OK, I'm not an engineer but neither am I a moron.  Still, I've spent a
lot of time perusing the facing curve tables and spreadsheets archived
in the "Files" section and am stumped.

As to the Alto Meyer and Tenor Link tables--that show gauge readings
for #5-10 facings--WHAT do those readings represent?  I see a note
that they "are not from measurements or manufacturing specs."  Are
they calculations based on some set of historical facing lengths, tip
openings, and/or radial arcs?  Are they generated from a spreadsheet?

And as to the spreadsheet relating to post #1453, I'm trying to
reconcile the "Usage" notes on the spreadsheet with the instructions
in the post but am not having much luck.  Is there a precise order in
which variables in blue should be entered?  What if you don't have the
"Brand" numbers to enter into the "Spec" column.  And assuming you
adjust "M" so that "L" at the tip is Zero, as soon as you adjust "R"
to minimize the "Error Sum" then "L" value at the Tip changes.  Is
that OK?

This html message parsed with html2text ---------------------------The numbers in black indicate how far each feeler gauge (thicknesses listed in
blue on the left) goes down a glass gauge, calibrated in 1/2-millimeters (as
most are). So, on the tenor spreadsheet, if you look at the values for a "6"
facing, the .016 gauge, for example, will slide down the gauge to 30.1. (This
would be 15.05 mm).  
  
These numbers are generated by the spreadsheet (not taken from measurements of
factory-fresh mouthpieces, which can vary wildly). By changing the radius (R,
on top) and 'absolute-length-at-zero' (M) numbers, you _will_ change the
facing values below. They will match some other radial curve (that's what the
spreadsheet does). But you want a curve with the facing length and tip opening
you choose, and that compensates for the width of the tip rail (usually set at
1.5 here), and these are those curves for the specified facings.  
  
If your feeler gauges are different thicknesses, you can insert those and the
spreadsheet will tell you the correct values for your feeler set.  
  
Hope this helps.  
  
Dan T  
  
  
honkytone wrote:

> OK, I'm not an engineer but neither am I a moron. Still, I've spent a  
>  lot of time perusing the facing curve tables and spreadsheets archived  
>  in the "Files" section and am stumped.  
>  
>  As to the Alto Meyer and Tenor Link tables--that show gauge readings  
>  for #5-10 facings--WHAT do those readings represent? I see a note  
>  that they "are not from measurements or manufacturing specs." Are  
>  they calculations based on some set of historical facing lengths, tip  
>  openings, and/or radial arcs? Are they generated from a spreadsheet?  
>  
>  And as to the spreadsheet relating to post #1453, I'm trying to  
>  reconcile the "Usage" notes on the spreadsheet with the instructions  
>  in the post but am not having much luck. Is there a precise order in  
>  which variables in blue should be entered? What if you don't have the  
>  "Brand" numbers to enter into the "Spec" column. And assuming you  
>  adjust "M" so that "L" at the tip is Zero, as soon as you adjust "R"  
>  to minimize the "Error Sum" then "L" value at the Tip changes. Is  
>  that OK?  
>  
>
>  
>  
>  
>  
>     * * *
>  
>      No virus found in
>     this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 /
> Virus
>     Database: 269.7.6/813 - Release Date: 5/20/2007 7:54 AM

Dan,

That does help, thanks.  While facing lengths are commonly expressed,
along with tip openings, upon what does one base their chosen radius
values?  Does that value represent the curvature of a perfect circle
with that radius in inches?  I'm missing something in there.

This html message parsed with html2text ---------------------------yes, radius in inches. Values are whatever you need to get the tip opening and
length you're shooting for. One of the possibly confusing aspects is that some
of the measurements are in inches (radius, tip) and some are in mm (or half-mm
- like facing length). The beauty of the spreadsheet is that it sorts all the
geometry out, as well as accounting for the different units. My clarinet
mouthpiece, for example, is labeled 108, for 1.08 mm, even though saxophone
mouthpieces (and most clarinet mpcs, too, I think) usually use thousandths of
an inch to express tip opening (like a Berg 110 = .110", although it rarely
actually measures that way, which is part of why we have refacing work!).  
  
DT  
  
honkytone wrote:

> Dan,  
>  
>  That does help, thanks. While facing lengths are commonly expressed,  
>  along with tip openings, upon what does one base their chosen radius  
>  values? Does that value represent the curvature of a perfect circle  
>  with that radius in inches? I'm missing something in there.  
>  
>
>  
>  
>  
>  
>     * * *
>  
>      No virus found in this
>     incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus
>     Database: 269.7.6/814 - Release Date: 5/21/2007 2:01 PM

If you specify a tip opening and a facing length, there is only one radius
that will give you them.  This assumes that the radial curve is tangent to
the flat table at some point a little longer than the facing length.  The
curve then swings up a little to pass through the XY point that is defined
by the facing length and the .0015" feeler.  Then it swings further until
it passes through the XY point defined by the tip rail width and the tip
opening.  You either have to manually guess at the Radius or use Excel's
built in solver tool to iteratively solve for the best R that minimizes the
"error".

--- honkytone <dwf@...> wrote:

> Dan,
> 
> That does help, thanks.  While facing lengths are commonly expressed,
> along with tip openings, upon what does one base their chosen radius
> values?  Does that value represent the curvature of a perfect circle
> with that radius in inches?  I'm missing something in there.
> 
> 




 
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Yes, it should be the radius of a perfect circle whose arc is tangent to the table.  (See?  I paid attention in geometry and calculus!)
   
  By varying the radius of the curve, and where the arc is tangent to the table (facing length) tip opening can be varied.
   
  We can't measure where the arc meets the table (facing length) because that would require a feeler of zero thickness... the best we can do is use a very thin .0015" feeler (or 0.04 mm), which is close.  That is the standard for designating facing length.
   
  Paul

honkytone <dwf@...> wrote:
          Dan,

That does help, thanks. While facing lengths are commonly expressed,
along with tip openings, upon what does one base their chosen radius
values? Does that value represent the curvature of a perfect circle
with that radius in inches? I'm missing something in there.



         


Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
		http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
       
---------------------------------
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I've heard that many facing radius' are flat at the tip, and about 3mm. into the facing.  I have also experimented with this what are you guys feedback on that?

       
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on 5/22/07 5:44 PM, arnold montgomery at ammouthpieces@... wrote:

> I've heard that many facing radius' are flat at the tip, and about 3mm. into
> the facing.  I have also experimented with this what are you guys feedback on
> that?


This last bit of facing adjustment at the very tip seems to be (in my
limited experience) a necessary final touch, and has made a huge difference
in how responsive mouthpieces I've been working on play. It feels very much
like a seat-of-the-pants adjustment, altho I can imagine that some kind of
jig for holding the mouthpiece at various fixed angles could be useful for
getting it done very accurately.


barry

-- 
http://users.norwoodlight.com/barrylevine
http://www.newjazzecho.com

OK, I'm looking at "Facing Curve.xls" as downloaded from the site and
unmodified.  I see six figures entered into the Spec column.  I
presume those came from Eric Brand and serve as some sort of base
standard upon which this spreadsheet operates.  But what happens if
you don't have those values to work with--do you ignore the Spec
column, and therefore the Diff column and Error Sum function
altogether?  And if you don't have the Brand figures to work with how
would you have any idea what to put in the Spec column?  I mean,
that's why you NEED this spreadsheet, right?  (I have the original
Selmer Band Instrument Repair manual, and I guess the chapter on
mouthpiece refacing is from Brand, but there's not much in there in
terms of measurements.  Are those available elsewhere?)

Then the instructions say at a minimum in the Spec column to enter the
.0015 and Tip values.  If that's all you've got in the Spec column,
mustn't you need to get rid of the other Brand Spec values and the
math functions in the Diff column for all but those two lines,
otherwise the Diff values and Error Sum function become meaningless? 
And do those really have any meaning if there's only two of them?

After adjusting M so that "L at Tip = 0" you're then supposed to
"Adjust R until the Error Sum of the Diff is minimized."  But as soon
as you do that "L at Tip" no longer = 0, right?  Is that OK?

Obviously I'm missing some info that the old timers around here have
under their belts, but I'd really like to make sense of it all.  My
hand skills at actually working on mouthpieces are superior--I'm
having great success with the finishing--and I understand all the
principles involved in applying the facing curve, I'm just not
following what to use for reference points.



--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>
wrote:
>
> If you specify a tip opening and a facing length, there is only one
radius
> that will give you them.  This assumes that the radial curve is
tangent to
> the flat table at some point a little longer than the facing length.
 The
> curve then swings up a little to pass through the XY point that is
defined
> by the facing length and the .0015" feeler.  Then it swings further
until
> it passes through the XY point defined by the tip rail width and the tip
> opening.  You either have to manually guess at the Radius or use Excel's
> built in solver tool to iteratively solve for the best R that
minimizes the
> "error".
> 
> --- honkytone <dwf@...> wrote:
> 
> > Dan,
> > 
> > That does help, thanks.  While facing lengths are commonly expressed,
> > along with tip openings, upon what does one base their chosen radius
> > values?  Does that value represent the curvature of a perfect circle
> > with that radius in inches?  I'm missing something in there.
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Need Mail bonding?
> Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
> http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid96546091
>

--- honkytone <dwf@...> wrote:

> OK, I'm looking at "Facing Curve.xls" as downloaded from the site and
> unmodified.  I see six figures entered into the Spec column.  I
> presume those came from Eric Brand and serve as some sort of base
> standard upon which this spreadsheet operates.  But what happens if
> you don't have those values to work with--do you ignore the Spec
> column, and therefore the Diff column and Error Sum function
> altogether?  And if you don't have the Brand figures to work with how
> would you have any idea what to put in the Spec column?  I mean,
> that's why you NEED this spreadsheet, right?  (I have the original
> Selmer Band Instrument Repair manual, and I guess the chapter on
> mouthpiece refacing is from Brand, but there's not much in there in
> terms of measurements.  Are those available elsewhere?)

There is some discussion in Message Post #1453.  I think you said you read
that message, but if not it does answer some of your questions.

You can use the "Spec" column to record your starting measurements of a
mouthpiece you would like to improve.  You can work off of some E.Brand
numbers directly.  But the spread sheet radial curve will give you even
better numbers for facing targets if you are looking for a smoother facing
curve.

You can get a feel for typical ranges of tip openings and facing lengths by
measuring every mouthpiece you can get your hands on.  There are also a few
sites that have this info, but mouthpieces vary a lot from listed specs.

There are some old message posts that will help, but I know it can be
cumbersome to search for them.  If you want some facing length and/or tip
opening suggestions, ask the group.  I'm sure your interest in this is not
unique.  Lurkers and active members have the same question but have not
asked them.

> 
> Then the instructions say at a minimum in the Spec column to enter the
> .0015 and Tip values.  If that's all you've got in the Spec column,
> mustn't you need to get rid of the other Brand Spec values and the
> math functions in the Diff column for all but those two lines,
> otherwise the Diff values and Error Sum function become meaningless? 
> And do those really have any meaning if there's only two of them?

Yes, you need to delete the other entries and formulas.  You will be left
with an error sum based on two values: the tip opening and the facing
length.  You need to determine the R and M value that creates a curve that
passes through (or real close) to the tip opening and the facing length
points.  You need a minimum of 2 XY data point to determine a radial facing
curve.  Its one of those "2 equations, 2 unknowns" things.  If you have
more points, you need to decide how to run a curve through the points.  The
spredsheet suggests minimizing the error sum as a way of fitting the curve.
 But you could als, say, run it through the low spots so you only need to
work on lowering the high spots.  But in practice, if you flatten the table
some, you will have enough material "raised" to work towards a best fit
average curve.

> 
> After adjusting M so that "L at Tip = 0" you're then supposed to
> "Adjust R until the Error Sum of the Diff is minimized."  But as soon
> as you do that "L at Tip" no longer = 0, right?  Is that OK?

It is best if you go back and adjust M some more, then R again.  Back and
forth a few times until you zero in on values that give you the smallest
error sum.

> 
> Obviously I'm missing some info that the old timers around here have
> under their belts, but I'd really like to make sense of it all.  My
> hand skills at actually working on mouthpieces are superior--I'm
> having great success with the finishing--and I understand all the
> principles involved in applying the facing curve, I'm just not
> following what to use for reference points.

Most "old timers" work off tables of numbers scratched in their personal
notebooks or from memory.  I think the spreadsheet methods take the art to
the next level.  It gives you a visual analysis of where you are at and
where you want to be.  Speadsheets can also be used show how much reading
on the left and right rails are off from each other.  I magnify this
left/right error X10 and plot it as I work.  This highlights areas I need
to "attack".  


       
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Thanks, Keith, that is hugely helpful.  Just one followup, and it has
to do with where zero on the glass gauge is set:  at the outer end of
the tip or at the inner edge of the tip rail.  I understand how to
account for that on the spreadsheet, but if someone passes along a
list of values, say, .0015H, .005C, .0108, etc., do you PRESUME
zero was set at the end of the tip or at the inside of the rail tip? 
Is there a convention or consensus on that? Thanks again.

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>
wrote:
>
> 
> --- honkytone <dwf@...> wrote:
> 
> > OK, I'm looking at "Facing Curve.xls" as downloaded from the site and
> > unmodified.  I see six figures entered into the Spec column.  I
> > presume those came from Eric Brand and serve as some sort of base
> > standard upon which this spreadsheet operates.  But what happens if
> > you don't have those values to work with--do you ignore the Spec
> > column, and therefore the Diff column and Error Sum function
> > altogether?  And if you don't have the Brand figures to work with how
> > would you have any idea what to put in the Spec column?  I mean,
> > that's why you NEED this spreadsheet, right?  (I have the original
> > Selmer Band Instrument Repair manual, and I guess the chapter on
> > mouthpiece refacing is from Brand, but there's not much in there in
> > terms of measurements.  Are those available elsewhere?)
> 
> There is some discussion in Message Post #1453.  I think you said
you read
> that message, but if not it does answer some of your questions.
> 
> You can use the "Spec" column to record your starting measurements of a
> mouthpiece you would like to improve.  You can work off of some E.Brand
> numbers directly.  But the spread sheet radial curve will give you even
> better numbers for facing targets if you are looking for a smoother
facing
> curve.
> 
> You can get a feel for typical ranges of tip openings and facing
lengths by
> measuring every mouthpiece you can get your hands on.  There are
also a few
> sites that have this info, but mouthpieces vary a lot from listed specs.
> 
> There are some old message posts that will help, but I know it can be
> cumbersome to search for them.  If you want some facing length
and/or tip
> opening suggestions, ask the group.  I'm sure your interest in this
is not
> unique.  Lurkers and active members have the same question but have not
> asked them.
> 
> > 
> > Then the instructions say at a minimum in the Spec column to enter the
> > .0015 and Tip values.  If that's all you've got in the Spec column,
> > mustn't you need to get rid of the other Brand Spec values and the
> > math functions in the Diff column for all but those two lines,
> > otherwise the Diff values and Error Sum function become meaningless? 
> > And do those really have any meaning if there's only two of them?
> 
> Yes, you need to delete the other entries and formulas.  You will be
left
> with an error sum based on two values: the tip opening and the facing
> length.  You need to determine the R and M value that creates a
curve that
> passes through (or real close) to the tip opening and the facing length
> points.  You need a minimum of 2 XY data point to determine a radial
facing
> curve.  Its one of those "2 equations, 2 unknowns" things.  If you have
> more points, you need to decide how to run a curve through the
points.  The
> spredsheet suggests minimizing the error sum as a way of fitting the
curve.
>  But you could als, say, run it through the low spots so you only
need to
> work on lowering the high spots.  But in practice, if you flatten
the table
> some, you will have enough material "raised" to work towards a best fit
> average curve.
> 
> > 
> > After adjusting M so that "L at Tip = 0" you're then supposed to
> > "Adjust R until the Error Sum of the Diff is minimized."  But as soon
> > as you do that "L at Tip" no longer = 0, right?  Is that OK?
> 
> It is best if you go back and adjust M some more, then R again. 
Back and
> forth a few times until you zero in on values that give you the smallest
> error sum.
> 
> > 
> > Obviously I'm missing some info that the old timers around here have
> > under their belts, but I'd really like to make sense of it all.  My
> > hand skills at actually working on mouthpieces are superior--I'm
> > having great success with the finishing--and I understand all the
> > principles involved in applying the facing curve, I'm just not
> > following what to use for reference points.
> 
> Most "old timers" work off tables of numbers scratched in their personal
> notebooks or from memory.  I think the spreadsheet methods take the
art to
> the next level.  It gives you a visual analysis of where you are at and
> where you want to be.  Speadsheets can also be used show how much
reading
> on the left and right rails are off from each other.  I magnify this
> left/right error X10 and plot it as I work.  This highlights areas I
need
> to "attack".  
> 
> 
>        
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Choose
the right car based on your needs.  Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car
Finder tool.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
>

I have never heard of anyone zeroing the glass gauge inside the tip rail. 
I think that would be a difficult way to work.  

The edge zero glass gauge is intended to be physically zeroed with the
mouthpiece tip on a table edge or other suitable "stop".  I suppose any
glass gauge could be zeroed by eye anywhere.  But the convention is the
very tip (outside the tip rail).

--- honkytone <dwf@...> wrote:

> Thanks, Keith, that is hugely helpful.  Just one followup, and it has
> to do with where zero on the glass gauge is set:  at the outer end of
> the tip or at the inner edge of the tip rail.  I understand how to
> account for that on the spreadsheet, but if someone passes along a
> list of values, say, .0015H, .005C, .0108, etc., do you PRESUME
> zero was set at the end of the tip or at the inside of the rail tip? 
> Is there a convention or consensus on that? Thanks again.
> 



       
____________________________________________________________________________________Luggage? GPS? Comic books? 
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This html message parsed with html2text ---------------------------I think he may be confusing the "zero" point we refer to when aligning the tip
with the end (zero reading) of the glass gauge with the common practice of
measuring the tip opening from the inside of the tip rail (which requires
accounting for the width of the tip rail). The first has to do with the
"horizontal" dimension (facing length), the second with the "vertical" (tip
opening).  
  
Dan T  
  
Keith Bradbury wrote:

> I have never heard of anyone zeroing the glass gauge inside the tip rail.  
>  I think that would be a difficult way to work.  
>  
>  The edge zero glass gauge is intended to be physically zeroed with the  
>  mouthpiece tip on a table edge or other suitable "stop". I suppose any  
>  glass gauge could be zeroed by eye anywhere. But the convention is the  
>  very tip (outside the tip rail).  
>  
>  \\--- honkytone <[dwf@...](mailto:dwf%40lorac.tv)> wrote:  
>  
>  > Thanks, Keith, that is hugely helpful. Just one followup, and it has  
>  > to do with where zero on the glass gauge is set: at the outer end of  
>  > the tip or at the inner edge of the tip rail. I understand how to  
>  > account for that on the spreadsheet, but if someone passes along a  
>  > list of values, say, .0015H, .005C, .0108, etc., do you PRESUME  
>  > zero was set at the end of the tip or at the inside of the rail tip?  
>  > Is there a convention or consensus on that? Thanks again.  
>  >  
>  
>  __________________________________________________________Luggage? GPS?
> Comic books?  
>  Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search  
>
> [http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs;=bz](http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz)  
>
>  
>  
>  
>  
>     * * *
>  
>      No
>     virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version:
>     7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.7/816 - Release Date: 5/23/2007 3:59 PM

Exactly right, Dan, that's what I was confusing.  I assumed that
because you measure the tip opening at the inside of the tip rail that
you'd measure the length of the facing from the same point.  That
actually makes sense to me on some intuitive level.  But it sounds
like the convention for measuring the facing length is, in fact, from
the outer tip of the mouthpiece.  And that makes sense, too, as I
guess the entire width of the tip rail comes into play in how the reed
vibrates against the mouthpiece.  Right?

Well, I'm using the zero setback glass gauge, and it's no more
difficult to set it to the inside of the tip rail than it would be to
the outside.  This sure is explaining why others have thought my
facings are longer than I intended!

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>
wrote:
>
> I have never heard of anyone zeroing the glass gauge inside the tip
rail. 
> I think that would be a difficult way to work.  
> 
> The edge zero glass gauge is intended to be physically zeroed with the
> mouthpiece tip on a table edge or other suitable "stop".  I suppose any
> glass gauge could be zeroed by eye anywhere.  But the convention is the
> very tip (outside the tip rail).
> 
> --- honkytone <dwf@...> wrote:
> 
> > Thanks, Keith, that is hugely helpful.  Just one followup, and it has
> > to do with where zero on the glass gauge is set:  at the outer end of
> > the tip or at the inner edge of the tip rail.  I understand how to
> > account for that on the spreadsheet, but if someone passes along a
> > list of values, say, .0015H, .005C, .0108, etc., do you PRESUME
> > zero was set at the end of the tip or at the inside of the rail tip? 
> > Is there a convention or consensus on that? Thanks again.
> > 
> 
> 
> 
>        
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Luggage?
GPS? Comic books? 
> Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
> http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
>

Another reason for my confusion:  in the spreadsheets one is
instructed to enter the tip opening in the F column and then "adjust M
until L at Tip = 0".  The tip opening, of course, is measured at the
inside of the tip rail.  I assumed, therefore, all the other facing
length values followed from THAT point back to the break.  In the
absence of reading anywhere else that "you measure the facing length
from the outer edge of the mouthpiece tip," measuring from the inside
of the tip rail struck me as pretty sensible.


--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>
wrote:
>
> I have never heard of anyone zeroing the glass gauge inside the tip
rail. 
> I think that would be a difficult way to work.  
> 
> The edge zero glass gauge is intended to be physically zeroed with the
> mouthpiece tip on a table edge or other suitable "stop".  I suppose any
> glass gauge could be zeroed by eye anywhere.  But the convention is the
> very tip (outside the tip rail).
> 
> --- honkytone <dwf@...> wrote:
> 
> > Thanks, Keith, that is hugely helpful.  Just one followup, and it has
> > to do with where zero on the glass gauge is set:  at the outer end of
> > the tip or at the inner edge of the tip rail.  I understand how to
> > account for that on the spreadsheet, but if someone passes along a
> > list of values, say, .0015H, .005C, .0108, etc., do you PRESUME
> > zero was set at the end of the tip or at the inside of the rail tip? 
> > Is there a convention or consensus on that? Thanks again.
> > 
> 
> 
> 
>        
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Luggage?
GPS? Comic books? 
> Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
> http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
>

The thing is, what is easiest to use?  
   
  I use the zero edge glass gauge.  The gauge is placed on the table, and holding the mouthpiece so that the table and gauge are horizontal, the mouthpiece and gauge are pressed lightly against the vertical edge of the workbench, quickly aligning them.
   
  Paul

honkytone <dwf@...> wrote:
          Thanks, Keith, that is hugely helpful. Just one followup, and it has
to do with where zero on the glass gauge is set: at the outer end of
the tip or at the inner edge of the tip rail. I understand how to
account for that on the spreadsheet, but if someone passes along a
list of values, say, .0015H, .005C, .0108, etc., do you PRESUME
zero was set at the end of the tip or at the inside of the rail tip? 
Is there a convention or consensus on that? Thanks again.

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>
wrote:
>
> 
> --- honkytone <dwf@...> wrote:
> 
> > OK, I'm looking at "Facing Curve.xls" as downloaded from the site and
> > unmodified. I see six figures entered into the Spec column. I
> > presume those came from Eric Brand and serve as some sort of base
> > standard upon which this spreadsheet operates. But what happens if
> > you don't have those values to work with--do you ignore the Spec
> > column, and therefore the Diff column and Error Sum function
> > altogether? And if you don't have the Brand figures to work with how
> > would you have any idea what to put in the Spec column? I mean,
> > that's why you NEED this spreadsheet, right? (I have the original
> > Selmer Band Instrument Repair manual, and I guess the chapter on
> > mouthpiece refacing is from Brand, but there's not much in there in
> > terms of measurements. Are those available elsewhere?)
> 
> There is some discussion in Message Post #1453. I think you said
you read
> that message, but if not it does answer some of your questions.
> 
> You can use the "Spec" column to record your starting measurements of a
> mouthpiece you would like to improve. You can work off of some E.Brand
> numbers directly. But the spread sheet radial curve will give you even
> better numbers for facing targets if you are looking for a smoother
facing
> curve.
> 
> You can get a feel for typical ranges of tip openings and facing
lengths by
> measuring every mouthpiece you can get your hands on. There are
also a few
> sites that have this info, but mouthpieces vary a lot from listed specs.
> 
> There are some old message posts that will help, but I know it can be
> cumbersome to search for them. If you want some facing length
and/or tip
> opening suggestions, ask the group. I'm sure your interest in this
is not
> unique. Lurkers and active members have the same question but have not
> asked them.
> 
> > 
> > Then the instructions say at a minimum in the Spec column to enter the
> > .0015 and Tip values. If that's all you've got in the Spec column,
> > mustn't you need to get rid of the other Brand Spec values and the
> > math functions in the Diff column for all but those two lines,
> > otherwise the Diff values and Error Sum function become meaningless? 
> > And do those really have any meaning if there's only two of them?
> 
> Yes, you need to delete the other entries and formulas. You will be
left
> with an error sum based on two values: the tip opening and the facing
> length. You need to determine the R and M value that creates a
curve that
> passes through (or real close) to the tip opening and the facing length
> points. You need a minimum of 2 XY data point to determine a radial
facing
> curve. Its one of those "2 equations, 2 unknowns" things. If you have
> more points, you need to decide how to run a curve through the
points. The
> spredsheet suggests minimizing the error sum as a way of fitting the
curve.
> But you could als, say, run it through the low spots so you only
need to
> work on lowering the high spots. But in practice, if you flatten
the table
> some, you will have enough material "raised" to work towards a best fit
> average curve.
> 
> > 
> > After adjusting M so that "L at Tip = 0" you're then supposed to
> > "Adjust R until the Error Sum of the Diff is minimized." But as soon
> > as you do that "L at Tip" no longer = 0, right? Is that OK?
> 
> It is best if you go back and adjust M some more, then R again. 
Back and
> forth a few times until you zero in on values that give you the smallest
> error sum.
> 
> > 
> > Obviously I'm missing some info that the old timers around here have
> > under their belts, but I'd really like to make sense of it all. My
> > hand skills at actually working on mouthpieces are superior--I'm
> > having great success with the finishing--and I understand all the
> > principles involved in applying the facing curve, I'm just not
> > following what to use for reference points.
> 
> Most "old timers" work off tables of numbers scratched in their personal
> notebooks or from memory. I think the spreadsheet methods take the
art to
> the next level. It gives you a visual analysis of where you are at and
> where you want to be. Speadsheets can also be used show how much
reading
> on the left and right rails are off from each other. I magnify this
> left/right error X10 and plot it as I work. This highlights areas I
need
> to "attack". 
> 
> 
> 
>
__________________________________________________________Choose
the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car
Finder tool.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
>



         


Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
		http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
       
---------------------------------
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I measure facing length from the very end, the outside of the tip rail.  I measure tip opening at the middle of the tip rail.
   
  Paul

honkytone <dwf@...> wrote:
          Well, I'm using the zero setback glass gauge, and it's no more
difficult to set it to the inside of the tip rail than it would be to
the outside. This sure is explaining why others have thought my
facings are longer than I intended!

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>
wrote:
>
> I have never heard of anyone zeroing the glass gauge inside the tip
rail. 
> I think that would be a difficult way to work. 
> 
> The edge zero glass gauge is intended to be physically zeroed with the
> mouthpiece tip on a table edge or other suitable "stop". I suppose any
> glass gauge could be zeroed by eye anywhere. But the convention is the
> very tip (outside the tip rail).
> 
> --- honkytone <dwf@...> wrote:
> 
> > Thanks, Keith, that is hugely helpful. Just one followup, and it has
> > to do with where zero on the glass gauge is set: at the outer end of
> > the tip or at the inner edge of the tip rail. I understand how to
> > account for that on the spreadsheet, but if someone passes along a
> > list of values, say, .0015H, .005C, .0108, etc., do you PRESUME
> > zero was set at the end of the tip or at the inside of the rail tip? 
> > Is there a convention or consensus on that? Thanks again.
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
__________________________________________________________Luggage?
GPS? Comic books? 
> Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
> http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
>



         


Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
		http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
       
---------------------------------
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Does anyone have any contact info. for getting in touch with the jj babbitt company.  I am looking for a glass facing gauge, and heard they are the people to get them from. Thanks

       
---------------------------------
Luggage? GPS? Comic books? 
Check out fitting  gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.

You can also get some from Keith right here on the forum.
   
  info@...
   
  (574) 293-6514
   
  Ask for the "zero edge" model.
   
  Paul

arnold montgomery <ammouthpieces@...> wrote:
            Does anyone have any contact info. for getting in touch with the jj babbitt company.  I am looking for a glass facing gauge, and heard they are the people to get them from. Thanks
    
---------------------------------
  Luggage? GPS? Comic books? 
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.  

         


Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
		http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
       
---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. 

J. J. Babbitt
  PO Box 1264
  Elkhart,IN 46515
   
  574-293-6514
   
  Website:  www.jjbabbitt.com
   
  Email:  info@...
  

arnold montgomery <ammouthpieces@...> wrote:
            Does anyone have any contact info. for getting in touch with the jj babbitt company.  I am looking for a glass facing gauge, and heard they are the people to get them from. Thanks
    
---------------------------------
  Luggage? GPS? Comic books? 
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.  

         


Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
		http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
 
---------------------------------
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I am sold out and I do not plan to get any more in the near future.

My glass gauge was made for me by a friend who does bead blasting on glass.  It works very well.  What kind of need is there amongst the group for these gauges?  How many people would like one?  So far they are not of the zero end kind, but this should also be possible. Please let me know, and we'll look into making a quantity.

Geoff Secomb. 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Keith Bradbury 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 11:18 AM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MOJO Glass Gauges


  I am sold out and I do not plan to get any more in the near future.



   

Very good!
   
  Paul

Geoff & Sherryl-Lee Secomb <gsecomb@...> wrote:
            My glass gauge was made for me by a friend who does bead blasting on glass.  It works very well.  What kind of need is there amongst the group for these gauges?  How many people would like one?  So far they are not of the zero end kind, but this should also be possible. Please let me know, and we'll look into making a quantity.
   
  Geoff Secomb. 
   
    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Keith Bradbury 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 11:18 AM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] MOJO Glass Gauges
  

    I am sold out and I do not plan to get any more in the near future.



  

         


Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
		http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
       
---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake. 
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

Which brings up a question I've been meaning to ask for some time:  Is there a rule of thumb as to how big the difference in length is between the zero point and the .0015 feeler?  Is it the same for clarinet, alto sax, tenor sax, etc? 
Thanks,
Geoff Secomb.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul C. 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 6:16 AM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Facing Curve Tables & Spreadsheets



  Yes, it should be the radius of a perfect circle whose arc is tangent to the table.  (See?  I paid attention in geometry and calculus!)

  By varying the radius of the curve, and where the arc is tangent to the table (facing length) tip opening can be varied.

  We can't measure where the arc meets the table (facing length) because that would require a feeler of zero thickness... the best we can do is use a very thin .0015" feeler (or 0.04 mm), which is close.  That is the standard for designating facing length.

  Paul

  honkytone <dwf@...> wrote:
    Dan,

    That does help, thanks. While facing lengths are commonly expressed,
    along with tip openings, upon what does one base their chosen radius
    values? Does that value represent the curvature of a perfect circle
    with that radius in inches? I'm missing something in there.





  Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
  http://www.saxgourmet.com
  Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
  http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

  Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
  http://www.saxrax.com 
  For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. 

   

Zero (tip) to the .0015" feeler ("Facing Length")
   
  Clarinet    Medium facing 15-16 mm (E. Brand scale 30-32)
   
  Soprano Sax  Soprano Sax 16 mm (E.Brand scale 32 mm)
   
  Alto Sax   Medium facing 20 mm (EB 40), Long facing 22 mm (EB 44)
   
  Tenor Sax   Medium facing 22 mm (EB 44), Long facing 24 mm (EB 48)
   
  Baritone Sax   Medium facing 24 - 25 mm (EB 48 - 50), Long facing 26 mm (EB 52)
   
  Bass Sax  29 mm - 31 mm (EB 58 - 62)
   
  Paul

Geoff & Sherryl-Lee Secomb <gsecomb@...> wrote:
            Which brings up a question I've been meaning to ask for some time:  Is there a rule of thumb as to how big the difference in length is between the zero point and the .0015 feeler?  Is it the same for clarinet, alto sax, tenor sax, etc? 
  Thanks,
  Geoff Secomb.
   
    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul C. 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 6:16 AM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Facing Curve Tables & Spreadsheets
  

      Yes, it should be the radius of a perfect circle whose arc is tangent to the table.  (See?  I paid attention in geometry and calculus!)
   
  By varying the radius of the curve, and where the arc is tangent to the table (facing length) tip opening can be varied.
   
  We can't measure where the arc meets the table (facing length) because that would require a feeler of zero thickness... the best we can do is use a very thin .0015" feeler (or 0.04 mm), which is close.  That is the standard for designating facing length.
   
  Paul

honkytone <dwf@...> wrote:
      Dan,

That does help, thanks. While facing lengths are commonly expressed,
along with tip openings, upon what does one base their chosen radius
values? Does that value represent the curvature of a perfect circle
with that radius in inches? I'm missing something in there.






Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...     
---------------------------------
  Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.   

  

         


Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
		http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
       
---------------------------------
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

Thanks Paul, but I must have been unclear in the way I asked the question (which was actually quite some days ago! Where did that message go?)  What I wanted to know was, if, for example, you looked at a manufacturers specification for a clarinet MP which showed a facing length of 19 mm, which I am assuming is the very spot where the curve starts (zero point in my original question) what length would you use for the .0015 feeler?  Am I assuming correctly that manufacturers use absolute length instead of measurable-by-feeler length?
Thanks,
Geoff.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul C. 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 7:20 AM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Facing Curve Tables & Spreadsheets



  Zero (tip) to the .0015" feeler ("Facing Length")

  Clarinet    Medium facing 15-16 mm (E. Brand scale 30-32)

  Soprano Sax  Soprano Sax 16 mm (E.Brand scale 32 mm)

  Alto Sax   Medium facing 20 mm (EB 40), Long facing 22 mm (EB 44)

  Tenor Sax   Medium facing 22 mm (EB 44), Long facing 24 mm (EB 48)

  Baritone Sax   Medium facing 24 - 25 mm (EB 48 - 50), Long facing 26 mm (EB 52)

  Bass Sax  29 mm - 31 mm (EB 58 - 62)

  Paul

  Geoff & Sherryl-Lee Secomb <gsecomb@...> wrote:
    Which brings up a question I've been meaning to ask for some time:  Is there a rule of thumb as to how big the difference in length is between the zero point and the .0015 feeler?  Is it the same for clarinet, alto sax, tenor sax, etc? 
    Thanks,
    Geoff Secomb.

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Paul C. 
      To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
      Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 6:16 AM
      Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Facing Curve Tables & Spreadsheets


      Yes, it should be the radius of a perfect circle whose arc is tangent to the table.  (See?  I paid attention in geometry and calculus!)

      By varying the radius of the curve, and where the arc is tangent to the table (facing length) tip opening can be varied.

      We can't measure where the arc meets the table (facing length) because that would require a feeler of zero thickness... the best we can do is use a very thin .0015" feeler (or 0.04 mm), which is close.  That is the standard for designating facing length.

      Paul

      honkytone <dwf@...> wrote:
        Dan,

        That does help, thanks. While facing lengths are commonly expressed,
        along with tip openings, upon what does one base their chosen radius
        values? Does that value represent the curvature of a perfect circle
        with that radius in inches? I'm missing something in there.





      Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
      http://www.saxgourmet.com
      Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
      http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

      Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
      http://www.saxrax.com 
      For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@saxrax.com 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. 



  Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
  http://www.saxgourmet.com
  Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
  http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

  Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
  http://www.saxrax.com 
  For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
  Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

   

You can't measure the zero spot, where the curve meets the plane of the table at a tangent.  It would require a feeler with zero thickness.  The best we can do is .0015".
   
  What if you used a .0010" feeler?  Or .0005"?  It would go in perhaps a mm further.  Hah!  If you used a .00000000" feeler, it would pass all the way to the butt end of the mouthpiece!
   
  Measurement with the .0015" feeler is considered the facing length.  
   
  Paul

Geoff & Sherryl-Lee Secomb <gsecomb@...> wrote:
            Thanks Paul, but I must have been unclear in the way I asked the question (which was actually quite some days ago! Where did that message go?)  What I wanted to know was, if, for example, you looked at a manufacturers specification for a clarinet MP which showed a facing length of 19 mm, which I am assuming is the very spot where the curve starts (zero point in my original question) what length would you use for the .0015 feeler?  Am I assuming correctly that manufacturers use absolute length instead of measurable-by-feeler length?
  Thanks,
  Geoff.
   
    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul C. 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 7:20 AM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Facing Curve Tables & Spreadsheets
  

      Zero (tip) to the .0015" feeler ("Facing Length")
   
  Clarinet    Medium facing 15-16 mm (E. Brand scale 30-32)
   
  Soprano Sax  Soprano Sax 16 mm (E.Brand scale 32 mm)
   
  Alto Sax   Medium facing 20 mm (EB 40), Long facing 22 mm (EB 44)
   
  Tenor Sax   Medium facing 22 mm (EB 44), Long facing 24 mm (EB 48)
   
  Baritone Sax   Medium facing 24 - 25 mm (EB 48 - 50), Long facing 26 mm (EB 52)
   
  Bass Sax  29 mm - 31 mm (EB 58 - 62)
   
  Paul

Geoff & Sherryl-Lee Secomb <gsecomb@...> wrote:
        Which brings up a question I've been meaning to ask for some time:  Is there a rule of thumb as to how big the difference in length is between the zero point and the .0015 feeler?  Is it the same for clarinet, alto sax, tenor sax, etc? 
  Thanks,
  Geoff Secomb.
   
    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul C. 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 6:16 AM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Facing Curve Tables & Spreadsheets
  

      Yes, it should be the radius of a perfect circle whose arc is tangent to the table.  (See?  I paid attention in geometry and calculus!)
   
  By varying the radius of the curve, and where the arc is tangent to the table (facing length) tip opening can be varied.
   
  We can't measure where the arc meets the table (facing length) because that would require a feeler of zero thickness... the best we can do is use a very thin .0015" feeler (or 0.04 mm), which is close.  That is the standard for designating facing length.
   
  Paul

honkytone <dwf@...> wrote:
      Dan,

That does help, thanks. While facing lengths are commonly expressed,
along with tip openings, upon what does one base their chosen radius
values? Does that value represent the curvature of a perfect circle
with that radius in inches? I'm missing something in there.






Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...     
---------------------------------
  Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.   



  





Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...     
---------------------------------
  Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.   

  

         


Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
		http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
       
---------------------------------
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--- Geoff & Sherryl-Lee Secomb <gsecomb@...> wrote:

> Thanks Paul, but I must have been unclear in the way I asked the question
> (which was actually quite some days ago! Where did that message go?) 

Yahoo thought it might be spam and held it for my approval.  They had never
done that before so I did not know it was held.  I just stumbled on it.


       
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I think Vandoren may actually state facing lengths as to where the curve
actually breaks away from the table (the .0000 feeler point).  I remember
reviewing some specs they used to supply.  All their reported facing
lengths were longer than what I measured.


       
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Just goes to show there's something new to learn every day.
Thanks for everything,
Geoff.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Keith Bradbury 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 11:36 AM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Held Message



  --- Geoff & Sherryl-Lee Secomb <gsecomb@...> wrote:

  > Thanks Paul, but I must have been unclear in the way I asked the question
  > (which was actually quite some days ago! Where did that message go?) 

  Yahoo thought it might be spam and held it for my approval. They had never
  done that before so I did not know it was held. I just stumbled on it.

  __________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat? 
  Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. 
  http://tv.yahoo.com/


   

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Geoff & Sherryl-Lee Secomb" 
<gsecomb@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Paul, but I must have been unclear in the way I asked the 
question (which was actually quite some days ago! Where did that 
message go?)  What I wanted to know was, if, for example, you looked 
at a manufacturers specification for a clarinet MP which showed a 
facing length of 19 mm, which I am assuming is the very spot where 
the curve starts (zero point in my original question) what length 
would you use for the .0015 feeler?  Am I assuming correctly that 
manufacturers use absolute length instead of measurable-by-feeler 
length?
> Thanks,
> Geoff.
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Paul C. 
>   To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 7:20 AM
>   Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Facing Curve Tables & 
Spreadsheets
> 
> 
> 
>   Zero (tip) to the .0015" feeler ("Facing Length")
> 
>   Clarinet    Medium facing 15-16 mm (E. Brand scale 30-32)
> 
>   Soprano Sax  Soprano Sax 16 mm (E.Brand scale 32 mm)
> 
>   Alto Sax   Medium facing 20 mm (EB 40), Long facing 22 mm (EB 44)
> 
>   Tenor Sax   Medium facing 22 mm (EB 44), Long facing 24 mm (EB 48)
> 
>   Baritone Sax   Medium facing 24 - 25 mm (EB 48 - 50), Long facing 
26 mm (EB 52)
> 
>   Bass Sax  29 mm - 31 mm (EB 58 - 62)
> 
>   Paul
> 
>   Geoff & Sherryl-Lee Secomb <gsecomb@...> wrote:
>     Which brings up a question I've been meaning to ask for some 
time:  Is there a rule of thumb as to how big the difference in 
length is between the zero point and the .0015 feeler?  Is it the 
same for clarinet, alto sax, tenor sax, etc? 
>     Thanks,
>     Geoff Secomb.
> 
>       ----- Original Message ----- 
>       From: Paul C. 
>       To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
>       Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 6:16 AM
>       Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Facing Curve Tables & 
Spreadsheets
> 
> 
>       Yes, it should be the radius of a perfect circle whose arc is 
tangent to the table.  (See?  I paid attention in geometry and 
calculus!)
> 
>       By varying the radius of the curve, and where the arc is 
tangent to the table (facing length) tip opening can be varied.
> 
>       We can't measure where the arc meets the table (facing 
length) because that would require a feeler of zero thickness... the 
best we can do is use a very thin .0015" feeler (or 0.04 mm), which 
is close.  That is the standard for designating facing length.
> 
>       Paul
> 
>       honkytone <dwf@...> wrote:
>         Dan,
> 
>         That does help, thanks. While facing lengths are commonly 
expressed,
>         along with tip openings, upon what does one base their 
chosen radius
>         values? Does that value represent the curvature of a 
perfect circle
>         with that radius in inches? I'm missing something in there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
>       http://www.saxgourmet.com
>       Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
>       http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
> 
>       Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
>       http://www.saxrax.com 
>       For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@... 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
------
>       Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top 
picks on Yahoo! TV. 
> 
> 
> 
>   Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
>   http://www.saxgourmet.com
>   Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
>   http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
> 
>   Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
>   http://www.saxrax.com 
>   For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
>   Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative 
vehicles.
>   Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
>

    If I sometimes want to measure closer to the point of zero to 
make sure that the lay starts parallel, I use a new sheet of 
cigarette paper to measure the start with. They are even thinner than 
the thinnest feeler.I use the side with no glue on. I have not found 
any other way to come closer to the point of zero. 

     Helge

-      Sorry, I posted my reply in the bottom of this list. I will 
try again. 
       If I sometimes want to get closer to the point of zero to 
controll that the start of the lay is parallel I use a new sheet of 
cigarett paper which is actually thinner than the thinnest feeler. I 
use the side without glue onit.that is the closest I have been able 
to get to the point of zero on the lay.

        Helge



 In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "railwayreed" <helgsolv@...> 
wrote:
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@...m, "Geoff & Sherryl-Lee Secomb" 
> <gsecomb@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Paul, but I must have been unclear in the way I asked the 
> question (which was actually quite some days ago! Where did that 
> message go?)  What I wanted to know was, if, for example, you 
looked 
> at a manufacturers specification for a clarinet MP which showed a 
> facing length of 19 mm, which I am assuming is the very spot where 
> the curve starts (zero point in my original question) what length 
> would you use for the .0015 feeler?  Am I assuming correctly that 
> manufacturers use absolute length instead of measurable-by-feeler 
> length?
> > Thanks,
> > Geoff.
> > 
> >   ----- Original Message ----- 
> >   From: Paul C. 
> >   To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> >   Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 7:20 AM
> >   Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Facing Curve Tables & 
> Spreadsheets
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   Zero (tip) to the .0015" feeler ("Facing Length")
> > 
> >   Clarinet    Medium facing 15-16 mm (E. Brand scale 30-32)
> > 
> >   Soprano Sax  Soprano Sax 16 mm (E.Brand scale 32 mm)
> > 
> >   Alto Sax   Medium facing 20 mm (EB 40), Long facing 22 mm (EB 
44)
> > 
> >   Tenor Sax   Medium facing 22 mm (EB 44), Long facing 24 mm (EB 
48)
> > 
> >   Baritone Sax   Medium facing 24 - 25 mm (EB 48 - 50), Long 
facing 
> 26 mm (EB 52)
> > 
> >   Bass Sax  29 mm - 31 mm (EB 58 - 62)
> > 
> >   Paul
> > 
> >   Geoff & Sherryl-Lee Secomb <gsecomb@> wrote:
> >     Which brings up a question I've been meaning to ask for some 
> time:  Is there a rule of thumb as to how big the difference in 
> length is between the zero point and the .0015 feeler?  Is it the 
> same for clarinet, alto sax, tenor sax, etc? 
> >     Thanks,
> >     Geoff Secomb.
> > 
> >       ----- Original Message ----- 
> >       From: Paul C. 
> >       To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> >       Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 6:16 AM
> >       Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Facing Curve Tables & 
> Spreadsheets
> > 
> > 
> >       Yes, it should be the radius of a perfect circle whose arc 
is 
> tangent to the table.  (See?  I paid attention in geometry and 
> calculus!)
> > 
> >       By varying the radius of the curve, and where the arc is 
> tangent to the table (facing length) tip opening can be varied.
> > 
> >       We can't measure where the arc meets the table (facing 
> length) because that would require a feeler of zero thickness... 
the 
> best we can do is use a very thin .0015" feeler (or 0.04 mm), which 
> is close.  That is the standard for designating facing length.
> > 
> >       Paul
> > 
> >       honkytone <dwf@> wrote:
> >         Dan,
> > 
> >         That does help, thanks. While facing lengths are commonly 
> expressed,
> >         along with tip openings, upon what does one base their 
> chosen radius
> >         values? Does that value represent the curvature of a 
> perfect circle
> >         with that radius in inches? I'm missing something in 
there.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >       Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
> >       http://www.saxgourmet.com
> >       Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
> >       http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
> > 
> >       Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
> >       http://www.saxrax.com 
> >       For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@ 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ------
> >       Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top 
> picks on Yahoo! TV. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
> >   http://www.saxgourmet.com
> >   Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
> >   http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
> > 
> >   Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
> >   http://www.saxrax.com 
> >   For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----------
> >   Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative 
> vehicles.
> >   Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
> >
> 
>     If I sometimes want to measure closer to the point of zero to 
> make sure that the lay starts parallel, I use a new sheet of 
> cigarette paper to measure the start with. They are even thinner 
than 
> the thinnest feeler.I use the side with no glue on. I have not 
found 
> any other way to come closer to the point of zero. 
> 
>      Helge
>

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "railwayreed" <helgsolv@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Geoff & Sherryl-Lee Secomb" 
> <gsecomb@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Paul, but I must have been unclear in the way I asked the 
> question (which was actually quite some days ago! Where did that 
> message go?)  What I wanted to know was, if, for example, you looked 
> at a manufacturers specification for a clarinet MP which showed a 
> facing length of 19 mm, which I am assuming is the very spot where 
> the curve starts (zero point in my original question) what length 
> would you use for the .0015 feeler?  Am I assuming correctly that 
> manufacturers use absolute length instead of measurable-by-feeler 
> length?
> > Thanks,
> > Geoff.
> > 
> >   ----- Original Message ----- 
> >   From: Paul C. 
> >   To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> >   Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 7:20 AM
> >   Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Facing Curve Tables & 
> Spreadsheets
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   Zero (tip) to the .0015" feeler ("Facing Length")
> > 
> >   Clarinet    Medium facing 15-16 mm (E. Brand scale 30-32)
> > 
> >   Soprano Sax  Soprano Sax 16 mm (E.Brand scale 32 mm)
> > 
> >   Alto Sax   Medium facing 20 mm (EB 40), Long facing 22 mm (EB 44)
> > 
> >   Tenor Sax   Medium facing 22 mm (EB 44), Long facing 24 mm (EB 48)
> > 
> >   Baritone Sax   Medium facing 24 - 25 mm (EB 48 - 50), Long facing 
> 26 mm (EB 52)
> > 
> >   Bass Sax  29 mm - 31 mm (EB 58 - 62)
> > 
> >   Paul
> > 
> >   Geoff & Sherryl-Lee Secomb <gsecomb@> wrote:
> >     Which brings up a question I've been meaning to ask for some 
> time:  Is there a rule of thumb as to how big the difference in 
> length is between the zero point and the .0015 feeler?  Is it the 
> same for clarinet, alto sax, tenor sax, etc? 
> >     Thanks,
> >     Geoff Secomb.
> > 
> >Hi All,
           an interesting thread,
I have been filling in my spreadsheet measurement points, from feeler
.0015" to Zero, with 5.3 ( E Brand scale ) This was based on the
average of a selection of posted Clarinet curves.

It might be useful as Geoff says, to have an agreed figure for this
measurement, for clarinet through to baritone.

 This might be difficult though, as lays vary in length so much and
opinions differ as to what is a medium length.

I bow to Paul's greater knowledge, but was surprised to see he
classified 15 - 16mm clarinet as Medium length.

I find this particularly interesting, as I have been experimenting
with the length of Clarinet lays and have a preference for this
length, thinking of these as Short, based on published charts.

With Vandoren clarinet lay lengths seeming excessively long and Rico
Graftonite lengths, often greater than the published figures, we will
perhaps never have an answer to the .0015" to Zero question ? Eddie.

>

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "railwayreed" <helgsolv@...> wrote:

>        If I sometimes want to get closer to the point of zero to 
> controll that the start of the lay is parallel I use a new sheet of 
> cigarett paper which is actually thinner than the thinnest feeler. I 
> use the side without glue onit.that is the closest I have been able 
> to get to the point of zero on the lay.

Taking care to do your measuring BEFORE making the best use of that
rolling paper, right?  :-)

-    Yeah, right, you got it. But who knows what happens  when you work 
late at night, half asleep, looking for a cigarette, rolling the 
mouthpiece with your fingers....- I say no more. :-)

      Helge

-- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "honkytone" <dwf@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "railwayreed" <helgsolv@> 
wrote:
> 
> >        If I sometimes want to get closer to the point of zero to 
> > controll that the start of the lay is parallel I use a new sheet of 
> > cigarett paper which is actually thinner than the thinnest feeler. 
I 
> > use the side without glue onit.that is the closest I have been able 
> > to get to the point of zero on the lay.
> 
> Taking care to do your measuring BEFORE making the best use of that
> rolling paper, right?  :-)
>