After almost a year of making and testing prototypes, I have completed a
saxophone artificial embouchure device. The intended purpose of this
apparatus is to conduct acoustic experiments to see what effect
introducing different variables to the instrument will have on the
harmonic spectrum and the perceived sound. It is hoped that by removing
the "human element" that one will be able to better isolate and measure
the effects that different changes make.

Some of the questions I want to pursue include:

-Does removing the lacquer from a saxophone make a difference in the
harmonic spectrum?
-Does adding weights to the neck above the tenon make a measurable
difference in the sound?
-What effect do resonators have on the sound, and what measurable
difference does the material make?

If anyone has any other suggestions, I would be happy to add them to my
list if possible.

Photos of the device can be seen at this location:
http://s162.photobucket.com/albums/t...%20Embouchure/
<http://s162.photobucket.com/albums/t251/jbtsax/Artificial%20Embouchure/\
>

John

After looking at your pictures, I'm impressed!

I would like to see some kind of test for repeatability as part of any trial.  Tear it down and set it up again a few times and see how the results change (if at all).  Then you can use this to determine how significant your other trials are.  




________________________________
From: John <jtalcott47@msn.com>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, January 24, 2010 10:16:40 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] ARTIFICIAL EMBOUCHURE APPARATUS

  
After almost a year of making and testing prototypes, I have completed a saxophone artificial embouchure device. The intended purpose of this apparatus is to conduct acoustic experiments to see what effect introducing different variables to the instrument will have on the harmonic spectrum and the perceived sound. It is hoped that by removing the "human element" that one will be able to better isolate and measure the effects that different changes make.

Some of the questions I want to pursue include:

-Does removing the lacquer from a saxophone make a difference in the harmonic spectrum?
-Does adding weights to the neck above the tenon make a measurable difference in the sound?
-What effect do resonators have on the sound, and what measurable difference does the material make?

If anyone has any other suggestions, I would be happy to add them to my list if possible.

Photos of the device can be seen at this location: http://s162. photobucket. com/albums/ t...%20Embouchur e/

John




      

Thanks Keith.  That is exactly the methodology that I will incorporate.  Regulating the pressure will be essential.  The main reason I attached the adjustable "lip" to the mouthpiece itself via the ligature rather than the container was to be sure the same position is achieved on each trial.  I may find that an air flow gauge is necessary as well to achieve accuracy in repeated tests.  I will keep you posted.

John



--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
>
> After looking at your pictures, I'm impressed!
> 
> I would like to see some kind of test for repeatability as part of any trial.  Tear it down and set it up again a few times and see how the results change (if at all).  Then you can use this to determine how significant your other trials are.  
> 

>

Nice John.   Can we have a naming contest?




________________________________
From: John <jtalcott47@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, January 24, 2010 11:50:16 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: ARTIFICIAL EMBOUCHURE APPARATUS

  
Thanks Keith.  That is exactly the methodology that I will incorporate.  Regulating the pressure will be essential.  The main reason I attached the adjustable "lip" to the mouthpiece itself via the ligature rather than the container was to be sure the same position is achieved on each trial.  I may find that an air flow gauge is necessary as well to achieve accuracy in repeated tests.  I will keep you posted.

John

--- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@ ...> wrote:
>
> After looking at your pictures, I'm impressed!
> 
> I would like to see some kind of test for repeatability as part of any trial.  Tear it down and set it up again a few times and see how the results change (if at all).  Then you can use this to determine how significant your other trials are.  
> 

>


 


      

I know a bit about air and pressure guages if you need some help/ideas.  Contact me via Email.




________________________________
From: John <jtalcott47@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, January 24, 2010 11:50:16 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: ARTIFICIAL EMBOUCHURE APPARATUS

  
Thanks Keith. That is exactly the methodology that I will incorporate. Regulating the pressure will be essential. The main reason I attached the adjustable "lip" to the mouthpiece itself via the ligature rather than the container was to be sure the same position is achieved on each trial. I may find that an air flow gauge is necessary as well to achieve accuracy in repeated tests. I will keep you posted.

John

--- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@ ...> wrote:
>
> After looking at your pictures, I'm impressed!
> 
> I would like to see some kind of test for repeatability as part of any trial.  Tear it down and set it up again a few times and see how the results change (if at all).  Then you can use this to determine how significant your other trials are.  
> 

>





      

Sure.  Unfortunately the best one that comes to mind has already been
taken  [:)]

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
wrote:
>
> Nice John.   Can we have a naming contest?
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@...>
wrote:
>
> Nice John.   Can we have a naming contest?

Deep Throat.
Tony F.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: John 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 3:34 AM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: ARTIFICIAL EMBOUCHURE APPARATUS


    
  Sure.  Unfortunately the best one that comes to mind has already been taken 

  --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@...> wrote:
  >
  > Nice John.   Can we have a naming contest?
  --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@...> wrote:
  >
  > Nice John. Can we have a naming contest?



  

I bought one of these at Weiner music. I've seen Paul's recommendations, and
read good comments elsewhere on the net, and was interested in trying one.

For the price, a very easy-playing soprano piece, but I find it has a
"narrow" sound - it seems to lack more fundamentals than some other
mouthpieces I have, not quite as full a tone.

OTOH, it certainly plays more easily up into the left-hand side-keys than
any other soprano mouthpiece I have right now.   This is a quality others
reported elsewhere, and I also find it true.

So my question, which may not be answerable except by experimentation, but
maybe someone has already tried it:

In addition to its optional spoiler, this mouthpiece features a pretty
obvious rollover baffle near the tip.  I'm wondering if taking down the
rollover baffle a bit will give it a fuller sound without losing that nice
upper register response (which I'm guessing/hoping has more to do with a
very successful facing curve). Any opinions?

I probably will try copying the facing curve onto another piece before
messing with the Runyon.

Barry 

Hi, Barry!  Glad it is playing well for you.

As far as tone, remember that it is not how it sounds to you, but how others hear it.  Try recording from a few feet away and see what it sounds like as compared to a few other mouthpieces.  I've had some that really fooled me.  

I was hearing an "edge" to the tone in one mouthpiece that others simply did not hear.  And another mouthpiece I thought was more "mellow" sounding was not to others.

Be careful about taking off too much of the "rollover" baffle.

Also, some look at the external size of that mouthpiece and assume it has a small chamber.  It does not. Compare it to some others and the throat is larger than some, smaller than others.  It is very much a medium chamber.

An interesting mouthpiece that will cover a lot of uses.  I think the most outstanding feature is its good intonation and great high end response with most instruments.

While it might not be the "ultimate" soprano mouthpiece, it is certainly one to play while looking for whatever it is that might suit you best.

Paul

From what you described, I think you can remove some or all of the roll-over and be pleased with the sound.  I think a Custom is a great design for a contemporary sop sax sound.  I prefer a squeeze chamber design (Vandoren S25) for most of my playing but a Custom is great for wailing over a loud group.

My measurements of chamber volumes I did years ago indicate that the Custom had the smallest volume of all that I measured.  Even without the Spoiler.  But I measured to the end of the shank.  I think the Custom does not push in as far when tuned on the neck so plays with a more medium chamber volume.


      

In addition to the take down set up repeatability test Mojo suggested, I have another test of usefullness. What are the tone and tuning in different registers complared to a human player?

If they are not significantly different from live, you may have "Busted" the myths of voicing notes, air velocity and tongue placement in sax playing. 

If it does not sound or work as well in different registers, what is the volume of the chamber compared to an average human oral cavity when playing? (I'd guess it needs to be smaller.) Then can it be remedied with a closer to human volume and more closely shaped fake tongue and roof of the mouth to encourage a similar air velocity entering the mouthpiece? WIll it have to be changed forlow to high notes, too?

You do not want to make this too good. Youtube already has videos of Toyota muscian robots!

Here is a 12th grade science fair project at the start. He gets it better, but listen to the tuning in the later songs he posts as ROBOT SAXOPHONE ARTIST.
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6h_enH4bxo&feature=PlayList&p=A946526E85250DF3&index=39

Grover Washington, Jr. played the Runyon Custom.  So, there is one example of the tone of this mouthpiece.  Ernie Watts also plays the Custom Soprano.

Paul C.

Thanks for the advice, Paul and Keith.

The more I play it, the more I like it.

So now another question: what Runyon mouthpiece is similar on tenor to a
Ponzol M1 or M2? 

Barry


> 
> Grover Washington, Jr. played the Runyon Custom.  So, there is one example of
> the tone of this mouthpiece.  Ernie Watts also plays the Custom Soprano.
> 
> Paul C.
> 
> 

I find the M1 darker than a metal Quantum.  So a Runyon Jaguar might compare well in sound to a Ponzol M1.  The M2 is more like a Smoothbore. 




________________________________
From: Barry Levine <barrylevine@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, January 27, 2010 5:34:40 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Runyon Custom Soprano questions

  
Thanks for the advice, Paul and Keith.

The more I play it, the more I like it.

So now another question: what Runyon mouthpiece is similar on tenor to a
Ponzol M1 or M2? 

Barry

> 
> Grover Washington, Jr. played the Runyon Custom. So, there is one example of
> the tone of this mouthpiece. Ernie Watts also plays the Custom Soprano.
> 
> Paul C.
> 
> 





      

A little interesting story about the Runyon Custom...

Lilly (at Runyon) called Santy Runyon one day, "Grover just ordered some more mouthpieces."  Every few months he call in and get some more soprano sax mouthpieces.  

Santy called him, "Grover, what's the problem?  I don't see how you can be breaking so many mouthpieces.  We make them better than that.  What's going on?"

Turns out that Grover would keep several spares in his case.  When a fan or student would come up to him and ask what mouthpiece he used, talk sax technique with him, he'd reach in his case and give the saxophonist one of his mouthpieces.  Can you imagine the kick that would give to a student, "Grove Washington, Jr. gave me one of HIS mouthpieces!"  I'll bet the student would practice many hours a day after that.

Santy told Lilly, "Send Grover however many he wants."

Paul C.

Nice story... I could say "smart marketing", which it was, but I prefer also
to think, gee, nice guys, both of them.

Barry

> From: "tenorman1952" <tenorman1952@...>
> Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 05:03:15 -0000
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Runyon Custom Soprano questions
> 
> 
>  
> 
> A little interesting story about the Runyon Custom...
> 
> Lilly (at Runyon) called Santy Runyon one day, "Grover just ordered some more
> mouthpieces."  Every few months he call in and get some more soprano sax
> mouthpieces.  
> 
> Santy called him, "Grover, what's the problem?  I don't see how you can be
> breaking so many mouthpieces.  We make them better than that.  What's going
> on?"
> 
> Turns out that Grover would keep several spares in his case.  When a fan or
> student would come up to him and ask what mouthpiece he used, talk sax
> technique with him, he'd reach in his case and give the saxophonist one of his
> mouthpieces.  Can you imagine the kick that would give to a student, "Grove
> Washington, Jr. gave me one of HIS mouthpieces!"  I'll bet the student would
> practice many hours a day after that.
> 
> Santy told Lilly, "Send Grover however many he wants."
> 
> Paul C.
> 
> 
> 
> 

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Barry Levine <barrylevine@...> wrote:
>
> Nice story... I could say "smart marketing", which it was, but I prefer also
> to think, gee, nice guys, both of them.
> 
> Barry

Also, I had found out from Santy, Grover Washington, Jr. still gave lessons, did school clinics, etc.

Paul