I find it very hard to re-lay clarinet mouthpieces compared to larger sax sizes.
The measurements are smaller and presumably more critical for the desired result.

I have had general success, but have yet to understand how to build in easy to obtain altissimo.
               Different strength reeds made little difference. 
Post #6636 mentions this, in relation to sax tips but suggests that the opposite to a flip tip might be beneficial on clarinet, without saying why.
    I have used various tip openings and lay measurements from the data section.
Before I ruin another MPC, can someone please tell me what needs to be done, to enhance the altissimo, with a response like Allan Vache gets on his crystal MPC, for example.
Thanks,  Eddie.

Hi Eddie:
Sorry my poor English language, i am Argentine and speak only Spanish.

My experience with clarinet mouthpiece not is old; but are substancial. I be analyzed difference mouthpiece and trade marks.

One that i think can be accept how "norm" is Vandoren B40 Lyre, Profile88, serie 13. In relation of this mouthpiece i reformed all my others clarinet mouthpieces: 1) Pomarico of crystal nº 1, i reformed to nº 2½, --  2) Leo Bundy, equal. --  3) Saluzzi (Argentine) are nearly equal to the B40 --  4) One made in China with the better hard rubber that was "untouchable" by the horrifying facing of factory, i arrange and facing work just as it is the Vandoren.

To all this reformed mouthpiece i must be remove and aggregate material some with epoxi and others with cianoacrilate. I had lengthen the same for behin bore. All mouthpiece sound good and the altissimo sound more than well.

Data aprox.:

- Tip aperture in mms:  from 1,18  to  1,4

- Tip rail= 0,6 mm. (well glossy)

- Length of curvature en mms: from  20 to 22

- Lateral Rails= 1 mm. (curvature sector) remainder a little more width.

- Walls: Straights. Maxime aperture between wall at the back of= 10 mms

- Baffle: Straight from tip until windows end.

- Maxime space from the table to the side high of the chamber= 15 mms.

- Bore or the final internal diameter (to barrel)= 15,35 mms (this 

measure is relative to each brand of mouthpiece or characteristics.

- Side Internal of Window end = Minimum 1 mm. with cross-section bevel backward.

- Format of Side backward of the window = Rounded

More? impossible my friend.  Good Luck with yours altissimi notes
and supplicate to the altissimo for play its good! :)

Fraternally your

Silverio
Argentine Patagonian. 


--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Eddie" <ed@...> wrote:
>
> I find it very hard to re-lay clarinet mouthpieces compared to larger sax sizes.
> The measurements are smaller and presumably more critical for the desired result.
> 
> I have had general success, but have yet to understand how to build in easy to obtain altissimo.
>                Different strength reeds made little difference. 
> Post #6636 mentions this, in relation to sax tips but suggests that the opposite to a flip tip might be beneficial on clarinet, without saying why.
>     I have used various tip openings and lay measurements from the data section.
> Before I ruin another MPC, can someone please tell me what needs to be done, to enhance the altissimo, with a response like Allan Vache gets on his crystal MPC, for example.
> Thanks,  Eddie.
>

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "silpopaar" <silpopaar@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Eddie:
> Sorry my poor English language, i am Argentine and speak only Spanish.
> 

Silverio, do not apologize for your English... that is a very precise description, very well done, my friend!

Paul

I have found that if you put a little material right behind the baffle going into the bore that it is very easy to go up to double C without giving up the general tone (of course unless you put to much material in). The other option of course is to have a closed, long faced mouthpiece with a really hard reed which to me is not that much fun to play.

Mike Vaccaro



This e-mail may contain information that is privileged or confidential.
If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the e-mail and any attachments and notify us immediately.

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Eddie" <ed@...> wrote:
>
> I find it very hard to re-lay clarinet mouthpieces compared to larger sax sizes.
> The measurements are smaller and presumably more critical for the desired result.
> 
> I have had general success, but have yet to understand how to build in easy to obtain altissimo.
>                Different strength reeds made little difference. 
> Post #6636 mentions this, in relation to sax tips but suggests that the opposite to a flip tip might be beneficial on clarinet, without saying why.
>     I have used various tip openings and lay measurements from the data section.
> Before I ruin another MPC, can someone please tell me what needs to be done, to enhance the altissimo, with a response like Allan Vache gets on his crystal MPC, for example.
> Thanks,  Eddie.
>
Hello Silverio,
               Your English is good enough to understand and I have 'well glossy' (polished) my tip also drawing back the reed a little to give .6mm tip rail. This did help slightly.
Can you tell me what effect the 1mm edge to the back of the window will have, as my lowering of the table has left a sharp edge ?
Thank you,  Eddie.

Hello Mike,
           I had never thought of adding a slight baffle behind the tip, though have put acrylic inserts further back into the MPC. This of course alters the overall tone. I agree that using a long close lay and a hard reed achieves the desired result, but is very restrictive and as you say, not much fun to play. I found this to be the case on a 5RV .  Thanks for the reply.  Eddie                               

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Eddie" <ed@...> wrote:
>
> Post #6636 mentions this, in relation to sax tips but suggests that the opposite to a flip tip might be beneficial on clarinet, without saying why.

#6636 was my post so I just re-read it.  I meant that an ellipse that is more curved at the "break" near the table and less curved at the tip might be good for clarinet mouthpieces in general.  I do not think they will be better for altissimo and I did not say that.  As for "why" it is just an observation of what types of facing curves are in use on clarinet.  Many have this feature.  But they can still flip near the tip.  

In the Files section, I posted 4 clarinet facings from my personal players over the years, among a few others.  These are the Selmer C85 120, the Vandoren B46, the Vandoren 5JB and the Metalite M9.  I use the Selmer and Metalite now but could easily go back to using the Vandorens.  In each pair, one is more legit (Selmer, B46) and the other is more for Jazz/Klezmer. 

I'm just a doubler, but I can hit double high Cs on all of them.  I use Legere reeds from 2.5-3.5 strengths.  I have resisted refacing any of these clarinet mouthpieces. The flat sections and bumps in the facing would really bug me on sax.  Yet I think they are key to what makes these good clarinet mouthpieces for me.  But I do not understand why this is so.

>     I have used various tip openings and lay measurements from the data section.
> Before I ruin another MPC, can someone please tell me what needs to be done, to enhance the altissimo, with a response like Allan Vache gets on his crystal MPC, for example.
> Thanks,  Eddie.
>

I would say find a stock clarinet mouthpiece and reed combination that has good altissimo for you and try to copy it.  If you have never found one, maybe the mouthpiece is not the problem.  

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "kwbradbury" <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
>
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Eddie" <ed@> wrote:
> >
> > Post #6636 mentions this, in relation to sax tips but suggests that the opposite to a flip tip might be beneficial on clarinet, without saying why.
> 
> #6636 was my post so I just re-read it.  I meant that an ellipse that is more curved at the "break" near the table and less curved at the tip might be good for clarinet mouthpieces in general.  I do not think they will be better for altissimo and I did not say that.  As for "why" it is just an observation of what types of facing curves are in use on clarinet.  Many have this feature.  But they can still flip near the tip.  
> 
> In the Files section, I posted 4 clarinet facings from my personal players over the years, among a few others.  These are the Selmer C85 120, the Vandoren B46, the Vandoren 5JB and the Metalite M9.  I use the Selmer and Metalite now but could easily go back to using the Vandorens.  In each pair, one is more legit (Selmer, B46) and the other is more for Jazz/Klezmer. 
> 
> I'm just a doubler, but I can hit double high Cs on all of them.  I use Legere reeds from 2.5-3.5 strengths.  I have resisted refacing any of these clarinet mouthpieces. The flat sections and bumps in the facing would really bug me on sax.  Yet I think they are key to what makes these good clarinet mouthpieces for me.  But I do not understand why this is so.
> 
> >     I have used various tip openings and lay measurements from the data section.
> > Before I ruin another MPC, can someone please tell me what needs to be done, to enhance the altissimo, with a response like Allan Vache gets on his crystal MPC, for example.
> > Thanks,  Eddie.
> >
> 
> I would say find a stock clarinet mouthpiece and reed combination that has good altissimo for you and try to copy it.  If you have never found one, maybe the mouthpiece is not the problem.
>
Hi Keith,
         Thanks for clarifying post 6636 for me. I normally do not have a problem with altissimo but have been opening up an old rubber Noblet and have never considered flip tips on clarinet before.
Eddie

There was a study by Joe Wolfe's group at UNSW that showed that for altissimos (in sax at least) it is critical for the player to shape the mouth and throat a certain way to reinforce the high harmonic to be sounded to get the altissimo. So it is at least partly a question of the player finding
 the "sweet spot" in a way that involves both the embouchure and the oral cavity working together.

My guess is that the embouchure of each player responds a bit differently to the machinations needed to get the oral cavity right to sound the note, and so different players prefer different mpc/reed setups for altissimo. But it is never solely a question of the mpc/reed combination: none is
 sufficient in and of itself to sound the altissimos without a lot of help from the oral cavity.

Toby

kwbradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:                                    
 --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Eddie" <ed@...> wrote:
 >
 > Post #6636 mentions this, in relation to sax tips but suggests that the opposite to a flip tip might be beneficial on clarinet, without saying why.
 
 #6636 was my post so I just re-read it.  I meant that an ellipse that is more curved at the "break" near the table and less curved at the tip might be good for clarinet mouthpieces in general.  I do not think they will be better for altissimo and I did not say that.  As for "why" it is just an
 observation of what types of facing curves are in use on clarinet.  Many have this feature.  But they can still flip near the tip.  
 
 In the Files section, I posted 4 clarinet facings from my personal players over the years, among a few others.  These are the Selmer C85 120, the Vandoren B46, the Vandoren 5JB and the Metalite M9.  I use the Selmer and Metalite now but could easily go back to using the Vandorens.  In each pair,
 one is more legit (Selmer, B46) and the other is more for Jazz/Klezmer. 
 
 I'm just a doubler, but I can hit double high Cs on all of them.  I use Legere reeds from 2.5-3.5 strengths.  I have resisted refacing any of these clarinet mouthpieces. The flat sections and bumps in the facing would really bug me on sax.  Yet I think they are key to what makes these good
 clarinet mouthpieces for me.  But I do not understand why this is so.
 
 >     I have used various tip openings and lay measurements from the data section.
 > Before I ruin another MPC, can someone please tell me what needs to be done, to enhance the altissimo, with a response like Allan Vache gets on his crystal MPC, for example.
 > Thanks,  Eddie.
 >
 
 I would say find a stock clarinet mouthpiece and reed combination that has good altissimo for you and try to copy it.  If you have never found one, maybe the mouthpiece is not the problem.  
 
 
        
             
                          
 

 I find that on saxophone, the synthetic reeds (Fibracell, Legere, etc) have
better altissimo response.

> There was a study by Joe Wolfe's group at UNSW that showed that for altissimos
> (in sax at least) it is critical for the player to shape the mouth and throat
> a certain way to reinforce the high harmonic to be sounded to get the
> altissimo. So it is at least partly a question of the player finding
> the "sweet spot" in a way that involves both the embouchure and the oral
> cavity working together.
> 
> My guess is that the embouchure of each player responds a bit differently to
> the machinations needed to get the oral cavity right to sound the note, and so
> different players prefer different mpc/reed setups for altissimo. But it is
> never solely a question of the mpc/reed combination: none is
> sufficient in and of itself to sound the altissimos without a lot of help from
> the oral cavity.
> 
> Toby
> 
> kwbradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Eddie" <ed@...> wrote:
>> 
>> Post #6636 mentions this, in relation to sax tips but suggests that the
>> opposite to a flip tip might be beneficial on clarinet, without saying why.
> 
> #6636 was my post so I just re-read it.  I meant that an ellipse that is more
> curved at the "break" near the table and less curved at the tip might be good
> for clarinet mouthpieces in general.  I do not think they will be better for
> altissimo and I did not say that.  As for "why" it is just an
> observation of what types of facing curves are in use on clarinet.  Many have
> this feature.  But they can still flip near the tip.
> 
> In the Files section, I posted 4 clarinet facings from my personal players
> over the years, among a few others.  These are the Selmer C85 120, the
> Vandoren B46, the Vandoren 5JB and the Metalite M9.  I use the Selmer and
> Metalite now but could easily go back to using the Vandorens.  In each pair,
> one is more legit (Selmer, B46) and the other is more for Jazz/Klezmer.
> 
> I'm just a doubler, but I can hit double high Cs on all of them.  I use Legere
> reeds from 2.5-3.5 strengths.  I have resisted refacing any of these clarinet
> mouthpieces. The flat sections and bumps in the facing would really bug me on
> sax.  Yet I think they are key to what makes these good
> clarinet mouthpieces for me.  But I do not understand why this is so.
> 
>> I have used various tip openings and lay measurements from the data section.
>> Before I ruin another MPC, can someone please tell me what needs to be done,
>> to enhance the altissimo, with a response like Allan Vache gets on his
>> crystal MPC, for example.
>> Thanks,  Eddie.
>> 
> 
> I would say find a stock clarinet mouthpiece and reed combination that has
> good altissimo for you and try to copy it.  If you have never found one, maybe
> the mouthpiece is not the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

I think the material does not go past the tip in the baffle. I think the contour goes in the chamber behind the baffle. I prefer to call it contour material and not a wedge by the way. The baffle would work but it changes the tone to much and effects intonation to much. Again, this is just my experience (recent) since got a batch of mouthpiece shells a couple of months ago that had a trough (gouge) down the chamber and in filling it in a little to much came out with a nice playing mouthpiece that played the altissimo easier than any mouthpiece I have ever made.


Mike Vaccaro



 

Hi, me congratulate for my fantastic dictionary jahhh

Please Eddie no touch your mouthpiece of trade mark first line, if not understood my recommendations, then there isn´t serious of my part neither of yours.

Such 1 mm edge,(or ramp) look to front with the table up, is horizontally straight, whose section cross diagonally, from 0 to 1 mm.
This section can have until 8 to 10 mms. That function for me; but for increase the resistance on the altissimo range, you can shorten this section, doing that such diagonal more short and with more resistance to flow ondulatory of wave sound. The wave to the encounter such resistance itself be shorten, is accelerated and can generate more quickly the response that you need with less effort.

For altissimo you need resistance, without resistance will not there are generally good sound on top and such resistance is appropiate when so much 1) the front of the tip, 2) how baffle (high or down, straight or rounded) and  3) edge to the back of the window are in relation. 

Later logically, are the characteristics of the rails, walls (straight or rounded), chamber, throat (short or length) and inclinaned of ramp, final bore in relation of barrel, designs of barrel, clarinet corps and bell. Ahhh fundamentally the reeds ;))) jeh!

How i made my proper reeds, few can tell you to respect of hardness to use; but can calculate aproximatelly between 2½ to 3 more or less.
I use my propers and how "standard patron" only Vandoren Rue Lepic 56 not others; sometimes i use Gonzalez, Zonda but really can recommend the 56 for your dimensional stability. Now, how all player know, the reeds be alive and rise continouslly, generally when be badly cured your tendency to go astray or slew is fatal to play altissimo.

For me, than i am a pragmatic person :))) the better system for all this questions is first rationalize all the possible and prove, prove and prove; but with mouthpiece crash or in desuse, never with one new and less one of trade mark first line. Some retouch on the reed can help you much more than any other thing.

I not retouch the tip of the reed, never; because this area is the more difficult of regulate to hand. But yes i retouch the lateral to 3 mm backwards, such to do 

Fraternally yours

Silverio> Hello Silverio,
>                Your English is good enough to understand and I have 'well glossy' (polished) my tip also drawing back the reed a little to give .6mm tip rail. This did help slightly.
> Can you tell me what effect the 1mm edge to the back of the window will have, as my lowering of the table has left a sharp edge ?
> Thank you,  Eddie.
> 

I thought I would share with everyone because a lot of people have been
sharing with me when I joined.  I'm a clarinetist and I would like to
know if you all are talking about double high C or super C on the Bb
Clarinet?

There are different kinds and types of clarinets and so the differences
are going to present different challenges.

Who is needing to play which high C and for how long?

The reason I'm asking is because to play the super A above the super C
(highest note on the violin), then this is just and "overblown" E on the
clarinet.  Altissimo notes on the Bb Clarinet many times are just a
perfected squeak or are formed by changing the shape of the inside of
your mouth.

I hope this helps.

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "silpopaar" <silpopaar@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi, me congratulate for my fantastic dictionary jahhh
>
> Please Eddie no touch your mouthpiece of trade mark first line, if not
understood my recommendations, then there isn´t serious of my part
neither of yours.
>
> Such 1 mm edge,(or ramp) look to front with the table up, is
horizontally straight, whose section cross diagonally, from 0 to 1 mm.
> This section can have until 8 to 10 mms. That function for me; but for
increase the resistance on the altissimo range, you can shorten this
section, doing that such diagonal more short and with more resistance to
flow ondulatory of wave sound. The wave to the encounter such resistance
itself be shorten, is accelerated and can generate more quickly the
response that you need with less effort.
>
> For altissimo you need resistance, without resistance will not there
are generally good sound on top and such resistance is appropiate when
so much 1) the front of the tip, 2) how baffle (high or down, straight
or rounded) and  3) edge to the back of the window are in relation.
>
> Later logically, are the characteristics of the rails, walls (straight
or rounded), chamber, throat (short or length) and inclinaned of ramp,
final bore in relation of barrel, designs of barrel, clarinet corps and
bell. Ahhh fundamentally the reeds ;))) jeh!
>
> How i made my proper reeds, few can tell you to respect of hardness to
use; but can calculate aproximatelly between 2½ to 3 more or less.
> I use my propers and how "standard patron" only Vandoren Rue Lepic 56
not others; sometimes i use Gonzalez, Zonda but really can recommend the
56 for your dimensional stability. Now, how all player know, the reeds
be alive and rise continouslly, generally when be badly cured your
tendency to go astray or slew is fatal to play altissimo.
>
> For me, than i am a pragmatic person :))) the better system for all
this questions is first rationalize all the possible and prove, prove
and prove; but with mouthpiece crash or in desuse, never with one new
and less one of trade mark first line. Some retouch on the reed can help
you much more than any other thing.
>
> I not retouch the tip of the reed, never; because this area is the
more difficult of regulate to hand. But yes i retouch the lateral to 3
mm backwards, such to do
>
> Fraternally yours
>
> Silverio> Hello Silverio,
> >                Your English is good enough to understand and I have
'well glossy' (polished) my tip also drawing back the reed a little to
give .6mm tip rail. This did help slightly.
> > Can you tell me what effect the 1mm edge to the back of the window
will have, as my lowering of the table has left a sharp edge ?
> > Thank you,  Eddie.
> >
>

All of the fingering charts for the altissimo register of the clarinet show the left hand index finger lifted.  Players pick that finger high off the tone hole.

That tone hole is really, in the altissimo register, another register vent.  But look at the size!  There is no need for the hole to be that large, and is in fact detrimental to the clarity and production of the altissimo notes of the Clarinet.

This was shown to me by a good symphony clarinetist long ago.

For those notes above high C do not lift the left hand index finger all the way off the tone hole.  ROLL the finger down to expose a very small crack at the upper edge of the tone hole.

Instantly those notes have a more full, clear tone, are more stable, and match the tone of the upper register.

And this works even for duffers like me.

Paul Coats

How well partially uncovering 1st tonehole works depends very much on the individual clarinet and set-up.
On most clarinets I have played (many) it works fine for high Eb and E but has serious intonation effects on C# and D.  To start these latter notes pp you can partially uncover briefly to start the note then roll fully off to maintain pitch.
You really have to experiment with your own instrument and set-up to determine how well it works on individual notes.

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "tenorman1952" <tenorman1952@...> wrote:
>
> 
> All of the fingering charts for the altissimo register of the clarinet show the left hand index finger lifted.  Players pick that finger high off the tone hole.
> 
> That tone hole is really, in the altissimo register, another register vent.  But look at the size!  There is no need for the hole to be that large, and is in fact detrimental to the clarity and production of the altissimo notes of the Clarinet.
> 
> This was shown to me by a good symphony clarinetist long ago.
> 
> For those notes above high C do not lift the left hand index finger all the way off the tone hole.  ROLL the finger down to expose a very small crack at the upper edge of the tone hole.
> 
> Instantly those notes have a more full, clear tone, are more stable, and match the tone of the upper register.
> 
> And this works even for duffers like me.
> 
> Paul Coats
>

Playing technique, instrument, reed all seeming to contribute something to the production of easy Altissimo.
 
As this is primarily a mouthpiece site, I was looking at it from that angle and with Silverio & Mike's observations pointing to tip, area behind tip (contour) and end of window requiring particular attention.

Thank you for all the helpful replies.

Eddie

Yes all of these things go into clarinet playing.  Also remember that
there are large clarinets from BBb all the way to the tiny Ab clarinet. 
Each clarinet has it's own playing tendencies.  Sometimes altissimo
notes on the "standard" clarinets are nothing more than a "controlled
squeak" on pitch.

For instance, some composers use the Eb Clarinet to play in the
altissimo register, extending the range of the 1st Bb Clarinets without
having them to over work themselves.  So be aware of these techniques


--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Edward McLean" <ed@...> wrote:
>
> Playing technique, instrument, reed all seeming to contribute
something to the production of easy Altissimo.
>
> As this is primarily a mouthpiece site, I was looking at it from that
angle and with Silverio & Mike's observations pointing to tip, area
behind tip (contour) and end of window requiring particular attention.
>
> Thank you for all the helpful replies.
>
> Eddie
>