I am looking for a facing and mouthpiece that plays sharp and is easier to get a good tone in all registers.

I know some older clarinetist that, as they age, are having trouble keeping pitch up, even though they practice and play a lot. When one plays, we wonder where the goose is! We remind him to firm up the chops etc. each time to get it better for part of the rehearsal. I'd rather not tell these members it is time to sit in the audience. They have lived for the groups for many years. Can anyone help get pitch on track and tone back to blendable? We can use a shorter barrel, but that will not help the throat tones as much as the notes that use the entire length of the instrument. In short, if we go too short, the tuning is compromised. Such a design would also be useful to doublers that use bottom lip out chops on their saxophones. 

Thank you for your help!
E v e r e t t  F i d l e r 

Paul Coats has the answer! Really....he's done severalmouthpieces for me and has been right on target every time!

Sonus Instrument Repair

Tom Tapscott

802 Glendale Dr

Clarksville, TN 37043

931-551-9411

sonusrepair@yahoo.com

--- On Sat, 1/16/10, fidlershorns <grassinospam@...> wrote:

From: fidlershorns <grassinospam@...>
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Need clarinet mouthpiece that plays sharp
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, January 16, 2010, 11:22 AM







 



  


    
      
      
      I am looking for a facing and mouthpiece that plays sharp and is easier to get a good tone in all registers.



I know some older clarinetist that, as they age, are having trouble keeping pitch up, even though they practice and play a lot. When one plays, we wonder where the goose is! We remind him to firm up the chops etc. each time to get it better for part of the rehearsal. I'd rather not tell these members it is time to sit in the audience. They have lived for the groups for many years. Can anyone help get pitch on track and tone back to blendable? We can use a shorter barrel, but that will not help the throat tones as much as the notes that use the entire length of the instrument. In short, if we go too short, the tuning is compromised. Such a design would also be useful to doublers that use bottom lip out chops on their saxophones. 



Thank you for your help!

E v e r e t t  F i d l e r 





    
     

    
    


 



  






      

The solution is to have them play on a slightly stiffer reed.  The pitch of the mouthpiece + the barrel should be F# concert.  At this "input pitch" the clarinet will play in tune with itself and other instruments.  

If the player(s) in question can be encouraged to gradually move up in reed strength to 3 or 3 1/2 Mitchell Lurie (or equivalent) depending upon the mouthpiece and to practice long tones so that they can easily play F# concert long tones on the mouthpiece + barrel the problem will will solve itself.

If the older players have poor fitting top dentures or top teeth that are loose or sensitive, that will prevent any remedy that I know of.  In that case, put them on bass drum OR maybe bass clarinet that uses a looser embouchure.

John

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Tom Tapscott <sonusrepair@...> wrote:
>
> Paul Coats has the answer! Really....he's done severalmouthpieces for me and has been right on target every time!
> 
> Sonus Instrument Repair
> 
> Tom Tapscott
> 
> 802 Glendale Dr
> 
> Clarksville, TN 37043
> 
> 931-551-9411
> 
> sonusrepair@...
> 
> --- On Sat, 1/16/10, fidlershorns <grassinospam@...> wrote:
> 
> From: fidlershorns <grassinospam@...>
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Need clarinet mouthpiece that plays sharp
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, January 16, 2010, 11:22 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
>     
>       
>       
>       I am looking for a facing and mouthpiece that plays sharp and is easier to get a good tone in all registers.
> 
> 
> 
> I know some older clarinetist that, as they age, are having trouble keeping pitch up, even though they practice and play a lot. When one plays, we wonder where the goose is! We remind him to firm up the chops etc. each time to get it better for part of the rehearsal. I'd rather not tell these members it is time to sit in the audience. They have lived for the groups for many years. Can anyone help get pitch on track and tone back to blendable? We can use a shorter barrel, but that will not help the throat tones as much as the notes that use the entire length of the instrument. In short, if we go too short, the tuning is compromised. Such a design would also be useful to doublers that use bottom lip out chops on their saxophones. 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for your help!
> 
> E v e r e t t  F i d l e r
>

The folks I am talking about have studied with pros, and we know the F# thing. They have used 3 or 3 1/2 Mitchell Lurie or Vandoren. They do not have the chops to use that hard of a reed well any more, and will not again. One actually had better luck without the rest of his teeth! This answer will not come out of our regular methods books. We'll have to write "Enduring Band Methods for those in their Second (or Third) Childhood".

Buying a bass clarinet at 80, may not be in the works for them after playing on Buffet's for 60+ years, but I will keep my eyes open!

So how about a facing that works with a softer reed? Trumpets can only pull out so far on a hot day!

Do Paul, Mojo, or clarinet specialists have any miracles for us? Is there a shorter clarinet blank with an odd chamber size? If we had a mouthpiece that made the throat tones sharp, it might work with a shorter barrel. There has been plenty of discussion on palm key tuning on sax's with chamber size - does it also apply to clarinets?   

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jtalcott47@...> wrote:
>
> The solution is to have them play on a slightly stiffer reed.  The pitch of the mouthpiece + the barrel should be F# concert.  At this "input pitch" the clarinet will play in tune with itself and other instruments.  
> 
> If the player(s) in question can be encouraged to gradually move up in reed strength to 3 or 3 1/2 Mitchell Lurie (or equivalent) depending upon the mouthpiece and to practice long tones so that they can easily play F# concert long tones on the mouthpiece + barrel the problem will will solve itself.
> 
> If the older players have poor fitting top dentures or top teeth that are loose or sensitive, that will prevent any remedy that I know of.  In that case, put them on bass drum OR maybe bass clarinet that uses a looser embouchure.
> 
> John
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Tom Tapscott <sonusrepair@> wrote:
> >
> > Paul Coats has the answer! Really....he's done severalmouthpieces for me and has been right on target every time!
> > 
> > Sonus Instrument Repair
> > 
> > Tom Tapscott
> > 
> > 802 Glendale Dr
> > 

If I do try to make a smaller chamber clarinet mouthpiece, 

1. What surface preparation should I do on the inside (of the mouthpiece, not of me) before applying the epoxy? Is clean and degreased enough, or would a deglossing or even a light sanding be a good idea? I like to rough up the surface before applying JB weld or Pc-11 on other things.

2. Do you use masking tape or some stronger tape to keep the epoxy off the facing?

3. Do you have recent suggestions on fast setting, safe epoxy brands to ask for at the hardware store? The "Plumbers Epoxy" or putty in message # 1184 etc. is a new one to me. The plumbers putty my plumber relatives use is supposed to stay soft. ANYWAY, the site for it says "Do not use with polyethylene or polypropylenethe". Is there any chance of this on a plastic mouthpiece? I also see "Apoxy" is supposed to be non-toxic. Does anyone have other (hopefully) safe brands to ask for when I go to the hardware store?  


John, I do like the idea of having good musicians on the bass clarinet and drum parts. I'm not sure if the serious guys would go from solo clarinet parts on circus music to the bass clarinet and tenor sax parts. With apology to the tuba, trombone and baritone players whose parts these double, with all the extra brain power freed up playing the easier parts, these could do Sudoku and not miss a note. The Goose honks from blowing too hard to get a 3.5 reed to work. He should take up hunting. I do know an alto sax player I will ask to try bari next time we meet! THANKS.


E v e r e t t  F i d l e r    
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jtalcott47@> wrote:
> >
> > The solution is to have them play on a slightly stiffer reed.  The pitch of the mouthpiece + the barrel should be F# concert.  At this "input pitch" the clarinet will play in tune with itself and other instruments.  
> > 
> > If the player(s) in question can be encouraged to gradually move up in reed strength to 3 or 3 1/2 Mitchell Lurie (or equivalent) depending upon the mouthpiece and to practice long tones so that they can easily play F# concert long tones on the mouthpiece + barrel the problem will will solve itself.
> > 
> > If the older players have poor fitting top dentures or top teeth that are loose or sensitive, that will prevent any remedy that I know of.  In that case, put them on bass drum OR maybe bass clarinet that uses a looser embouchure.
> > 
> > John
> > 
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Tom Tapscott <sonusrepair@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Paul Coats has the answer! Really....he's done severalmouthpieces for me and has been right on target every time!
> > > 
> > > Sonus Instrument Repair
> > > 
> > > Tom Tapscott
> > > 
> > > 802 Glendale Dr
> > >
>

It's worth knowing that a softer reed plays flatter, no matter on what mpc. Changing the interior volume of the mpc is not really an option, since it will change the mode relationships. I suggest having a barrel modified. This is not perfect, since it will make the short tube notes sharp compared
 to the long tube ones, but that is better than trying to modify a mpc.

Toby

  
                 
 

I doubt that the toxicity of epoxy is a problem when building inserts, since the mouth never comes directly in contact with the baffle. I suggest using modeling clay to experiment, and if you find something that suits, you can build the insert in that shape and position. Epoxy putty is the easiest
 way, since you can mold it in place. If you wax the interior, you can mold the insert in place, and then remove it to cure. After it is hard you can cement it in place with a non-permanent bonding agent such as contact cement, so that it can, if necessary, be removed without destroying the mpc.

Toby

fidlershorns <grassinospam@...> wrote:                                           If I do try to make a smaller chamber clarinet mouthpiece, 
 
 1. What surface preparation should I do on the inside (of the mouthpiece, not of me) before applying the epoxy? Is clean and degreased enough, or would a deglossing or even a light sanding be a good idea? I like to rough up the surface before applying JB weld or Pc-11 on other things.
 
 2. Do you use masking tape or some stronger tape to keep the epoxy off the facing?
 
 3. Do you have recent suggestions on fast setting, safe epoxy brands to ask for at the hardware store? The "Plumbers Epoxy" or putty in message # 1184 etc. is a new one to me. The plumbers putty my plumber relatives use is supposed to stay soft. ANYWAY, the site for it says "Do not use with
 polyethylene or polypropylenethe". Is there any chance of this on a plastic mouthpiece? I also see "Apoxy" is supposed to be non-toxic. Does anyone have other (hopefully) safe brands to ask for when I go to the hardware store?  
 
 John, I do like the idea of having good musicians on the bass clarinet and drum parts. I'm not sure if the serious guys would go from solo clarinet parts on circus music to the bass clarinet and tenor sax parts. With apology to the tuba, trombone and baritone players whose parts these double,
 with all the extra brain power freed up playing the easier parts, these could do Sudoku and not miss a note. The Goose honks from blowing too hard to get a 3.5 reed to work. He should take up hunting. I do know an alto sax player I will ask to try bari next time we meet! THANKS.
 
 E v e r e t t  F i d l e r    
 > 
 > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jtalcott47@> wrote:
 > >
 > > The solution is to have them play on a slightly stiffer reed.  The pitch of the mouthpiece + the barrel should be F# concert.  At this "input pitch" the clarinet will play in tune with itself and other instruments.  
 > > 
 > > If the player(s) in question can be encouraged to gradually move up in reed strength to 3 or 3 1/2 Mitchell Lurie (or equivalent) depending upon the mouthpiece and to practice long tones so that they can easily play F# concert long tones on the mouthpiece + barrel the problem will will solve
 itself.
 > > 
 > > If the older players have poor fitting top dentures or top teeth that are loose or sensitive, that will prevent any remedy that I know of.  In that case, put them on bass drum OR maybe bass clarinet that uses a looser embouchure.
 > > 
 > > John
 > > 
 > > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Tom Tapscott <sonusrepair@> wrote:
 > > >
 > > > Paul Coats has the answer! Really....he's done severalmouthpieces for me and has been right on target every time!
 > > > 
 > > > Sonus Instrument Repair
 > > > 
 > > > Tom Tapscott
 > > > 
 > > > 802 Glendale Dr
 > > >
 >
 
 
      
                 
                 
 

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "fidlershorns" <grassinospam@...> wrote:
>
> I am looking for a facing and mouthpiece that plays sharp and is easier to get a good tone in all registers.
> 
> I know some older clarinetist that, as they age, are having trouble keeping pitch up, even though they practice and play a lot. When one plays, we wonder where the goose is! We remind him to firm up the chops etc. each time to get it better for part of the rehearsal. I'd rather not tell these members it is time to sit in the audience. They have lived for the groups for many years. Can anyone help get pitch on track and tone back to blendable? We can use a shorter barrel, but that will not help the throat tones as much as the notes that use the entire length of the instrument. In short, if we go too short, the tuning is compromised. Such a design would also be useful to doublers that use bottom lip out chops on their saxophones. 
> 
> Thank you for your help!
> E v e r e t t  F i d l e r
>
I am sticking my neck out here and don't play classical clarinet, but my suggestion is, assuming the player in question lives in the U.S.A. he will be tuned to A440Hz. A European mouthpiece would help with its A442Hz pitch.
Eddie McLean

I have found that many of the older series Selmer mpcs, such as HS*, DO have a tendency to play a little higher.  Also, there are a couple of Vandoren mpcs that are "designed" to work well with softer reeds, such as the B46 - since the softer reeds DO tend to play a little flatter, these mpcs have already been designed to accomodate this and play a little higher.  This may not solve the problem for your particular client, but perhaps in conjunction with a SLIGHTLY shorter barrel (1-2mm at most) you may be able to come up with a combination that does the trick - it has worked for me in the past.

Glen Sargent
repair tech/woodwind product specialist
NK Music, Rockport, ME  www.nkmusic.net 

Eddie, Glen and all,
Thanks for the help so far.

After I posted last night, I was wondering about the French and American pitch mouthpieces listed especially on Vandoren. Does Runyon offer the French tuning? I was also wondering if what a German system mouthpiece would do on a Buffet, besides be pickier on reeds? 

In a related question, does anyone have experience with Click It barrels on pro clarinets?

I found a 62mm barrel for the honking player to try later today with a tuner. His stock barrel is 67mm long, which may explain a lot and give us plenty of tuning room to experiment with. I can see what mouthpiece he is on now.

E v e r e t t  F i d l e r

> >
> I am sticking my neck out here and don't play classical clarinet, but my suggestion is, assuming the player in question lives in the U.S.A. he will be tuned to A440Hz. A European mouthpiece would help with its A442Hz pitch.
> Eddie McLean
>

"I have found that many of the older series Selmer mpcs, such as HS*, DO have a tendency to play a little higher.  Also, there are a couple of Vandoren mpcs that are "designed" to work well with softer reeds, such as the B46 - since the softer reeds DO tend to play a little flatter, these mpcs have already been designed to accomodate this and play a little higher.  This may not solve the problem for your particular client, but perhaps in conjunction with a SLIGHTLY shorter barrel (1-2mm at most) you may be able to come up with a combination that does the trick - it has worked for me in the past.
 
Glen Sargent
repair tech/woodwind product specialist
NK Music, Rockport, ME  www.nkmusic.net" 

Thank you for giving more detail and background on the older members of
the clarinet section.  Pulling at the barrel or using a shorter barrel
affects the "short tube" notes more than the "long tube" notes.

Going to a barrel short enough to make bring the long C and B up to
pitch would make the throat tones sharp with the same embouchure. 
Lipping down is always easier on clarinet than lipping up.  In the high
register this extra sharpness might be what is needed to compensate for
the lack of embouchure pressure on G3 and higher.

Playing more softly also helps to raise the pitch which also might not
be such a bad idea in the ensemble.

There is a lot more information at this link about the various options. 
See the section on mouthpieces and barrels.

Fobes Tuning and Voicing the Clarinet
<http://www.explicasax.com.br/ftp/artigos/tuning_and_voicing_the_clarine\
t.pdf>

John



--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "fidlershorns" <grassinospam@...>
wrote:
>
> The folks I am talking about have studied with pros, and we know the
F# thing. They have used 3 or 3 1/2 Mitchell Lurie or Vandoren. They do
not have the chops to use that hard of a reed well any more, and will
not again. One actually had better luck without the rest of his teeth!
This answer will not come out of our regular methods books. We'll have
to write "Enduring Band Methods for those in their Second (or Third)
Childhood".
>
> Buying a bass clarinet at 80, may not be in the works for them after
playing on Buffet's for 60+ years, but I will keep my eyes open!
>
> So how about a facing that works with a softer reed? Trumpets can only
pull out so far on a hot day!
>
> Do Paul, Mojo, or clarinet specialists have any miracles for us? Is
there a shorter clarinet blank with an odd chamber size? If we had a
mouthpiece that made the throat tones sharp, it might work with a
shorter barrel. There has been plenty of discussion on palm key tuning
on sax's with chamber size - does it also apply to clarinets?
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "John" jtalcott47@ wrote:
> >
> > The solution is to have them play on a slightly stiffer reed.  The
pitch of the mouthpiece + the barrel should be F# concert.  At this
"input pitch" the clarinet will play in tune with itself and other
instruments.
> >
> > If the player(s) in question can be encouraged to gradually move up
in reed strength to 3 or 3 1/2 Mitchell Lurie (or equivalent) depending
upon the mouthpiece and to practice long tones so that they can easily
play F# concert long tones on the mouthpiece + barrel the problem will
will solve itself.
> >
> > If the older players have poor fitting top dentures or top teeth
that are loose or sensitive, that will prevent any remedy that I know
of.  In that case, put them on bass drum OR maybe bass clarinet that
uses a looser embouchure.
> >
> > John
> >
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Tom Tapscott <sonusrepair@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Paul Coats has the answer! Really....he's done severalmouthpieces
for me and has been right on target every time!
> > >
> > > Sonus Instrument Repair
> > >
> > > Tom Tapscott
> > >
> > > 802 Glendale Dr
> > >
>

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Tom Tapscott <sonusrepair@...> wrote:
>
> Paul Coats has the answer! Really....he's done severalmouthpieces for me and has been right on target every time!
> 
> Sonus Instrument Repair
> 
> Tom Tapscott
> 

Thanks, Tom, I really appreciate the kind words.

Tom is great to work with in that he accurately describes a problem, what results he is looking for, then doesn't constrain me by requesting only certain work or models of mouthpieces.  He gives me free reign to find a solution for him.  I wish all of my customers were like Tom.

I've done a little work with older saxophonists with denture problems.  I suggested a narrower tip opening and slightly longer facing on a medium chamber mouthpiece, and they played with a 2 1/2 reed.  But these players' requirements were pretty mild, playing in community concert bands, or "Big Band".  

But the limitation on clarinet is how far you can adjust the barrel length and keep the clarinet acceptably in tune with itself and others.

I've not experimented with this with clarinet, so can't help.

Paul

Is there really any difference between European and US mpcs in this regard? I seriously doubt it.

Toby

Edward McLean <ed@...> wrote:                                           
 
 --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "fidlershorns" <grassinospam@...> wrote:
 >
 > I am looking for a facing and mouthpiece that plays sharp and is easier to get a good tone in all registers.
 > 
 > I know some older clarinetist that, as they age, are having trouble keeping pitch up, even though they practice and play a lot. When one plays, we wonder where the goose is! We remind him to firm up the chops etc. each time to get it better for part of the rehearsal. I'd rather not tell these
 members it is time to sit in the audience. They have lived for the groups for many years. Can anyone help get pitch on track and tone back to blendable? We can use a shorter barrel, but that will not help the throat tones as much as the notes that use the entire length of the instrument. In
 short, if we go too short, the tuning is compromised. Such a design would also be useful to doublers that use bottom lip out chops on their saxophones. 
 > 
 > Thank you for your help!
 > E v e r e t t  F i d l e r
 >
 I am sticking my neck out here and don't play classical clarinet, but my suggestion is, assuming the player in question lives in the U.S.A. he will be tuned to A440Hz. A European mouthpiece would help with its A442Hz pitch.
 Eddie McLean
 
 
      
                 
                 
 

Mr Talcott,
Thank you for refering me to this truly helpful and useful article. If anyone wants to hop up a clarinet or at least get more up to speed on what is possible, check it out. The tuning and tweaking information seems to confirm and go beyond what my years of experience show. I'm printing and saving this one.
http://www.explicasax.com.br/ftp/artigos/tuning_and_voicing_the_clarinet.pdf

Anyway, about mouthpiece design, it includes information on bores and the taper of the barrels related to them. As far as chamber volume for a clarinet, it says -

"There is a narrow range of minimum to maximum overall volume for a mouthpiece
that will create good modal ratios and proper fundamental pitch. Dr. Gibson states that this optimal volume is
13.5cm3. When a mouthpiece volume falls out of this range it will play either too sharp (small volume) or too flat
(large volume)." and "However, the bore cannot exceed roughly two-thirds of the overall volume without
compromising modal ratios."

The barrel on one of the guy's clarinet is already 1 mm longer than what the article states as the normal range for Bb Buffet. (That explains a part of his 30 year fight with being flat!) It will give me a reference point to check on the others! 

SO - here's the plan, and feel free to write me on or off the board with other ideas. 1. we'll shorten the barrel 2mm,(to give warm weather tuning room) 2. have him work on keeping the F# chops feel and sound at all times, (not just when looking at the tuner, while listening, or in easy passages) 3. then we'll look at the other mouthpiece designs available. In the mean time, I may do back to back experimentation on a smaller chamber mouthpiece with a more old chop friendly facing. 4. Find a bass clarinet for someone with real dental problems and good fingers.

To all who pondered short or long on this one, THANK YOU for helping with info not easily found elsewhere! 

E V E R E T T  F I D L E R 

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jtalcott47@...> wrote:

> There is a lot more information at this link about the various options. 
> See the section on mouthpieces and barrels.
> 
> Fobes Tuning and Voicing the Clarinet
> <http://www.explicasax.com.br/ftp/artigos/tuning_and_voicing_the_clarine\
> t.pdf>
> 
> John
> 

BTW, the measurement of the barrel was longer with a caliper than a ruler from the music room's lost and found.