I've been following the facing length thread and couldn't help but 
wonder how the facing length corresponded to reed length/strength.  
What got me thinking about it is an experience the other day with my 
baritone sax.  I have an old Buescher True Tone and the common 
knowledge is that it plays best with a huge chamber mp.  Not a 
problem because I have an old Geo. M. Bundy.  But it's a #1 and I'm 
reluctant to open up the tip.  I also have a Bamber Jazz and other 
modern mps, but the intonation on all of them is horrible.

While messing around, I remembered that I had a Leguere (sp?) 3.5 
plastic reed for my contrabass clarinet that had a tiny split on one 
edge.  The reed is about 1mm wider than the baritone, and that's 
about where the split was.  So, I whittled it down to fit the 
baritone.  Tried it on the Bamber (still not good, but slightly 
better intonation) and on the Bundy.  I liked it.

But here's the deal.  The vamp on the contrabass reed is at least 
10mm longer than on a baritone sax reed.  Most information on 
reeds/mp fit says that the vamp should be as long as the mouthpiece 
window.  I was way long on that, but it played just fine.  It didn't 
play like a stiff baritone reed, probably because I was just using 
the softer 3/4ths of a stiff reed that was "too long."  It would be 
similar with shortening the face on a sax mp.  You end up 
playing "less" of the reed, which may make it stiffer (or not) 
depending on the cut and quality of the reed.

It's odd that there's more information available on how to adjust a 
mp facing curve than how to adjust a reed to work with a facing 
curve.  This is especially odd given that a good mp blank is $100 
and a good reed blank is 20 cents. The cost of the necessary tools 
and amount of time are probably also a 500:1 ratio.

Question is, when you shorten the facing on a mp, how much of the 
perceived change is because of the effect on the reed (all if it?) 
and how much of that change could be accomplished with a reed that 
had a different flex curve/quality?  Wouldn't it be a shame to 
experiment on the mp if a two minute reed adjustment could produce 
the same results?  If you need more volume in the mp, you can't fix 
that with a reed adjustment, but the effect of changing the facing 
length may be different.

Mark

In general, if the tip opening is kept constant, as facings get shorter reed strength must decrease, since you are asking the reed to deflect the same amount over a shorter distance (facing length).  In the same way, if you increase tip opening while holding facing length constant, this also requires reed strength to be decreased, as the tip must deflect farther over the same distance.  The two work in combination.  For example, the ubiquitous Vandoren B45 clarinet mouthpiece has an open tip (soft reed friendly) but a long facing (hard reed friendly), resulting in a mouthpiece that works best with a medium reed.

Bill Hausmann

If you have to mic a saxophone, the rest of the band is TOO LOUD!

--- On Wed, 12/31/08, flemingml2000 <marklfleming@...> wrote:

From: flemingml2000 <marklfleming@...>
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Random thoughts on facing length and reed length/strength
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, December 31, 2008, 8:07 PM

I've been following the facing length thread and couldn't help but 
wonder how the facing length corresponded to reed length/strength.  
What got me thinking about it is an experience the other day with my 
baritone sax.  I have an old Buescher True Tone and the common 
knowledge is that it plays best with a huge chamber mp.  Not a 
problem because I have an old Geo. M. Bundy.  But it's a #1 and I'm 
reluctant to open up the tip.  I also have a Bamber Jazz and other 
modern mps, but the intonation on all of them is horrible.

While messing around, I remembered that I had a Leguere (sp?) 3.5 
plastic reed for my contrabass clarinet that had a tiny split on one 
edge.  The reed is about 1mm wider than the baritone, and that's 
about where the split was.  So, I whittled it down to fit the 
baritone.  Tried it on the Bamber (still not good, but slightly 
better intonation) and on the Bundy.  I liked it.

But here's the deal.  The vamp on the contrabass reed is at least 
10mm longer than on a baritone sax reed.  Most information on 
reeds/mp fit says that the vamp should be as long as the mouthpiece 
window.  I was way long on that, but it played just fine.  It didn't 
play like a stiff baritone reed, probably because I was just using 
the softer 3/4ths of a stiff reed that was "too long."  It would be 
similar with shortening the face on a sax mp.  You end up 
playing "less" of the reed, which may make it stiffer (or not) 
depending on the cut and quality of the reed.

It's odd that there's more information available on how to adjust a 
mp facing curve than how to adjust a reed to work with a facing 
curve.  This is especially odd given that a good mp blank is $100 
and a good reed blank is 20 cents. The cost of the necessary tools 
and amount of time are probably also a 500:1 ratio.

Question is, when you shorten the facing on a mp, how much of the 
perceived change is because of the effect on the reed (all if it?) 
and how much of that change could be accomplished with a reed that 
had a different flex curve/quality?  Wouldn't it be a shame to 
experiment on the mp if a two minute reed adjustment could produce 
the same results?  If you need more volume in the mp, you can't fix 
that with a reed adjustment, but the effect of changing the facing 
length may be different.

Mark


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Okay, but what I'm wondering is whether and to what extent 
modification of the reed can produce the same or significantly 
similar results as the modification of the mp.  Instead of opening 
up the tip of the V45, which may require a softer reed to cross over 
the increased opening distance, what if the reed characteritics were 
changed instead?  

First, it could be that the player could like the larger opening on 
the V45 with the same reed.  The modified mp may require more air or 
stronger chops.  How much of this could have been accomplished with 
a stiffer reed?  Or, maybe nicking off 1/2mm with a reed clipper 
would alter the reed sufficient to produce the desired effect.

I can see the problem with analyzing reed characteristics.  The mp 
can be measured more readily.  There is some "black science" in 
determining the effect of chamber shape and mp material, but 
modifying a mp is much more quantifiable than modifying a reed.  How 
to determine the changing flex of the reed fore and aft, side to 
side, etc.?  How to measure the vamp end and is it a constant taper 
from shoulder to Xmm from the tip?  How do these characteristics 
change with heat and moisture?

I may have to look into the reed "flex gauges" that show up on Ebay 
once in a while.  Just what I need is another gadget on my bench.

Mark

The trouble with "measuring" reeds is that every one is individual.  Although they are all CUT the same way (that is, each one of a given type by one manufacturer), each individual blank is unique in how thick/thin its fibers are, etc.  After they are cut, they are graded for strength, but it is a rough measurement, really.  You can always work reeds, trimming the tips to make them stronger, sanding them to make them softer, working individual areas to improve response (see "Art of Saxophone Playing"), but you cannot arbitrarily apply a single measurement standard to all reeds.  If you could, they would all be perfect from the factory.  You definitely do have to match your reed brand/model to the mouthpiece you have to find the best result for you.

Bill Hausmann

If you have to mic a saxophone, the rest of the band is TOO LOUD!

--- On Thu, 1/1/09, flemingml2000 <marklfleming@msn.com> wrote:

From: flemingml2000 <marklfleming@...>
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Random thoughts on facing length and reed length/strength
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, January 1, 2009, 12:59 PM

Okay, but what I'm wondering is whether and to what extent 
modification of the reed can produce the same or significantly 
similar results as the modification of the mp.  Instead of opening 
up the tip of the V45, which may require a softer reed to cross over 
the increased opening distance, what if the reed characteritics were 
changed instead?  

First, it could be that the player could like the larger opening on 
the V45 with the same reed.  The modified mp may require more air or 
stronger chops.  How much of this could have been accomplished with 
a stiffer reed?  Or, maybe nicking off 1/2mm with a reed clipper 
would alter the reed sufficient to produce the desired effect.

I can see the problem with analyzing reed characteristics.  The mp 
can be measured more readily.  There is some "black science" in 
determining the effect of chamber shape and mp material, but 
modifying a mp is much more quantifiable than modifying a reed.  How 
to determine the changing flex of the reed fore and aft, side to 
side, etc.?  How to measure the vamp end and is it a constant taper 
from shoulder to Xmm from the tip?  How do these characteristics 
change with heat and moisture?

I may have to look into the reed "flex gauges" that show up on Ebay 
once in a while.  Just what I need is another gadget on my bench.

Mark


------------------------------------

Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com

Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.

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Groups Links






      

> From: "flemingml2000" <marklfleming@...>
> Reply-To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 17:59:55 -0000
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Random thoughts on facing length and reed
> length/strength
> 
> Okay, but what I'm wondering is whether and to what extent
> modification of the reed can produce the same or significantly
> similar results as the modification of the mp.  Instead of opening
> up the tip of the V45, which may require a softer reed to cross over
> the increased opening distance, what if the reed characteritics were
> changed instead? 
> 
> First, it could be that the player could like the larger opening on
> the V45 with the same reed.  The modified mp may require more air or
> stronger chops.  How much of this could have been accomplished with
> a stiffer reed?  Or, maybe nicking off 1/2mm with a reed clipper
> would alter the reed sufficient to produce the desired effect.
> 
> I can see the problem with analyzing reed characteristics.  The mp
> can be measured more readily.  There is some "black science" in
> determining the effect of chamber shape and mp material, but
> modifying a mp is much more quantifiable than modifying a reed.  How
> to determine the changing flex of the reed fore and aft, side to
> side, etc.?  How to measure the vamp end and is it a constant taper
> from shoulder to Xmm from the tip?  How do these characteristics
> change with heat and moisture?
> 
> I may have to look into the reed "flex gauges" that show up on Ebay
> once in a while.  Just what I need is another gadget on my bench.

Of all gadgets I've bought, the Macaferri "reed-o-meter" is among the most
useless.  Maybe if I had to roughly sort a bunch of unmarked reeds, it would
provide a starting point.

B

I bought a "Perfecta Reed" from Ben Armato and it works pretty good
for measuring the thickness of a reed.  It doesn't tell you the
strength but rather you measure various points on the reed.  I guess
the idea behind it is to measure a really good reed and then sand,
scrape, clip or whatever to another reed and it should play similarly,
although you still have numerous other variables to contend with.  It
is a lot of work and time consuming but I've made other reeds play
pretty well by patterning them after a really good reed I had a while
back.  I prefer to use the "Reed Wizard" also by Ben Armato as it's
quick and easy and gives great results.