I started to measure my mouthpieces and it occured to me that I 
hadn't seen anything on how to measure the volume.  I found articles 
by Ralph Morgan and others on the effect of volume in general, but 
nothing on really comparing one model to the next.  More importantly, 
although information on the effects of volume is talked about, 
nowhere could I find anything on how much volume change is noticable 
or too much. 

Here's how I measured volume (based on "cc"ing motor heads when hot 
rodding engines).  With the mp window facing down, I stuck a piece of 
cellophane tape on the table, leaving the loose end hanging down.  I 
then lightly rubbed the tape and mouthpiece over the corner of the 
workbench to seal the window.  It's easy to look through the tape and 
make sure that it's sealed on all rails.  

I used 2" wide packing tape, as I was measuring contrabass clarinet 
mouthpieces.  I left extra tape at the tip so that I could seal 
things up good.  It is also possible to pull on the tape when first 
sticking to the rails and make sure that the tape is completely flat 
across the window.

Then, I used a 10ml pipette to fill the mouthpiece.  I added a tiny 
bit of soap to break the surface tension and reduce possible air 
pockets in the mp, but even still, it gets a little iffy to determine 
when the mouthpiece is full.  This is especially true for the 
contrabass, as the bore is 30mm (1.18") and the water tends to form a 
lens because of the surface tension.  

The volume on my three contrabass mouthpieces varied from 43.9 to 
48.6 cc. (one milliliter equals one cubic centimeter).  For 
comparison, the volume of a tenor sax mouthpiece was 16.7cc and a 
soprano sax was 8.1cc.  One tenth of a cubic centimeter is about two 
drops, but as I said, the error is in determining when it's full.  I 
simply ran the water all the way up and, even though it bulged out a 
little above the bore opening, since the bore openings are 
essentially all the same for each instrument, I used this "look" as 
my constant.

What does this information do for me?  I don't know yet.  I'm tempted 
to start working on the old Leblanc contrabass mouthpiece, as I'm 
sure it's been refaced already, and increase the volume towards my 
favorite mp.

The other interesting find was that my new C Melody sax mouthpiece is 
almost identical to an old Conn Precision alto mouthpiece.  I don't 
think the Conn is old enough to be a C Melody mp, but it raises the 
issue of at what point does a bad alto mp become a good C Melody mp?  
One of my soprano mp is so much smaller than the other that I'm 
wondering if it could be a sopranino.  I have mostly mutt 
mouthpieces, but now I'm wondering if they're even identified 
correctly.  We shall cc.

Mark Fleming

Nice post Mark.

We have discussed this here before a little bit.  I have taken a number of
measurements in a similar way.  I use 2" wide packing tape over the window,
fill the MP with water and dump it into a graduated cylinder with a small
funnel in it.  I do my method 3-4 times to make sure I have a consistent
reading +/- .1 ml or so.  You would think the droplets in the funnel and my
crude pour into the cylinder would yield a wide range of results.  But they
are fairly consistent for me.  But, I think using a pipet is a better way
to go. 

I do not find the data very useful.  If a client is having an unusual
intonation problem I can do a comparison to the "norms".  In sax
mouthpieces you need to change the volume by several CCs to make a
significant difference.

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I agree, this is a nice post, and an interesting question.

One thing occurs to me:  doesn't the length of the shank influence the
measurement?  I've seen tenor mouthpieces that vary by as much as 6 mm
or so - it seems that would account for a 2 - 3 ml difference.  

Besides, some of the volume you are measuring ends up being removed,
or rather replaced, by the neck of the instrument when it's on the
instrument. 

Maybe one could insert a plug to the point at which the mouthpiece is
inserted.  Have a small hole thru the plug and add water until it
overflows the hole.

This is probably not as big a deal for clarinet mouthpieces since they
all have a very similar shank length, but I've noticed significant
variations in saxophone mouthpiece length.

-Steve Keller

It would seem, to be a valid measurement, I would have to agree with Mr. Keller here.  The mouthpiece would have to be played, positioned where it plays in tune at AD0 hz, and the chamber and bore filled only up to where the end of the neck would be at that point.
   
  Any volume measured beyond that point, where the end  of the neck is in the bore, should not count toward chamber volume.
   
  Paul Coats

Steve Keller <esteban_cadenza@...> wrote:
          I agree, this is a nice post, and an interesting question.

One thing occurs to me: doesn't the length of the shank influence the
measurement? I've seen tenor mouthpieces that vary by as much as 6 mm
or so - it seems that would account for a 2 - 3 ml difference. 

Besides, some of the volume you are measuring ends up being removed,
or rather replaced, by the neck of the instrument when it's on the
instrument. 

Maybe one could insert a plug to the point at which the mouthpiece is
inserted. Have a small hole thru the plug and add water until it
overflows the hole.

This is probably not as big a deal for clarinet mouthpieces since they
all have a very similar shank length, but I've noticed significant
variations in saxophone mouthpiece length.

-Steve Keller



                         


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I just calculate and subtract the volume of the cork position to get the
playing volume of the mouthpiece.  But I record the total volume when I
measure them.  Which I do not do often.


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If one NEEDS to know the playing volume, then the neck cork volume
would need to be subtracted.  However, I think that most measurements
are relevant only if volume needs to be added/subtracted to make the
mouthpiece play better.  Or, if modifications are made, like adding a
baffle, then some wall might need to be removed to maintain the volume
if it is correct for playing from the get go.  Or, if baffle needs to
be removed, then the walls might need to be built up.

Now this is my neophyte opinion only.  I would appreciate any
corrections/affirmations to see how my knowledge is progressing.

Thank you,

David

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>
wrote:
>
> I just calculate and subtract the volume of the cork position to get the
> playing volume of the mouthpiece.  But I record the total volume when I
> measure them.  Which I do not do often.
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

> I do not find the data very useful.  

I agree with this... It is cool conjecture and could prove useful when 
identifying say, Cmelody VS. tenor mouthpieces...

Having read through the responses, it looks like volume measurements 
are of less utility than I thought.  Identifying whether a mp is a 
tenor or a Cmelody is even iffy.  The length of the shank makes a 
difference, but so does the diameter of the shank bore.

For instance, I have a no-name soprano mp that I bought from 
squealydan on Ebay, so I assume that it actually is a soprano mp and 
not a sopranino.  It is 63.5mm long, has a bore diameter of 13mm, and 
a volume of 7.3cc.  My Rico B7 soprano mp is 75mm long, has a bore 
diameter of 14mm, and a volume of 8.15cc.  But, since the larger Rico 
also has a larger shaft bore, it slides on the horn 4-5mm more.  
Obviously, this takes care of some of the volume and length 
difference.  What's weird is that I can get both mp to tune (it's an 
old Borgani soprano so "tune" is relative), although the overall 
length of the horn and mp is still several millimeters longer with 
the Rico mp.

I could put tape over the neck, put both  mp on to each one's normal 
position, and measure the volume by filling it with water, but I 
don't know what that would prove.  Probably just more 
incomprehensible info.  As for using volume and measurements to 
distinguish a tenor mp from an alto from a Cmelody, even that seems a 
little iffy.   I have an old Conn Precision alto mp that is 89mm 
long, a bore diameter of 16mm, and a volume of 13.4cc.  My new 
Aquilasax Cmelody mp is 91mm long, a bore diameter of 16mm, and a 
volume of 14cc.  That's pretty close.  My guess is that the universe 
of alto mps and the universe of Cmelody mps overlap, Cmel and tenor 
overlap, etc.

To the extent that measurements can "identify" a mp, it would 
probably be just the window length and tip width.  My  two very 
different soprano mps share the same window length (30.5mm).  Alto is 
40mm, Cmel is 44mm, tenor is 46mm.  But window length and tip width 
only means that the designer made the mp to fit a certain reed.  
Whether the rest of the design works for which horn/player/style is a 
different issue.

So volume probably can't accurately predict how a mp will play, which 
horn it works with, etc.  It still will be interesting to see if or 
how changes to the mp effect volume when working on a single mp.  It 
might give a point of reference ("Oh, so that's how I ruined it"). 
Unfortunately, I'm busy with bringing an ancient True Tone alto back 
from the dead.  It looks like this zombie spent 81 years as a high 
school horn.

Mark Fleming
 

The Rico Graftonite Soprano Sax is a poor mouthpiece to use for comparison.  It's bore and chamber are too large for most sopranos.  This requires the mouthpiece to be pushed on very far with the result of the high notes playing very sharp.
   
  Paul

flemingml2000 <marklfleming@...> wrote:
          Having read through the responses, it looks like volume measurements 
are of less utility than I thought. Identifying whether a mp is a 
tenor or a Cmelody is even iffy. The length of the shank makes a 
difference, but so does the diameter of the shank bore.

For instance, I have a no-name soprano mp that I bought from 
squealydan on Ebay, so I assume that it actually is a soprano mp and 
not a sopranino. It is 63.5mm long, has a bore diameter of 13mm, and 
a volume of 7.3cc. My Rico B7 soprano mp is 75mm long, has a bore 
diameter of 14mm, and a volume of 8.15cc. But, since the larger Rico 
also has a larger shaft bore, it slides on the horn 4-5mm more. 
Obviously, this takes care of some of the volume and length 
difference. What's weird is that I can get both mp to tune (it's an 
old Borgani soprano so "tune" is relative), although the overall 
length of the horn and mp is still several millimeters longer with 
the Rico mp.

I could put tape over the neck, put both mp on to each one's normal 
position, and measure the volume by filling it with water, but I 
don't know what that would prove. Probably just more 
incomprehensible info. As for using volume and measurements to 
distinguish a tenor mp from an alto from a Cmelody, even that seems a 
little iffy. I have an old Conn Precision alto mp that is 89mm 
long, a bore diameter of 16mm, and a volume of 13.4cc. My new 
Aquilasax Cmelody mp is 91mm long, a bore diameter of 16mm, and a 
volume of 14cc. That's pretty close. My guess is that the universe 
of alto mps and the universe of Cmelody mps overlap, Cmel and tenor 
overlap, etc.

To the extent that measurements can "identify" a mp, it would 
probably be just the window length and tip width. My two very 
different soprano mps share the same window length (30.5mm). Alto is 
40mm, Cmel is 44mm, tenor is 46mm. But window length and tip width 
only means that the designer made the mp to fit a certain reed. 
Whether the rest of the design works for which horn/player/style is a 
different issue.

So volume probably can't accurately predict how a mp will play, which 
horn it works with, etc. It still will be interesting to see if or 
how changes to the mp effect volume when working on a single mp. It 
might give a point of reference ("Oh, so that's how I ruined it"). 
Unfortunately, I'm busy with bringing an ancient True Tone alto back 
from the dead. It looks like this zombie spent 81 years as a high 
school horn.

Mark Fleming




                         


Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
		http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
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