I thought shortening the lay from 21mm to 18mm would be straightforward
(0.0015") but i seam to have messed things up.
Could someone please give me a step by step guide to the proper way in 
which the lay can be shortened, from 21mm to 18mm (0.0015")
Thankyou 
Peter

The way the geometry works out, it is very difficult to shorten a facing.
   
  Paul

pjhmusic2004 <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:
          I thought shortening the lay from 21mm to 18mm would be straightforward
(0.0015") but i seam to have messed things up.
Could someone please give me a step by step guide to the proper way in 
which the lay can be shortened, from 21mm to 18mm (0.0015")
Thankyou 
Peter



                           


Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
		http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
       
---------------------------------
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Thankyou for your reply, Paul
I am pleased you said it was difficult, i didn't realise this until. i
put mouthpiece to abrasive, even though i thought i had worked out on 
paper what to do! Experience is a wonderful educator, I am only 
pleased it was one of my mouthieces and not someone elses
Thankyou
peter


--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Paul C." <tenorman1952@...> 
wrote:
>
> The way the geometry works out, it is very difficult to shorten a 
facing.
>    
>   Paul
> 
> pjhmusic2004 <peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:
>           I thought shortening the lay from 21mm to 18mm would be 
straightforward
> (0.0015") but i seam to have messed things up.
> Could someone please give me a step by step guide to the proper way 
in 
> which the lay can be shortened, from 21mm to 18mm (0.0015")
> Thankyou 
> Peter
> 
> 
> 
>                            
> 
> 
> Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
> 		http://www.saxgourmet.com
> Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
>            http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
> 
> Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
> http://www.saxrax.com 
> For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
>        
> ---------------------------------
> Looking for last minute shopping deals?  Find them fast with Yahoo! 
Search.
>

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004"
<peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:
>
> I thought shortening the lay from 21mm to 18mm would be straightforward
> (0.0015") but i seam to have messed things up.
> Could someone please give me a step by step guide to the proper way in 
> which the lay can be shortened, from 21mm to 18mm (0.0015")
> Thankyou 
> Peter
>As Paul said it is difficult and I have done this as part of the
learning process using Graftonite pieces. These are very difficult to
work on, due to the hardness of the material, but reduce the chance of
overshooting your target I suppose.
I applied more pressure to the area of the table just behind the
window, but the table then has to be flattened & the facing and tip
have to be reworked. I did this and am using these mouthpieces today
in preference to bought ones. If I can do it, you can. 
I don't know if others will agree, but IMO it is better to start on
larger pieces before attempting to do clarinet or soprano, which have
finer tolerances.
As you have already spoiled the piece, why not continue with the
process and learn from the experience. With a determined and
methodical approach you will succeed. Good luck    Eddie

Hi Eddie,
  If you want to shorten up a piece and keep the same curve and tip opening.First you measure the facing and get as many numbers as you can,because it will all shrink down as you shorten up the facing.Than you must put the piece on the sand paper and shorten the facing careful to keep the rails even as you go .As you go upward on the paper you may find you are getting crooked.Than you must stop and figure out how to push the piece to get it even .If you refer to my vidio on facing you will see what I mean. www.youtube.com/mikolekaar Once you move the facing to the shorter length an the back is even you can than put the facing back to the original numbers.When you have that together you will have a tip rail that is too thick, so you must thin it out from the inside.
  Good luck.   Mikole Kaar
Edward McLean <keith29236@...> wrote:
          --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004"
<peterhepplewhite@...> wrote:
>
> I thought shortening the lay from 21mm to 18mm would be straightforward
> (0.0015") but i seam to have messed things up.
> Could someone please give me a step by step guide to the proper way in 
> which the lay can be shortened, from 21mm to 18mm (0.0015")
> Thankyou 
> Peter
>As Paul said it is difficult and I have done this as part of the
learning process using Graftonite pieces. These are very difficult to
work on, due to the hardness of the material, but reduce the chance of
overshooting your target I suppose.
I applied more pressure to the area of the table just behind the
window, but the table then has to be flattened & the facing and tip
have to be reworked. I did this and am using these mouthpieces today
in preference to bought ones. If I can do it, you can. 
I don't know if others will agree, but IMO it is better to start on
larger pieces before attempting to do clarinet or soprano, which have
finer tolerances.
As you have already spoiled the piece, why not continue with the
process and learn from the experience. With a determined and
methodical approach you will succeed. Good luck Eddie



                           


Mikole E. Kaar 
http://www.myspace.com/mikolekaarmusic 
  http://www.youtube.com/mikolekaar
Jazz Woodwinds 
Saxes, Clarinets, Bassoon, Flute 
(760) 568-1038
  

       
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

Removing material from the table seems to be the logical, and in 
fact, is the only thing that can be done.

When you do that, it cuts into the arc of the facing curve, leaving a 
sharp kink.  So, naturally, you would want fix that.  To do that, you 
have to sand that area and are then right back where you started.  
Only now you have a short radius for the portion of the curve at the 
break, and a longer radius out toward the tip.  There is no way to 
reestablish a consistant radial curve all the way from break to tip 
without removing a lot of material at the tip.

I suggest drawing a line representing the table, and a curve, 
representing the facing, on graph paper, perhaps tracing around a 
round object when you draw the curve.  Make a number of copies, you 
will draw on all of them.  

Now, trace various solutions on the graph paper, using the same bean 
can or other round object for the facing curve, and try to get the 
same tip opening, or even just something close, and a shorter facing.

So, what is the solution?

I don't know.  As I said, the geometry just does not work out nicely 
with a constant radius.  All of the solutions are unsatisfactory.

Paul 

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Mikole Kaar <mikolekaar@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Eddie,
>   If you want to shorten up a piece and keep the same curve and tip
opening.First you measure the facing and get as many numbers as you
can,because it will all shrink down as you shorten up the facing.Than
you must put the piece on the sand paper and shorten the facing
careful to keep the rails even as you go .As you go upward on the
paper you may find you are getting crooked.Than you must stop and
figure out how to push the piece to get it even .If you refer to my
vidio on facing you will see what I mean. www.youtube.com/mikolekaar
Once you move the facing to the shorter length an the back is even you
can than put the facing back to the original numbers.When you have
that together you will have a tip rail that is too thick, so you must
thin it out from the inside.
>   Good luck.   Mikole Kaar

Hi Mikole, I'm sure Peter will find your descriptive post helpful.
I over simplified my instruction on purpose, so as not to frighten him
off having a further go. He has already found it harder than he first
thought.
 Knowledge comes through doing and the numbers bit, will hopefully
become clearer with that knowledge. Enjoyed your video by the way.
Eddie

> Edward McLean <keith29236@...> wrote:
>           --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "pjhmusic2004"
> <peterhepplewhite@> wrote:
> >
> > I thought shortening the lay from 21mm to 18mm would be
straightforward
> > (0.0015") but i seam to have messed things up.
> > Could someone please give me a step by step guide to the proper
way in 
> > which the lay can be shortened, from 21mm to 18mm (0.0015")
> > Thankyou 
> > Peter
> >As Paul said it is difficult and I have done this as part of the
> learning process using Graftonite pieces. These are very difficult to
> work on, due to the hardness of the material, but reduce the chance of
> overshooting your target I suppose.
> I applied more pressure to the area of the table just behind the
> window, but the table then has to be flattened & the facing and tip
> have to be reworked. I did this and am using these mouthpieces today
> in preference to bought ones. If I can do it, you can. 
> I don't know if others will agree, but IMO it is better to start on
> larger pieces before attempting to do clarinet or soprano, which have
> finer tolerances.
> As you have already spoiled the piece, why not continue with the
> process and learn from the experience. With a determined and
> methodical approach you will succeed. Good luck Eddie
> 
> 
> 
>                            
> 
> 
> Mikole E. Kaar 
> http://www.myspace.com/mikolekaarmusic 
>   http://www.youtube.com/mikolekaar
> Jazz Woodwinds 
> Saxes, Clarinets, Bassoon, Flute 
> (760) 568-1038
>   
> 
>        
> ---------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. 
Try it now.
>