Well i narrowed the side rails and this has helped a bit.  Regarding the tip rail has anyone experimented with different dimensions from side to side?   It tends to get wider in the middle for me as I open mouthpieces.  Is this a bad thing?  

First put your favorite reed on the mouthpiece and file the outside of the tip to match the reed tip shape.  You then have the option of filing more off the tip to thin the tip rail or you can file from the inside to thin the tip rail.  There are times when you want to do either or a combination of both.  I would target for a uniform tip rail thickness of about 1/32".  
 
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
2925 Crane St., Vineland, NJ 08361 
Paypal to sabradbury79@... 
Check out: http://www.MojoMouthpieceWork.com




________________________________
From: arnoldstang3 <john_w_price33@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 10:49:44 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] tip rail again

  
Well i narrowed the side rails and this has helped a bit. Regarding the tip rail has anyone experimented with different dimensions from side to side? It tends to get wider in the middle for me as I open mouthpieces. Is this a bad thing? 





      

-Does anyone in the group use a thinner or thicker tip rail than 1/32"?   -- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
>
> First put your favorite reed on the mouthpiece and file the outside of the tip to match the reed tip shape.  You then have the option of filing more off the tip to thin the tip rail or you can file from the inside to thin the tip rail.  There are times when you want to do either or a combination of both.  I would target for a uniform tip rail thickness of about 1/32".  
>  
> Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
> 2925 Crane St., Vineland, NJ 08361 
> Paypal to sabradbury79@... 
> Check out: http://www.MojoMouthpieceWork.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: arnoldstang3 <john_w_price33@...>
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 10:49:44 PM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] tip rail again
> 
>   
> Well i narrowed the side rails and this has helped a bit. Regarding the tip rail has anyone experimented with different dimensions from side to side? It tends to get wider in the middle for me as I open mouthpieces. Is this a bad thing?
>

Helped what particular quality?

I'm wondering if you're looking to the tip rail as a solution to a different
problem actually - which is the profile of the baffle in the zone of about
1/4" behind the tip rail.

Refacing alters this profile. And this can have a profound influence on how
the mouthpiece plays.

Moreover, it's a dicey bit of adjustment in my (albeit limited) experience.
It seems very sensitive to small changes.  And I find it difficult to
actually measure the shape of the baffle in this area (if there is a good
way to do this, I'd like to know it.) One needs some combination of a depth
gauge plus a way of setting the distance from the mouthpiece tip when
measuring.

I've used a profile gauge as a way of comparing this baffle profile in one
mouthpiece that played well to another that didn't. Crude, but gets one into
the ballpark.

Barry

>> From: arnoldstang3 <john_w_price33@...>
>> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 10:49:44 PM
>> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] tip rail again
>> 
>>   
>> Well i narrowed the side rails and this has helped a bit. ...

Yes, that is what I would aim for, 0.7mm to 0.8mm width.

I would classify wider than 0.8mm as a wide rail and less than 0.7mm as a thin rail.

However, tip rail widths up to 1mm are not uncommon.  Thin tip rails can give an easier response but do mean you have to have a reed shape with a close fit in order to get a good seal.

To ascertain the baffle shape right behind the tip rail, I simply sight a small stainless steel ruler on edge against the baffle.  This will give an idea of how much curvature there is there.  If the baffle is too high it will choke off the sound or even touch the reed prior to the rail, resulting in a tendency to squeal or chirp.

Regards,
Andrew


--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "arnoldstang3" <john_w_price33@...> wrote:
>
> -Does anyone in the group use a thinner or thicker tip rail than 1/32"?   -- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@> wrote:
> >
> > First put your favorite reed on the mouthpiece and file the outside of the tip to match the reed tip shape.  You then have the option of filing more off the tip to thin the tip rail or you can file from the inside to thin the tip rail.  There are times when you want to do either or a combination of both.  I would target for a uniform tip rail thickness of about 1/32".  
> >  
> > Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
> > 2925 Crane St., Vineland, NJ 08361 
> > Paypal to sabradbury79@ 
> > Check out: http://www.MojoMouthpieceWork.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > From: arnoldstang3 <john_w_price33@>
> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 10:49:44 PM
> > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] tip rail again
> > 
> >   
> > Well i narrowed the side rails and this has helped a bit. Regarding the tip rail has anyone experimented with different dimensions from side to side? It tends to get wider in the middle for me as I open mouthpieces. Is this a bad thing?
> >
>

Yes, I use all kinds of thicknesses.  Thinner ones (like .018" thick) articulate well but can be prone to squeaking depending on the players embouchure.  Thin can sound rich in overtones and/or edgy.  Thin also requires a good fit to the shape of the reed tip.  So I prefer not to go below .024" or so.




________________________________
From: arnoldstang3 <john_w_price33@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2009 2:54:13 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: tip rail again

  
-Does anyone in the group use a thinner or thicker tip rail than 1/32"? -- 
Recent Activity
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. 




      

I ran across an interesting bit of Benade, IIRC, in which
he strongly recommends a cutting a groove in the baffle
just behind the tip rail to optimize the response of the
reed aeroacoustically. I personally have always found that
taking some material off just behind the tip rail helps to
keep the reed from chirping, although I have never gone so
far as to actually cut a step behind the tip rail. However
it is certainly true that refacing can effectively raise
the height of the baffle just behind the tip rail, and you
might have to cut that back down after finishing the
reface in order to get response similar to what you had
originally.



--- Barry Levine <barrylevine@...> wrote:

> Helped what particular quality?
> 
> I'm wondering if you're looking to the tip rail as a
> solution to a different
> problem actually - which is the profile of the
> baffle in the zone of about
> 1/4" behind the tip rail.
> 
> Refacing alters this profile. And this can have a
> profound influence on how
> the mouthpiece plays.
> 
> Moreover, it's a dicey bit of adjustment in my
> (albeit limited) experience.
> It seems very sensitive to small changes.  And I
> find it difficult to
> actually measure the shape of the baffle in this
> area (if there is a good
> way to do this, I'd like to know it.) One needs some
> combination of a depth
> gauge plus a way of setting the distance from the
> mouthpiece tip when
> measuring.
> 
> I've used a profile gauge as a way of comparing this
> baffle profile in one
> mouthpiece that played well to another that didn't.
> Crude, but gets one into
> the ballpark.
> 
> Barry
> 
> >> From: arnoldstang3 <john_w_price33@...>
> >> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 10:49:44 PM
> >> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] tip rail again
> >> 
> >>   
> >> Well i narrowed the side rails and this has
> helped a bit. ...
> 
> 

I'm not sure we can blame chirping on thin tip rails.  I had the pleasure of trying several Meyer Brothers pieces a few weeks ago -- altos and baris.  They all had hairline tip rails -- not just thin, but all but non-existent.  Every one of them articulated very very well, even on reeds that don't line up perfectly.  At best I think maybe a wider tip rail tends to dampen all vibration of the reed, incuding the tendency to vibrate at its on frequency (chirping), as wider side rails do.  This can inhibit a tendency to chirp that has another cause (asymmetry, too-high baffle, etc.).

FWIW, I routinely use pretty thin tip rails, almost always <.5mm, unless I'm trying to darken/deaden the sound of a piece.     


--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, I use all kinds of thicknesses.  Thinner ones (like .018" thick) articulate well but can be prone to squeaking depending on the players embouchure.  Thin can sound rich in overtones and/or edgy.  Thin also requires a good fit to the shape of the reed tip.  So I prefer not to go below .024" or so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: arnoldstang3 <john_w_price33@...>
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 9, 2009 2:54:13 PM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: tip rail again
> 
>   
> -Does anyone in the group use a thinner or thicker tip rail than 1/32"? -- 
> Recent Activity
> 	*  10
> New MembersVisit Your Group 
> Give Back
> Yahoo! for Good
> Get inspired
> by a good cause.
> Y! Toolbar
> Get it Free!
> easy 1-click access
> to your groups.
> Yahoo! Groups
> Start a group
> in 3 easy steps.
> Connect with others.
> .
>

Squeaking on thin tip rails is more of a beginner's problem.  We are probably not doing much refacing work for beginners.  But if you do, I would recommend a thick tip rail.


      

What does a "beginner" do wrong to cause squeaking?

Tom De Winter

-------------- Original message from Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>: -------------- 

  Squeaking on thin tip rails is more of a beginner's problem.  We are probably not doing much refacing work for beginners.  But if you do, I would recommend a thick tip rail.

Now you are making me think about it...

One part is that they do not always line up the reed well and/or they use a reed that may be a little damaged.  Other parts are a tight embouchure with very little mouthpiece taken in and the pressence high blowing pressure in an effert to get the set-up to speak or to play louder.  A thick tip rail can not fix all of these issues but it can make it easier to get the reed to seal at the tip.  It also removes the "highs" from sound spectrum which I think come from the very tip of the reed vibrating.  A squeak is high partial running amuck.




________________________________
From: "tdewinter@..." <tdewinter@mchsi.com>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 10:44:31 AM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: tip rail again


What does a "beginner" do wrong to cause squeaking?

Tom De Winter

-------------- Original message from Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>: -------------- 
>
>  
>Squeaking on thin tip rails is more of a beginner's problem.  We are probably not doing much refacing work for beginners.  But if you do, I would recommend a thick tip rail.
>


      

  In response to Barry Levine...tip rail again topic is "again"...my initial post was a baffle that is deep with a wide tip rail....goal was to free up the mouthpiece as it was slightly stuffy.  Thanks for all this info.  Of course isolating factors like tip rail is a prickly subject and there are many ideas here.  I'm going to do some experimenting with  variable tip rails...wide on one side and narrow on the other, narrow in the middle and wide on the sides.  I'm sure it will amount to nothing but I'll counterbalance this with doing some conventional refacing on other mouthpieces.  Too many variables, too much time.    
   --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
>
> Now you are making me think about it...
> 
> One part is that they do not always line up the reed well and/or they use a reed that may be a little damaged.  Other parts are a tight embouchure with very little mouthpiece taken in and the pressence high blowing pressure in an effert to get the set-up to speak or to play louder.  A thick tip rail can not fix all of these issues but it can make it easier to get the reed to seal at the tip.  It also removes the "highs" from sound spectrum which I think come from the very tip of the reed vibrating.  A squeak is high partial running amuck.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: "tdewinter@..." <tdewinter@...>
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 10:44:31 AM
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: tip rail again
> 
> 
> What does a "beginner" do wrong to cause squeaking?
> 
> Tom De Winter
> 
> -------------- Original message from Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>: -------------- 
> >
> >  
> >Squeaking on thin tip rails is more of a beginner's problem.  We are probably not doing much refacing work for beginners.  But if you do, I would recommend a thick tip rail.
> >
>

Squeaking could be a sign of an unbalanced reed, or perhaps of a crooked
facing

> Squeaking on thin tip rails is more of a beginner's problem.� We are
> probably not doing much refacing work for beginners.� But if you do, I
> would recommend a thick tip rail.
>
>
>

I'd say that the sound of unexpected and unwanted reed resonance had less to do with the actual width of the tip rail and more to do with uneven tip rail width, or the uneven slope of the baffle immediately after the tip rail..  

--- On Thu, 9/10/09, Barry Levine <barrylevine@...> wrote:

From: Barry Levine <barrylevine@...>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: tip rail again
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, September 10, 2009, 5:09 PM






 




    
                  Squeaking could be a sign of an unbalanced reed, or perhaps of a crooked

facing



> Squeaking on thin tip rails is more of a beginner's problem.  We are

> probably not doing much refacing work for beginners.  But if you do, I

> would recommend a thick tip rail.

>

>

>




 

      

    
    
	
	 
	
	








	


	
	


      

Squeaking is caused AFAIK by a lateral rocking motion of
the reed around the longitudinal axis--the reed twists
from side to side, touching first one side of the tip rail
and then the other. Because this doesn't allow a standing
wave to develop in the bore, the reed is free to vibrate
at one of its natural resonance frequencies.

Obviously uneven rails will cause a reed to twist
somewhat, making the development of a squeak more likely,
but apparently a high baffle just behind the tip rail
changes the way the reed responds due to the Bernoulli
effect. I wish I had the quote at hand, but IIRC the point
is that to effectively get the reed to oscillate you need
a bit of space just behind the tip rail. If I can locate
it I will post it.

I suspect that a thin tip rail, if it is even, creates no
problem, but any unevenness will tend to be magnified if
it is very thin. The point of the game is to get the reed
to open and close as a unit without twisting on its
midline.

Toby

--- Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:

> Now you are making me think about it...
> 
> One part is that they do not always line up the reed
> well and/or they use a reed that may be a little
> damaged.  Other parts are a tight embouchure with
> very little mouthpiece taken in and the pressence
> high blowing pressure in an effert to get the set-up
> to speak or to play louder.  A thick tip rail can
> not fix all of these issues but it can make it
> easier to get the reed to seal at the tip.  It also
> removes the "highs" from sound spectrum which I
> think come from the very tip of the reed
vibrating. 
> A squeak is high partial running amuck.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: "tdewinter@..." <tdewinter@...>
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 10:44:31 AM
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: tip rail again
> 
> 
> What does a "beginner" do wrong to cause squeaking?
> 
> Tom De Winter
> 
> -------------- Original message from Keith Bradbury
> <kwbradbury@...>: -------------- 
> >
> >  
> >Squeaking on thin tip rails is more of a beginner's
> problem.  We are probably not doing much refacing
> work for beginners.  But if you do, I would
> recommend a thick tip rail.
> >
> 
> 
>       

I play a tenor Ponzol HR Vintage in 0.105" opening. Blowing the MP alone I find many reeds almost impossible to not squeek. Many of these play fine with MP on the horn.

I'm hoping this discussion will give me some insight into causes and cures.

Tom

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: kymarto123@... 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 1:59 AM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: tip rail again


    Squeaking is caused AFAIK by a lateral rocking motion of
  the reed around the longitudinal axis--the reed twists
  from side to side, touching first one side of the tip rail
  and then the other. Because this doesn't allow a standing
  wave to develop in the bore, the reed is free to vibrate
  at one of its natural resonance frequencies.

  Obviously uneven rails will cause a reed to twist
  somewhat, making the development of a squeak more likely,
  but apparently a high baffle just behind the tip rail
  changes the way the reed responds due to the Bernoulli
  effect. I wish I had the quote at hand, but IIRC the point
  is that to effectively get the reed to oscillate you need
  a bit of space just behind the tip rail. If I can locate
  it I will post it.

  I suspect that a thin tip rail, if it is even, creates no
  problem, but any unevenness will tend to be magnified if
  it is very thin. The point of the game is to get the reed
  to open and close as a unit without twisting on its
  midline.

  Toby

  --- Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:

  > Now you are making me think about it...
  > 
  > One part is that they do not always line up the reed
  > well and/or they use a reed that may be a little
  > damaged.  Other parts are a tight embouchure with
  > very little mouthpiece taken in and the pressence
  > high blowing pressure in an effert to get the set-up
  > to speak or to play louder.  A thick tip rail can
  > not fix all of these issues but it can make it
  > easier to get the reed to seal at the tip.  It also
  > removes the "highs" from sound spectrum which I
  > think come from the very tip of the reed
  vibrating. 
  > A squeak is high partial running amuck.
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > ________________________________
  > From: "tdewinter@..." <tdewinter@...>
  > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
  > Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 10:44:31 AM
  > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: tip rail again
  > 
  > 
  > What does a "beginner" do wrong to cause squeaking?
  > 
  > Tom De Winter
  > 
  > -------------- Original message from Keith Bradbury
  > <kwbradbury@...>: -------------- 
  > >
  > >  
  > >Squeaking on thin tip rails is more of a beginner's
  > problem.  We are probably not doing much refacing
  > work for beginners.  But if you do, I would
  > recommend a thick tip rail.
  > >
  > 
  > 
  > 



  

Sounds like the mouthpiece is only slightly uneven somewhere.

Without the neck/body, the mouthhpiece is a very short cylindrical
tube, without a constriction.  The resonances of the short air column
normally do have enough energy to overpower the reed's vibrations,
unless the mouthpiece is inhibiting the formation of stable harmonic
regimes by being improperly designed or slightly uneven somewhere. 

Adding the mouthpiece to the conical tube couples the two air columns. The new air column resonances
generate enough energy to overpower the reed and force it to vibrate at
the air column's frequency, despite the minor problems with the
mouthpiece.

--- On Fri, 9/11/09, Tom De Winter <tdewinter@...> wrote:

From: Tom De Winter <tdewinter@...>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: tip rail again
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, September 11, 2009, 12:26 PM






 




    
                  


I play a tenor Ponzol HR Vintage in 0.105" opening. 
Blowing the MP alone I find many reeds almost impossible to not squeek. Many of 
these play fine with MP on the horn.
 
I'm hoping this discussion will give me some 
insight into causes and cures.
 
Tom
 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: 
  kymarto123@ybb. ne.jp 
  To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com 
  
  Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 1:59 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: tip 
  rail again
  
  
  
  Squeaking is caused AFAIK by a lateral rocking motion of
the reed around 
  the longitudinal axis--the reed twists
from side to side, touching first 
  one side of the tip rail
and then the other. Because this doesn't allow a 
  standing
wave to develop in the bore, the reed is free to vibrate
at one 
  of its natural resonance frequencies.

Obviously uneven rails will cause 
  a reed to twist
somewhat, making the development of a squeak more 
  likely,
but apparently a high baffle just behind the tip rail
changes 
  the way the reed responds due to the Bernoulli
effect. I wish I had the 
  quote at hand, but IIRC the point
is that to effectively get the reed to 
  oscillate you need
a bit of space just behind the tip rail. If I can 
  locate
it I will post it.

I suspect that a thin tip rail, if it is 
  even, creates no
problem, but any unevenness will tend to be magnified 
  if
it is very thin. The point of the game is to get the reed
to open and 
  close as a unit without twisting on its
midline.

Toby

--- 
  Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@yahoo. com> 
  wrote:

> Now you are making me think about it...
> 
> 
  One part is that they do not always line up the reed
> well and/or they 
  use a reed that may be a little
> damaged.  Other parts are a 
  tight embouchure with
> very little mouthpiece taken in and the 
  pressence
> high blowing pressure in an effert to get the set-up
> 
  to speak or to play louder.  A thick tip rail can
> not fix all 
  of these issues but it can make it
> easier to get the reed to seal at 
  the tip.  It also
> removes the "highs" from sound spectrum 
  which I
> think come from the very tip of the 
  reed
vibrating.&# 160;
> A squeak is high partial running 
  amuck.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
  ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: "tdewinter@mchsi. com" <tdewinter@mchsi. com>
> 
  To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
> 
  Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 10:44:31 AM
> Subject: Re: 
  [MouthpieceWork] Re: tip rail again
> 
> 
> What does a 
  "beginner" do wrong to cause squeaking?
> 
> Tom De Winter
> 
  
> ------------ -- Original message from Keith Bradbury
> 
  <kwbradbury@yahoo. com>: 
  ------------ -- 
> >
> >  
> 
  >Squeaking on thin tip rails is more of a beginner's
> 
  problem.  We are probably not doing much refacing
> work for 
  beginners.&# 160; But if you do, I would
> recommend a thick tip 
  rail.
> >
> 
> 
> 



 

      

    
    
	
	 
	
	








	


	
	


      

-Hi, I have a question regarding your response.  When one takes a mouthpiece and sucks air from the opposite end and observes the reed motion is this typical of the reed motion during playing?  It always looks like the center is motionless and the wings do all the work.  -- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, <kymarto123@...> wrote:
>
> Squeaking is caused AFAIK by a lateral rocking motion of
> the reed around the longitudinal axis--the reed twists
> from side to side, touching first one side of the tip rail
> and then the other. Because this doesn't allow a standing
> wave to develop in the bore, the reed is free to vibrate
> at one of its natural resonance frequencies.
> 
> Obviously uneven rails will cause a reed to twist
> somewhat, making the development of a squeak more likely,
> but apparently a high baffle just behind the tip rail
> changes the way the reed responds due to the Bernoulli
> effect. I wish I had the quote at hand, but IIRC the point
> is that to effectively get the reed to oscillate you need
> a bit of space just behind the tip rail. If I can locate
> it I will post it.
> 
> I suspect that a thin tip rail, if it is even, creates no
> problem, but any unevenness will tend to be magnified if
> it is very thin. The point of the game is to get the reed
> to open and close as a unit without twisting on its
> midline.
> 
> Toby
> 
> --- Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
> 
> > Now you are making me think about it...
> > 
> > One part is that they do not always line up the reed
> > well and/or they use a reed that may be a little
> > damaged.  Other parts are a tight embouchure with
> > very little mouthpiece taken in and the pressence
> > high blowing pressure in an effert to get the set-up
> > to speak or to play louder.  A thick tip rail can
> > not fix all of these issues but it can make it
> > easier to get the reed to seal at the tip.  It also
> > removes the "highs" from sound spectrum which I
> > think come from the very tip of the reed
> vibrating. 
> > A squeak is high partial running amuck.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > From: "tdewinter@..." <tdewinter@...>
> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 10:44:31 AM
> > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: tip rail again
> > 
> > 
> > What does a "beginner" do wrong to cause squeaking?
> > 
> > Tom De Winter
> > 
> > -------------- Original message from Keith Bradbury
> > <kwbradbury@...>: -------------- 
> > >
> > >  
> > >Squeaking on thin tip rails is more of a beginner's
> > problem.  We are probably not doing much refacing
> > work for beginners.  But if you do, I would
> > recommend a thick tip rail.
> > >
> > 
> > 
> >
>

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "arnoldstang3" <john_w_price33@...> wrote:
>
> -Hi, I have a question regarding your response.  When one takes a mouthpiece and sucks air from the opposite end and observes the reed motion is this typical of the reed motion during playing?  It always looks like the center is motionless and the wings do all the work.  -- 

That is an excellent question! Does the mouthpiece produce the same note this way? If so, the motion could be similar and slow motion photography could be informative.

We need a slow motion camera in someone's mouth to see how the reed really moves. Theory and quotes aside, how can we do this without surgery? I want to see this!

Ev er e tt

In case you have not seen it:

http://www.selmer.fr/

Click on upper right flag for your language.  Click on Manufacturing and Mouthpieces.  It shows a low res slide show with comments as you move your mouse arrow over the pics. 


      

A couple of people have mentioned squeaking coming from uneven or tipped rails.  Here's something that I tried on a couple of mps and had good results despite being quick and dirty test as to mp symmetry.

I have a BARI alto reed that is transluscent plastic (as are Leguerre).  Put the reed on and go to the bathroom sink.  Holding the reed tight agaist the lay, fill the mp with water.  Put the shank end in your mouth and suck until you can let go of the reed and hold the reed against the lay with suction.  As you reduce the suction (or maybe you won't even have to), you can find where air first enters by the seeing the bubbles.  You might have to apply pressure to the reed to get a good test at the tip area, depending on the lay and the stiffness of the reed.

This can show you possible problem areas.  Maybe a tiny uneveness in the lay on one side.  Maybe an uneven tip.  Maybe an uneven rail.  The actual problem can be detected with further inspection and measuring.  The test can quickly point you to the right area if it is a problem caused by uneveness.

Of the mps I've tried this on, two failed miserably.  One mouthpiece leaked first about halfway up the lay on one side.  Since the problem was between two feeler gauge measurements, after I saw the leak I went back with interim measurements and the uneveness showed up better on the plot.  That mp was just a little dull and unresponsive.  Since it was hard rubber and I was refacing it, I probably would have gotten the area anyway, but now I knew to pay special attention to that area.

My second "problem" mp squeaked sometimes.  It leaked air badly under the suction test right at the junction of one tip/side rail.  It was perfectly even when measured, but that area was tipped enough so that the sealing area was thin and it failed there first.  I had to open the mp up slightly to get rid of that sunken area, which required some adjustment of the whole lay, but it stopped the squeaking.  The leaky tip was on an Otto Link STM that might have been worked on before but that probably didn't cause the problem.  It was either made that way or dropped without sustaining any obvious damage (I'd guess the latter).

Once the rails are smooth and the same width, the suction failure tends to be more "catastrophic" and there aren't any small areas that fail first.  Your results may vary.  I'm thinking of getting a BARI tenor reed just for using for a suction test.

Mark

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "fidlershorns" <grassinospam@...> wrote:
> That is an excellent question! Does the mouthpiece produce the same note this way? If so, the motion could be similar and slow motion photography could be informative.
> 
> We need a slow motion camera in someone's mouth to see how the reed really moves. Theory and quotes aside, how can we do this without surgery? I want to see this!
> 
> Ev er e tt
>

I have for some time used this method to teach students what an embouchure needs to do.  If one puts a finger on each side of the reed over the side rails and presses down while sucking through the shank end of the mouthpiece, one will see the reed vibration change to a flat form.  Also, to demonstrate the bad effects of too much biting, put a finger over the whole flat surface of the reed at this point and press down - you will see that the opening disappears and then it is very hard to get air through. No air, no vibration!

Cheers,

Geoff Secomb.

Should be doable with fiber optics through the nose into the mouth.

Any volunteers?

Tom

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: fidlershorns 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 5:56 PM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] REED MOTION


    --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "arnoldstang3" <john_w_price33@...> wrote:
  >
  > -Hi, I have a question regarding your response. When one takes a mouthpiece and sucks air from the opposite end and observes the reed motion is this typical of the reed motion during playing? It always looks like the center is motionless and the wings do all the work. -- 

  That is an excellent question! Does the mouthpiece produce the same note this way? If so, the motion could be similar and slow motion photography could be informative.

  We need a slow motion camera in someone's mouth to see how the reed really moves. Theory and quotes aside, how can we do this without surgery? I want to see this!

  Ev er e tt



  

I wonder; if the reed was impregnated/sprayed with a light coating of a metallic compound, would that change the vibratory characteristics of the reed?  If it was applied lightly enough, it might not change it too much.  Then, it might be photographed using x-ray/fluoroscopy through the side of the face.  Unless the cheek bones would interfere too much.  Any ideas?

 Thank you,


David




________________________________
From: fidlershorns <grassinospam@...>
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 3:56:17 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] REED MOTION

  
--- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "arnoldstang3" <john_w_price33@ ...> wrote:
>
> -Hi, I have a question regarding your response.  When one takes a mouthpiece and sucks air from the opposite end and observes the reed motion is this typical of the reed motion during playing?  It always looks like the center is motionless and the wings do all the work.  -- 

That is an excellent question! Does the mouthpiece produce the same note this way? If so, the motion could be similar and slow motion photography could be informative.

We need a slow motion camera in someone's mouth to see how the reed really moves. Theory and quotes aside, how can we do this without surgery? I want to see this!

Ev er e tt


   


      

There used to be a video on youtube of a clarinetist performing with  
an endoscope inside his mouth  pointed at the mouthpiece/reed.  The  
video had been slowed so that it was very easy to see the motion of  
the reed.  I've spent about an hour with various search engines, but  
unfortunately I can no longer find it.  I assume that it was a very  
small instrument that was stuck through the back corner of one side of  
the mouth, but I suppose it could have been run through the nose.

I watched the video quite some time ago, but my main recollection is  
that I was simply surprised by how much of the time the reed spent  
closed against the mouthpiece (ie. it seemed to be still more than it  
was moving).

If anyone else can find a copy of this video, we should definitely  
post it in the files area.

Regards,
Walter


On Sep 13, 2009, at 8:23 PM, Tom De Winter wrote:

>
> Should be doable with fiber optics through the nose into the mouth.
>
> Any volunteers?
>
> Tom
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: fidlershorns
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 5:56 PM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] REED MOTION
>
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@...m, "arnoldstang3"  
> <john_w_price33@...> wrote:
> >
> > -Hi, I have a question regarding your response. When one takes a  
> mouthpiece and sucks air from the opposite end and observes the reed  
> motion is this typical of the reed motion during playing? It always  
> looks like the center is motionless and the wings do all the work. --
>
> That is an excellent question! Does the mouthpiece produce the same  
> note this way? If so, the motion could be similar and slow motion  
> photography could be informative.
>
> We need a slow motion camera in someone's mouth to see how the reed  
> really moves. Theory and quotes aside, how can we do this without  
> surgery? I want to see this!
>
> Ev er e tt
>
>
>
> 

"
Should be doable with fiber optics through the nose 
into the mouth.
 
Any volunteers?"

We could teach someone with pierced cheeks (facial) to play and use them as the test subject.





--- On Mon, 9/14/09, Tom De Winter <tdewinter@...> wrote:

From: Tom De Winter <tdewinter@...>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] REED MOTION
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 1:23 AM






 




    
                  


Should be doable with fiber optics through the nose 
into the mouth.
 
Any volunteers?
 
Tom
 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: 
  fidlershorns 
  To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com 
  
  Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 5:56 
  PM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] REED 
  MOTION
  
  
  
  --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, 
  "arnoldstang3" <john_w_price33@ ...> wrote:
>
> -Hi, I 
  have a question regarding your response. When one takes a mouthpiece and sucks 
  air from the opposite end and observes the reed motion is this typical of the 
  reed motion during playing? It always looks like the center is motionless and 
  the wings do all the work. -- 

That is an excellent question! Does the 
  mouthpiece produce the same note this way? If so, the motion could be similar 
  and slow motion photography could be informative.

We need a slow motion 
  camera in someone's mouth to see how the reed really moves. Theory and quotes 
  aside, how can we do this without surgery? I want to see this!

Ev er e 
  tt



 

      

    
    
	
	 
	
	








	


	
	


      

No, the reed motion sucking is much different than blowing; first because lip damping plays a very large role in the behavior of the reed, and second because reed behavior is also controlled by the coupling to the air column of the sax.

The easy way to accomplish this would be with an artificial embouchure. 

Toby

fidlershorns <grassinospam@...> wrote:                                    --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "arnoldstang3" <john_w_price33@...> wrote:
 >
 > -Hi, I have a question regarding your response.  When one takes a mouthpiece and sucks air from the opposite end and observes the reed motion is this typical of the reed motion during playing?  It always looks like the center is motionless and the wings do all the work.  -- 
 
 That is an excellent question! Does the mouthpiece produce the same note this way? If so, the motion could be similar and slow motion photography could be informative.
 
 We need a slow motion camera in someone's mouth to see how the reed really moves. Theory and quotes aside, how can we do this without surgery? I want to see this!
 
 Ev er e tt
 
 
        
             
                          
 

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Walter Hoehn <wassa@...> wrote:
>
> There used to be a video on youtube of a clarinetist performing with  
> an endoscope inside his mouth  pointed at the mouthpiece/reed.  The  
> video had been slowed so that it was very easy to see the motion of  
> the reed.  I've spent about an hour with various search engines, but  
> unfortunately I can no longer find it.  I assume that it was a very  
> small instrument that was stuck through the back corner of one side of  
> the mouth, but I suppose it could have been run through the nose.
> 
> I watched the video quite some time ago, but my main recollection is  
> that I was simply surprised by how much of the time the reed spent  
> closed against the mouthpiece (ie. it seemed to be still more than it  
> was moving).
> 
> If anyone else can find a copy of this video, we should definitely  
> post it in the files area.
> 
> Regards,
> Walter


I remember seeing this video.  The reed did not move smoothly open and closed, but rather, in a series of starts and stops corresponding with the overtones.  It followed the wave shape for 50% of the cycle (180 degrees) and the other half was open to varying degrees, a series of steps open and closed.  Very interesting.

Paul

The reed is probably closed for the amount of time it takes a sound wave to travel from the mouthpiece to the open tone hole and back... traveling at the speed of sound.  It is interesting that no air moves past the tip while the reed is closed for this brief moment.  Yet the player has the sensation that the air flow is constant.


      

For cylindrical instruments, the closed/open ratio is close to 50/50.  For conical instruments, it varies depending upon the note being played and the frequency of Frs:  Reed closed time = ratio of tube length to Frs, and can be as little as 25/75.   Once the reed closes, the air column becomes a resonating chamber.  A partial reflection of the wave occurs at the mouthpiece constriction/body tube opening, which returns to the mouthpiece and opens the reed again.  This is part of the reason why a soprano sax is lounder than a clarinet.



--- On Mon, 9/14/09, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:

From: Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: REED MOTION
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 7:52 PM






 




    
                  
The reed is probably closed for the amount of time it takes a sound wave to travel from the mouthpiece to the open tone hole and back... traveling at the speed of sound.  It is interesting that no air moves past the tip while the reed is closed for this brief moment.  Yet the player has the sensation that the air flow is constant.


      
 

      

    
    
	
	 
	
	








	


	
	


      

"It is interesting that no air moves past the tip while the reed is closed for this brief moment.  Yet the player has the sensation that the air flow is constant."

One does notice that a clarinet plays with more resistance than a soprano saxophone.