation, after you grind the originals down, even with the body tube.  The pad cup arms may need to be shortened  some for proper centering.  It should not affect the rest of the horn adversely.  email me at info@ if you want more info.  
> > 
> > Lance
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > From: jdtoddjazz <jdtoddjazz@>
> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 10:25:27 AM
> > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] acoustics of an out-of-tune instrument
> > 
> >   
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > Since the discussion of saxophone acoustics seems to be remaining on the mouthpiece works group, I'll post my query here.
> > 
> > One thing that puzzles me is this: how can a saxophone have tremendous response and focus of tone, amazingly responsive altissimo, yet be very difficult to tune in the palm keys? I had a 1954 Kohlert which, had it not been for the bothersome issue of intonation, would have been a Mark VI killer if there ever was one. Beautiful, complex tone with great focus, and by focus I mean a glassy oneness to the pitch without any haziness or buzz. But once you got into the palm keys, it was like hitting the bottom end of a water slide: the pitch suddenly wanted to bend upward to the extreme. The only way to compensate was to make C2 quite flat, un unacceptable compromise.
> > 
> > My question is: how is that acoustically possible? Haven't you all been saying that these factors are all interrelated? If so, how can these really desirable characteristics coexist with the poor intonation in the palm keys? Is it because the palm keys are "on their own" so to speak?
> > 
> > Thanks, JT
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
> 
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroupsYahoo! Groups Links
>

I must have accidentally deleted jdtoddjazz's response to this, but I had intended to reply.  A Martin stencil is only a possiblility, without a picture to go by.  It could also be a copy.  There are Italian-made saxes out there that mimic Conns to a large degree.

Bill Hausmann

If you have to mic a saxophone, the rest of the band is TOO LOUD!


--- On Fri, 2/5/10, zoot51@... <zoot51@...> wrote:

> From: zoot51@... <zoot51@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: acoustics of an out-of-tune instrument
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, February 5, 2010, 10:34 AM
> Martin frequently made "stencils" for
> other companies, and almost no one else did soldered tone
> holes, so it is likely to be Martin-made.  Is the neck
> original?  That might throw things off.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "jdtoddjazz" <jdtoddjazz@...>
> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 14:37:52 
> To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: acoustics of an out-of-tune
> instrument
> 
> Lance, 
> 
> I saw no evidence of filing. BTW, this horn looked very
> much to be based on a Martin design: the low B/Bb keyguard
> (left side of bell) looked very much like the "the Martin"
> horns, and the tone holes were the soldered curved chimneys.
> I noticed that when you would flick the neck tenon with your
> finger, it would give off this really pleasant ring. A
> feature of good brass? JT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com,
> MartinMods <lancelotburt@...> wrote:
> >
> > JT,
> > 
> > Either they are in the wrong place, or the tone hole
> rims have been filed down drastically.  If too short,
> extension tubes can be made to fit over what's left of them,
> bringing them back to original or optimal height.
> > 
> > If they are just in the wrong place,  I can make
> you 4 wide-based Martin-style tone hole rings, which will
> enable you to reposition the tone holes for optimal
> intonation, after you grind the originals down, even with
> the body tube.  The pad cup arms may need to be
> shortened  some for proper centering.  It should
> not affect the rest of the horn adversely.  email me at
> info@... if you want more info.  
> > 
> > Lance
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > From: jdtoddjazz <jdtoddjazz@...>
> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 10:25:27 AM
> > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] acoustics of an out-of-tune
> instrument
> > 
> >   
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > Since the discussion of saxophone acoustics seems to
> be remaining on the mouthpiece works group, I'll post my
> query here.
> > 
> > One thing that puzzles me is this: how can a saxophone
> have tremendous response and focus of tone, amazingly
> responsive altissimo, yet be very difficult to tune in the
> palm keys? I had a 1954 Kohlert which, had it not been for
> the bothersome issue of intonation, would have been a Mark
> VI killer if there ever was one. Beautiful, complex tone
> with great focus, and by focus I mean a glassy oneness to
> the pitch without any haziness or buzz. But once you got
> into the palm keys, it was like hitting the bottom end of a
> water slide: the pitch suddenly wanted to bend upward to the
> extreme. The only way to compensate was to make C2 quite
> flat, un unacceptable compromise.
> > 
> > My question is: how is that acoustically possible?
> Haven't you all been saying that these factors are all
> interrelated? If so, how can these really desirable
> characteristics coexist with the poor intonation in the palm
> keys? Is it because the palm keys are "on their own" so to
> speak?
> > 
> > Thanks, JT
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
> Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
> Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
> 
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroupsYahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>     MouthpieceWork-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> 
> 
> 


      

It looks like Kohlert always made their own instruments.  There is a web
page detailing the history of the Kohlerts.

 http://www.idrs.org/publications/DR/DR13.1/DR13.1.Lein.Kohlert.html

There were some stencils supposedly made by Kohlert, for Boosey & Hawkes for
example.

I looked into this because I came into posession of a Kohlert Winnenden
alto, and was curious about it.  Even with the original leaking pads, it
seems to be a strong-playing resonant horn. That said, I haven't played it a
lot or checked the intonation. Tenor Kohlerts are going on ebay for
$700-800, and good things are said about them.

> From: Bill Hausmann <zoot51@...>
> Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:07:31 -0800 (PST)
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: acoustics of an out-of-tune instrument
> 
> 
>  
> I must have accidentally deleted jdtoddjazz's response to this, but I had
> intended to reply.  A Martin stencil is only a possiblility, without a picture
> to go by.  It could also be a copy.  There are Italian-made saxes out there
> that mimic Conns to a large degree.
> 
> Bill Hausmann
> 
> If you have to mic a saxophone, the rest of the band is TOO LOUD!
> 
> --- On Fri, 2/5/10, zoot51@... <mailto:zoot51%40yahoo.com>
> <zoot51@... <mailto:zoot51%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
> 
>> > From: zoot51@... <mailto:zoot51%40yahoo.com>  <zoot51@yahoo.com
>> <mailto:zoot51%40yahoo.com> >
>> > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: acoustics of an out-of-tune instrument
>> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
>> > Date: Friday, February 5, 2010, 10:34 AM
>> > Martin frequently made "stencils" for
>> > other companies, and almost no one else did soldered tone
>> > holes, so it is likely to be Martin-made.  Is the neck
>> > original?  That might throw things off.
>> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>> > 
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: "jdtoddjazz" <jdtoddjazz@... <mailto:jdtoddjazz%40yahoo.com> >
>> > Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 14:37:52
>> > To: <MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com> >
>> > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: acoustics of an out-of-tune
>> > instrument
>> > 
>> > Lance, 
>> > 
>> > I saw no evidence of filing. BTW, this horn looked very
>> > much to be based on a Martin design: the low B/Bb keyguard
>> > (left side of bell) looked very much like the "the Martin"
>> > horns, and the tone holes were the soldered curved chimneys.
>> > I noticed that when you would flick the neck tenon with your
>> > finger, it would give off this really pleasant ring. A
>> > feature of good brass? JT
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com> ,
>> > MartinMods <lancelotburt@...> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > JT,
>>> > > 
>>> > > Either they are in the wrong place, or the tone hole
>> > rims have been filed down drastically.  If too short,
>> > extension tubes can be made to fit over what's left of them,
>> > bringing them back to original or optimal height.
>>> > > 
>>> > > If they are just in the wrong place,  I can make
>> > you 4 wide-based Martin-style tone hole rings, which will
>> > enable you to reposition the tone holes for optimal
>> > intonation, after you grind the originals down, even with
>> > the body tube.  The pad cup arms may need to be
>> > shortened  some for proper centering.  It should
>> > not affect the rest of the horn adversely.  email me at
>> > info@... if you want more info. 
>>> > > 
>>> > > Lance
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > 
>>> > > ________________________________
>>> > > From: jdtoddjazz <jdtoddjazz@...>
>>> > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>>> <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> > > Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 10:25:27 AM
>>> > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] acoustics of an out-of-tune
>> > instrument
>>> > > 
>>> > >   
>>> > > Hi all,
>>> > > 
>>> > > Since the discussion of saxophone acoustics seems to
>> > be remaining on the mouthpiece works group, I'll post my
>> > query here.
>>> > > 
>>> > > One thing that puzzles me is this: how can a saxophone
>> > have tremendous response and focus of tone, amazingly
>> > responsive altissimo, yet be very difficult to tune in the
>> > palm keys? I had a 1954 Kohlert which, had it not been for
>> > the bothersome issue of intonation, would have been a Mark
>> > VI killer if there ever was one. Beautiful, complex tone
>> > with great focus, and by focus I mean a glassy oneness to
>> > the pitch without any haziness or buzz. But once you got
>> > into the palm keys, it was like hitting the bottom end of a
>> > water slide: the pitch suddenly wanted to bend upward to the
>> > extreme. The only way to compensate was to make C2 quite
>> > flat, un unacceptable compromise.
>>> > > 
>>> > > My question is: how is that acoustically possible?
>> > Haven't you all been saying that these factors are all
>> > interrelated? If so, how can these really desirable
>> > characteristics coexist with the poor intonation in the palm
>> > keys? Is it because the palm keys are "on their own" so to
>> > speak?
>>> > > 
>>> > > Thanks, JT
>>> > >
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > ------------------------------------
>> > 
>> > Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
>> > 
>> > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
>> > Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>> > 
>> > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroupsYahoo!
>> Groups Links
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > ------------------------------------
>> > 
>> > Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
>> > 
>> > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
>> > Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>> > 
>> > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroupsYahoo!
>> Groups Links
>> > 
>> > 
>> >     MouthpieceWork-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:MouthpieceWork-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com>
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
> 
> 
> 
>