Mouthpiece Work / Restoring old MPs side and tip rails
FROM: vinokurovs (vinokurovs)
SUBJECT: Restoring old MPs side and tip rails
Hello, Sorry for this simple and uninteresting question but please help me with the following: I have a dozen of older barrel chamber MPs that came with my vintage horns I collected and most of them have nicks, burrs, scratches, etc. on the rails as a result of time, use and careless storage. What is the simplest method to merely restore the rails without intent to reface (change parameters of the MP) the pieces? If I use a flat surface, such as a ground glass and some fine sandpaper and carefully sand the rails so that all scratches go away will it work? If I carefully follow the current MP facing shape while sanding the table is there anything to worry about? Will I need any "advanced" tools such as that transparent ruler and feeler gauges for this work? What are some pitfalls I may not be aware of? The last is a very naive question I guess :)
FROM: jimmitch47 (jimmitch47)
SUBJECT: >
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "vinokurovs" <vinokurovs@...> wrote: > > Hello, > > Sorry for this simple and uninteresting question but please help me > with the following: I have a dozen of older barrel chamber MPs that > came with my vintage horns I collected and most of them have nicks, > burrs, scratches, etc. on the rails as a result of time, use and > careless storage. > > What is the simplest method to merely restore the rails without intent > to reface (change parameters of the MP) the pieces? If I use a flat > surface, such as a ground glass and some fine sandpaper and carefully > sand the rails so that all scratches go away will it work? > If I carefully follow the current MP facing shape while sanding the > table is there anything to worry about? > Will I need any "advanced" tools such as that transparent ruler and > feeler gauges for this work? > What are some pitfalls I may not be aware of? The last is a very naive > question I guess :) > >I think as soon as you touch the mouthpiece to the sand paper you better be ready to reface it.Jim
FROM: bzalto (John Delia)
SUBJECT: Re: >
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FROM: lthom172 (Lori Thomas)
SUBJECT: Re: >
Any risk of toxicity with the superglue- I worry about that at times, even when installing temporary baffles.
Larry
--- On Thu, 10/23/08, John Delia <bzalto@...> wrote:
From: John Delia <bzalto@...>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] >
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, October 23, 2008, 9:34 AM
I have successfully used super glue to fill cracks or gouges and then, very carefully just sanded that off. It works as long as you take your time. John
On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 9:12 AM, jimmitch47 <jimmitch47@yahoo. com> wrote:
--- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "vinokurovs" <vinokurovs@. ..>
wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Sorry for this simple and uninteresting question but please help me
> with the following: I have a dozen of older barrel chamber MPs that
> came with my vintage horns I collected and most of them have nicks,
> burrs, scratches, etc. on the rails as a result of time, use and
> careless storage.
>
> What is the simplest method to merely restore the rails without
intent
> to reface (change parameters of the MP) the pieces? If I use a flat
> surface, such as a ground glass and some fine sandpaper and
carefully
> sand the rails so that all scratches go away will it work?
> If I carefully follow the current MP facing shape while sanding the
> table is there anything to worry about?
> Will I need any "advanced" tools such as that transparent ruler and
> feeler gauges for this work?
> What are some pitfalls I may not be aware of? The last is a very
naive
> question I guess :)
>
>I think as soon as you touch the mouthpiece to the sand paper you
better be ready to reface it.Jim
FROM: bzalto (John Delia)
SUBJECT: Re: >
[ Attachment content not displayed ]
FROM: crcieslik (crcieslik)
SUBJECT: Re: >
Larry, superglue(crazy glue)is not only toxic, but it is also soluable in saliva. Chic --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Lori Thomas <lthom172@...> wrote: > > Any risk of toxicity with the superglue- I worry about that at times, even when installing temporary baffles. > > Larry > > --- On Thu, 10/23/08, John Delia <bzalto@...> wrote: > > From: John Delia <bzalto@...> > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, October 23, 2008, 9:34 AM > > > > > > > I have successfully used super glue to fill cracks or gouges and then, very carefully just sanded that off. It works as long as you take your time. John > > > On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 9:12 AM, jimmitch47 <jimmitch47@yahoo. com> wrote: > > > > > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "vinokurovs" <vinokurovs@ ..> > wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > Sorry for this simple and uninteresting question but please help me > > with the following: I have a dozen of older barrel chamber MPs that > > came with my vintage horns I collected and most of them have nicks, > > burrs, scratches, etc. on the rails as a result of time, use and > > careless storage. > > > > What is the simplest method to merely restore the rails without > intent > > to reface (change parameters of the MP) the pieces? If I use a flat > > surface, such as a ground glass and some fine sandpaper and > carefully > > sand the rails so that all scratches go away will it work? > > If I carefully follow the current MP facing shape while sanding the > > table is there anything to worry about? > > Will I need any "advanced" tools such as that transparent ruler and > > feeler gauges for this work? > > What are some pitfalls I may not be aware of? The last is a very > naive > > question I guess :) > > > >I think as soon as you touch the mouthpiece to the sand paper you > better be ready to reface it.Jim >
FROM: tenorman1952 (Paul C.)
SUBJECT: Re: >
Super glues, aka CA glues, aka Cyanoacrylates, have been used for emergency expedient wound closure. There are other medical uses.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2187/was-super-glue-invented-to-seal-battle-wounds-in-vietnam
"As a result, in 1998 the FDA approved 2-octyl cyanoacrylate for use in closing wounds and surgical incisions, and in 2001 approved it for use as a "barrier against common bacterial microbes including certain staphylococci, pseudomonads, and Escherichia coli" (reference 2). This latest incarnation was marketed under the name Traumaseal as well as the more popular Dermabond.
"Cyanoacrylate glues also find use in medicine for orthopedic surgery, dental and oral medicine (marketed as Soothe-n-Seal), veterinary medicine (Nexaband), and for home use as Band Aid brand Liquid Bandage. It even has been explored as a potential treatment for emphysema, where it can be used to seal off diseased lung passages without the need for invasive surgery."
Paul Coats
John Delia <bzalto@...> wrote:
I have no idea, but i am sure there are suitable non toxic fillers that would also work. John
On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Lori Thomas <lthom172@...> wrote:
Any risk of toxicity with the superglue- I worry about that at times, even when installing temporary baffles.
Larry
--- On Thu, 10/23/08, John Delia <bzalto@...> wrote:
From: John Delia <bzalto@...>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] >
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, October 23, 2008, 9:34 AM
I have successfully used super glue to fill cracks or gouges and then, very carefully just sanded that off. It works as long as you take your time. John
On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 9:12 AM, jimmitch47 <jimmitch47@yahoo. com> wrote:
--- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "vinokurovs" <vinokurovs@. ..>
wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Sorry for this simple and uninteresting question but please help me
> with the following: I have a dozen of older barrel chamber MPs that
> came with my vintage horns I collected and most of them have nicks,
> burrs, scratches, etc. on the rails as a result of time, use and
> careless storage.
>
> What is the simplest method to merely restore the rails without
intent
> to reface (change parameters of the MP) the pieces? If I use a flat
> surface, such as a ground glass and some fine sandpaper and
carefully
> sand the rails so that all scratches go away will it work?
> If I carefully follow the current MP facing shape while sanding the
> table is there anything to worry about?
> Will I need any "advanced" tools such as that transparent ruler and
> feeler gauges for this work?
> What are some pitfalls I may not be aware of? The last is a very
naive
> question I guess :)
>
>I think as soon as you touch the mouthpiece to the sand paper you
better be ready to reface it.Jim
Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from
http://www.saxrax.com
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
FROM: kymarto (kymarto123@...)
SUBJECT: Re: >
I have never heard that cyanoacrylates are toxic after they cure. The fumes of curing cyanoacrylate are definitely nasty, however.
Toby
crcieslik <crcieslik@...> wrote: Larry,
superglue(crazy glue)is not only toxic, but it is also soluable in
saliva.
Chic
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Lori Thomas <lthom172@...>
wrote:
>
> Any risk of toxicity with the superglue- I worry about that at
times, even when installing temporary baffles.
>
> Larry
>
> --- On Thu, 10/23/08, John Delia <bzalto@...> wrote:
>
> From: John Delia <bzalto@...>
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] >
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, October 23, 2008, 9:34 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I have successfully used super glue to fill cracks or gouges and
then, very carefully just sanded that off. It works as long as you
take your time. John
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 9:12 AM, jimmitch47 <jimmitch47@yahoo. com>
wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "vinokurovs"
<vinokurovs@ ..>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Sorry for this simple and uninteresting question but please help
me
> > with the following: I have a dozen of older barrel chamber MPs
that
> > came with my vintage horns I collected and most of them have
nicks,
> > burrs, scratches, etc. on the rails as a result of time, use and
> > careless storage.
> >
> > What is the simplest method to merely restore the rails without
> intent
> > to reface (change parameters of the MP) the pieces? If I use a
flat
> > surface, such as a ground glass and some fine sandpaper and
> carefully
> > sand the rails so that all scratches go away will it work?
> > If I carefully follow the current MP facing shape while sanding
the
> > table is there anything to worry about?
> > Will I need any "advanced" tools such as that transparent ruler
and
> > feeler gauges for this work?
> > What are some pitfalls I may not be aware of? The last is a very
> naive
> > question I guess :)
> >
> >I think as soon as you touch the mouthpiece to the sand paper you
> better be ready to reface it.Jim
>
FROM: kymarto (kymarto123@...)
SUBJECT: Re: >
Did some further research. It is indeed somewhat toxic, but apparently not terribly so. Read this:
www.jniosh.go.jp/en/indu_hel/pdf/42-2-14.pdf
Toby
kymarto123@... wrote: I have never heard that cyanoacrylates are toxic after they cure. The fumes of curing cyanoacrylate are definitely nasty, however.
Toby
crcieslik <crcieslik@...> wrote:
Larry,
superglue(crazy glue)is not only toxic, but it is also soluable in
saliva.
Chic
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Lori Thomas <lthom172@...>
wrote:
>
> Any risk of toxicity with the superglue- I worry about that at
times, even when installing temporary baffles.
>
> Larry
>
> --- On Thu, 10/23/08, John Delia <bzalto@...> wrote:
>
> From: John Delia <bzalto@...>
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] >
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, October 23, 2008, 9:34 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I have successfully used super glue to fill cracks or gouges and
then, very carefully just sanded that off. It works as long as you
take your time. John
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 9:12 AM, jimmitch47 <jimmitch47@yahoo. com>
wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "vinokurovs"
<vinokurovs@ ..>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Sorry for this simple and uninteresting question but please help
me
> > with the following: I have a dozen of older barrel chamber MPs
that
> > came with my vintage horns I collected and most of them have
nicks,
> > burrs, scratches, etc. on the rails as a result of time, use and
> > careless storage.
> >
> > What is the simplest method to merely restore the rails without
> intent
> > to reface (change parameters of the MP) the pieces? If I use a
flat
> > surface, such as a ground glass and some fine sandpaper and
> carefully
> > sand the rails so that all scratches go away will it work?
> > If I carefully follow the current MP facing shape while sanding
the
> > table is there anything to worry about?
> > Will I need any "advanced" tools such as that transparent ruler
and
> > feeler gauges for this work?
> > What are some pitfalls I may not be aware of? The last is a very
> naive
> > question I guess :)
> >
> >I think as soon as you touch the mouthpiece to the sand paper you
> better be ready to reface it.Jim
>
FROM: crcieslik (crcieslik)
SUBJECT: Re: >
Cyanoacrylates have many uses in medicine. I have used them in my dental practice for many years primarily for temporary repairs-it is quite soluable in saliva. A repair only lasts about 2-3 weeks before dissolving and breaking. With that in mind, it probably is not a good choice for mouthpiece repairs. An acrylic filler is a better choice. As far as toxicity, given that it washes out so quickly, it is something I don't recommend. Remember, it is my profession that insisted for years mercury/amalgam fillings were safe....... Chic --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, <kymarto123@...> wrote: > > Did some further research. It is indeed somewhat toxic, but apparently not terribly so. Read this: > > www.jniosh.go.jp/en/indu_hel/pdf/42-2-14.pdf > > Toby > > kymarto123@... wrote: I have never heard that cyanoacrylates are toxic after they cure. The fumes of curing cyanoacrylate are definitely nasty, however. > > Toby > > crcieslik <crcieslik@...> wrote: > Larry, > superglue(crazy glue)is not only toxic, but it is also soluable in > saliva. > Chic > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Lori Thomas <lthom172@> > wrote: > > > > Any risk of toxicity with the superglue- I worry about that at > times, even when installing temporary baffles. > > > > Larry > > > > --- On Thu, 10/23/08, John Delia <bzalto@> wrote: > > > > From: John Delia <bzalto@> > > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] > > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Thursday, October 23, 2008, 9:34 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have successfully used super glue to fill cracks or gouges and > then, very carefully just sanded that off. It works as long as you > take your time. John > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 9:12 AM, jimmitch47 <jimmitch47@yahoo. com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, "vinokurovs" > <vinokurovs@ ..> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > Sorry for this simple and uninteresting question but please help > me > > > with the following: I have a dozen of older barrel chamber MPs > that > > > came with my vintage horns I collected and most of them have > nicks, > > > burrs, scratches, etc. on the rails as a result of time, use and > > > careless storage. > > > > > > What is the simplest method to merely restore the rails without > > intent > > > to reface (change parameters of the MP) the pieces? If I use a > flat > > > surface, such as a ground glass and some fine sandpaper and > > carefully > > > sand the rails so that all scratches go away will it work? > > > If I carefully follow the current MP facing shape while sanding > the > > > table is there anything to worry about? > > > Will I need any "advanced" tools such as that transparent ruler > and > > > feeler gauges for this work? > > > What are some pitfalls I may not be aware of? The last is a very > > naive > > > question I guess :) > > > > > >I think as soon as you touch the mouthpiece to the sand paper you > > better be ready to reface it.Jim > > >
FROM: vinokurovs (vinokurovs)
SUBJECT: Re: >
> > > >I think as soon as you touch the mouthpiece to the sand paper you > better be ready to reface it.Jim > Thanks for a warning, I haven't found anything useful on the subject in below messages except for an advice to use superglue. Thanks for that but I honestly don't like such repairs as I'm sort of more of a purist. If I'm faced with refacing anyway, what would be the correct procedure to follow keeping in mind I don't want to change the MP facing but simply to restore it? Is this task feasible at all? Suppose I had a talent, or luck, or precise machinery to take off some HR from the rails but completely following the original MP facing shape until the deepest scratch disappeared. Let's assume I've taken off no more then 0.2 mm. What else would have to be done to bring the MP to normal playing condition? Please try to answer the question as if you were doing it yourself and not trying to send me to an experienced refacer or make me forget about my idea altogether. Thanks!
FROM: bzalto (John Delia)
SUBJECT: Re: >
[ Attachment content not displayed ]
FROM: dantorosian (Dan Torosian)
SUBJECT: Re: >
This html message parsed with html2text ---------------------------What you would need is not talent, luck, or machinery, but experience (and the right tools). 0.2 mm is significant when talking about mouthpiece rails. The "same" curve moved over 0.2 mm may not play the same at all. My advice would be to send it to a pro if you want to save the mouthpiece. Dan T vinokurovs wrote: > > > > > >I think as soon as you touch the mouthpiece to the sand paper you > > better be ready to reface it.Jim > > > > Thanks for a warning, I haven't found anything useful on the subject > in below messages except for an advice to use superglue. Thanks for > that but I honestly don't like such repairs as I'm sort of more of a > purist. > > If I'm faced with refacing anyway, what would be the correct > procedure to follow keeping in mind I don't want to change the MP > facing but simply to restore it? Is this task feasible at all? > > Suppose I had a talent, or luck, or precise machinery to take off > some HR from the rails but completely following the original MP > facing shape until the deepest scratch disappeared. Let's assume I've > taken off no more then 0.2 mm. What else would have to be done to > bring the MP to normal playing condition? > > Please try to answer the question as if you were doing it yourself > and not trying to send me to an experienced refacer or make me forget > about my idea altogether. > Thanks! > >
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Cleaning up a facing (Was ">")
I agree with John. You said you have a lot of these, so you can pick some to practice on or get some junk plastic clarinet mouthpieces to practice on. Obtain a glass gage and a set of feeler gages. A tip gage or/calipers. Practice measuring facings until you get consistent results.
See the Files area on the MouthpieceWork Yahoo site for the list of reworking steps and suggested tools. You will need a flat work surface (glass plate), a selection if fine grit sandpapers, and probably a small half-round needle file.
Someone with experience or "the knack" probably could take shortcuts and do the job with a sandpaper and a countertop. But there is added risk when you do not use the tools of the trade and do not take the time to develop the needed skills.
--- On Fri, 10/24/08, John Delia <bzalto@...> wrote:
From: John Delia <bzalto@...>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: >
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, October 24, 2008, 7:36 AM
The only accurate way as I see it would be to measure the mouthpiece as it is and then, depending upon the depth of the gouges or scratches, take that same amount from the table. Then duplicate the facing on the lay and finish off the tip rail to the original thickness. If you are careful, it will be very close to the original but never exactly the same. John
On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 7:26 AM, vinokurovs <vinokurovs@yahoo. com> wrote:
> >
> >I think as soon as you touch the mouthpiece to the sand paper you
> better be ready to reface it.Jim
>
Thanks for a warning, I haven't found anything useful on the subject
in below messages except for an advice to use superglue. Thanks for
that but I honestly don't like such repairs as I'm sort of more of a
purist.
If I'm faced with refacing anyway, what would be the correct
procedure to follow keeping in mind I don't want to change the MP
facing but simply to restore it? Is this task feasible at all?
Suppose I had a talent, or luck, or precise machinery to take off
some HR from the rails but completely following the original MP
facing shape until the deepest scratch disappeared. Let's assume I've
taken off no more then 0.2 mm. What else would have to be done to
bring the MP to normal playing condition?
Please try to answer the question as if you were doing it yourself
and not trying to send me to an experienced refacer or make me forget
about my idea altogether.
Thanks!
FROM: jimmitch47 (jimmitch47)
SUBJECT: Re: >
From jimmitch >I feel mouthpiece refacing is an art.You need a good feel and the right tools. I sell a refacing kit with instruction that will help.You will have a hard time trying to make the mouthpiece the same as it was before you refaced it.It can be done but you will have to be real good to do it.I try to make the piece better then before.Start on mouthpieces that you don't care about you need to practice before you try a good piece.Jim