I reasently got a questione from a sax player, playing in a militery 
band. Some of the sax players felt that when they were playing and 
marching in the heat on a synny day, their hard rubber mouthpieces were 
changing, and sounding different. They are very qualified professionel 
players, and well avare of the problems with the reed under such 
conditions, so that's not the issue. 
Has anybody in this great group heard of such a problem, or is it just 
a "feeling" they get rather than a real problem. -- Is the rubber 
expanding, or what?  I would be very greatful if some more experinced 
refacers had some thougts about it.

Thanks!

Best Helge

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "railwayreed" <helgsolv@...> 
wrote:
>
> I reasently got a questione from a sax player, playing in a 
militery 
> band. Some of the sax players felt that when they were playing and 
> marching in the heat on a synny day, their hard rubber mouthpieces 
were 
> changing, and sounding different. They are very qualified 
professionel 
> players, and well avare of the problems with the reed under such 
> conditions, so that's not the issue. 
> Has anybody in this great group heard of such a problem, or is it 
just 
> a "feeling" they get rather than a real problem. -- Is the rubber 
> expanding, or what?  I would be very greatful if some more 
experinced 
> refacers had some thougts about it.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Best Helge
>

When I was young, I've played for several years alto saxophone in a 
marching band often in extreme wheater conditions. I always used a 
cheap yamaha plastic mouthpiece and never had any problem. What kind 
of mouthpieces they play? In any case every material including brass 
(metal mouthpieces) expands with heat. This problem is more evident 
in wood mouthpieces which are more sensitive to external changes but 
it is present in HR mouthpiece too. In any case if the expansion 
is "uniform" it should not affect so much the mouthpiece response 
but... if for some reason it is not uniform and table bending is 
involved then the player will clearly feel something of different 
(the mouthpice can easily become unplayable).
Just an opinion based on direct experience,

Dan

[ Attachment content not displayed ]

Hi,
     I wonder if  heating up a rubber  mouthpiece affects how the air
"bounces off the sides, or perhaps  a tight ligature  can temporarily
distort  a rubber facing.
    I had the opposite experience on a cold winter day in Montreal  (
around -25F) . I left the reed and   ligature  tight on the mouthpiece
for several hours in my car and distorted the table permanently on a
really nice rubber Otto Link. I didn't  know how to reface at the time
and my poor efforts made it even worse.        Peter Deley
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "lcchtt" <Letydan@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "railwayreed" helgsolv@
> wrote:
> >
> > I reasently got a questione from a sax player, playing in a
> militery
> > band. Some of the sax players felt that when they were playing and
> > marching in the heat on a synny day, their hard rubber mouthpieces
> were
> > changing, and sounding different. They are very qualified
> professionel
> > players, and well avare of the problems with the reed under such
> > conditions, so that's not the issue.
> > Has anybody in this great group heard of such a problem, or is it
> just
> > a "feeling" they get rather than a real problem. -- Is the rubber
> > expanding, or what?  I would be very greatful if some more
> experinced
> > refacers had some thougts about it.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Best Helge
> >
>
> When I was young, I've played for several years alto saxophone in a
> marching band often in extreme wheater conditions. I always used a
> cheap yamaha plastic mouthpiece and never had any problem. What kind
> of mouthpieces they play? In any case every material including brass
> (metal mouthpieces) expands with heat. This problem is more evident
> in wood mouthpieces which are more sensitive to external changes but
> it is present in HR mouthpiece too. In any case if the expansion
> is "uniform" it should not affect so much the mouthpiece response
> but... if for some reason it is not uniform and table bending is
> involved then the player will clearly feel something of different
> (the mouthpice can easily become unplayable).
> Just an opinion based on direct experience,
>
> Dan
>

Not just the mouthpiece is affected. Metal expands and contracts with
temperature, and the density of the air also changes. I think those are
probably larger effects.

I've noticed an intonation difference between practicing in a room at 85
degrees F and 70-75 degrees F, in terms of mouthpiece position on the neck
in order to be in tune.

I've also had the experience of playing a gig outdoors on a windy cloudy day
with sudden temperature shifts; every time a cool moist wind came up, I'd go
out of tune.

BL
> 
> Helge, When the saxophone is played with the hot sun beating down on the
> mouthpiece, very strange things do happen to the response of the instrument,
> but in my experience, as soon as it cools down all returns to normal.
> Whenever I do outdoor concerts, I make sure that the mpce is not exposed to
> the sun when I am not playing.  This lessens the bad effect ot the sun.
> John
> 
> On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 2:20 PM, railwayreed <helgsolv@...> wrote:
> 
>> I reasently got a questione from a sax player, playing in a militery
>> band. Some of the sax players felt that when they were playing and
>> marching in the heat on a synny day, their hard rubber mouthpieces were
>> changing, and sounding different. They are very qualified professionel
>> players, and well avare of the problems with the reed under such
>> conditions, so that's not the issue.
>> Has anybody in this great group heard of such a problem, or is it just
>> a "feeling" they get rather than a real problem. -- Is the rubber
>> expanding, or what? I would be very greatful if some more experinced
>> refacers had some thougts about it.
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> Best Helge
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 

 Of course temperature affects every type of instrument differently.
Most  big symphony orchestras have clauses in their contracts about not
having to play outside a certain temperature range.
    On single reed instruments, the last and probably most important
factor is what happens to the reed in hot or humid or very dry
conditions. These are the times when I make sure I  have a decent
synthetic reed in my pocket.        Peter
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Barry Isaac Levine
<barrylevine@...> wrote:
>
> Not just the mouthpiece is affected. Metal expands and contracts with
> temperature, and the density of the air also changes. I think those
are
> probably larger effects.
>
> I've noticed an intonation difference between practicing in a room at
85
> degrees F and 70-75 degrees F, in terms of mouthpiece position on the
neck
> in order to be in tune.
>
> I've also had the experience of playing a gig outdoors on a windy
cloudy day
> with sudden temperature shifts; every time a cool moist wind came up,
I'd go
> out of tune.
>
> BL
> >
> > Helge, When the saxophone is played with the hot sun beating down on
the
> > mouthpiece, very strange things do happen to the response of the
instrument,
> > but in my experience, as soon as it cools down all returns to
normal.
> > Whenever I do outdoor concerts, I make sure that the mpce is not
exposed to
> > the sun when I am not playing.  This lessens the bad effect ot the
sun.
> > John
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 2:20 PM, railwayreed helgsolv@... wrote:
> >
> >> I reasently got a questione from a sax player, playing in a
militery
> >> band. Some of the sax players felt that when they were playing and
> >> marching in the heat on a synny day, their hard rubber mouthpieces
were
> >> changing, and sounding different. They are very qualified
professionel
> >> players, and well avare of the problems with the reed under such
> >> conditions, so that's not the issue.
> >> Has anybody in this great group heard of such a problem, or is it
just
> >> a "feeling" they get rather than a real problem. -- Is the rubber
> >> expanding, or what? I would be very greatful if some more
experinced
> >> refacers had some thougts about it.
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> Best Helge
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>

Check this out  http://jodyjazz.com/lesson.coldhot.html

Jim Moncher
Colorado Springs, CO   719.271.1497

Bariaxman Radio

--- On Fri, 9/26/08, pfdeley <pfdeley@...> wrote:
From: pfdeley <pfdeley@...>
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Rubber mouthpieces
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, September 26, 2008, 9:18 AM










    
             Of course temperature affects every type of instrument differently.

Most  big symphony orchestras have clauses in their contracts about not

having to play outside a certain temperature range.

    On single reed instruments, the last and probably most important

factor is what happens to the reed in hot or humid or very dry

conditions. These are the times when I make sure I  have a decent

synthetic reed in my pocket.        Peter

--- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, Barry Isaac Levine

<barrylevine@ ...> wrote:

>

> Not just the mouthpiece is affected. Metal expands and contracts with

> temperature, and the density of the air also changes. I think those

are

> probably larger effects.

>

> I've noticed an intonation difference between practicing in a room at

85

> degrees F and 70-75 degrees F, in terms of mouthpiece position on the

neck

> in order to be in tune.

>

> I've also had the experience of playing a gig outdoors on a windy

cloudy day

> with sudden temperature shifts; every time a cool moist wind came up,

I'd go

> out of tune.

>

> BL

> >

> > Helge, When the saxophone is played with the hot sun beating down on

the

> > mouthpiece, very strange things do happen to the response of the

instrument,

> > but in my experience, as soon as it cools down all returns to

normal.

> > Whenever I do outdoor concerts, I make sure that the mpce is not

exposed to

> > the sun when I am not playing.  This lessens the bad effect ot the

sun.

> > John

> >

> > On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 2:20 PM, railwayreed helgsolv@... wrote:

> >

> >> I reasently got a questione from a sax player, playing in a

militery

> >> band. Some of the sax players felt that when they were playing and

> >> marching in the heat on a synny day, their hard rubber mouthpieces

were

> >> changing, and sounding different. They are very qualified

professionel

> >> players, and well avare of the problems with the reed under such

> >> conditions, so that's not the issue.

> >> Has anybody in this great group heard of such a problem, or is it

just

> >> a "feeling" they get rather than a real problem. -- Is the rubber

> >> expanding, or what? I would be very greatful if some more

experinced

> >> refacers had some thougts about it.

> >>

> >> Thanks!

> >>

> >> Best Helge

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >

>




      

    
    
	
	 
	
	








	


	
	

This html message parsed with html2text ---------------------------I'd love to hear from some of you engineers about this, but I think that the
higher pitch at higher temperatures is not due to the metal expanding on the
inside of the horn, but is due to the air column inside the horn expanding at
a much, much greater rate than the metal does. So while the tube of the
instrument may expand a very small bit, the air inside expands a whole lot,
resulting in an effectively shorter tube length for that amount of air. So the
pitch goes up in hot weather. Our sound is being made by the vibrating air
column - contrast this to guitars (and all strings) which get flat in the
heat, because their sound is being generated by the string itself, which gets
more slack (and flatter) as it expands. This is where the tuning of winds with
strings gets dicey - we de-tune in different directions with temperature
change.  
  
As to the original question that started this thread, my experience with
horns/mpcs/reeds out in the blazing sun is that the reed is much more
susceptible to change than the mouthpiece. It dries out (sometimes only on one
side), warps, etc.  
  
Dan T  
  
BariAxMan wrote:

> Check this out .com/lesson.coldhot.html  
>  
>  Jim Moncher  
>  Colorado Springs, CO  719.271.1497  
>  
>  [Bariaxman Radio](http://launch.yahoo.com/lc/?rt=0&rp1=0&rp243229750)  
>  
>  \\--- On **Fri, 9/26/08, pfdeley _com>_** wrote:  
>
>

>> From: pfdeley com>  
>  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Rubber mouthpieces  
>  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com  
>  Date: Friday, September 26, 2008, 9:18 AM  
>  
>  Of course temperature affects every type of instrument differently.  
>  Most big symphony orchestras have clauses in their contracts about not  
>  having to play outside a certain temperature range.  
>  On single reed instruments, the last and probably most important  
>  factor is what happens to the reed in hot or humid or very dry  
>  conditions. These are the times when I make sure I have a decent  
>  synthetic reed in my pocket. Peter  
>  \\--- In [MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups.
> com](mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com), Barry Isaac Levine  
>  wrote:  
>  >  
>  > Not just the mouthpiece is affected. Metal expands and contracts with  
>  > temperature, and the density of the air also changes. I think those  
>  are  
>  > probably larger effects.  
>  >  
>  > I've noticed an intonation difference between practicing in a room at  
>  85  
>  > degrees F and 70-75 degrees F, in terms of mouthpiece position on the  
>  neck  
>  > in order to be in tune.  
>  >  
>  > I've also had the experience of playing a gig outdoors on a windy  
>  cloudy day  
>  > with sudden temperature shifts; every time a cool moist wind came up,  
>  I'd go  
>  > out of tune.  
>  >  
>  > BL  
>  > >  
>  > > Helge, When the saxophone is played with the hot sun beating down on  
>  the  
>  > > mouthpiece, very strange things do happen to the response of the  
>  instrument,  
>  > > but in my experience, as soon as it cools down all returns to  
>  normal.  
>  > > Whenever I do outdoor concerts, I make sure that the mpce is not  
>  exposed to  
>  > > the sun when I am not playing. This lessens the bad effect ot the  
>  sun.  
>  > > John  
>  > >  
>  > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 2:20 PM, railwayreed helgsolv@... wrote:  
>  > >  
>  > >> I reasently got a questione from a sax player, playing in a  
>  militery  
>  > >> band. Some of the sax players felt that when they were playing and  
>  > >> marching in the heat on a synny day, their hard rubber mouthpieces  
>  were  
>  > >> changing, and sounding different. They are very qualified  
>  professionel  
>  > >> players, and well avare of the problems with the reed under such  
>  > >> conditions, so that's not the issue.  
>  > >> Has anybody in this great group heard of such a problem, or is it  
>  just  
>  > >> a "feeling" they get rather than a real problem. -- Is the rubber  
>  > >> expanding, or what? I would be very greatful if some more  
>  experinced  
>  > >> refacers had some thougts about it.  
>  > >>  
>  > >> Thanks!  
>  > >>  
>  > >> Best Helge  
>  > >>  
>  > >>  
>  > >>  
>  > >  
>  >  
>  
>  
>  
> ---

  Good points.
      I think you are right on in what you say. That is probably why bari saxes are the most stable pitch-wise in a sax section once everyone has warmed up. The bari is so big that the player's breath only warms the first section of the tubing. The remainder of the sax stays at ambient temperature.       Peter

--- On Fri, 9/26/08, Dan Torosian <dtorosian@...> wrote:

From: Dan Torosian <dtorosian@...>
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Rubber mouthpieces
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, September 26, 2008, 9:56 AM






I'd love to hear from some of you engineers about this, but I think that the higher pitch at higher temperatures is not due to the metal expanding on the inside of the horn, but is due to the air column inside the horn expanding at a much, much greater rate than the metal does. So while the tube of the instrument may expand a very small bit, the air inside expands a whole lot, resulting in an effectively shorter tube length for that amount of air.  So the pitch goes up in hot weather.  Our sound is being made by the vibrating air column - contrast this to guitars (and all strings) which get flat in the heat, because their sound is being generated by the string itself, which gets more slack (and flatter) as it expands.  This is where the tuning of winds with strings gets dicey - we de-tune in different directions with temperature change.

As to the original question that started this thread, my experience with horns/mpcs/reeds out in the blazing sun is that the reed is much more susceptible to change than the mouthpiece.  It dries out (sometimes only on one side), warps, etc.

Dan T

BariAxMan wrote: 






Check this out  http://jodyjazz. com/lesson. coldhot.html


Jim Moncher
Colorado Springs, CO 
719.271.1497

Bariaxman Radio

--- On Fri, 9/26/08, pfdeley <pfdeley@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: pfdeley <pfdeley@yahoo. com>
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Rubber mouthpieces
To: MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, September 26, 2008, 9:18 AM




Of course temperature affects every type of instrument differently.
Most big symphony orchestras have clauses in their contracts about not
having to play outside a certain temperature range.
On single reed instruments, the last and probably most important
factor is what happens to the reed in hot or humid or very dry
conditions. These are the times when I make sure I have a decent
synthetic reed in my pocket. Peter
--- In MouthpieceWork@ yahoogroups. com, Barry Isaac Levine
<barrylevine@ ...> wrote:
>
> Not just the mouthpiece is affected. Metal expands and contracts with
> temperature, and the density of the air also changes. I think those
are
> probably larger effects.
>
> I've noticed an intonation difference between practicing in a room at
85
> degrees F and 70-75 degrees F, in terms of mouthpiece position on the
neck
> in order to be in tune.
>
> I've also had the experience of playing a gig outdoors on a windy
cloudy day
> with sudden temperature shifts; every time a cool moist wind came up,
I'd go
> out of tune.
>
> BL
> >
> > Helge, When the saxophone is played with the hot sun beating down on
the
> > mouthpiece, very strange things do happen to the response of the
instrument,
> > but in my experience, as soon as it cools down all returns to
normal.
> > Whenever I do outdoor concerts, I make sure that the mpce is not
exposed to
> > the sun when I am not playing. This lessens the bad effect ot the
sun.
> > John
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 2:20 PM, railwayreed helgsolv@... wrote:
> >
> >> I reasently got a questione from a sax player, playing in a
militery
> >> band. Some of the sax players felt that when they were playing and
> >> marching in the heat on a synny day, their hard rubber mouthpieces
were
> >> changing, and sounding different. They are very qualified
professionel
> >> players, and well avare of the problems with the reed under such
> >> conditions, so that's not the issue.
> >> Has anybody in this great group heard of such a problem, or is it
just
> >> a "feeling" they get rather than a real problem. -- Is the rubber
> >> expanding, or what? I would be very greatful if some more
experinced
> >> refacers had some thougts about it.
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> Best Helge
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>

 














      

I’ll have to say thank you so much to everyone that responded to my question
about the mouthpieces. Now I have some really good back up in my answer to
the musicians. --  Thanks a lot again!

 

Best Helge

 

  _____  

Fra: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com]
På vegne av railwayreed
Sendt: 25. september 2008 20:21
Til: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [MouthpieceWork] Rubber mouthpieces

 

I reasently got a questione from a sax player, playing in a militery 
band. Some of the sax players felt that when they were playing and 
marching in the heat on a synny day, their hard rubber mouthpieces were 
changing, and sounding different. They are very qualified professionel 
players, and well avare of the problems with the reed under such 
conditions, so that's not the issue. 
Has anybody in this great group heard of such a problem, or is it just 
a "feeling" they get rather than a real problem. -- Is the rubber 
expanding, or what? I would be very greatful if some more experinced 
refacers had some thougts about it.

Thanks!

Best Helge