Mouthpiece Work / Molded mouthpieces
FROM: ko4py (Brent)
SUBJECT: Molded mouthpieces
When hard rubber mouthpieces are molded, are they then cured individually or in batches (post-cured by the mouthpiece manufacturer)? How does that work? Is there a hardener added to a liquid polymer prior to molding? Is the hardening process done at high temperatures? Or what? Thanks for any info. (I don't need to know about making mouthpieces from rod rubber or Delrin). - Brent
FROM: tenorman1952 (Paul C.)
SUBJECT: Re: Molded mouthpieces
I am not sure of the process on hard rubber. I know they are molded, giving a rough blank, and they still require facing, polishing, other work.
Since you are a clarinet player... with any mouthpiece, as different facings are applied, naturally, as you make bigger tip openings, the curve of the facing intersects the tip in differnt places. The baffle, or the upper surface inside, must be filed to form the tip rail. And the baffle must flow smootly to the rail. That is handwork, no machine can do it.
Runyon does make some student mpces, Model 22 (like Charlie Parker played) and Model 88, that within a very narrow range, Runyon's #3 - #5, no hand filing is required. But if you go over that, #6 or bigger, then it requires that hand work, which takes 5-10 minutes. But for the bread and butter student mpce, they can crank them out with minimal additional work.
Back to hard rubber, I am not sure how that is done. I have gotten raw blanks that needed finishing.
Some "hard rubber" mouthpieces are not. They are ABS with some ground up rubber in the mix. And ABS is poor for mpces. Cracks to easily. On the clarinet the barrel is banded to prevent cracks when the tenon of the mpce or clarinet is inserted. On the sax the mpce is forced over the corked end of the neck pipe. Cracking the shank is easy if the material is too thin. Often with hard rubber mpces I have put metal bands... especially the Selmer S80 and S90 models.
I have banded, in the many years I have done mpce work, only 3 or 4 old Runyon's, but that is very rare and I can't say it is from the plastic being old. But I've done lots of hard rubber mpces.
I THINK the rubber is hardened at temp, but don't really know the details.
Runyon makes some models from Delrin, which is a GREAT material. They are not molded, but machined on the exact same machines as they make their metal mpces.
The Runyon XL alto and tenor mpces are the same as the Metal Smoothbore models. The Metal Smoothbores are machined from brass with chrome plating. The XL's are machined the same from Delrin.
Delrin is, as you know, self lubricating, which is why it is so good for bushings and gears. And it machines beautifully and precisely, does not melt all over the tooling, and has good vibrational characteristics.
BTW, Runyon's acrylic/rubber alloy... they make some tuning barrels for clarinet from that same material. I have forgotten the lengths, but they had three lengths, with the correct reverse taper to the bore. No bands, not needed. Very good resonance, too.
Did you know Tom Ridenour has an all hard rubber clarinet? Also, Orpheus Musical Instruments (Steve Goodson Model saxophones) has a hard rubber clarinet.
Do you still play?
Paul
Brent <brentsmith@...> wrote:
When hard rubber mouthpieces are molded, are they then cured
individually or in batches (post-cured by the mouthpiece
manufacturer)? How does that work? Is there a hardener added to a
liquid polymer prior to molding? Is the hardening process done at high
temperatures? Or what? Thanks for any info. (I don't need to know
about making mouthpieces from rod rubber or Delrin). - Brent
Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from
http://www.saxrax.com
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
__________________________________________________
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FROM: tenorman1952 (Paul C.)
SUBJECT: Re: Molded mouthpieces
Duh... sorry Brent... I thought I was continuing a conversation with another guy, a clarinet player whose expertise was in plastics, on an electronics (Heathkit) group. We were talking about plastics vs. hard rubber, and problems with some old plastics as they age, lose esters, lose plasticity and develop cracks. I didn't notice this was from the mpce workgroup.
The "since you are a clarinet player" and "do you still play" comments were directed to the other fellow.
Paul
"Paul C." <tenorman1952@...> wrote:
I am not sure of the process on hard rubber. I know they are molded, giving a rough blank, and they still require facing, polishing, other work.
Since you are a clarinet player... with any mouthpiece, as different facings are applied, naturally, as you make bigger tip openings, the curve of the facing intersects the tip in differnt places. The baffle, or the upper surface inside, must be filed to form the tip rail. And the baffle must flow smootly to the rail. That is handwork, no machine can do it.
Runyon does make some student mpces, Model 22 (like Charlie Parker played) and Model 88, that within a very narrow range, Runyon's #3 - #5, no hand filing is required. But if you go over that, #6 or bigger, then it requires that hand work, which takes 5-10 minutes. But for the bread and butter student mpce, they can crank them out with minimal additional work.
Back to hard rubber, I am not sure how that is done. I have gotten raw blanks that needed finishing.
Some "hard rubber" mouthpieces are not. They are ABS with some ground up rubber in the mix. And ABS is poor for mpces. Cracks to easily. On the clarinet the barrel is banded to prevent cracks when the tenon of the mpce or clarinet is inserted. On the sax the mpce is forced over the corked end of the neck pipe. Cracking the shank is easy if the material is too thin. Often with hard rubber mpces I have put metal bands... especially the Selmer S80 and S90 models.
I have banded, in the many years I have done mpce work, only 3 or 4 old Runyon's, but that is very rare and I can't say it is from the plastic being old. But I've done lots of hard rubber mpces.
I THINK the rubber is hardened at temp, but don't really know the details.
Runyon makes some models from Delrin, which is a GREAT material. They are not molded, but machined on the exact same machines as they make their metal mpces.
The Runyon XL alto and tenor mpces are the same as the Metal Smoothbore models. The Metal Smoothbores are machined from brass with chrome plating. The XL's are machined the same from Delrin.
Delrin is, as you know, self lubricating, which is why it is so good for bushings and gears. And it machines beautifully and precisely, does not melt all over the tooling, and has good vibrational characteristics.
BTW, Runyon's acrylic/rubber alloy... they make some tuning barrels for clarinet from that same material. I have forgotten the lengths, but they had three lengths, with the correct reverse taper to the bore. No bands, not needed. Very good resonance, too.
Did you know Tom Ridenour has an all hard rubber clarinet? Also, Orpheus Musical Instruments (Steve Goodson Model saxophones) has a hard rubber clarinet.
Do you still play?
Paul
Brent <brentsmith@...> wrote:
When hard rubber mouthpieces are molded, are they then cured
individually or in batches (post-cured by the mouthpiece
manufacturer)? How does that work? Is there a hardener added to a
liquid polymer prior to molding? Is the hardening process done at high
temperatures? Or what? Thanks for any info. (I don't need to know
about making mouthpieces from rod rubber or Delrin). - Brent
Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from
http://www.saxrax.com
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@... __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from
http://www.saxrax.com
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
__________________________________________________
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FROM: tenorman1952 (Paul C.)
SUBJECT: Re: Molded mouthpieces
Probably the best ones to ask about hard rubber process would be Zinner in Germany. They not only make their own very high quality hard rubber mouthpieces, but supply blanks to other manufacturers.
Perhaps they can tell you more about rubber.
Paul
Brent <brentsmith@...> wrote:
When hard rubber mouthpieces are molded, are they then cured
individually or in batches (post-cured by the mouthpiece
manufacturer)? How does that work? Is there a hardener added to a
liquid polymer prior to molding? Is the hardening process done at high
temperatures? Or what? Thanks for any info. (I don't need to know
about making mouthpieces from rod rubber or Delrin). - Brent
Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from
http://www.saxrax.com
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com