Hi,
I have not posted much here, but I have been doing mouthpiece work for 
a few years and I have a question about making the table flat- HOW?
I know all about the glass and the fine sand paper and all that, but as 
we know, this can cause (if not done carefully) a convex table.
Is there any mathod better than the glass/sandpaper?  Is there any tool 
(other than the large ones used in factories) that can easily and 
consistantly make the table flat?
I can't imagine that glass and sandpaper is as good as it can get.
Thanks all,
Sky

--- skygardener1 <skygardener1@...> wrote:
... I can't imagine that glass and sandpaper is as good as it can get.

I think this is the state of the art for the flattest tables at a
reasonable cost.  I have never seen a machine made table that is flatter
than a hand flattened table.  Even the lightest sandpaper strokes on a
machined table will find a bunch of (small) high spots on the table.  




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Dear Keith,
This will be a very interesting discussion. I personnaly believe 
that there will be nothing as flat as a properly machined surface. 
What ever the experience in the good old handwork the refacer has, 
there are to many factors that are not stable or always the same 
with the "hand" methode. Nevertheless, I know from my own experience 
that very good results can be achieved by hand. Still, nothing will 
beat machining, in my opinion
Fred v.d.Schaar


-- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury 
<kwbradbury@...> wrote:
>
> --- skygardener1 <skygardener1@...> wrote:
> ... I can't imagine that glass and sandpaper is as good as it can 
get.
> 
> I think this is the state of the art for the flattest tables at a
> reasonable cost.  I have never seen a machine made table that is 
flatter
> than a hand flattened table.  Even the lightest sandpaper strokes 
on a
> machined table will find a bunch of (small) high spots on the 
table.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       
_____________________________________________________________________
_______________
> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>

I'm sure there is space age technology that can do better than what I have
seen.  But not a a reasonable cost.  

I also think that most people can not make a table flatter than a machine
could.  But a good refacer can.

--- "fred.kort" <fredkort@...> wrote:

> Dear Keith,
> This will be a very interesting discussion. I personnaly believe 
> that there will be nothing as flat as a properly machined surface. 
> What ever the experience in the good old handwork the refacer has, 
> there are to many factors that are not stable or always the same 
> with the "hand" methode. Nevertheless, I know from my own experience 
> that very good results can be achieved by hand. Still, nothing will 
> beat machining, in my opinion
> Fred v.d.Schaar
> 
>


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>
wrote:
>
> I'm sure there is space age technology that can do better than what
I have seen.  But not a a reasonable cost.  

Yes, I suppose that cost is the problem in that equation.  If it is
worth anything to anyone, I have sometimes used a really wide bastard
file on the table.  It has pros and cons- pro is that it is flat; con
is that it is not even close to being a fine grain.
I was thinking about grinding wheels and the more I think of it, the
closer I get to a big expensive machine.

It all depends on what level we are talking about. I mean 
proffessionally or hobby? For the pro's the cost is a factor but can 
be done because in the end the customer pays. For those hobbyists(is 
this correct?)cost certainlly is a huge factor. But on the other hand 
it all depends on what you want. Here in the Netherlands are the 
tools, I think, cheaper then in the US. For a lathe (which can be used 
for the table to make it flat) you pay seondhand from around $700,00. 
Secondly, amongst other things, I'm a trained machine operator and yes 
from the space age years (like the Sputnik, the dog Layla and the 
first space flight, so not so young anymore) but I've seen and made 
remarkable precise things on a lathe or other machines.
Fred v.d.Schaar

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "skygardener1" 
<skygardener1@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I'm sure there is space age technology that can do better than what
> I have seen.  But not a a reasonable cost.  
> 
> Yes, I suppose that cost is the problem in that equation.  If it is
> worth anything to anyone, I have sometimes used a really wide bastard
> file on the table.  It has pros and cons- pro is that it is flat; con
> is that it is not even close to being a fine grain.
> I was thinking about grinding wheels and the more I think of it, the
> closer I get to a big expensive machine.
>

It boils down to having and/or developing hand/eye coordination, a 
sensitivity to manipulating materials.  I had no prior experience with 
mouthpieces, but MUCH experience with guitar repair and woodworking 
within that context.  It took me a couple tries to get a table flat but 
I could quickly see the ins and outs and what it would, and eventually 
did, take to do the job.  Never a problem after that.  In my experience 
people either have this kind of aptitude and set of skills or they 
don't.  And anyone who isn't able to get a table flat might as well 
forget about putting a good curve on a mouthpiece, as that takes a LOT 
more handwork skill.

Don't underestimate a person's ability to make high-precision surfaces
using freehand methods. It's not particularly difficult for even a
novice to grind a telescope mirror (parabolic) or diagonal mirror
(flat) to a tolerance well under 1/4 the wavelength of visible light.
Thats a tolerance of about 200 millimicrons or about 0.01 thousandths
of an inch. Experienced grinders can do even better than that. The
"trick" is using the correct motions and materials, and having lots of
patience. There are many telescope-grinding books describing how to
produce specific surfaces (e.g. flat). - Brent -



n MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "skygardener1" <skygardener1@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I have not posted much here, but I have been doing mouthpiece work for 
> a few years and I have a question about making the table flat- HOW?
> I know all about the glass and the fine sand paper and all that, but as 
> we know, this can cause (if not done carefully) a convex table.
> Is there any mathod better than the glass/sandpaper?  Is there any tool 
> (other than the large ones used in factories) that can easily and 
> consistantly make the table flat?
> I can't imagine that glass and sandpaper is as good as it can get.
> Thanks all,
> Sky
>

I think that indeed a machine can create a flatter table than can be done by hand, but at a certain point it stops to matter, and that point is, I believe, far exceeded by the capabilities of a good refacer.

Toby

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: fred.kort 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 11:15 PM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Making the table flat


  It all depends on what level we are talking about. I mean 
  proffessionally or hobby? For the pro's the cost is a factor but can 
  be done because in the end the customer pays. For those hobbyists(is 
  this correct?)cost certainlly is a huge factor. But on the other hand 
  it all depends on what you want. Here in the Netherlands are the 
  tools, I think, cheaper then in the US. For a lathe (which can be used 
  for the table to make it flat) you pay seondhand from around $700,00. 
  Secondly, amongst other things, I'm a trained machine operator and yes 
  from the space age years (like the Sputnik, the dog Layla and the 
  first space flight, so not so young anymore) but I've seen and made 
  remarkable precise things on a lathe or other machines.
  Fred v.d.Schaar

  --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "skygardener1" 
  <skygardener1@...> wrote:
  >
  > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@>
  > wrote:
  > >
  > > I'm sure there is space age technology that can do better than what
  > I have seen. But not a a reasonable cost. 
  > 
  > Yes, I suppose that cost is the problem in that equation. If it is
  > worth anything to anyone, I have sometimes used a really wide bastard
  > file on the table. It has pros and cons- pro is that it is flat; con
  > is that it is not even close to being a fine grain.
  > I was thinking about grinding wheels and the more I think of it, the
  > closer I get to a big expensive machine.
  >



   

Seems to me, the question begs to be asked...if a
machine CAN do a better job...why doesn't it, since
most production mouthpieces ARE made by machines?


--- Toby <kymarto123@...> wrote:

> I think that indeed a machine can create a flatter
> table than can be done by hand, but at a certain
> point it stops to matter, and that point is, I
> believe, far exceeded by the capabilities of a good
> refacer.
> 
> Toby
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: fred.kort 
>   To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 11:15 PM
>   Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Making the table
> flat
> 
> 
>   It all depends on what level we are talking about.
> I mean 
>   proffessionally or hobby? For the pro's the cost
> is a factor but can 
>   be done because in the end the customer pays. For
> those hobbyists(is 
>   this correct?)cost certainlly is a huge factor.
> But on the other hand 
>   it all depends on what you want. Here in the
> Netherlands are the 
>   tools, I think, cheaper then in the US. For a
> lathe (which can be used 
>   for the table to make it flat) you pay seondhand
> from around $700,00. 
>   Secondly, amongst other things, I'm a trained
> machine operator and yes 
>   from the space age years (like the Sputnik, the
> dog Layla and the 
>   first space flight, so not so young anymore) but
> I've seen and made 
>   remarkable precise things on a lathe or other
> machines.
>   Fred v.d.Schaar
> 
>   --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com,
> "skygardener1" 
>   <skygardener1@...> wrote:
>   >
>   > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith
> Bradbury <kwbradbury@>
>   > wrote:
>   > >
>   > > I'm sure there is space age technology that
> can do better than what
>   > I have seen. But not a a reasonable cost. 
>   > 
>   > Yes, I suppose that cost is the problem in that
> equation. If it is
>   > worth anything to anyone, I have sometimes used
> a really wide bastard
>   > file on the table. It has pros and cons- pro is
> that it is flat; con
>   > is that it is not even close to being a fine
> grain.
>   > I was thinking about grinding wheels and the
> more I think of it, the
>   > closer I get to a big expensive machine.
>   >
> 
> 
> 
>    



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Some mouthpieces are totally machine made and have very good tolerances. I
won't "talk out of school" and name one maker I know of pricey pieces, but
I've been to their shop and seen and played stuff untouched by human hands
that was damn near perfect. The were using some very sophisticated
equipment, much better than you usually see in mouthpiece manufacturing. It
can be done....the cost of admission is pretty high

  _____  

From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Tom Tapscott
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 12:37 PM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [!! SPAM] Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Making the table flat



Seems to me, the question begs to be asked...if a
machine CAN do a better job...why doesn't it, since
most production mouthpieces ARE made by machines?

--- Toby <kymarto123@ybb. <mailto:kymarto123%40ybb.ne.jp> ne.jp> wrote:

> I think that indeed a machine can create a flatter
> table than can be done by hand, but at a certain
> point it stops to matter, and that point is, I
> believe, far exceeded by the capabilities of a good
> refacer.
> 
> Toby
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: fred.kort 
> To: MouthpieceWork@ <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 11:15 PM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Making the table
> flat
> 
> 
> It all depends on what level we are talking about.
> I mean 
> proffessionally or hobby? For the pro's the cost
> is a factor but can 
> be done because in the end the customer pays. For
> those hobbyists(is 
> this correct?)cost certainlly is a huge factor.
> But on the other hand 
> it all depends on what you want. Here in the
> Netherlands are the 
> tools, I think, cheaper then in the US. For a
> lathe (which can be used 
> for the table to make it flat) you pay seondhand
> from around $700,00. 
> Secondly, amongst other things, I'm a trained
> machine operator and yes 
> from the space age years (like the Sputnik, the
> dog Layla and the 
> first space flight, so not so young anymore) but
> I've seen and made 
> remarkable precise things on a lathe or other
> machines.
> Fred v.d.Schaar
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@ <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com,
> "skygardener1" 
> <skygardener1@...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@ <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, Keith
> Bradbury <kwbradbury@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm sure there is space age technology that
> can do better than what
> > I have seen. But not a a reasonable cost. 
> > 
> > Yes, I suppose that cost is the problem in that
> equation. If it is
> > worth anything to anyone, I have sometimes used
> a really wide bastard
> > file on the table. It has pros and cons- pro is
> that it is flat; con
> > is that it is not even close to being a fine
> grain.
> > I was thinking about grinding wheels and the
> more I think of it, the
> > closer I get to a big expensive machine.
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 

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