Here is an intersting topic for discussion...

How many of you have had a client come to you for consultation and said 
that they would like to sound like Cannonball Adderley or Phil Woods, 
Paul Desmond, Plas Johnson or any other name that you would insert in 
their place? 

What would be your response?

One of my challenges was to sound like Sam Butera.  The client had a Berg
similar to Sam's but was not getting the buzz and resonance he was looking
for after my rework.  I got the piece back and I could not come up with a
thing to change.  So I got some sound clips of Sam playing Mala Femena.  I
listened, learned and recorded my best imitation.  I just used the sound
recorder that came with Windows and a cheapo mic.  (I think the noise made
it sound more like a vintage recording.)  The client loved it and asked me
what I changed in the mouthpiece.  I was tempted to make something up but I
told him nothing.  I was using a Fibracell reed and he thought that might
help.  But the real diff was filling the sax with sound like Sam does...
and a little bit of reverb.

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I think it's more that people like certain tonal characteristics. We all know that a rubber Link can allow a player to sound like Sonny Rollins, Trane, early 70's Brecker, Getz, etc.....but people also know that it's going to be really hard to get a Brecker sound out of an S-80.
   
  When I was looking for an alto mouthpiece, I made it clear that I like a Meyer NY type sound. I know that Cannonball and Phil have different sounds but there is a commonality as well. (bright enough to project but no Sanborn; thick without being dull, etc.). I think that what people really mean. IMHO

gwindplayer <gregwier@...> wrote:
          Here is an intersting topic for discussion...

How many of you have had a client come to you for consultation and said 
that they would like to sound like Cannonball Adderley or Phil Woods, 
Paul Desmond, Plas Johnson or any other name that you would insert in 
their place? 

What would be your response?



         


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I try to get them to understand that a lot of the sound is in the player, and things other than just tone, but I can suggest a mouthpiece model, or modification, that will help them achieve that type of tone easier.
   
  Like people who say, "You can play jazz on a Soloist C*."  Yeah, but you can do it a lot easier on other mouthpieces.  Let's be realistic, you'd have a tough time with a Soloist playing Malaguena in Stan Kenton's sax section.  
   
  Paul Coats

gwindplayer <gregwier@...> wrote:
          Here is an intersting topic for discussion...

How many of you have had a client come to you for consultation and said 
that they would like to sound like Cannonball Adderley or Phil Woods, 
Paul Desmond, Plas Johnson or any other name that you would insert in 
their place? 

What would be your response?



         


Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
		http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
       
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

My response wold be to stand in a corner and play long tones.
   
   All kidding aside, I have been a member of this forum for over a year and have watched......i am a repair tech with a Straubinger certification, NAPBIRT member and am beginning my journey. Matching a mouthpiece to a horn, aside from player pref. is something i am interested in hearing about. Any ideas. I play a 78#####  Mark VI, I have had tonns of different mouthpieces, and lost my main one in a house fire(sad) it forced me to try lots of others, I have settled in a Brill tonalin, it is the same vintage as Louise (my VI) and have found the two to work in harmony(sorry had too)  aside from that I do like the tone it gives me.
   
   But back to my question of matching horns to mouthpieces....any imput?
   
  Regards
   
  Joe

Kevin Goss <male_saxist@...> wrote:
            I think it's more that people like certain tonal characteristics. We all know that a rubber Link can allow a player to sound like Sonny Rollins, Trane, early 70's Brecker, Getz, etc.....but people also know that it's going to be really hard to get a Brecker sound out of an S-80.
   
  When I was looking for an alto mouthpiece, I made it clear that I like a Meyer NY type sound. I know that Cannonball and Phil have different sounds but there is a commonality as well. (bright enough to project but no Sanborn; thick without being dull, etc.). I think that what people really mean. IMHO

gwindplayer <gregwier@...> wrote:
      Here is an intersting topic for discussion...

How many of you have had a client come to you for consultation and said 
that they would like to sound like Cannonball Adderley or Phil Woods, 
Paul Desmond, Plas Johnson or any other name that you would insert in 
their place? 

What would be your response?






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a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.    
---------------------------------
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Woah, Paul! Careful what you say my friend.  I play jazz on a soloist 
C and I am not want for projection.  I play lead in several 
professional big bands and have not problem getting on top of the 
saxophone section or competing with the brass.  I don't use a mic in 
small group settings and I get plenty of volume and projection for 
any professional situation.  Many of my colleagues ask me what I'm 
playing on and, like you might be, are incredulous that I'm playing 
this mouthpiece.  It is not always about the tip opening!

I have always believed that tone production, while made efficient 
with a good setup, is almost completely created by the human part of 
the instrument (ie use of air via the throat, tongue, and oral 
cavity).

Check out this article if you haven't already, by Dave Liebman that 
supports this. 

http://www.upbeat.com/lieb/Feature_Articles/nirvana.htm

In my experience, it is still the swordsman, not the sword (provided 
that the sword is balanced and made of good materials).

Wil Swindler

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "gwindplayer" <gregwier@...> 
wrote:
>
> Here is an intersting topic for discussion...
> 
> How many of you have had a client come to you for consultation and 
said 
> that they would like to sound like Cannonball Adderley or Phil Woods, 
> Paul Desmond, Plas Johnson or any other name that you would insert in 
> their place? 
> 
> What would be your response?

There are some very good and to the point responses. 

Three components will determine a player's tonal character. The 
instrument, the mouthpiece, reed and ligature setup and one's physical 
makeup. It would probably be best to take all three into consideration 
while giving advice to a client for a desired result. Many 
inexperienced players seem to think that the mouthpiece is the magic 
component for the desired sound.  I remember a friend going to great 
lengths and expense to acquire an SBA alto and a Gregory Hollywood 4A18 
mouthpiece expecting to sound like Paul Desmond. Just like Gomer Pyle 
would say: "Surprise, surprise". He didn't.  Hard work and the right 
physical makeup were missing. There are people who sound great 
regardless of which setup that they use. Sam Rivers and Walter Beasley 
just use the mouthpiece that came with the Keilwerth horn and 
concentrate on the music. 

The tradition of outstanding jazz players is to present a highly 
personalized signature sound or style that sets them apart from the 
herd.  From Sidney Bechet to Johnny Hodges to Cannon and Phil Woods to 
Sanborn and Brecker the tonal personality is captivating and draws 
people into their music. 

Maybe the question should be "How can I sound like a totally unique 
individual with a sound that entices my audience?"

 

This html message parsed with html2text ---------------------------Yes, mouthpiece selection is just part of each player's search for his/her
personal sound, not the magic key to sound like so-and-so. A colleague of
mine, an amazing player who directs the jazz studies program at a large
university, constantly gets asked by students "what kind of mouthpiece should
I play on?". His answer is that they should find a mouthpiece that allows them
to not think about their mouthpiece all the time, freeing them up to actually
play music.  
  
I'm just trying to do good work and help players along. I'm against the way
mouthpieces become a kind of fetish object for some players - and as refacers,
we're going to see those guys. But, hey, if someone wanted to pay me to put a
copper band on their HR mouthpiece because they like the added resonance (see
Paul Coats' archived posts about that...), I might just take the work!  
  
Dan T  
  
gwindplayer wrote:

> \\--- In
> [MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com](mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com),
> "gwindplayer" .>  
>  wrote:  
>  >  
>  > Here is an intersting topic for discussion...  
>  >  
>  > How many of you have had a client come to you for consultation and  
>  said  
>  > that they would like to sound like Cannonball Adderley or Phil Woods,  
>  > Paul Desmond, Plas Johnson or any other name that you would insert in  
>  > their place?  
>  >  
>  > What would be your response?  
>  
>  There are some very good and to the point responses.  
>  
>  Three components will determine a player's tonal character. The  
>  instrument, the mouthpiece, reed and ligature setup and one's physical  
>  makeup. It would probably be best to take all three into consideration  
>  while giving advice to a client for a desired result. Many  
>  inexperienced players seem to think that the mouthpiece is the magic  
>  component for the desired sound. I remember a friend going to great  
>  lengths and expense to acquire an SBA alto and a Gregory Hollywood 4A18  
>  mouthpiece expecting to sound like Paul Desmond. Just like Gomer Pyle  
>  would say: "Surprise, surprise". He didn't. Hard work and the right  
>  physical makeup were missing. There are people who sound great  
>  regardless of which setup that they use. Sam Rivers and Walter Beasley  
>  just use the mouthpiece that came with the Keilwerth horn and  
>  concentrate on the music.  
>  
>  The tradition of outstanding jazz players is to present a highly  
>  personalized signature sound or style that sets them apart from the  
>  herd. From Sidney Bechet to Johnny Hodges to Cannon and Phil Woods to  
>  Sanborn and Brecker the tonal personality is captivating and draws  
>  people into their music.  
>  
>  Maybe the question should be "How can I sound like a totally unique  
>  individual with a sound that entices my audience?"  
>  
>
>  
>  
>  
>  
>     * * *
>  
>      No virus found in this incoming
>     message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database:
>     269.6.2/787 - Release Date: 5/3/2007 2:11 PM

"His answer is that they should find a mouthpiece that allows them to not think about their mouthpiece all the time, freeing them up to actually play music."
   
   
  BINGO!!!  We have a winner!!!
   
  That is EXACTLY how I feel about mouthpieces, reeds (I play Fibracell), and instruments. 
   
  Like Forest Gump said, "Well, that's one less thing to worry about."
   
  A mouthpiece (or any other thing we use for our art) should allow us to do what we want, not make us.
   
  Many years ago in Hot Rod Magazine, I think this was late 60's or early 70's, there was a article where they took an old Cadillac... a huge battleship of a car back then.  They ran this chunk of iron down the quarter mile and it turned in a miserable 19 seconds even with the nearly 500 cubic inch engine under the hood.
   
  Then they removed the back seat, spare tire, and jack.  They ran it down the strip again, and it did 17 seconds.
   
  Hey, that worked!  
   
  Next they removed all of the interior, installing just a single lightweight racing seat for the driver.  They took out the dashboard.
   
  They ran it down the strip and were in the 15's.
   
  They removed hubcaps, air conditioner cooling coil, compressor, etc, and anything else not needed to move down the road.  They took off the trunk lid, the hood, bumpers, front fenders, and doors.  Now the car was in the low 13's.
   
  They did all that without modifying or adjusting the engine.  They made a calculation of how much horsepower increase it would have taken to drop 6 seconds elapsed time, and the cost of modifications to achieve that... engine modifications, drive train, etc.
   
  So, what they did was achieve a considerable performance gain by REMOVING THE OBSTACLES.  
   
  And that is where we can easily improve our playing... by removing the obstacles, the things that make our playing more difficult.
   
  Paul Coats
   
  

Dan Torosian <dtorosian@...> wrote:
          Yes, mouthpiece selection is just part of each player's search for his/her personal sound, not the magic key to sound like so-and-so.  A colleague of mine, an amazing player who directs the jazz studies program at a large university, constantly gets asked by students "what kind of mouthpiece should I play on?".  His answer is that they should find a mouthpiece that allows them to not think about their mouthpiece all the time, freeing them up to actually play music.  

I'm just trying to do good work and help players along.  I'm against the way mouthpieces become a kind of fetish object for some players - and as refacers, we're going to see those guys.  But, hey, if someone wanted to pay me to put a copper band on their HR mouthpiece because they like the added resonance (see Paul Coats' archived posts about that...), I might just take the work!

Dan T

gwindplayer wrote:       --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "gwindplayer" <gregwier@...> 
wrote:
>
> Here is an intersting topic for discussion...
> 
> How many of you have had a client come to you for consultation and 
said 
> that they would like to sound like Cannonball Adderley or Phil Woods, 
> Paul Desmond, Plas Johnson or any other name that you would insert in 
> their place? 
> 
> What would be your response?

There are some very good and to the point responses. 

Three components will determine a player's tonal character. The 
instrument, the mouthpiece, reed and ligature setup and one's physical 
makeup. It would probably be best to take all three into consideration 
while giving advice to a client for a desired result. Many 
inexperienced players seem to think that the mouthpiece is the magic 
component for the desired sound. I remember a friend going to great 
lengths and expense to acquire an SBA alto and a Gregory Hollywood 4A18 
mouthpiece expecting to sound like Paul Desmond. Just like Gomer Pyle 
would say: "Surprise, surprise". He didn't. Hard work and the right 
physical makeup were missing. There are people who sound great 
regardless of which setup that they use. Sam Rivers and Walter Beasley 
just use the mouthpiece that came with the Keilwerth horn and 
concentrate on the music. 

The tradition of outstanding jazz players is to present a highly 
personalized signature sound or style that sets them apart from the 
herd. From Sidney Bechet to Johnny Hodges to Cannon and Phil Woods to 
Sanborn and Brecker the tonal personality is captivating and draws 
people into their music. 

Maybe the question should be "How can I sound like a totally unique 
individual with a sound that entices my audience?"





---------------------------------
  No virus found in this incoming message.  Checked by AVG Free Edition.   Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/787 - Release Date: 5/3/2007 2:11 PM    
  

         


Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
		http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
       
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

I think you hit it right on the head, Paul!

Tom


--- "Paul C." <tenorman1952@...> wrote:

> "His answer is that they should find a mouthpiece
> that allows them to not think about their mouthpiece
> all the time, freeing them up to actually play
> music."
>    
>    
>   BINGO!!!  We have a winner!!!
>    
>   That is EXACTLY how I feel about mouthpieces,
> reeds (I play Fibracell), and instruments. 
>    
>   Like Forest Gump said, "Well, that's one less
> thing to worry about."
>    
>   A mouthpiece (or any other thing we use for our
> art) should allow us to do what we want, not make
> us.
>    
>   Many years ago in Hot Rod Magazine, I think this
> was late 60's or early 70's, there was a article
> where they took an old Cadillac... a huge battleship
> of a car back then.  They ran this chunk of iron
> down the quarter mile and it turned in a miserable
> 19 seconds even with the nearly 500 cubic inch
> engine under the hood.
>    
>   Then they removed the back seat, spare tire, and
> jack.  They ran it down the strip again, and it did
> 17 seconds.
>    
>   Hey, that worked!  
>    
>   Next they removed all of the interior, installing
> just a single lightweight racing seat for the
> driver.  They took out the dashboard.
>    
>   They ran it down the strip and were in the 15's.
>    
>   They removed hubcaps, air conditioner cooling
> coil, compressor, etc, and anything else not needed
> to move down the road.  They took off the trunk lid,
> the hood, bumpers, front fenders, and doors.  Now
> the car was in the low 13's.
>    
>   They did all that without modifying or adjusting
> the engine.  They made a calculation of how much
> horsepower increase it would have taken to drop 6
> seconds elapsed time, and the cost of modifications
> to achieve that... engine modifications, drive
> train, etc.
>    
>   So, what they did was achieve a considerable
> performance gain by REMOVING THE OBSTACLES.  
>    
>   And that is where we can easily improve our
> playing... by removing the obstacles, the things
> that make our playing more difficult.
>    
>   Paul Coats
>    
>   
> 
> Dan Torosian <dtorosian@...> wrote:
>           Yes, mouthpiece selection is just part of
> each player's search for his/her personal sound, not
> the magic key to sound like so-and-so.  A colleague
> of mine, an amazing player who directs the jazz
> studies program at a large university, constantly
> gets asked by students "what kind of mouthpiece
> should I play on?".  His answer is that they should
> find a mouthpiece that allows them to not think
> about their mouthpiece all the time, freeing them up
> to actually play music.  
> 
> I'm just trying to do good work and help players
> along.  I'm against the way mouthpieces become a
> kind of fetish object for some players - and as
> refacers, we're going to see those guys.  But, hey,
> if someone wanted to pay me to put a copper band on
> their HR mouthpiece because they like the added
> resonance (see Paul Coats' archived posts about
> that...), I might just take the work!
> 
> Dan T
> 
> gwindplayer wrote:       --- In
> MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "gwindplayer"
> <gregwier@...> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Here is an intersting topic for discussion...
> > 
> > How many of you have had a client come to you for
> consultation and 
> said 
> > that they would like to sound like Cannonball
> Adderley or Phil Woods, 
> > Paul Desmond, Plas Johnson or any other name that
> you would insert in 
> > their place? 
> > 
> > What would be your response?
> 
> There are some very good and to the point responses.
> 
> 
> Three components will determine a player's tonal
> character. The 
> instrument, the mouthpiece, reed and ligature setup
> and one's physical 
> makeup. It would probably be best to take all three
> into consideration 
> while giving advice to a client for a desired
> result. Many 
> inexperienced players seem to think that the
> mouthpiece is the magic 
> component for the desired sound. I remember a friend
> going to great 
> lengths and expense to acquire an SBA alto and a
> Gregory Hollywood 4A18 
> mouthpiece expecting to sound like Paul Desmond.
> Just like Gomer Pyle 
> would say: "Surprise, surprise". He didn't. Hard
> work and the right 
> physical makeup were missing. There are people who
> sound great 
> regardless of which setup that they use. Sam Rivers
> and Walter Beasley 
> just use the mouthpiece that came with the Keilwerth
> horn and 
> concentrate on the music. 
> 
> The tradition of outstanding jazz players is to
> present a highly 
> personalized signature sound or style that sets them
> apart from the 
> herd. From Sidney Bechet to Johnny Hodges to Cannon
> and Phil Woods to 
> Sanborn and Brecker the tonal personality is
> captivating and draws 
> people into their music. 
> 
> Maybe the question should be "How can I sound like a
> totally unique 
> individual with a sound that entices my audience?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
>   No virus found in this incoming message.  Checked
> by AVG Free Edition.   Version: 7.5.467 / Virus
> Database: 269.6.2/787 - Release Date: 5/3/2007 2:11
> PM    
>   
> 
>          
> 
> 
> Link to Paul's articles from Main page of
> "Saxgourmet":
> 		http://www.saxgourmet.com
> Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
>            http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
> 
> Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX
> products from 
> http://www.saxrax.com 
> For SAXRAX products, email Paul at
> saxraxus@...
>        
> ---------------------------------
> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
>  Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Paul C.
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 4:14 AM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] I'm a technician not a magician.


"His answer is that they should find a mouthpiece that allows them to not 
think about their mouthpiece all the time, freeing them up to actually play 
music."


BINGO!!!  We have a winner!!!

That is EXACTLY how I feel about mouthpieces, reeds (I play Fibracell), and 
instruments.

Like Forest Gump said, "Well, that's one less thing to worry about."

A mouthpiece (or any other thing we use for our art) should allow us to do 
what we want, not make us.

Many years ago in Hot Rod Magazine, I think this was late 60's or early 
70's, there was a article where they took an old Cadillac... a huge 
battleship of a car back then.  They ran this chunk of iron down the quarter 
mile and it turned in a miserable 19 seconds even with the nearly 500 cubic 
inch engine under the hood.

Then they removed the back seat, spare tire, and jack.  They ran it down the 
strip again, and it did 17 seconds.

Hey, that worked!

Next they removed all of the interior, installing just a single lightweight 
racing seat for the driver.  They took out the dashboard.

They ran it down the strip and were in the 15's.

They removed hubcaps, air conditioner cooling coil, compressor, etc, and 
anything else not needed to move down the road.  They took off the trunk 
lid, the hood, bumpers, front fenders, and doors.  Now the car was in the 
low 13's.

They did all that without modifying or adjusting the engine.  They made a 
calculation of how much horsepower increase it would have taken to drop 6 
seconds elapsed time, and the cost of modifications to achieve that... 
engine modifications, drive train, etc.

So, what they did was achieve a considerable performance gain by REMOVING 
THE OBSTACLES.

And that is where we can easily improve our playing... by removing the 
obstacles, the things that make our playing more difficult.

Paul Coats


I completely agree. Of course the other option would be to take that engine 
and mount it in a completely new chassis--put that 472 in a high-tech frame 
with a composite body and that baby would scream down the strip ;-)

Toby