Just curious of this:

We all debate of facing curves, Hyberbolic, Radial, Eliptical....

But what about this:

1. - Has anyone ever studied the NATURAL shape certain reed cuts 
conform to without a mouthpiece?
2. - What would a facing of this nature do with the reed?

> 1. - Has anyone ever studied the NATURAL shape certain reed cuts 
> conform to without a mouthpiece?

Morgan has talked of a study in one of his SJ articles, but has not given
any details of the results or the assumptions.  Just that the slices of the
reed cross section were looked at (which reed?).  

I think some kind of cantilever beam deflection analysis could be done. 
But what kind of force would you apply to the reed?  Should it be a point
load?  (no) Should it be a uniform load over the window area (as in the
"pop" test).  What do you think approximates the playing forces?  They
change dynamically.

Also, do you think a reed should bend to land on the side and tip rails
simultaneously?  Or should the contact be a rolling one from table to tip? 
Is the best facing curve the one that matches the reed deflection?


 
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Santy Runyon had a 3 part article on mouthpieces in which he described how various facings worked, and why they reacted the way they did.  While not a study of the reed per se, it did conclude the radial curve, one in which the reed rolled smoothly from break to tip, was the best all around facing.  This article is in the archives here at the MouthpieceWork site.
   
  Paul Coats

Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
          > 1. - Has anyone ever studied the NATURAL shape certain reed cuts 
> conform to without a mouthpiece?

Morgan has talked of a study in one of his SJ articles, but has not given
any details of the results or the assumptions. Just that the slices of the
reed cross section were looked at (which reed?). 

I think some kind of cantilever beam deflection analysis could be done. 
But what kind of force would you apply to the reed? Should it be a point
load? (no) Should it be a uniform load over the window area (as in the
"pop" test). What do you think approximates the playing forces? They
change dynamically.

Also, do you think a reed should bend to land on the side and tip rails
simultaneously? Or should the contact be a rolling one from table to tip? 
Is the best facing curve the one that matches the reed deflection?

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--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "austinbrister"
<austinbrister@...> wrote:
>
> Just curious of this:
> 
> We all debate of facing curves, Hyberbolic, Radial, Eliptical....
> 
> But what about this:
> 
> 1. - Has anyone ever studied the NATURAL shape certain reed cuts 
> conform to without a mouthpiece?
> 2. - What would a facing of this nature do with the reed?
>

The natural shape?  I remember reading once that someone had made
super high speed photography of a clarinet reed in action, and found
that the reed went through all kinds of contortions during its cycle.

Mathematically, I believe the action of the reed can be modeled as a
cantilevered beam which bends open and shut over the facing.  No doubt
this involves much simplification of reality.  But if the reed is
considered as a uniformly tapered beam, with a uniform load applied,
you would obtain a x ^ 3 type curve.  If you consider the loading as
diminishing toward the tip, you get a x^2 type curve or parabolic
curve at the maximum deflection.  I think this probably gives the
average max summation of the reed action - hence the shape of the
facing for the reed to seal against.

Empirical experiments have shown that a radial curve works well for
sax mouthpieces, and if you compare this shape to a parabola with the
same start and finish points, you will see that they coincide almost
exactly.

Its pretty obvious why Runyon talked about a radial curve.  He was
using a mechanical rig to cut his curve, and it must have been easier
to make a machine that rotated about an axis than to make a device
that produced a true parabola.  And why bother, since the curve is
almost exactly the same shape in the context of a facing curve.

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "austinbrister"
<austinbrister@...> wrote:
>
> Just curious of this:
> 
> We all debate of facing curves, Hyberbolic, Radial, Eliptical....
> 
> But what about this:
> 
> 1. - Has anyone ever studied the NATURAL shape certain reed cuts 
> conform to without a mouthpiece?
> 2. - What would a facing of this nature do with the reed?
>***********************************************************************
I am guessing that by NATURAL you mean the curve a given reed cut
forms under pressure from its tip to its shoulder, when viewed from
the side.
The makers will know this, but choose not to inform the end user and
it sells more reeds, as we are continually looking for a better one to
match our lay.
This curve would I expect, increase towards the tip, as the reed goes
from thick to thin. A reed of this type would be like the French-cut
Vandoren classique. Mouthpieces do not as a rule, have a lay which
progressively tightens its curve as it approaches the tip. On the
contrary, they sometimes flatten the curve at the tip end. Here, the
reeds NATURAL curve, would depart from the average lay curve and are
not the same, I would think ?
The so called American cut reeds (Rico/Lavoz ?)with their flat cut and
thicker tips were presumably designed for a different lay curve and
will have a different NATURAL curve to the French cut reed.

E.G.   Berg Larsen made MPC's with two different lay curves (and reeds
to match) the SMS & M. The SMS was for the French cut reed & the M was
for the American cut. The M lay was slightly flatter (and longer in
the case of the Tenor) Does anyone know if SMS/M mean specific known
gometrical curves ?
Berg obviously knew the relationship between lay & reed curves. He
made his reeds to match the different lays on his MPC's.

I still use Larsen tenor reeds, having bought a batch when he ceased
production. I can vouch for thier long lasting qualities. All marked
with SMS or M to match his MPC's. I found the SMS would work on almost
anything but not on a Runyon, which I think had a flat M type lay.

I hope this makes some sense & doesn't depart too far from the point
of the original question. These are my own observations & not based on
any scientific facts.

> Mouthpieces do not as a rule, have a lay which
> progressively tightens its curve as it approaches the tip. On the
> contrary, they sometimes flatten the curve at the tip end. 

I think this may be true of clarinet facings.  But most sax facing curves
do curve more as they approach the tip.  Ponzol and Morgan are 2 examples
that are consistently this way.

I have not noticed enough consistency in Bergs facing to reverse-engineer
what they are trying to do with the M vs the SMS.  They seem to be stamped
at random.



 
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--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>
wrote:
>
> 
> > Mouthpieces do not as a rule, have a lay which
> > progressively tightens its curve as it approaches the tip. On the
> > contrary, they sometimes flatten the curve at the tip end. 
> 
> I think this may be true of clarinet facings.  But most sax facing
curves
> do curve more as they approach the tip.  Ponzol and Morgan are 2
examples
> that are consistently this way.

Do you mean like an ellipse?


> 
> I have not noticed enough consistency in Bergs facing to
reverse-engineer
> what they are trying to do with the M vs the SMS.  They seem to be
stamped
> at random.
> 
Of the not many examples of Bergs I have measured, the SMS facing
seemed to be a compound curve, with the first third of the curve next
to the table being a shallow curve, then the remaining 2/3 of the
curve to the tip being a slightly tighter radial curve.  This would
make sense to me if they were intended to work better with a French
cut reed that has a thicker heart near the bark than an American cut
reed.  I have never had a M facing to measure, but presume they a more
like a complete radial curve.  Just guessing though.
>  
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Don't get soaked.  Take a quick peak at the forecast
> with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
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>

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>
wrote:
>
> 
> > Mouthpieces do not as a rule, have a lay which
> > progressively tightens its curve as it approaches the tip. On the
> > contrary, they sometimes flatten the curve at the tip end. 
> 
> I think this may be true of clarinet facings.  But most sax facing
curves
> do curve more as they approach the tip.  Ponzol and Morgan are 2
examples
> that are consistently this way.
> 
> Yes Keith, I had clarinet MPC's in mind when I said that. Thanks for
the correction. I am looking at a print out from this site by yourself
titled J.King's Tenor MP Facings Comparison . I've searched but cannot
find it anymore. This shows four mouthpieces including a Lakey with a
flip tip.
Has this been tried on Jazz clarinet pieces I wonder ?   Eddie.
> 
> 
> 
>  
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Don't get soaked.  Take a quick peak at the forecast
> with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
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>

> I am looking at a print out from this site by yourself
> titled J.King's Tenor MP Facings Comparison . 

This chart is on my personal site under the Analysis section.


 
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--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>
wrote:
>
> > I am looking at a print out from this site by yourself
> > titled J.King's Tenor MP Facings Comparison . 
> 
> This chart is on my personal site under the Analysis section.
>******************************************************************** 
> 
> Thanks Keith , found it. 
>
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