Mouthpiece Work / Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
FROM: lancelotburt (MartinMods)
SUBJECT: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
John,
It's not the odd harmonics, it just forms a new regime on the D5 with it's integral relationship resonances, since the D4 is detuned and damped so much, It can not participate. The regime is not super stable, as attempting to over-blow the overtones shifts you back to those of D4 again.
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: John <jtalcott47@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 11:57:20 AM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
That's what I thought too. You can check it out at Saxophone acoustics Print the harmonic spectrum for the Tenor sax D4 and D5 and then overlay one over the other. Also do G4 and G5. It is plain to see that the odd numbered harmonics are missing in the series for the higher octave note. Very interesting . . . .
The sequence of overtones you listed are still those of the 1st harmonic (fundamental) ---you are just starting on the second one. One might try to produce overtones playing D with the octave key and see what happens.
John
--- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@ ...> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> The second register is based upon the overtone series of the first octave, since it is merely an overblown low note's 2nd harmonic mode. So, the overtones of D2 are, A2, D3, F#3, A3, C4, etc... You can demonstrate this easily by over-blowing the sequence on your horn.
>
> MM
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: John jtalcott47@. ..
> To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Sun, December 27, 2009 5:28:22 PM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
>
>
> I think it would be a great idea to take the New vs Vintage arguments over to Steve's forum. This was a good thread on the basics of acoustics until it got hijacked. To bring it back to the general topic:
>
> I have been studying the saxophone sound spectrum graphs at the UNSW site and have discovered that in the second register it looks as if the notes have only the even numbered overtones. Is this true, and does anyone know the explanation for this.
>
> This one piece of information, if it is true, makes a great deal difference in the location of the nodes of a notes harmonics because only certain whole number multiples of the frequency of the note played are included.
>
> John
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "STEVE GOODSON" <saxgourmet@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > I've overhauled HUNDREDS of vintage horns....even if you can get them to
> > play in tune and respond properly, you've still got an old horn with all its
> > limitations. .this is the main reason I got into the saxophone design
> > business.... people often say "Coltrane and Parker sounded great on an old
> > horn" and it's true that they did. But consider if you will how much better
> > they might have sounded on an instrument that was not so much work to play!
> >
> >
> >
> > The replication of the "sound" of horns of the past is easy, all it takes is
> > the will to do so. Tastes have changed, and most manufacturers today
> > manufacture horns that are brighter in sound. Trust me, if they were not
> > selling, they would not be doing so! There is no mystery or magic involved.
> > Some manufacturers (including my company and a few others) offer players
> > options which result in a variety of available tones.
> >
> >
> >
> > I really think this discussion is a little inappropriate for a mouthpiece
> > refacing group, and invite the participants to move it to the saxophone
> > repair group on Yahoo.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
> >
> > STEVE GOODSON
> >
> > SAXOPHONE DESIGNER TO THE STARS
> >
> >
> >
> > our products are ALL rated
> >
> >
> >
> > cid:339191121@ 25022009- 09F4
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve is a member of
> >
> > hd_logo NAMMbelieve2nasacon f_GIF
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > PLEASE VISIT MY WEBSITES
> > <http://www.nationof music.com/> http://www.nationof music.com/ (retail sales
> > and discussion forum)
> > <http://launch. groups.yahoo. com/group/ SaxophoneRepair/>
> > http://launch. groups.yahoo. com/group/ SaxophoneRepair/ (discussion group)
> > <http://www.saxgourm et.com/> http://www.saxgourm et.com/ (saxophone history
> > and information)
> > <http://saxophonetho ughts.blogspot. com/>
> > http://saxophonetho ughts.blogspot. com/ (my personal saxophone blog)
> >
> >
> >
> > READ MY ARTICLES ON SAXOPHONE DESIGN IN EACH ISSUE OF THE SAXOPHONE JOURNAL
> > The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
> > hallway where thieves
> >
> > BASIC SHOP RATE........ ........$ 100/HR
> >
> > IF YOU WATCH....... ......... .....$125/ HR
> >
> > IF YOU ASK QUESTIONS... ...$150/HR
> >
> > IF I HAVE TO LISTEN TO A CONCERT
> >
> > LONGER THAN FIVE MINUTES WHEN
> >
> > YOU PICK UP YOUR HORN....$250/ HR
> >
> >
> >
> > The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
> > hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There's
> > also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson
> >
> >
> >
> > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is
> > for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential
> > and privileged information or otherwise protected by law. Any unauthorized
> > review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the
> > intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy
> > all copies of the original message.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:MouthpieceW ork@ yahoogroups. com]
> > On Behalf Of tenorman1952
> > Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 9:28 AM
> > To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
> > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > When a customer brings in an old 6M, Truetone, Balanced Action, or
> > > Martin that they truly love the sound on and ask can you do anything for
> > > this note or set of notes so I don't have to fight the pitch as much, as
> > > a technician I want to learn and develop the skills to be able to help
> > > them.
> >
> > I have spent many, many hours correcting intonation issues on some
> > instruments, and the time spent is very difficult to recover from the
> > customer. Correcting one note will often affect others, or perhaps the
> > entire register. I have even made special mouthpieces for particularly
> > troublesome instruments. The time involved is a killer.
> >
> > Paul C.
> >
>
FROM: jbtsax (John)
SUBJECT: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
Apparently we are both right. Harmonics of D1: D1 D2 A2 D3 F#3 A3 C4 D4 E4 F#5 Harmonics of D2: D2 D3 A3 D4 F#5 I have never noticed the relationship till now. It is interesting that only the odd numbered harmonics are produced with any strength in the low register of the clarinet, but when played in the upper register there are both even and odd harmonics present. In a way this is the the converse of the saxophone. John --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@...> wrote: > > John, > > It's not the odd harmonics, it just forms a new regime on the D5 with it's integral relationship resonances, since the D4 is detuned and damped so much, It can not participate. The regime is not super stable, as attempting to over-blow the overtones shifts you back to those of D4 again. > > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > From: John jtalcott47@... > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 11:57:20 AM > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes > > > That's what I thought too. You can check it out at Saxophone acoustics Print the harmonic spectrum for the Tenor sax D4 and D5 and then overlay one over the other. Also do G4 and G5. It is plain to see that the odd numbered harmonics are missing in the series for the higher octave note. Very interesting . . . . > > The sequence of overtones you listed are still those of the 1st harmonic (fundamental) ---you are just starting on the second one. One might try to produce overtones playing D with the octave key and see what happens. > > John > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@ ...> wrote: > > > > John, > > > > The second register is based upon the overtone series of the first octave, since it is merely an overblown low note's 2nd harmonic mode. So, the overtones of D2 are, A2, D3, F#3, A3, C4, etc... You can demonstrate this easily by over-blowing the sequence on your horn. > > > > MM > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > From: John jtalcott47@ .. > > To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com > > Sent: Sun, December 27, 2009 5:28:22 PM > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes > > > > > > I think it would be a great idea to take the New vs Vintage arguments over to Steve's forum. This was a good thread on the basics of acoustics until it got hijacked. To bring it back to the general topic: > > > > I have been studying the saxophone sound spectrum graphs at the UNSW site and have discovered that in the second register it looks as if the notes have only the even numbered overtones. Is this true, and does anyone know the explanation for this. > > > > This one piece of information, if it is true, makes a great deal difference in the location of the nodes of a notes harmonics because only certain whole number multiples of the frequency of the note played are included. > > > > John > > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "STEVE GOODSON" <saxgourmet@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > I've overhauled HUNDREDS of vintage horns....even if you can get them to > > > play in tune and respond properly, you've still got an old horn with all its > > > limitations. .this is the main reason I got into the saxophone design > > > business.... people often say "Coltrane and Parker sounded great on an old > > > horn" and it's true that they did. But consider if you will how much better > > > they might have sounded on an instrument that was not so much work to play! > > > > > > > > > > > > The replication of the "sound" of horns of the past is easy, all it takes is > > > the will to do so. Tastes have changed, and most manufacturers today > > > manufacture horns that are brighter in sound. Trust me, if they were not > > > selling, they would not be doing so! There is no mystery or magic involved. > > > Some manufacturers (including my company and a few others) offer players > > > options which result in a variety of available tones. > > > > > > > > > > > > I really think this discussion is a little inappropriate for a mouthpiece > > > refacing group, and invite the participants to move it to the saxophone > > > repair group on Yahoo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc > > > > > > STEVE GOODSON > > > > > > SAXOPHONE DESIGNER TO THE STARS > > > > > > > > > > > > our products are ALL rated > > > > > > > > > > > > cid:339191121@ 25022009- 09F4 > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve is a member of > > > > > > hd_logo NAMMbelieve2nasacon f_GIF > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PLEASE VISIT MY WEBSITES > > > <http://www.nationof music.com/> http://www.nationof music.com/ (retail sales > > > and discussion forum) > > > <http://launch. groups.yahoo. com/group/ SaxophoneRepair/> > > > http://launch. groups.yahoo. com/group/ SaxophoneRepair/ (discussion group) > > > <http://www.saxgourm et.com/> http://www.saxgourm et.com/ (saxophone history > > > and information) > > > <http://saxophonetho ughts.blogspot. com/> > > > http://saxophonetho ughts.blogspot. com/ (my personal saxophone blog) > > > > > > > > > > > > READ MY ARTICLES ON SAXOPHONE DESIGN IN EACH ISSUE OF THE SAXOPHONE JOURNAL > > > The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic > > > hallway where thieves > > > > > > BASIC SHOP RATE........ ........$ 100/HR > > > > > > IF YOU WATCH....... ......... .....$125/ HR > > > > > > IF YOU ASK QUESTIONS... ...$150/HR > > > > > > IF I HAVE TO LISTEN TO A CONCERT > > > > > > LONGER THAN FIVE MINUTES WHEN > > > > > > YOU PICK UP YOUR HORN....$250/ HR > > > > > > > > > > > > The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic > > > hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There's > > > also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson > > > > > > > > > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is > > > for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential > > > and privileged information or otherwise protected by law. Any unauthorized > > > review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the > > > intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy > > > all copies of the original message. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:MouthpieceW ork@ yahoogroups. com] > > > On Behalf Of tenorman1952 > > > Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 9:28 AM > > > To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com > > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When a customer brings in an old 6M, Truetone, Balanced Action, or > > > > Martin that they truly love the sound on and ask can you do anything for > > > > this note or set of notes so I don't have to fight the pitch as much, as > > > > a technician I want to learn and develop the skills to be able to help > > > > them. > > > > > > I have spent many, many hours correcting intonation issues on some > > > instruments, and the time spent is very difficult to recover from the > > > customer. Correcting one note will often affect others, or perhaps the > > > entire register. I have even made special mouthpieces for particularly > > > troublesome instruments. The time involved is a killer. > > > > > > Paul C. > > > > > >
FROM: kymarto (kymarto123@...)
SUBJECT: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
Not really. This is worth reading even though it deals with clarinet vs. flute:
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/reprints/AAclarinet.pdf
Toby
John <jtalcott47@...> wrote:
Apparently we are both right.
Harmonics of D1: D1 D2 A2 D3 F#3 A3 C4 D4 E4 F#5
Harmonics of D2: D2 D3 A3 D4 F#5
I have never noticed the relationship till now. It is interesting that only the odd numbered harmonics are produced with any strength in the low register of the clarinet, but when played in the upper register there are both even and odd harmonics present. In a way this is the the converse of
the saxophone.
John
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@...> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> It's not the odd harmonics, it just forms a new regime on the D5 with it's integral relationship resonances, since the D4 is detuned and damped so much, It can not participate. The regime is not super stable, as attempting to over-blow the overtones shifts you back to those of D4 again.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Forwarded Message ----
> From: John jtalcott47@...
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 11:57:20 AM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
>
>
> That's what I thought too. You can check it out at Saxophone acoustics Print the harmonic spectrum for the Tenor sax D4 and D5 and then overlay one over the other. Also do G4 and G5. It is plain to see that the odd numbered harmonics are missing in the series for the higher octave note.
Very interesting . . . .
>
> The sequence of overtones you listed are still those of the 1st harmonic (fundamental) ---you are just starting on the second one. One might try to produce overtones playing D with the octave key and see what happens.
>
> John
>
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > John,
> >
> > The second register is based upon the overtone series of the first octave, since it is merely an overblown low note's 2nd harmonic mode. So, the overtones of D2 are, A2, D3, F#3, A3, C4, etc... You can demonstrate this easily by over-blowing the sequence on your horn.
> >
> > MM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: John jtalcott47@ ..
> > To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Sun, December 27, 2009 5:28:22 PM
> > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
> >
> >
> > I think it would be a great idea to take the New vs Vintage arguments over to Steve's forum. This was a good thread on the basics of acoustics until it got hijacked. To bring it back to the general topic:
> >
> > I have been studying the saxophone sound spectrum graphs at the UNSW site and have discovered that in the second register it looks as if the notes have only the even numbered overtones. Is this true, and does anyone know the explanation for this.
> >
> > This one piece of information, if it is true, makes a great deal difference in the location of the nodes of a notes harmonics because only certain whole number multiples of the frequency of the note played are included.
> >
> > John
> >
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "STEVE GOODSON" <saxgourmet@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I've overhauled HUNDREDS of vintage horns....even if you can get them to
> > > play in tune and respond properly, you've still got an old horn with all its
> > > limitations. .this is the main reason I got into the saxophone design
> > > business.... people often say "Coltrane and Parker sounded great on an old
> > > horn" and it's true that they did. But consider if you will how much better
> > > they might have sounded on an instrument that was not so much work to play!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The replication of the "sound" of horns of the past is easy, all it takes is
> > > the will to do so. Tastes have changed, and most manufacturers today
> > > manufacture horns that are brighter in sound. Trust me, if they were not
> > > selling, they would not be doing so! There is no mystery or magic involved.
> > > Some manufacturers (including my company and a few others) offer players
> > > options which result in a variety of available tones.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I really think this discussion is a little inappropriate for a mouthpiece
> > > refacing group, and invite the participants to move it to the saxophone
> > > repair group on Yahoo.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
> > >
> > > STEVE GOODSON
> > >
> > > SAXOPHONE DESIGNER TO THE STARS
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > our products are ALL rated
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > cid:339191121@ 25022009- 09F4
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Steve is a member of
> > >
> > > hd_logo NAMMbelieve2nasacon f_GIF
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > PLEASE VISIT MY WEBSITES
> > > <http://www.nationof music.com/> http://www.nationof music.com/ (retail sales
> > > and discussion forum)
> > > <http://launch. groups.yahoo. com/group/ SaxophoneRepair/>
> > > http://launch. groups.yahoo. com/group/ SaxophoneRepair/ (discussion group)
> > > <http://www.saxgourm et.com/> http://www.saxgourm et.com/ (saxophone history
> > > and information)
> > > <http://saxophonetho ughts.blogspot. com/>
> > > http://saxophonetho ughts.blogspot. com/ (my personal saxophone blog)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > READ MY ARTICLES ON SAXOPHONE DESIGN IN EACH ISSUE OF THE SAXOPHONE JOURNAL
> > > The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
> > > hallway where thieves
> > >
> > > BASIC SHOP RATE........ ........$ 100/HR
> > >
> > > IF YOU WATCH....... ......... .....$125/ HR
> > >
> > > IF YOU ASK QUESTIONS... ...$150/HR
> > >
> > > IF I HAVE TO LISTEN TO A CONCERT
> > >
> > > LONGER THAN FIVE MINUTES WHEN
> > >
> > > YOU PICK UP YOUR HORN....$250/ HR
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
> > > hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There's
> > > also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is
> > > for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential
> > > and privileged information or otherwise protected by law. Any unauthorized
> > > review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the
> > > intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy
> > > all copies of the original message.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:MouthpieceW ork@ yahoogroups. com]
> > > On Behalf Of tenorman1952
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 9:28 AM
> > > To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > When a customer brings in an old 6M, Truetone, Balanced Action, or
> > > > Martin that they truly love the sound on and ask can you do anything for
> > > > this note or set of notes so I don't have to fight the pitch as much, as
> > > > a technician I want to learn and develop the skills to be able to help
> > > > them.
> > >
> > > I have spent many, many hours correcting intonation issues on some
> > > instruments, and the time spent is very difficult to recover from the
> > > customer. Correcting one note will often affect others, or perhaps the
> > > entire register. I have even made special mouthpieces for particularly
> > > troublesome instruments. The time involved is a killer.
> > >
> > > Paul C.
> > >
> >
>
FROM: kymarto (kymarto123@...)
SUBJECT: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
Here is a simple explanation from USNW:
In the first register, the first and third harmonics are strong, and the second is weak. This preponderance of odd harmonics gives the clarinet in its low range the characteristic 'hollow' sound. As one ascends in the clarino register and above, however, the even harmonics begin to
lose their systematic weakness. Consequently the sound is brighter, fuller and, unless one is careful, louder. Playing a passage across the break, one tries to hide this difference in timbre and loudness.
The spectra of most of the notes in the clarino register have both odd and even harmonics and the associated bright, full tone, rather than just the odd harmonics and 'hollow' sound of the chalumeau register. In the chalumeau register there are impedance peaks near the third, fifth
and seventh harmonics, whereas there are 'valleys' corresponding to the second, fourth and sixth. Beyond that, the peaks are no longer in accurate, harmonic ratios and the effect disappears. For the low notes in the chalumeau register, this high frequency inharmonicity is due to the
bell, for higher notes it is due to the effects of open tone holes.
In the clarino register, even the third and fifth harmonics of the note played (which would be the ninth and fifteenth harmonics of the corresponding note in the chalumeau register) are up in the frequency ratio where the bore is inharmonic, because of the bell and tone hole effects.
Toby
John <jtalcott47@...> wrote:
Apparently we are both right.
Harmonics of D1: D1 D2 A2 D3 F#3 A3 C4 D4 E4 F#5
Harmonics of D2: D2 D3 A3 D4 F#5
I have never noticed the relationship till now. It is interesting that only the odd numbered harmonics are produced with any strength in the low register of the clarinet, but when played in the upper register there are both even and odd harmonics present. In a way this is the the converse of
the saxophone.
John
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@...> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> It's not the odd harmonics, it just forms a new regime on the D5 with it's integral relationship resonances, since the D4 is detuned and damped so much, It can not participate. The regime is not super stable, as attempting to over-blow the overtones shifts you back to those of D4 again.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Forwarded Message ----
> From: John jtalcott47@...
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 11:57:20 AM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
>
>
> That's what I thought too. You can check it out at Saxophone acoustics Print the harmonic spectrum for the Tenor sax D4 and D5 and then overlay one over the other. Also do G4 and G5. It is plain to see that the odd numbered harmonics are missing in the series for the higher octave note.
Very interesting . . . .
>
> The sequence of overtones you listed are still those of the 1st harmonic (fundamental) ---you are just starting on the second one. One might try to produce overtones playing D with the octave key and see what happens.
>
> John
>
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > John,
> >
> > The second register is based upon the overtone series of the first octave, since it is merely an overblown low note's 2nd harmonic mode. So, the overtones of D2 are, A2, D3, F#3, A3, C4, etc... You can demonstrate this easily by over-blowing the sequence on your horn.
> >
> > MM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: John jtalcott47@ ..
> > To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Sun, December 27, 2009 5:28:22 PM
> > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
> >
> >
> > I think it would be a great idea to take the New vs Vintage arguments over to Steve's forum. This was a good thread on the basics of acoustics until it got hijacked. To bring it back to the general topic:
> >
> > I have been studying the saxophone sound spectrum graphs at the UNSW site and have discovered that in the second register it looks as if the notes have only the even numbered overtones. Is this true, and does anyone know the explanation for this.
> >
> > This one piece of information, if it is true, makes a great deal difference in the location of the nodes of a notes harmonics because only certain whole number multiples of the frequency of the note played are included.
> >
> > John
> >
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "STEVE GOODSON" <saxgourmet@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I've overhauled HUNDREDS of vintage horns....even if you can get them to
> > > play in tune and respond properly, you've still got an old horn with all its
> > > limitations. .this is the main reason I got into the saxophone design
> > > business.... people often say "Coltrane and Parker sounded great on an old
> > > horn" and it's true that they did. But consider if you will how much better
> > > they might have sounded on an instrument that was not so much work to play!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The replication of the "sound" of horns of the past is easy, all it takes is
> > > the will to do so. Tastes have changed, and most manufacturers today
> > > manufacture horns that are brighter in sound. Trust me, if they were not
> > > selling, they would not be doing so! There is no mystery or magic involved.
> > > Some manufacturers (including my company and a few others) offer players
> > > options which result in a variety of available tones.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I really think this discussion is a little inappropriate for a mouthpiece
> > > refacing group, and invite the participants to move it to the saxophone
> > > repair group on Yahoo.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
> > >
> > > STEVE GOODSON
> > >
> > > SAXOPHONE DESIGNER TO THE STARS
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > our products are ALL rated
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > cid:339191121@ 25022009- 09F4
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Steve is a member of
> > >
> > > hd_logo NAMMbelieve2nasacon f_GIF
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > PLEASE VISIT MY WEBSITES
> > > <http://www.nationof music.com/> http://www.nationof music.com/ (retail sales
> > > and discussion forum)
> > > <http://launch. groups.yahoo. com/group/ SaxophoneRepair/>
> > > http://launch. groups.yahoo. com/group/ SaxophoneRepair/ (discussion group)
> > > <http://www.saxgourm et.com/> http://www.saxgourm et.com/ (saxophone history
> > > and information)
> > > <http://saxophonetho ughts.blogspot. com/>
> > > http://saxophonetho ughts.blogspot. com/ (my personal saxophone blog)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > READ MY ARTICLES ON SAXOPHONE DESIGN IN EACH ISSUE OF THE SAXOPHONE JOURNAL
> > > The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
> > > hallway where thieves
> > >
> > > BASIC SHOP RATE........ ........$ 100/HR
> > >
> > > IF YOU WATCH....... ......... .....$125/ HR
> > >
> > > IF YOU ASK QUESTIONS... ...$150/HR
> > >
> > > IF I HAVE TO LISTEN TO A CONCERT
> > >
> > > LONGER THAN FIVE MINUTES WHEN
> > >
> > > YOU PICK UP YOUR HORN....$250/ HR
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
> > > hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There's
> > > also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is
> > > for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential
> > > and privileged information or otherwise protected by law. Any unauthorized
> > > review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the
> > > intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy
> > > all copies of the original message.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:MouthpieceW ork@ yahoogroups. com]
> > > On Behalf Of tenorman1952
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 9:28 AM
> > > To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > When a customer brings in an old 6M, Truetone, Balanced Action, or
> > > > Martin that they truly love the sound on and ask can you do anything for
> > > > this note or set of notes so I don't have to fight the pitch as much, as
> > > > a technician I want to learn and develop the skills to be able to help
> > > > them.
> > >
> > > I have spent many, many hours correcting intonation issues on some
> > > instruments, and the time spent is very difficult to recover from the
> > > customer. Correcting one note will often affect others, or perhaps the
> > > entire register. I have even made special mouthpieces for particularly
> > > troublesome instruments. The time involved is a killer.
> > >
> > > Paul C.
> > >
> >
>
FROM: lancelotburt (MartinMods)
SUBJECT: Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
Most interesting. The A3 will most likely be above the cut-off frequency, so only the D2 and D3 resonances drive the D2 regime. A weak or misaligned D3 will give you a stuffy D2. The higher the D3 peak, as long as it is less than the D2 peak, the clearer the D2.
________________________________
From: John <jtalcott47@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 1:28:30 AM
Subject: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
Apparently we are both right.
Harmonics of D1: D1 D2 A2 D3 F#3 A3 C4 D4 E4 F#5
Harmonics of D2: D2 D3 A3 D4 F#5
I have never noticed the relationship till now. It is interesting that only the odd numbered harmonics are produced with any strength in the low register of the clarinet, but when played in the upper register there are both even and odd harmonics present. In a way this is the the converse of the saxophone.
John
--- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@ ...> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> It's not the odd harmonics, it just forms a new regime on the D5 with it's integral relationship resonances, since the D4 is detuned and damped so much, It can not participate. The regime is not super stable, as attempting to over-blow the overtones shifts you back to those of D4 again.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Forwarded Message ----
> From: John jtalcott47@. ..
> To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 11:57:20 AM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
>
>
> That's what I thought too. You can check it out at Saxophone acoustics Print the harmonic spectrum for the Tenor sax D4 and D5 and then overlay one over the other. Also do G4 and G5. It is plain to see that the odd numbered harmonics are missing in the series for the higher octave note. Very interesting . . . .
>
> The sequence of overtones you listed are still those of the 1st harmonic (fundamental) ---you are just starting on the second one. One might try to produce overtones playing D with the octave key and see what happens.
>
> John
>
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > John,
> >
> > The second register is based upon the overtone series of the first octave, since it is merely an overblown low note's 2nd harmonic mode. So, the overtones of D2 are, A2, D3, F#3, A3, C4, etc... You can demonstrate this easily by over-blowing the sequence on your horn.
> >
> > MM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: John jtalcott47@ ..
> > To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Sun, December 27, 2009 5:28:22 PM
> > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
> >
> >
> > I think it would be a great idea to take the New vs Vintage arguments over to Steve's forum. This was a good thread on the basics of acoustics until it got hijacked. To bring it back to the general topic:
> >
> > I have been studying the saxophone sound spectrum graphs at the UNSW site and have discovered that in the second register it looks as if the notes have only the even numbered overtones. Is this true, and does anyone know the explanation for this.
> >
> > This one piece of information, if it is true, makes a great deal difference in the location of the nodes of a notes harmonics because only certain whole number multiples of the frequency of the note played are included.
> >
> > John
> >
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "STEVE GOODSON" <saxgourmet@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I've overhauled HUNDREDS of vintage horns....even if you can get them to
> > > play in tune and respond properly, you've still got an old horn with all its
> > > limitations. .this is the main reason I got into the saxophone design
> > > business.... people often say "Coltrane and Parker sounded great on an old
> > > horn" and it's true that they did. But consider if you will how much better
> > > they might have sounded on an instrument that was not so much work to play!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The replication of the "sound" of horns of the past is easy, all it takes is
> > > the will to do so. Tastes have changed, and most manufacturers today
> > > manufacture horns that are brighter in sound. Trust me, if they were not
> > > selling, they would not be doing so! There is no mystery or magic involved.
> > > Some manufacturers (including my company and a few others) offer players
> > > options which result in a variety of available tones.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I really think this discussion is a little inappropriate for a mouthpiece
> > > refacing group, and invite the participants to move it to the saxophone
> > > repair group on Yahoo.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
> > >
> > > STEVE GOODSON
> > >
> > > SAXOPHONE DESIGNER TO THE STARS
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > our products are ALL rated
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > cid:339191121@ 25022009- 09F4
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Steve is a member of
> > >
> > > hd_logo NAMMbelieve2nasacon f_GIF
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > PLEASE VISIT MY WEBSITES
> > > <http://www.nationof music.com/> http://www.nationof music.com/ (retail sales
> > > and discussion forum)
> > > <http://launch. groups.yahoo. com/group/ SaxophoneRepair/>
> > > http://launch. groups.yahoo. com/group/ SaxophoneRepair/ (discussion group)
> > > <http://www.saxgourm et.com/> http://www.saxgourm et.com/ (saxophone history
> > > and information)
> > > <http://saxophonetho ughts.blogspot. com/>
> > > http://saxophonetho ughts.blogspot. com/ (my personal saxophone blog)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > READ MY ARTICLES ON SAXOPHONE DESIGN IN EACH ISSUE OF THE SAXOPHONE JOURNAL
> > > The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
> > > hallway where thieves
> > >
> > > BASIC SHOP RATE........ ........$ 100/HR
> > >
> > > IF YOU WATCH....... ......... .....$125/ HR
> > >
> > > IF YOU ASK QUESTIONS... ...$150/HR
> > >
> > > IF I HAVE TO LISTEN TO A CONCERT
> > >
> > > LONGER THAN FIVE MINUTES WHEN
> > >
> > > YOU PICK UP YOUR HORN....$250/ HR
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
> > > hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There's
> > > also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is
> > > for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential
> > > and privileged information or otherwise protected by law. Any unauthorized
> > > review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the
> > > intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy
> > > all copies of the original message.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:MouthpieceW ork@ yahoogroups. com]
> > > On Behalf Of tenorman1952
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 9:28 AM
> > > To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > When a customer brings in an old 6M, Truetone, Balanced Action, or
> > > > Martin that they truly love the sound on and ask can you do anything for
> > > > this note or set of notes so I don't have to fight the pitch as much, as
> > > > a technician I want to learn and develop the skills to be able to help
> > > > them.
> > >
> > > I have spent many, many hours correcting intonation issues on some
> > > instruments, and the time spent is very difficult to recover from the
> > > customer. Correcting one note will often affect others, or perhaps the
> > > entire register. I have even made special mouthpieces for particularly
> > > troublesome instruments. The time involved is a killer.
> > >
> > > Paul C.
> > >
> >
>
FROM: mdc5220 (chedoggy)
SUBJECT: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
I was about to "node off" :) reading the most recent posts when I wondered how refacers take the harmonic series into account when refacing a mouthpiece or modifying baffles. My playing experience tells me that mouthpiece facing including designed resistance in the curve makes a large difference on the overtone series in terms of producing harmonics within the series and intonation. Sorry to interrupt.
----- Original Message -----
From: kymarto123@...
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:11 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
Here is a simple explanation from USNW:
In the first register, the first and third harmonics are strong, and the second is weak. This preponderance of odd harmonics gives the clarinet in its low range the characteristic 'hollow' sound. As one ascends in the clarino register and above, however, the even harmonics begin to lose their systematic weakness. Consequently the sound is brighter, fuller and, unless one is careful, louder. Playing a passage across the break, one tries to hide this difference in timbre and loudness.
The spectra of most of the notes in the clarino register have both odd and even harmonics and the associated bright, full tone, rather than just the odd harmonics and 'hollow' sound of the chalumeau register. In the chalumeau register there are impedance peaks near the third, fifth and seventh harmonics, whereas there are 'valleys' corresponding to the second, fourth and sixth. Beyond that, the peaks are no longer in accurate, harmonic ratios and the effect disappears. For the low notes in the chalumeau register, this high frequency inharmonicity is due to the bell, for higher notes it is due to the effects of open tone holes.
In the clarino register, even the third and fifth harmonics of the note played (which would be the ninth and fifteenth harmonics of the corresponding note in the chalumeau register) are up in the frequency ratio where the bore is inharmonic, because of the bell and tone hole effects.
Toby
John <jtalcott47@...> wrote:
Apparently we are both right.
Harmonics of D1: D1 D2 A2 D3 F#3 A3 C4 D4 E4 F#5
Harmonics of D2: D2 D3 A3 D4 F#5
I have never noticed the relationship till now. It is interesting that only the odd numbered harmonics are produced with any strength in the low register of the clarinet, but when played in the upper register there are both even and odd harmonics present. In a way this is the the converse of the saxophone.
John
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@...> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> It's not the odd harmonics, it just forms a new regime on the D5 with it's integral relationship resonances, since the D4 is detuned and damped so much, It can not participate. The regime is not super stable, as attempting to over-blow the overtones shifts you back to those of D4 again.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Forwarded Message ----
> From: John jtalcott47@...
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 11:57:20 AM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
>
>
> That's what I thought too. You can check it out at Saxophone acoustics Print the harmonic spectrum for the Tenor sax D4 and D5 and then overlay one over the other. Also do G4 and G5. It is plain to see that the odd numbered harmonics are missing in the series for the higher octave note. Very interesting . . . .
>
> The sequence of overtones you listed are still those of the 1st harmonic (fundamental) ---you are just starting on the second one. One might try to produce overtones playing D with the octave key and see what happens.
>
> John
>
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > John,
> >
> > The second register is based upon the overtone series of the first octave, since it is merely an overblown low note's 2nd harmonic mode. So, the overtones of D2 are, A2, D3, F#3, A3, C4, etc... You can demonstrate this easily by over-blowing the sequence on your horn.
> >
> > MM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: John jtalcott47@ ..
> > To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Sun, December 27, 2009 5:28:22 PM
> > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
> >
> >
> > I think it would be a great idea to take the New vs Vintage arguments over to Steve's forum. This was a good thread on the basics of acoustics until it got hijacked. To bring it back to the general topic:
> >
> > I have been studying the saxophone sound spectrum graphs at the UNSW site and have discovered that in the second register it looks as if the notes have only the even numbered overtones. Is this true, and does anyone know the explanation for this.
> >
> > This one piece of information, if it is true, makes a great deal difference in the location of the nodes of a notes harmonics because only certain whole number multiples of the frequency of the note played are included.
> >
> > John
> >
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "STEVE GOODSON" <saxgourmet@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I've overhauled HUNDREDS of vintage horns....even if you can get them to
> > > play in tune and respond properly, you've still got an old horn with all its
> > > limitations. .this is the main reason I got into the saxophone design
> > > business.... people often say "Coltrane and Parker sounded great on an old
> > > horn" and it's true that they did. But consider if you will how much better
> > > they might have sounded on an instrument that was not so much work to play!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The replication of the "sound" of horns of the past is easy, all it takes is
> > > the will to do so. Tastes have changed, and most manufacturers today
> > > manufacture horns that are brighter in sound. Trust me, if they were not
> > > selling, they would not be doing so! There is no mystery or magic involved.
> > > Some manufacturers (including my company and a few others) offer players
> > > options which result in a variety of available tones.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I really think this discussion is a little inappropriate for a mouthpiece
> > > refacing group, and invite the participants to move it to the saxophone
> > > repair group on Yahoo.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
> > >
> > > STEVE GOODSON
> > >
> > > SAXOPHONE DESIGNER TO THE STARS
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > our products are ALL rated
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > cid:339191121@ 25022009- 09F4
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Steve is a member of
> > >
> > > hd_logo NAMMbelieve2nasacon f_GIF
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > PLEASE VISIT MY WEBSITES
> > > <http://www.nationof music.com/> http://www.nationof music.com/ (retail sales
> > > and discussion forum)
> > > <http://launch. groups.yahoo. com/group/ SaxophoneRepair/>
> > > http://launch. groups.yahoo. com/group/ SaxophoneRepair/ (discussion group)
> > > <http://www.saxgourm et.com/> http://www.saxgourm et.com/ (saxophone history
> > > and information)
> > > <http://saxophonetho ughts.blogspot. com/>
> > > http://saxophonetho ughts.blogspot. com/ (my personal saxophone blog)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > READ MY ARTICLES ON SAXOPHONE DESIGN IN EACH ISSUE OF THE SAXOPHONE JOURNAL
> > > The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
> > > hallway where thieves
> > >
> > > BASIC SHOP RATE........ ........$ 100/HR
> > >
> > > IF YOU WATCH....... ......... .....$125/ HR
> > >
> > > IF YOU ASK QUESTIONS... ...$150/HR
> > >
> > > IF I HAVE TO LISTEN TO A CONCERT
> > >
> > > LONGER THAN FIVE MINUTES WHEN
> > >
> > > YOU PICK UP YOUR HORN....$250/ HR
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
> > > hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There's
> > > also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is
> > > for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential
> > > and privileged information or otherwise protected by law. Any unauthorized
> > > review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the
> > > intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy
> > > all copies of the original message.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:MouthpieceW ork@ yahoogroups. com]
> > > On Behalf Of tenorman1952
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 9:28 AM
> > > To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > When a customer brings in an old 6M, Truetone, Balanced Action, or
> > > > Martin that they truly love the sound on and ask can you do anything for
> > > > this note or set of notes so I don't have to fight the pitch as much, as
> > > > a technician I want to learn and develop the skills to be able to help
> > > > them.
> > >
> > > I have spent many, many hours correcting intonation issues on some
> > > instruments, and the time spent is very difficult to recover from the
> > > customer. Correcting one note will often affect others, or perhaps the
> > > entire register. I have even made special mouthpieces for particularly
> > > troublesome instruments. The time involved is a killer.
> > >
> > > Paul C.
> > >
> >
>
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
I do not take the harmonic series into account other than doing things I believe will help altissimo response.
________________________________
From: chedoggy <chedoggy@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 9:47:21 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
I was about to "node off" :) reading the most recent posts when I wondered how refacers take the harmonic series into account when refacing a mouthpiece or modifying baffles. My playing experience tells me that mouthpiece facing including designed resistance in the curve makes a large difference on the overtone series in terms of producing harmonics within the series and intonation. Sorry to interrupt.
FROM: lancelotburt (MartinMods)
SUBJECT: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
Unless your mouthpiece design or modification strategy has absolutely nothing to do with any aspect of tonal quality, then it deals almost exclusively with modifying the amplitude relationships of the harmonic series (integral harmonic resonances), whether you know it or not. The harmonic series is only everything about the sound of any instrument. Generally, a deeper understanding of the nature of a thing, is an asset when manipulating it in the practice of an art.
________________________________
From: Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 11:29:26 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
I do not take the harmonic series into account other than doing things I believe will help altissimo response.
________________________________
From: chedoggy <chedoggy@earthlink. net>
To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 9:47:21 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
I was about to "node off" :) reading the most recent posts when I wondered how refacers take the harmonic series into account when refacing a mouthpiece or modifying baffles. My playing experience tells me that mouthpiece facing including designed resistance in the curve makes a large difference on the overtone series in terms of producing harmonics within the series and intonation. Sorry to interrupt.
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
You are correct in that we listen to sound and it is made up of these frequencies. We listen for bright/dark and a few other variations. But I do not think many of us play test through the harmonic series to decide where the next adjustment needs to be made. Maybe we should but I'm not sure we will be able to consistently scratch the right itch. We have a shot at baffle adjustments. But I think facing adjustments would be very difficult to do to obtain a percieved harmonic series target.
________________________________
From: MartinMods <lancelotburt@yahoo.com>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 12:40:03 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
Unless your mouthpiece design or modification strategy has absolutely nothing to do with any aspect of tonal quality, then it deals almost exclusively with modifying the amplitude relationships of the harmonic series (integral harmonic resonances), whether you know it or not. The harmonic series is only everything about the sound of any instrument. Generally, a deeper understanding of the nature of a thing, is an asset when manipulating it in the practice of an art.
________________________________
From: Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@yahoo. com>
To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 11:29:26 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
I do not take the harmonic series into account other than doing things I believe will help altissimo response.
________________________________
From: chedoggy <chedoggy@earthlink. net>
To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 9:47:21 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
I was about to "node off" :) reading the most recent posts when I wondered how refacers take the harmonic series into account when refacing a mouthpiece or modifying baffles. My playing experience tells me that mouthpiece facing including designed resistance in the curve makes a large difference on the overtone series in terms of producing harmonics within the series and intonation. Sorry to interrupt.
FROM: lancelotburt (MartinMods)
SUBJECT: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
Facing adjustments certainly would be difficult.
Baffles - for us, at this point, for example, adjusting a steady tone is a matter of associating the aural image with the physical alteration - this undesired sound means do this here to get this desired sound. One can easily add to that, the appropriate spectral picture at each play test, until seeing the picture calls up the aural image, etc. Further, understanding the spectral picture and overtone relationships, lets one link what's going on in the mouthpiece to the related areas in the player's vocal tract, the neck, the body, the tone hole, and the open hole lattice. It's an energy system and everything is interrelated. Surely, as with doctors, one needs a thorough understanding of the complete working system in order to efficiently diagnose and cure the patient. This would take some time and study, but is far from impossible.
________________________________
From: Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@yahoo.com>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 1:34:01 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
You are correct in that we listen to sound and it is made up of these frequencies. We listen for bright/dark and a few other variations. But I do not think many of us play test through the harmonic series to decide where the next adjustment needs to be made. Maybe we should but I'm not sure we will be able to consistently scratch the right itch. We have a shot at baffle adjustments. But I think facing adjustments would be very difficult to do to obtain a percieved harmonic series target.
________________________________
From: MartinMods <lancelotburt@ yahoo.com>
To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 12:40:03 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
Unless your mouthpiece design or modification strategy has absolutely nothing to do with any aspect of tonal quality, then it deals almost exclusively with modifying the amplitude relationships of the harmonic series (integral harmonic resonances), whether you know it or not. The harmonic series is only everything about the sound of any instrument. Generally, a deeper understanding of the nature of a thing, is an asset when manipulating it in the practice of an art.
________________________________
From: Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@yahoo. com>
To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 11:29:26 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
I do not take the harmonic series into account other than doing things I believe will help altissimo response.
________________________________
From: chedoggy <chedoggy@earthlink. net>
To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 9:47:21 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
I was about to "node off" :) reading the most recent posts when I wondered how refacers take the harmonic series into account when refacing a mouthpiece or modifying baffles. My playing experience tells me that mouthpiece facing including designed resistance in the curve makes a large difference on the overtone series in terms of producing harmonics within the series and intonation. Sorry to interrupt.
FROM: jbtsax (John)
SUBJECT: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
Isn't that essentially what I said that you replied "not really" to? If you really want to impress me, go to p. 104 in Ferron and explain how he comes up with dividing the differences in wavelengths by 3 to find the distance between overtones. I am completely baffled at this one. John --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, <kymarto123@...> wrote: > > Here is a simple explanation from USNW: > > In the first register, the first and third harmonics are strong, and the second is weak. This preponderance of odd harmonics gives the clarinet in its low range the characteristic 'hollow' sound. As one ascends in the clarino register and above, however, the even harmonics begin to > lose their systematic weakness. Consequently the sound is brighter, fuller and, unless one is careful, louder. Playing a passage across the break, one tries to hide this difference in timbre and loudness. > The spectra of most of the notes in the clarino register have both odd and even harmonics and the associated bright, full tone, rather than just the odd harmonics and 'hollow' sound of the chalumeau register. In the chalumeau register there are impedance peaks near the third, fifth > and seventh harmonics, whereas there are 'valleys' corresponding to the second, fourth and sixth. Beyond that, the peaks are no longer in accurate, harmonic ratios and the effect disappears. For the low notes in the chalumeau register, this high frequency inharmonicity is due to the > bell, for higher notes it is due to the effects of open tone holes. > In the clarino register, even the third and fifth harmonics of the note played (which would be the ninth and fifteenth harmonics of the corresponding note in the chalumeau register) are up in the frequency ratio where the bore is inharmonic, because of the bell and tone hole effects. > > Toby > > John <jtalcott47@...> wrote: > Apparently we are both right. > > Harmonics of D1: D1 D2 A2 D3 F#3 A3 C4 D4 E4 F#5 > Harmonics of D2: D2 D3 A3 D4 F#5 > > I have never noticed the relationship till now. It is interesting that only the odd numbered harmonics are produced with any strength in the low register of the clarinet, but when played in the upper register there are both even and odd harmonics present. In a way this is the the converse of > the saxophone. > > John > > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@> wrote: > > > > John, > > > > It's not the odd harmonics, it just forms a new regime on the D5 with it's integral relationship resonances, since the D4 is detuned and damped so much, It can not participate. The regime is not super stable, as attempting to over-blow the overtones shifts you back to those of D4 again. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > > From: John jtalcott47@ > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 11:57:20 AM > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes > > > > > > That's what I thought too. You can check it out at Saxophone acoustics Print the harmonic spectrum for the Tenor sax D4 and D5 and then overlay one over the other. Also do G4 and G5. It is plain to see that the odd numbered harmonics are missing in the series for the higher octave note. > Very interesting . . . . > > > > The sequence of overtones you listed are still those of the 1st harmonic (fundamental) ---you are just starting on the second one. One might try to produce overtones playing D with the octave key and see what happens. > > > > John > > > > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > John, > > > > > > The second register is based upon the overtone series of the first octave, since it is merely an overblown low note's 2nd harmonic mode. So, the overtones of D2 are, A2, D3, F#3, A3, C4, etc... You can demonstrate this easily by over-blowing the sequence on your horn. > > > > > > MM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > From: John jtalcott47@ .. > > > To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com > > > Sent: Sun, December 27, 2009 5:28:22 PM > > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes > > > > > > > > > I think it would be a great idea to take the New vs Vintage arguments over to Steve's forum. This was a good thread on the basics of acoustics until it got hijacked. To bring it back to the general topic: > > > > > > I have been studying the saxophone sound spectrum graphs at the UNSW site and have discovered that in the second register it looks as if the notes have only the even numbered overtones. Is this true, and does anyone know the explanation for this. > > > > > > This one piece of information, if it is true, makes a great deal difference in the location of the nodes of a notes harmonics because only certain whole number multiples of the frequency of the note played are included. > > > > > > John > > > > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "STEVE GOODSON" <saxgourmet@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > I've overhauled HUNDREDS of vintage horns....even if you can get them to > > > > play in tune and respond properly, you've still got an old horn with all its > > > > limitations. .this is the main reason I got into the saxophone design > > > > business.... people often say "Coltrane and Parker sounded great on an old > > > > horn" and it's true that they did. But consider if you will how much better > > > > they might have sounded on an instrument that was not so much work to play! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The replication of the "sound" of horns of the past is easy, all it takes is > > > > the will to do so. Tastes have changed, and most manufacturers today > > > > manufacture horns that are brighter in sound. Trust me, if they were not > > > > selling, they would not be doing so! There is no mystery or magic involved. > > > > Some manufacturers (including my company and a few others) offer players > > > > options which result in a variety of available tones. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I really think this discussion is a little inappropriate for a mouthpiece > > > > refacing group, and invite the participants to move it to the saxophone > > > > repair group on Yahoo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc > > > > > > > > STEVE GOODSON > > > > > > > > SAXOPHONE DESIGNER TO THE STARS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > our products are ALL rated > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cid:339191121@ 25022009- 09F4 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve is a member of > > > > > > > > hd_logo NAMMbelieve2nasacon f_GIF > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PLEASE VISIT MY WEBSITES > > > > <http://www.nationof music.com/> http://www.nationof music.com/ (retail sales > > > > and discussion forum) > > > > <http://launch. groups.yahoo. com/group/ SaxophoneRepair/> > > > > http://launch. groups.yahoo. com/group/ SaxophoneRepair/ (discussion group) > > > > <http://www.saxgourm et.com/> http://www.saxgourm et.com/ (saxophone history > > > > and information) > > > > <http://saxophonetho ughts.blogspot. com/> > > > > http://saxophonetho ughts.blogspot. com/ (my personal saxophone blog) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > READ MY ARTICLES ON SAXOPHONE DESIGN IN EACH ISSUE OF THE SAXOPHONE JOURNAL > > > > The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic > > > > hallway where thieves > > > > > > > > BASIC SHOP RATE........ ........$ 100/HR > > > > > > > > IF YOU WATCH....... ......... .....$125/ HR > > > > > > > > IF YOU ASK QUESTIONS... ...$150/HR > > > > > > > > IF I HAVE TO LISTEN TO A CONCERT > > > > > > > > LONGER THAN FIVE MINUTES WHEN > > > > > > > > YOU PICK UP YOUR HORN....$250/ HR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic > > > > hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There's > > > > also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is > > > > for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential > > > > and privileged information or otherwise protected by law. Any unauthorized > > > > review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the > > > > intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy > > > > all copies of the original message. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:MouthpieceW ork@ yahoogroups. com] > > > > On Behalf Of tenorman1952 > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 9:28 AM > > > > To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com > > > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When a customer brings in an old 6M, Truetone, Balanced Action, or > > > > > Martin that they truly love the sound on and ask can you do anything for > > > > > this note or set of notes so I don't have to fight the pitch as much, as > > > > > a technician I want to learn and develop the skills to be able to help > > > > > them. > > > > > > > > I have spent many, many hours correcting intonation issues on some > > > > instruments, and the time spent is very difficult to recover from the > > > > customer. Correcting one note will often affect others, or perhaps the > > > > entire register. I have even made special mouthpieces for particularly > > > > troublesome instruments. The time involved is a killer. > > > > > > > > Paul C. > > > > > > > > > >
FROM: kymarto (kymarto123@...)
SUBJECT: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
Hi John,
When I said "not really" it was because it sounded to me like you were making some kind of generalized statement about saxes playing only odd harmonics in the higher modes. A cone always plays all harmonics, although the strength of some may vary depending on a lot of factors. The whole "odd only"
harmonic thing of cylinders applies to lossless cylinders of infinite length, so you only really get it in clarinets in the lowest notes.
Unfortunately I don't have Ferron, as it is not sold by Amazon, so I can't impress you there ;-)
Toby
John <jtalcott47@...> wrote: Isn't that essentially what I said that you replied "not really" to?
If you really want to impress me, go to p. 104 in Ferron and explain how he comes up with dividing the differences in wavelengths by 3 to find the distance between overtones. I am completely baffled at this one.
John
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, <kymarto123@...> wrote:
>
> Here is a simple explanation from USNW:
>
> In the first register, the first and third harmonics are strong, and the second is weak. This preponderance of odd harmonics gives the clarinet in its low range the characteristic 'hollow' sound. As one ascends in the clarino register and above, however, the even harmonics begin to
> lose their systematic weakness. Consequently the sound is brighter, fuller and, unless one is careful, louder. Playing a passage across the break, one tries to hide this difference in timbre and loudness.
> The spectra of most of the notes in the clarino register have both odd and even harmonics and the associated bright, full tone, rather than just the odd harmonics and 'hollow' sound of the chalumeau register. In the chalumeau register there are impedance peaks near the third, fifth
> and seventh harmonics, whereas there are 'valleys' corresponding to the second, fourth and sixth. Beyond that, the peaks are no longer in accurate, harmonic ratios and the effect disappears. For the low notes in the chalumeau register, this high frequency inharmonicity is due to the
> bell, for higher notes it is due to the effects of open tone holes.
> In the clarino register, even the third and fifth harmonics of the note played (which would be the ninth and fifteenth harmonics of the corresponding note in the chalumeau register) are up in the frequency ratio where the bore is inharmonic, because of the bell and tone hole effects.
>
> Toby
>
> John <jtalcott47@...> wrote:
> Apparently we are both right.
>
> Harmonics of D1: D1 D2 A2 D3 F#3 A3 C4 D4 E4 F#5
> Harmonics of D2: D2 D3 A3 D4 F#5
>
> I have never noticed the relationship till now. It is interesting that only the odd numbered harmonics are produced with any strength in the low register of the clarinet, but when played in the upper register there are both even and odd harmonics present. In a way this is the the converse of
> the saxophone.
>
> John
>
>
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@> wrote:
> >
> > John,
> >
> > It's not the odd harmonics, it just forms a new regime on the D5 with it's integral relationship resonances, since the D4 is detuned and damped so much, It can not participate. The regime is not super stable, as attempting to over-blow the overtones shifts you back to those of D4 again.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Forwarded Message ----
> > From: John jtalcott47@
> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 11:57:20 AM
> > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
> >
> >
> > That's what I thought too. You can check it out at Saxophone acoustics Print the harmonic spectrum for the Tenor sax D4 and D5 and then overlay one over the other. Also do G4 and G5. It is plain to see that the odd numbered harmonics are missing in the series for the higher octave note.
> Very interesting . . . .
> >
> > The sequence of overtones you listed are still those of the 1st harmonic (fundamental) ---you are just starting on the second one. One might try to produce overtones playing D with the octave key and see what happens.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > John,
> > >
> > > The second register is based upon the overtone series of the first octave, since it is merely an overblown low note's 2nd harmonic mode. So, the overtones of D2 are, A2, D3, F#3, A3, C4, etc... You can demonstrate this easily by over-blowing the sequence on your horn.
> > >
> > > MM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > From: John jtalcott47@ ..
> > > To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Sent: Sun, December 27, 2009 5:28:22 PM
> > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
> > >
> > >
> > > I think it would be a great idea to take the New vs Vintage arguments over to Steve's forum. This was a good thread on the basics of acoustics until it got hijacked. To bring it back to the general topic:
> > >
> > > I have been studying the saxophone sound spectrum graphs at the UNSW site and have discovered that in the second register it looks as if the notes have only the even numbered overtones. Is this true, and does anyone know the explanation for this.
> > >
> > > This one piece of information, if it is true, makes a great deal difference in the location of the nodes of a notes harmonics because only certain whole number multiples of the frequency of the note played are included.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "STEVE GOODSON" <saxgourmet@ ...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I've overhauled HUNDREDS of vintage horns....even if you can get them to
> > > > play in tune and respond properly, you've still got an old horn with all its
> > > > limitations. .this is the main reason I got into the saxophone design
> > > > business.... people often say "Coltrane and Parker sounded great on an old
> > > > horn" and it's true that they did. But consider if you will how much better
> > > > they might have sounded on an instrument that was not so much work to play!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The replication of the "sound" of horns of the past is easy, all it takes is
> > > > the will to do so. Tastes have changed, and most manufacturers today
> > > > manufacture horns that are brighter in sound. Trust me, if they were not
> > > > selling, they would not be doing so! There is no mystery or magic involved.
> > > > Some manufacturers (including my company and a few others) offer players
> > > > options which result in a variety of available tones.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I really think this discussion is a little inappropriate for a mouthpiece
> > > > refacing group, and invite the participants to move it to the saxophone
> > > > repair group on Yahoo.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
> > > >
> > > > STEVE GOODSON
> > > >
> > > > SAXOPHONE DESIGNER TO THE STARS
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > our products are ALL rated
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > cid:339191121@ 25022009- 09F4
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Steve is a member of
> > > >
> > > > hd_logo NAMMbelieve2nasacon f_GIF
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > PLEASE VISIT MY WEBSITES
> > > > <http://www.nationof music.com/> http://www.nationof music.com/ (retail sales
> > > > and discussion forum)
> > > > <http://launch. groups.yahoo. com/group/ SaxophoneRepair/>
> > > > http://launch. groups.yahoo. com/group/ SaxophoneRepair/ (discussion group)
> > > > <http://www.saxgourm et.com/> http://www.saxgourm et.com/ (saxophone history
> > > > and information)
> > > > <http://saxophonetho ughts.blogspot. com/>
> > > > http://saxophonetho ughts.blogspot. com/ (my personal saxophone blog)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > READ MY ARTICLES ON SAXOPHONE DESIGN IN EACH ISSUE OF THE SAXOPHONE JOURNAL
> > > > The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
> > > > hallway where thieves
> > > >
> > > > BASIC SHOP RATE........ ........$ 100/HR
> > > >
> > > > IF YOU WATCH....... ......... .....$125/ HR
> > > >
> > > > IF YOU ASK QUESTIONS... ...$150/HR
> > > >
> > > > IF I HAVE TO LISTEN TO A CONCERT
> > > >
> > > > LONGER THAN FIVE MINUTES WHEN
> > > >
> > > > YOU PICK UP YOUR HORN....$250/ HR
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
> > > > hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There's
> > > > also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is
> > > > for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential
> > > > and privileged information or otherwise protected by law. Any unauthorized
> > > > review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the
> > > > intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy
> > > > all copies of the original message.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:MouthpieceW ork@ yahoogroups. com]
> > > > On Behalf Of tenorman1952
> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 9:28 AM
> > > > To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > When a customer brings in an old 6M, Truetone, Balanced Action, or
> > > > > Martin that they truly love the sound on and ask can you do anything for
> > > > > this note or set of notes so I don't have to fight the pitch as much, as
> > > > > a technician I want to learn and develop the skills to be able to help
> > > > > them.
> > > >
> > > > I have spent many, many hours correcting intonation issues on some
> > > > instruments, and the time spent is very difficult to recover from the
> > > > customer. Correcting one note will often affect others, or perhaps the
> > > > entire register. I have even made special mouthpieces for particularly
> > > > troublesome instruments. The time involved is a killer.
> > > >
> > > > Paul C.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
FROM: kymarto (kymarto123@...)
SUBJECT: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
In talking to Joe Wolfe I noticed that he consistently will not venture into the more subtle territories of fine adjustments. "We don't have any numbers for that" was a characteristic response. What I get from this is that with all the complexities involved in the final sound, it is really next to
impossible at the present state of the science to get further than a first approximation. As you mentioned, everything affects everything. The science gets us in the ballpark, yes, but past that it is still mostly a matter of empirical tweaking, AFAIK.
For example, I have two different flute headjoints with barely measurable differences in the contraction. The playing characteristics are markedly different. It is true that they have different embouchure hole designs, but I have play tested scores of others with both of these designs and there is
a wide variation in the way these play and sound, with naught but microscopic differences in the actual geometry. Here science is totally lost, and it is totally up to black art...
My point is that I think one cannot really have a "thorough understanding" of all aspects of the system, although clearly the more one understands what does what, the more ability s/he will have in doing the right empirical experiments.
Toby
MartinMods <lancelotburt@...> wrote:
Facing adjustments certainly would be difficult.
Baffles - for us, at this point, for example, adjusting a steady tone is a matter of associating the aural image with the physical alteration - this undesired sound means do this here to get this desired sound. One can easily add to that, the appropriate spectral picture at each play test, until
seeing the picture calls up the aural image, etc. Further, understanding the spectral picture and overtone relationships, lets one link what's going on in the mouthpiece to the related areas in the player's vocal tract, the neck, the body, the tone hole, and the open hole lattice. It's an
energy system and everything is interrelated. Surely, as with doctors, one needs a thorough understanding of the complete working system in order to efficiently diagnose and cure the patient. This would take some time and study, but is far from impossible.
---------------------------------
From: Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 1:34:01 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
You are correct in that we listen to sound and it is made up of these frequencies. We listen for bright/dark and a few other variations. But I do not think many of us play test through the harmonic series to decide where the next adjustment needs to be made. Maybe we should but I'm not sure we
will be able to consistently scratch the right itch. We have a shot at baffle adjustments. But I think facing adjustments would be very difficult to do to obtain a percieved harmonic series target.
---------------------------------
From: MartinMods <lancelotburt@ yahoo.com>
To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 12:40:03 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
Unless your mouthpiece design or modification strategy has absolutely nothing to do with any aspect of tonal quality, then it deals almost exclusively with modifying the amplitude relationships of the harmonic series (integral harmonic resonances), whether you know it or not. The harmonic series
is only everything about the sound of any instrument. Generally, a deeper understanding of the nature of a thing, is an asset when manipulating it in the practice of an art.
---------------------------------
From: Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@yahoo. com>
To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 11:29:26 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
I do not take the harmonic series into account other than doing things I believe will help altissimo response.
---------------------------------
From: chedoggy <chedoggy@earthlink. net>
To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 9:47:21 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
$Bo;(B�
I was about to "node off" :) reading the most recent posts when I wondered how refacers take the harmonic series into account when refacing a mouthpiece or modifying baffles. My playing experience tells me that mouthpiece facing including designed resistance in the curve makes a large difference
on the overtone series in terms of producing harmonics within the series and intonation. Sorry to interrupt.
FROM: lancelotburt (MartinMods)
SUBJECT: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
You are missing the point entirely Toby.
As you readily noticed the difference between the two seemingly identical head joints in tone quality, you should be able to develop the skill to readily understand and describe this difference in terms of the amplitude and alignment relationships of the harmonic resonance modes - i.e., head joint A had a marked .0.5 db increase in the 3rd mode over that of the 2nd mode at higher dynamic levels.
With this ability as second nature, those empirical adjustments might become a little more systematic.
________________________________
From: "kymarto123@..." <kymarto123@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, December 30, 2009 1:59:03 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
In talking to Joe Wolfe I noticed that he consistently will not venture into the more subtle territories of fine adjustments. "We don't have any numbers for that" was a characteristic response. What I get from this is that with all the complexities involved in the final sound, it is really next to impossible at the present state of the science to get further than a first approximation. As you mentioned, everything affects everything. The science gets us in the ballpark, yes, but past that it is still mostly a matter of empirical tweaking, AFAIK.
For example, I have two different flute headjoints with barely measurable differences in the contraction. The playing characteristics are markedly different. It is true that they have different embouchure hole designs, but I have play tested scores of others with both of these designs and there is a wide variation in the way these play and sound, with naught but microscopic differences in the actual geometry. Here science is totally lost, and it is totally up to black art...
My point is that I think one cannot really have a "thorough understanding" of all aspects of the system, although clearly the more one understands what does what, the more ability s/he will have in doing the right empirical experiments.
Toby
MartinMods <lancelotburt@ yahoo.com> wrote:
>Facing
> adjustments certainly would be difficult.
>
>>Baffles - for us, at this point, for example, adjusting a steady tone is a matter of associating the aural image with the physical alteration - this undesired sound means do this here to get this desired sound. One can easily add to that, the appropriate spectral picture at each play test,
> until seeing the picture calls up the aural image, etc. Further, understanding the spectral picture and overtone relationships, lets one link what's going on in the mouthpiece to the related areas in the player's vocal tract, the neck, the body, the tone hole, and the open hole
> lattice. It's an energy system and everything is interrelated. Surely, as with doctors, one needs a thorough understanding of the complete working system in order to efficiently diagnose and cure the patient. This would take some time and study, but is far from impossible.
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@yahoo. com>
>To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
>Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 1:34:01 PM
>Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
>
>
>You are correct in that we listen to sound and it is made up of these frequencies. We listen for
> bright/dark and a few other variations. But I do not think many of us play test through the harmonic series to decide where the next adjustment needs to be made. Maybe we should but I'm not sure we will be able to consistently scratch the right itch. We have a shot at baffle
> adjustments. But I think facing adjustments would be very difficult to do to obtain a percieved harmonic series target.
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: MartinMods <lancelotburt@ yahoo.com>
>To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
>Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 12:40:03 PM
>Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
>
>
>Unless your mouthpiece design or modification strategy has absolutely nothing to do with any aspect
> of tonal quality, then it deals almost exclusively with modifying the amplitude relationships of the harmonic series (integral harmonic resonances), whether you know it or not. The harmonic series is only everything about the sound of any
> instrument. Generally, a deeper understanding of the nature of a thing, is an asset when manipulating it in the practice of an art.
>
>
________________________________
From: Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@yahoo. com>
>To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
>Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 11:29:26 AM
>Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
>
>
>I do not take the harmonic series into account other than doing things I believe will help altissimo response.
>
>>
>
________________________________
From: chedoggy <chedoggy@earthlink. net>
>To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
>Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 9:47:21 AM
>Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
>
>
>鏤�
>I was about to "node off" :) reading the most recent posts when I wondered how refacers take the harmonic series into account when refacing a mouthpiece or modifying baffles. My playing
> experience tells me that mouthpiece facing including designed resistance in the curve makes a large difference on the overtone series in terms of producing harmonics within the series and intonation. Sorry to interrupt.
>
>
>
>
>
>
FROM: kymarto (kymarto123@...)
SUBJECT: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
Here I agree. Developing analytical skills or using equipment to analyze the differences can never hurt. I only question whether it is really possible to know what parameters cause these changes. Certainly it is possible, though, to test and catalog various permutations in the variables and thus
to at least have a guide to what does what. Further experience could lead to understanding how these parameters work in conjunction with each other.
This is the kind of skill and understanding that master craftsmen must have, whether they catalog their knowledge formally or just let it roll around in their heads and do everything by "feel".
We had a debate some time ago about Stradivari violins. Many people went on about special woods grown during the Maunder Minimum, while one scientist is sure that he solved the puzzle: having to do with how the wood was "cured". However I am convinced that while the wood did make some difference,
the real "secret" was in Stradivari, Guarneri and others knowing precisely how to shape the plates, through long experience and experimentation.
Saxes are a bit more difficult to "shape" due to the necessity of machining, but certainly there is no reason that one could not become a master builder of saxes, as they were of violins, based on similar knowledge and skill.
Toby
MartinMods <lancelotburt@...> wrote:
You are missing the point entirely Toby.
As you readily noticed the difference between the two seemingly identical head joints in tone quality, you should be able to develop the skill to readily understand and describe this difference in terms of the amplitude and alignment relationships of the harmonic resonance modes - i.e., head joint
A had a marked .0.5 db increase in the 3rd mode over that of the 2nd mode at higher dynamic levels.
With this ability as second nature, those empirical adjustments might become a little more systematic.
---------------------------------
From: "kymarto123@..." <kymarto123@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, December 30, 2009 1:59:03 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
In talking to Joe Wolfe I noticed that he consistently will not venture into the more subtle territories of fine adjustments. "We don't have any numbers for that" was a characteristic response. What I get from this is that with all the complexities involved in
the final sound, it is really next to impossible at the present state of the science to get further than a first approximation. As you mentioned, everything affects everything. The science gets us in the ballpark, yes, but past that it is still mostly a matter of empirical tweaking, AFAIK.
For example, I have two different flute headjoints with barely measurable differences in the contraction. The playing characteristics are markedly different. It is true that they have different embouchure hole designs, but I have play tested scores of others with both of these designs and there
is a wide variation in the way these play and sound, with naught but microscopic differences in the actual geometry. Here science is totally lost, and it is totally up to black art...
My point is that I think one cannot really have a "thorough understanding" of all aspects of the system, although clearly the more one understands what does what, the more ability s/he will have in doing the right empirical experiments.
Toby
MartinMods <lancelotburt@ yahoo.com> wrote:
Facing adjustments certainly would be difficult.
Baffles - for us, at this point, for example, adjusting a steady tone is a matter of associating the aural image with the physical alteration - this undesired sound means do this here to get this desired sound. One can easily add to that, the appropriate spectral picture at each play test,
until seeing the picture calls up the aural image, etc. Further, understanding the spectral picture and overtone relationships, lets one link what's going on in the mouthpiece to the related areas in the player's vocal tract, the neck, the body, the tone hole, and the open hole lattice. It's
an energy system and everything is interrelated. Surely, as with doctors, one needs a thorough understanding of the complete working system in order to efficiently diagnose and cure the patient. This would take some time and study, but is far from impossible.
---------------------------------
From: Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@yahoo. com>
To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 1:34:01 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
You are correct in that we listen to sound and it is made up of these frequencies. We listen for bright/dark and a few other variations. But I do not think many of us play test through the harmonic series to decide where the next adjustment needs to be made. Maybe we should but I'm not sure
we will be able to consistently scratch the right itch. We have a shot at baffle adjustments. But I think facing adjustments would be very difficult to do to obtain a percieved harmonic series target.
---------------------------------
From: MartinMods <lancelotburt@ yahoo.com>
To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 12:40:03 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
Unless your mouthpiece design or modification strategy has absolutely nothing to do with any aspect of tonal quality, then it deals almost exclusively with modifying the amplitude relationships of the harmonic series (integral harmonic resonances), whether you know it or not. The harmonic
series is only everything about the sound of any instrument. Generally, a deeper understanding of the nature of a thing, is an asset when manipulating it in the practice of an art.
---------------------------------
From: Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@yahoo. com>
To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 11:29:26 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
I do not take the harmonic series into account other than doing things I believe will help altissimo response.
---------------------------------
From: chedoggy <chedoggy@earthlink. net>
To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 9:47:21 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
$Bqo!"(B�$B%9(B
I was about to "node off" :) reading the most recent posts when I wondered how refacers take the harmonic series into account when refacing a mouthpiece or modifying baffles. My playing experience tells me that mouthpiece facing including designed resistance in the curve makes a large
difference on the overtone series in terms of producing harmonics within the series and intonation. Sorry to interrupt.
FROM: kymarto (kymarto123@...)
SUBJECT: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
I think most people work for experience, having found that certain modifications lead to certain (more or less) consistent results.
It should be possible to make a more formal analysis, by taking a mpc, adding and subtracting material at various points, and recording the changes in the spectrum of the played note.
However with mpcs particularly, there is more to it than just the harmonic spectrum, as determined by the interior shape. The tip opening and curve of the lay will change the behavior of the reed, and this can not only change the harmonic spectrum, but how the reed responds to the player's
embouchure and breath and the initial attack.
The initial transient especially is important in determining how the whole setup feels, and gives a certain character to the sound that is different from its steady-state behavior.
We all know, for instance, how different different reeds sound and play. Not only will different reeds give very different harmonic spectra, they also play very differently.
Toby
chedoggy <chedoggy@...> wrote: $Bo;(B�
I was about to "node off" :) reading the most recent posts when I wondered how refacers take the harmonic series into account when refacing a mouthpiece or modifying baffles. My playing experience tells me that mouthpiece facing including designed resistance in the curve makes a large
difference on the overtone series in terms of producing harmonics within the series and intonation. Sorry to interrupt.
----- Original Message -----
From: kymarto123@...
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:11 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
Here is a simple explanation from USNW:
In the first register, the first and third harmonics are strong, and the second is weak. This preponderance of odd harmonics gives the clarinet in its low range the characteristic 'hollow' sound. As one ascends in the clarino register and above, however, the even harmonics begin to lose
their systematic weakness. Consequently the sound is brighter, fuller and, unless one is careful, louder. Playing a passage across the break, one tries to hide this difference in timbre and loudness.
The spectra of most of the notes in the clarino register have both odd and even harmonics and the associated bright, full tone, rather than just the odd harmonics and 'hollow' sound of the chalumeau register. In the chalumeau register there are impedance peaks near the third, fifth and
seventh harmonics, whereas there are 'valleys' corresponding to the second, fourth and sixth. Beyond that, the peaks are no longer in accurate, harmonic ratios and the effect disappears. For the low notes in the chalumeau register, this high frequency inharmonicity is due to the bell,
for higher notes it is due to the effects of open tone holes.
In the clarino register, even the third and fifth harmonics of the note played (which would be the ninth and fifteenth harmonics of the corresponding note in the chalumeau register) are up in the frequency ratio where the bore is inharmonic, because of the bell and tone hole effects.
Toby
John <jtalcott47@...> wrote:
Apparently we are both right.
Harmonics of D1: D1 D2 A2 D3 F#3 A3 C4 D4 E4 F#5
Harmonics of D2: D2 D3 A3 D4 F#5
I have never noticed the relationship till now. It is interesting that only the odd numbered harmonics are produced with any strength in the low register of the clarinet, but when played in the upper register there are both even and odd harmonics present. In a way this is
the the converse of the saxophone.
John
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@...> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> It's not the odd harmonics, it just forms a new regime on the D5 with it's integral relationship resonances, since the D4 is detuned and damped so much, It can not participate. The regime is not super stable, as attempting to over-blow the overtones shifts you back to those
of D4 again.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Forwarded Message ----
> From: John jtalcott47@...
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 11:57:20 AM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
>
>
> That's what I thought too. You can check it out at Saxophone acoustics Print the harmonic spectrum for the Tenor sax D4 and D5 and then overlay one over the other. Also do G4 and G5. It is plain to see that the odd numbered harmonics are missing in the series for the higher
octave note. Very interesting . . . .
>
> The sequence of overtones you listed are still those of the 1st harmonic (fundamental) ---you are just starting on the second one. One might try to produce overtones playing D with the octave key and see what happens.
>
> John
>
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > John,
> >
> > The second register is based upon the overtone series of the first octave, since it is merely an overblown low note's 2nd harmonic mode. So, the overtones of D2 are, A2, D3, F#3, A3, C4, etc... You can demonstrate this easily by over-blowing the sequence on your horn.
> >
> > MM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > From: John jtalcott47@ ..
> > To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Sun, December 27, 2009 5:28:22 PM
> > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
> >
> >
> > I think it would be a great idea to take the New vs Vintage arguments over to Steve's forum. This was a good thread on the basics of acoustics until it got hijacked. To bring it back to the general topic:
> >
> > I have been studying the saxophone sound spectrum graphs at the UNSW site and have discovered that in the second register it looks as if the notes have only the even numbered overtones. Is this true, and does anyone know the explanation for this.
> >
> > This one piece of information, if it is true, makes a great deal difference in the location of the nodes of a notes harmonics because only certain whole number multiples of the frequency of the note played are included.
> >
> > John
> >
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "STEVE GOODSON" <saxgourmet@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I've overhauled HUNDREDS of vintage horns....even if you can get them to
> > > play in tune and respond properly, you've still got an old horn with all its
> > > limitations. .this is the main reason I got into the saxophone design
> > > business.... people often say "Coltrane and Parker sounded great on an old
> > > horn" and it's true that they did. But consider if you will how much better
> > > they might have sounded on an instrument that was not so much work to play!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The replication of the "sound" of horns of the past is easy, all it takes is
> > > the will to do so. Tastes have changed, and most manufacturers today
> > > manufacture horns that are brighter in sound. Trust me, if they were not
> > > selling, they would not be doing so! There is no mystery or magic involved.
> > > Some manufacturers (including my company and a few others) offer players
> > > options which result in a variety of available tones.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I really think this discussion is a little inappropriate for a mouthpiece
> > > refacing group, and invite the participants to move it to the saxophone
> > > repair group on Yahoo.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
> > >
> > > STEVE GOODSON
> > >
> > > SAXOPHONE DESIGNER TO THE STARS
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > our products are ALL rated
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > cid:339191121@ 25022009- 09F4
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Steve is a member of
> > >
> > > hd_logo NAMMbelieve2nasacon f_GIF
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > PLEASE VISIT MY WEBSITES
> > > <http://www.nationof music.com/> http://www.nationof music.com/ (retail sales
> > > and discussion forum)
> > > <http://launch. groups.yahoo. com/group/ SaxophoneRepair/>
> > > http://launch. groups.yahoo. com/group/ SaxophoneRepair/ (discussion group)
> > > <http://www.saxgourm et.com/> http://www.saxgourm et.com/ (saxophone history
> > > and information)
> > > <http://saxophonetho ughts.blogspot. com/>
> > > http://saxophonetho ughts.blogspot. com/ (my personal saxophone blog)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > READ MY ARTICLES ON SAXOPHONE DESIGN IN EACH ISSUE OF THE SAXOPHONE JOURNAL
> > > The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
> > > hallway where thieves
> > >
> > > BASIC SHOP RATE........ ........$ 100/HR
> > >
> > > IF YOU WATCH....... ......... .....$125/ HR
> > >
> > > IF YOU ASK QUESTIONS... ...$150/HR
> > >
> > > IF I HAVE TO LISTEN TO A CONCERT
> > >
> > > LONGER THAN FIVE MINUTES WHEN
> > >
> > > YOU PICK UP YOUR HORN....$250/ HR
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
> > > hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There's
> > > also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is
> > > for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential
> > > and privileged information or otherwise protected by law. Any unauthorized
> > > review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the
> > > intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy
> > > all copies of the original message.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:MouthpieceW ork@ yahoogroups. com]
> > > On Behalf Of tenorman1952
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 9:28 AM
> > > To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > When a customer brings in an old 6M, Truetone, Balanced Action, or
> > > > Martin that they truly love the sound on and ask can you do anything for
> > > > this note or set of notes so I don't have to fight the pitch as much, as
> > > > a technician I want to learn and develop the skills to be able to help
> > > > them.
> > >
> > > I have spent many, many hours correcting intonation issues on some
> > > instruments, and the time spent is very difficult to recover from the
> > > customer. Correcting one note will often affect others, or perhaps the
> > > entire register. I have even made special mouthpieces for particularly
> > > troublesome instruments. The time involved is a killer.
> > >
> > > Paul C.
> > >
> >
>
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Ferron
>>>Toby wrote:
Unfortunately I don't have Ferron, as it is not sold by Amazon, so I can't impress you there ;-) <<<
I can help you get a copy. I like Amazon but there are plenty of others who sell it.
FROM: tenorman1952 (tenorman1952)
SUBJECT: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote: > > I do not take the harmonic series into account other than doing things I believe will help altissimo response. > >  The harmonic series for the saxophone is both even and odd whole number multiples of the fundamental. The 2nd and 3rd (2x and 3x fundamental freq), for the saxophone, are unusual in that they are always stronger than the fundamental, though we hear the fundamental as the "frequency". These add together to produce roughly a "sawtooth" wave. The upper overtones usually taper off as you go higher, though the exact amount depends on the player, mouthpiece, sax, reed, and other factors. The clarinet has only odd numbered overtones (3x, 5x, 7x, etc), which add together to produce roughly a "square" wave, and that gives the clarinet its characteristic tone. A saxophone mouthpiece can be faced to result in more of the odd overtones by facing with a very narrow tip opening, a long facing, and a hard reed. This mouthpiece would suddenly open, and suddenly close, without the stiff reed following the waveshape very well. It would have a somewhat "woodier" tone. Examples, Caravan, Rascher, Larry Teal mouthpieces. As far as shaping the interior of the mouthpiece to try to affect certain overtones, realize that the nodes and antinodes are located in different places for each pitch. There is no "one size fits all" solution. When refacing a mouthpiece I concern myself with getting a flat table, establishing a smooth radial curve of an appropriate length, good angle for the baffle, good even tip rail, and finally, cosmetic issues. Altering chamber shape and volume are not part of a regular refacing job. This is getting into more complicated modifications that may be done at the same time. I will say that I have improved as many mouthpiece by filling in the chamber or baffle as I have by removing material. The important thing is, what are the results desired by the player? And what worked for one customer may not work for another. This goes along with the mistaken idea that if you supply your sax section with identical mouthpieces they will sound the same and blend well. No, not in a million years. I have worked with sax sections that by supplying the players with different, sometimes vastly different mouthpieces, we were able to tone down the bright, edgy players, or put some sparkle in the dull tone of other players, and produce a more uniform section sound. And I'll leave with this thought... yes, there is never, ever a node at the reed/tip of mouthpiece. You can't produce a tone on the guitar by picking the string where it crosses the nut. Paul Coats
FROM: lancelotburt (MartinMods)
SUBJECT: Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
"there is never, ever a node at the reed/tip of mouthpiece. You can't
produce a tone on the guitar by picking the string where it crosses the
nut. "
The myth of this node would refer to the actual point of reflection at the mouthpiece end of the air column. That would be the impedance-induced reflection point (and a little different for each mode) when the reed was open, and the closed air column end when the reed was closed.
The guitar nut is not free to move. The reed tip is. If the guitar nut was mounted on a super strong bass sax reed tip, and the butt end of the reed attached stationary to the guitar body, then striking the string where it crossed the nut would certainly produce a sound. Would that be a node?
________________________________
From: tenorman1952 <tenorman1952@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, December 30, 2009 1:01:39 PM
Subject: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
--- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@ ...> wrote:
>
> I do not take the harmonic series into account other than doing things I believe will help altissimo response.
>
> Â
The harmonic series for the saxophone is both even and odd whole number multiples of the fundamental. The 2nd and 3rd (2x and 3x fundamental freq), for the saxophone, are unusual in that they are always stronger than the fundamental, though we hear the fundamental as the "frequency".
These add together to produce roughly a "sawtooth" wave.
The upper overtones usually taper off as you go higher, though the exact amount depends on the player, mouthpiece, sax, reed, and other factors.
The clarinet has only odd numbered overtones (3x, 5x, 7x, etc), which add together to produce roughly a "square" wave, and that gives the clarinet its characteristic tone.
A saxophone mouthpiece can be faced to result in more of the odd overtones by facing with a very narrow tip opening, a long facing, and a hard reed. This mouthpiece would suddenly open, and suddenly close, without the stiff reed following the waveshape very well. It would have a somewhat "woodier" tone. Examples, Caravan, Rascher, Larry Teal mouthpieces.
As far as shaping the interior of the mouthpiece to try to affect certain overtones, realize that the nodes and antinodes are located in different places for each pitch. There is no "one size fits all" solution.
When refacing a mouthpiece I concern myself with getting a flat table, establishing a smooth radial curve of an appropriate length, good angle for the baffle, good even tip rail, and finally, cosmetic issues.
Altering chamber shape and volume are not part of a regular refacing job. This is getting into more complicated modifications that may be done at the same time. I will say that I have improved as many mouthpiece by filling in the chamber or baffle as I have by removing material.
The important thing is, what are the results desired by the player? And what worked for one customer may not work for another. This goes along with the mistaken idea that if you supply your sax section with identical mouthpieces they will sound the same and blend well. No, not in a million years. I have worked with sax sections that by supplying the players with different, sometimes vastly different mouthpieces, we were able to tone down the bright, edgy players, or put some sparkle in the dull tone of other players, and produce a more uniform section sound.
And I'll leave with this thought... yes, there is never, ever a node at the reed/tip of mouthpiece. You can't produce a tone on the guitar by picking the string where it crosses the nut.
Paul Coats
FROM: jbtsax (John)
SUBJECT: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
Toby, I have sent an email on the topic. Ferron's the Saxophone is My Voice is available at musicmedic.com for about $30 if you want one. John --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, <kymarto123@...> wrote: > > Hi John, > > When I said "not really" it was because it sounded to me like you were making some kind of generalized statement about saxes playing only odd harmonics in the higher modes. A cone always plays all harmonics, although the strength of some may vary depending on a lot of factors. The whole "odd only" > harmonic thing of cylinders applies to lossless cylinders of infinite length, so you only really get it in clarinets in the lowest notes. > > Unfortunately I don't have Ferron, as it is not sold by Amazon, so I can't impress you there ;-) > > Toby > > John <jtalcott47@...> wrote: Isn't that essentially what I said that you replied "not really" to? > > If you really want to impress me, go to p. 104 in Ferron and explain how he comes up with dividing the differences in wavelengths by 3 to find the distance between overtones. I am completely baffled at this one. > > John > > --- In MouthpieceWork@...m, <kymarto123@> wrote: > > > > Here is a simple explanation from USNW: > > > > In the first register, the first and third harmonics are strong, and the second is weak. This preponderance of odd harmonics gives the clarinet in its low range the characteristic 'hollow' sound. As one ascends in the clarino register and above, however, the even harmonics begin to > > lose their systematic weakness. Consequently the sound is brighter, fuller and, unless one is careful, louder. Playing a passage across the break, one tries to hide this difference in timbre and loudness. > > The spectra of most of the notes in the clarino register have both odd and even harmonics and the associated bright, full tone, rather than just the odd harmonics and 'hollow' sound of the chalumeau register. In the chalumeau register there are impedance peaks near the third, fifth > > and seventh harmonics, whereas there are 'valleys' corresponding to the second, fourth and sixth. Beyond that, the peaks are no longer in accurate, harmonic ratios and the effect disappears. For the low notes in the chalumeau register, this high frequency inharmonicity is due to the > > bell, for higher notes it is due to the effects of open tone holes. > > In the clarino register, even the third and fifth harmonics of the note played (which would be the ninth and fifteenth harmonics of the corresponding note in the chalumeau register) are up in the frequency ratio where the bore is inharmonic, because of the bell and tone hole effects. > > > > Toby > > > > John <jtalcott47@> wrote: > > Apparently we are both right. > > > > Harmonics of D1: D1 D2 A2 D3 F#3 A3 C4 D4 E4 F#5 > > Harmonics of D2: D2 D3 A3 D4 F#5 > > > > I have never noticed the relationship till now. It is interesting that only the odd numbered harmonics are produced with any strength in the low register of the clarinet, but when played in the upper register there are both even and odd harmonics present. In a way this is the the converse of > > the saxophone. > > > > John > > > > > > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@> wrote: > > > > > > John, > > > > > > It's not the odd harmonics, it just forms a new regime on the D5 with it's integral relationship resonances, since the D4 is detuned and damped so much, It can not participate. The regime is not super stable, as attempting to over-blow the overtones shifts you back to those of D4 again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > > > From: John jtalcott47@ > > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 11:57:20 AM > > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes > > > > > > > > > That's what I thought too. You can check it out at Saxophone acoustics Print the harmonic spectrum for the Tenor sax D4 and D5 and then overlay one over the other. Also do G4 and G5. It is plain to see that the odd numbered harmonics are missing in the series for the higher octave note. > > Very interesting . . . . > > > > > > The sequence of overtones you listed are still those of the 1st harmonic (fundamental) ---you are just starting on the second one. One might try to produce overtones playing D with the octave key and see what happens. > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > John, > > > > > > > > The second register is based upon the overtone series of the first octave, since it is merely an overblown low note's 2nd harmonic mode. So, the overtones of D2 are, A2, D3, F#3, A3, C4, etc... You can demonstrate this easily by over-blowing the sequence on your horn. > > > > > > > > MM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > From: John jtalcott47@ .. > > > > To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com > > > > Sent: Sun, December 27, 2009 5:28:22 PM > > > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it would be a great idea to take the New vs Vintage arguments over to Steve's forum. This was a good thread on the basics of acoustics until it got hijacked. To bring it back to the general topic: > > > > > > > > I have been studying the saxophone sound spectrum graphs at the UNSW site and have discovered that in the second register it looks as if the notes have only the even numbered overtones. Is this true, and does anyone know the explanation for this. > > > > > > > > This one piece of information, if it is true, makes a great deal difference in the location of the nodes of a notes harmonics because only certain whole number multiples of the frequency of the note played are included. > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "STEVE GOODSON" <saxgourmet@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I've overhauled HUNDREDS of vintage horns....even if you can get them to > > > > > play in tune and respond properly, you've still got an old horn with all its > > > > > limitations. .this is the main reason I got into the saxophone design > > > > > business.... people often say "Coltrane and Parker sounded great on an old > > > > > horn" and it's true that they did. But consider if you will how much better > > > > > they might have sounded on an instrument that was not so much work to play! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The replication of the "sound" of horns of the past is easy, all it takes is > > > > > the will to do so. Tastes have changed, and most manufacturers today > > > > > manufacture horns that are brighter in sound. Trust me, if they were not > > > > > selling, they would not be doing so! There is no mystery or magic involved. > > > > > Some manufacturers (including my company and a few others) offer players > > > > > options which result in a variety of available tones. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I really think this discussion is a little inappropriate for a mouthpiece > > > > > refacing group, and invite the participants to move it to the saxophone > > > > > repair group on Yahoo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc > > > > > > > > > > STEVE GOODSON > > > > > > > > > > SAXOPHONE DESIGNER TO THE STARS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > our products are ALL rated > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cid:339191121@ 25022009- 09F4 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve is a member of > > > > > > > > > > hd_logo NAMMbelieve2nasacon f_GIF > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PLEASE VISIT MY WEBSITES > > > > > <http://www.nationof music.com/> http://www.nationof music.com/ (retail sales > > > > > and discussion forum) > > > > > <http://launch. groups.yahoo. com/group/ SaxophoneRepair/> > > > > > http://launch. groups.yahoo. com/group/ SaxophoneRepair/ (discussion group) > > > > > <http://www.saxgourm et.com/> http://www.saxgourm et.com/ (saxophone history > > > > > and information) > > > > > <http://saxophonetho ughts.blogspot. com/> > > > > > http://saxophonetho ughts.blogspot. com/ (my personal saxophone blog) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > READ MY ARTICLES ON SAXOPHONE DESIGN IN EACH ISSUE OF THE SAXOPHONE JOURNAL > > > > > The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic > > > > > hallway where thieves > > > > > > > > > > BASIC SHOP RATE........ ........$ 100/HR > > > > > > > > > > IF YOU WATCH....... ......... .....$125/ HR > > > > > > > > > > IF YOU ASK QUESTIONS... ...$150/HR > > > > > > > > > > IF I HAVE TO LISTEN TO A CONCERT > > > > > > > > > > LONGER THAN FIVE MINUTES WHEN > > > > > > > > > > YOU PICK UP YOUR HORN....$250/ HR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Music Business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic > > > > > hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There's > > > > > also a negative side." Hunter S. Thompson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is > > > > > for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential > > > > > and privileged information or otherwise protected by law. Any unauthorized > > > > > review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the > > > > > intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy > > > > > all copies of the original message. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:MouthpieceW ork@ yahoogroups. com] > > > > > On Behalf Of tenorman1952 > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 9:28 AM > > > > > To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com > > > > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When a customer brings in an old 6M, Truetone, Balanced Action, or > > > > > > Martin that they truly love the sound on and ask can you do anything for > > > > > > this note or set of notes so I don't have to fight the pitch as much, as > > > > > > a technician I want to learn and develop the skills to be able to help > > > > > > them. > > > > > > > > > > I have spent many, many hours correcting intonation issues on some > > > > > instruments, and the time spent is very difficult to recover from the > > > > > customer. Correcting one note will often affect others, or perhaps the > > > > > entire register. I have even made special mouthpieces for particularly > > > > > troublesome instruments. The time involved is a killer. > > > > > > > > > > Paul C. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
FROM: kymarto (kymarto123@...)
SUBJECT: Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
There is indeed a pressure antinode at the tip of the mpc. The vibration of the reed tip creates pressure waves while leaving the position of the air molecules basically alone. The flute, by contrast, has a velocity antinode at the embouchure hole. This is why the sax plays at the impedance maxima
of the tube and the flute plays at the minima.
The sax spectrum has a stronger 2nd harmonic peak only in the low register. Only the very lowest notes have the 3rd harmonic also stronger than the fundamental, and this also changes for the size of the horn. If you look at the UNSW database you will see that the sop sax has a stronger fundamental
by F1, whereas it exceeds the 2nd harmonic in strength on tenor only at C2. This has to do, roughly, with the difficulty of the small reed generator exciting the large mass of air in the bottom of the tube.
It is important to realize that the entire area under the reed is a pressure antinode for all notes. According to Benade, changing the baffle does its work by changing the Bernoulli forces at the reed tip and therefore the flow characteristics as determined by the reed, not by affecting nodes or
antinodes of the various notes to any great extent.
From Nederveen (pg 41): "Note that the pressures over the whole length of the reed are practically constant because there is a node there. Therefore the reed may be assumed to move entirely in the same phase."
On pg 437 of Benade's FMA you will find a diagram graphing the flow through the reed against the pressure differential between the player's mouth and that in the mpc. Only when the reed is nearly closed is there any effect from the Bernoulli force as determined by the baffle.
Scavone says this:
"Of particular interest, the resonance structure produced with the narrow chamber mouthpiece has a signi cantly greater high-frequency emphasis. The mouthpieces appear to impose formants on the air column resonant structure...While the narrow mouthpiece provides better normal mode tuning for
shorter air column lengths, the tuning e ffect of these diff erent designs seems negligible."
and:
"Given th eanalysis of Benade and Richards (1983) ,it is reasonable to expect that a saxophone mouthpiece which produces a characteristically 'dark' tone quality destructively influences the higher partials of the air column. In this sense, a long and narrow mouthpiece chamber may form a
better continuation of the conical bore to its apex, and allow more high harmonic participation in the regime of oscillation."
This is, therefore, not so much a case of detuning via nodes, as any node or antinode that fell under the area of the baffle--or even in the chamber--would only be a significant node of a very high partial with a very short wavelength. And if you think about it, that stubbly little mpc replaces
about 1/10 the length of the cone, meaning that all the nodes and antinode along that length are wiped out anyway. Volume or resonance mismatches in the mpc detune the modes.
And this is interesting: it turns out that in a conical tube with small truncation, the way that changes in mpc volume affect the modes is a second-order function: So it affects the 2nd mode 4x more than the 1st mode, the 3rd mode 9x more than the 1st, the 4th 16x more, etc. On sax, we never go
past the 3rd mode, but you can see how critical it is to get the internal volume and resonances correct. This is not the case with a cylinder.
"A saxophone mouthpiece can be faced to result in more of the odd overtones by facing with a very narrow tip opening, a long facing, and a hard reed. This mouthpiece would suddenly open, and suddenly close, without the stiff reed following the waveshape very well. It would have a somewhat
"woodier" tone. Examples, Caravan, Rascher, Larry Teal mouthpieces."
I have serious doubts about this statement. The flow characteristics of the reed can only be influenced by baffle shape, as noted in Benade, just before the reed closes. Lance and I have done quite a bit of digging into this point, and it turns out that the amount of time that the reed remains
open and closed is critically determined in the sax by the truncation ratio of the tube (which changes with every tube length). In the clarinet, by contrast, it is always just about 50/50. I have no idea what you mean by saying that the mpc would suddenly open and close without the reed following
the waveshape very well.
It is clear that the interior geometry of the mpc will have an effect on the composition of the partials, but it is not at all clear that one can emphasize the odd partials over the even ones, although it might be possible that a certain mpc configuration might by chance just happen to interfere
destructively with, say, the 2nd and 4th partial. Certainly, though, this does not have to do with the reed not following the waveform: the reed determines the waveform (in conjunction with the bore of course).
Toby
MartinMods <lancelotburt@...> wrote:
"there is never, ever a node at the reed/tip of mouthpiece. You can't produce a tone on the guitar by picking the string where it crosses the nut. "
The myth of this node would refer to the actual point of reflection at the mouthpiece end of the air column. That would be the impedance-induced reflection point (and a little different for each mode) when the reed was open, and the closed air column end when the reed was closed.
The guitar nut is not free to move. The reed tip is. If the guitar nut was mounted on a super strong bass sax reed tip, and the butt end of the reed attached stationary to the guitar body, then striking the string where it crossed the nut would certainly produce a sound. Would that be a node?
---------------------------------
From: tenorman1952 <tenorman1952@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, December 30, 2009 1:01:39 PM
Subject: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
--- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@ ...> wrote:
>
> I do not take$B>,!"(B the harmonic series$B>,!"(B into account other than doing things I believe will help altissimo response.
>
> $B>,!"(B
The harmonic series for the saxophone is both even and odd whole number multiples of the fundamental. The 2nd and 3rd (2x and 3x fundamental freq), for the saxophone, are unusual in that they are always stronger than the fundamental, though we hear the fundamental as the "frequency".
These add together to produce roughly a "sawtooth" wave.
The upper overtones usually taper off as you go higher, though the exact amount depends on the player, mouthpiece, sax, reed, and other factors.
The clarinet has only odd numbered overtones (3x, 5x, 7x, etc), which add together to produce roughly a "square" wave, and that gives the clarinet its characteristic tone.
A saxophone mouthpiece can be faced to result in more of the odd overtones by facing with a very narrow tip opening, a long facing, and a hard reed. This mouthpiece would suddenly open, and suddenly close, without the stiff reed following the waveshape very well. It would have a somewhat
"woodier" tone. Examples, Caravan, Rascher, Larry Teal mouthpieces.
As far as shaping the interior of the mouthpiece to try to affect certain overtones, realize that the nodes and antinodes are located in different places for each pitch. There is no "one size fits all" solution.
When refacing a mouthpiece I concern myself with getting a flat table, establishing a smooth radial curve of an appropriate length, good angle for the baffle, good even tip rail, and finally, cosmetic issues.
Altering chamber shape and volume are not part of a regular refacing job. This is getting into more complicated modifications that may be done at the same time. I will say that I have improved as many mouthpiece by filling in the chamber or baffle as I have by removing material.
The important thing is, what are the results desired by the player? And what worked for one customer may not work for another. This goes along with the mistaken idea that if you supply your sax section with identical mouthpieces they will sound the same and blend well. No, not in a million
years. I have worked with sax sections that by supplying the players with different, sometimes vastly different mouthpieces, we were able to tone down the bright, edgy players, or put some sparkle in the dull tone of other players, and produce a more uniform section sound.
And I'll leave with this thought... yes, there is never, ever a node at the reed/tip of mouthpiece. You can't produce a tone on the guitar by picking the string where it crosses the nut.
Paul Coats
FROM: kymarto (kymarto123@...)
SUBJECT: Re: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
Thanks John,
I'll check musicmedic and see about having it shipped here.
Toby
John <jtalcott47@...> wrote: Toby,
I have sent an email on the topic. Ferron's the Saxophone is My Voice is available at musicmedic.com for about $30 if you want one.
John
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, <kymarto123@...> wrote:
>
> Hi John,
>
> When I said "not really" it was because it sounded to me like you were making some kind of generalized statement about saxes playing only odd harmonics in the higher modes. A cone always plays all harmonics, although the strength of some may vary depending on a lot of factors. The whole "odd
only"
> harmonic thing of cylinders applies to lossless cylinders of infinite length, so you only really get it in clarinets in the lowest notes.
>
> Unfortunately I don't have Ferron, as it is not sold by Amazon, so I can't impress you there ;-)
>
> Toby
>
> John <jtalcott47@...> wrote: Isn't that essentially what I said that you replied "not really" to?
>
> If you really want to impress me, go to p. 104 in Ferron and explain how he comes up with dividing the differences in wavelengths by 3 to find the distance between overtones. I am completely baffled at this one.
>
> John
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, <kymarto123@> wrote:
> >
> > Here is a simple explanation from USNW:
> >
> > In the first register, the first and third harmonics are strong, and the second is weak. This preponderance of odd harmonics gives the clarinet in its low range the characteristic 'hollow' sound. As one ascends in the clarino register and above, however, the even harmonics begin
to
> > lose their systematic weakness. Consequently the sound is brighter, fuller and, unless one is careful, louder. Playing a passage across the break, one tries to hide this difference in timbre and loudness.
> > The spectra of most of the notes in the clarino register have both odd and even harmonics and the associated bright, full tone, rather than just the odd harmonics and 'hollow' sound of the chalumeau register. In the chalumeau register there are impedance peaks near the third,
fifth
> > and seventh harmonics, whereas there are 'valleys' corresponding to the second, fourth and sixth. Beyond that, the peaks are no longer in accurate, harmonic ratios and the effect disappears. For the low notes in the chalumeau register, this high frequency inharmonicity is due to the
> > bell, for higher notes it is due to the effects of open tone holes.
> > In the clarino register, even the third and fifth harmonics of the note played (which would be the ninth and fifteenth harmonics of the corresponding note in the chalumeau register) are up in the frequency ratio where the bore is inharmonic, because of the bell and tone hole
effects.
> >
> > Toby
> >
> > John <jtalcott47@> wrote:
> > Apparently we are both right.
> >
> > Harmonics of D1: D1 D2 A2 D3 F#3 A3 C4 D4 E4 F#5
> > Harmonics of D2: D2 D3 A3 D4 F#5
> >
> > I have never noticed the relationship till now. It is interesting that only the odd numbered harmonics are produced with any strength in the low register of the clarinet, but when played in the upper register there are both even and odd harmonics present. In a way this is the the
converse of
> > the saxophone.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@> wrote:
> > >
> > > John,
> > >
> > > It's not the odd harmonics, it just forms a new regime on the D5 with it's integral relationship resonances, since the D4 is detuned and damped so much, It can not participate. The regime is not super stable, as attempting to over-blow the overtones shifts you back to those of D4 again.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Forwarded Message ----
> > > From: John jtalcott47@
> > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 11:57:20 AM
> > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
> > >
> > >
> > > That's what I thought too. You can check it out at Saxophone acoustics Print the harmonic spectrum for the Tenor sax D4 and D5 and then overlay one over the other. Also do G4 and G5. It is plain to see that the odd numbered harmonics are missing in the series for the higher octave
note.
> > Very interesting . . . .
> > >
> > > The sequence of overtones you listed are still those of the 1st harmonic (fundamental) ---you are just starting on the second one. One might try to produce overtones playing D with the octave key and see what happens.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, MartinMods <lancelotburt@ ...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > John,
> > > >
> > > > The second register is based upon the overtone series of the first octave, since it is merely an overblown low note's 2nd harmonic mode. So, the overtones of D2 are, A2, D3, F#3, A3, C4, etc... You can demonstrate this easily by over-blowing the sequence on your horn.
> > > >
> > > > MM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > > > From: John jtalcott47@ ..
> > > > To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent: Sun, December 27, 2009 5:28:22 PM
> > > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think it would be a great idea to take the New vs Vintage arguments over to Steve's forum. This was a good thread on the basics of acoustics until it got hijacked. To bring it back to the general topic:
> > > >
> > > > I have been studying the saxophone sound spectrum graphs at the UNSW site and have discovered that in the second register it looks as if the notes have only the even numbered overtones. Is this true, and does anyone know the explanation for this.
> > > >
> > > > This one piece of information, if it is true, makes a great deal difference in the location of the nodes of a notes harmonics because only certain whole number multiples of the frequency of the note played are included.
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "STEVE GOODSON" <saxgourmet@ ...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I've overhauled HUNDREDS of vintage horns....even if you can get them to
> > > > > play in tune and respond properly, you've still got an old horn with all its
> > > > > limitations. .this is the main reason I got into the saxophone design
> > > > > business.... people often say "Coltrane and Parker sounded great on an old
> > > > > horn" and it's true that they did. But consider if you will how much better
> > > > > they might have sounded on an instrument that was not so much work to play!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The replication of the "sound" of horns of the past is easy, all it takes is
> > > > > the will to do so. Tastes have changed, and most manufacturers today
> > > > > manufacture horns that are brighter in sound. Trust me, if they were not
> > > > > selling, they would not be doing so! There is no mystery or magic involved.
> > > > > Some manufacturers (including my company and a few others) offer players
> > > > > options which result in a variety of available tones.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I really think this discussion is a little inappropriate for a mouthpiece
> > > > > refacing group, and invite the participants to move it to the saxophone
> > > > > repair group on Yahoo.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
> > > > >
> > > > > STEVE GOODSON
> > > > >
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> > > > > From: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:MouthpieceW ork@ yahoogroups. com]
> > > > > On Behalf Of tenorman1952
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 9:28 AM
> > > > > To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
> > > > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > When a customer brings in an old 6M, Truetone, Balanced Action, or
> > > > > > Martin that they truly love the sound on and ask can you do anything for
> > > > > > this note or set of notes so I don't have to fight the pitch as much, as
> > > > > > a technician I want to learn and develop the skills to be able to help
> > > > > > them.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have spent many, many hours correcting intonation issues on some
> > > > > instruments, and the time spent is very difficult to recover from the
> > > > > customer. Correcting one note will often affect others, or perhaps the
> > > > > entire register. I have even made special mouthpieces for particularly
> > > > > troublesome instruments. The time involved is a killer.
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul C.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
FROM: lancelotburt (MartinMods)
SUBJECT: Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
"And I'll leave with this thought... yes, there is never, ever a node at
the reed/tip of mouthpiece. You can't produce a tone on the guitar by
picking the string where it crosses the nut. "
The guitar's string has fixed nodes at each end and an anti-node (maximum motion) in the middle (first mode) and true, you can not produce a tone by plucking at the point of least excitability.
The saxophone's gaseous air column however, does have a node at the reed/mouthpiece tip - a displacement node (least air motion) - but since, inversely, this is also the compression anti-node (maximum air pressure), pressurizing the gaseous medium here does allow us to produce a sound anyway.
________________________________
From: tenorman1952 <tenorman1952@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, December 30, 2009 1:01:39 PM
Subject: Fw: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Locating Nodes and Antinodes
--- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@ ...> wrote:
>
> I do not take the harmonic series into account other than doing things I believe will help altissimo response.
>
> Â
The harmonic series for the saxophone is both even and odd whole number multiples of the fundamental. The 2nd and 3rd (2x and 3x fundamental freq), for the saxophone, are unusual in that they are always stronger than the fundamental, though we hear the fundamental as the "frequency".
These add together to produce roughly a "sawtooth" wave.
The upper overtones usually taper off as you go higher, though the exact amount depends on the player, mouthpiece, sax, reed, and other factors.
The clarinet has only odd numbered overtones (3x, 5x, 7x, etc), which add together to produce roughly a "square" wave, and that gives the clarinet its characteristic tone.
A saxophone mouthpiece can be faced to result in more of the odd overtones by facing with a very narrow tip opening, a long facing, and a hard reed. This mouthpiece would suddenly open, and suddenly close, without the stiff reed following the waveshape very well. It would have a somewhat "woodier" tone. Examples, Caravan, Rascher, Larry Teal mouthpieces.
As far as shaping the interior of the mouthpiece to try to affect certain overtones, realize that the nodes and antinodes are located in different places for each pitch. There is no "one size fits all" solution.
When refacing a mouthpiece I concern myself with getting a flat table, establishing a smooth radial curve of an appropriate length, good angle for the baffle, good even tip rail, and finally, cosmetic issues.
Altering chamber shape and volume are not part of a regular refacing job. This is getting into more complicated modifications that may be done at the same time. I will say that I have improved as many mouthpiece by filling in the chamber or baffle as I have by removing material.
The important thing is, what are the results desired by the player? And what worked for one customer may not work for another. This goes along with the mistaken idea that if you supply your sax section with identical mouthpieces they will sound the same and blend well. No, not in a million years. I have worked with sax sections that by supplying the players with different, sometimes vastly different mouthpieces, we were able to tone down the bright, edgy players, or put some sparkle in the dull tone of other players, and produce a more uniform section sound.
And I'll leave with this thought... yes, there is never, ever a node at the reed/tip of mouthpiece. You can't produce a tone on the guitar by picking the string where it crosses the nut.
Paul Coats