Hi, I am new to this mouthpiece group, and have worked as a refacer for 
about6months.  I recently recieved a Vandoren al3 mouthpiece from a 
classical saxophone player for refacing. The tiprail  on this 
mouthpiece is very broad, nearby 2mm. The player has two more of this 
mouthpiece and the tiprail is the same on all of them. Does any of you 
out there know why this mothpc is designed this way? I got the mouthpc 
for refacing because of problems with the speed tongue technique, and 
wanted me to make it more responsive. My questione here is,can I make 
the tiprail slimmer without making the mouthpiece sound more bright? 
The mouthpiece has a stright baffel.I would be very happy if some of 
you more experienced refacers out there could give me some advice here
(sorry for my bad english,I am a norvegian, and I do not practice it so 
often) 
Thanks!                                                                 
                                                                        
                                                                        
                   

I hope some others might chime in as well with their experiences, but mine has been that thinning the tip rail will not make the mpc brighter at all, but it will certainly make it more responsive. And response will also be improved if you 
make sure there is a clean angle between the tip rail and the beginning of the baffle. Taking off material here (in my experience) makes the mpc less prone to chirping and more free-blowing.

Toby


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: railwayreed 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 4:12 AM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very broad tip rail


  Hi, I am new to this mouthpiece group, and have worked as a refacer for 
  about6months. I recently recieved a Vandoren al3 mouthpiece from a 
  classical saxophone player for refacing. The tiprail on this 
  mouthpiece is very broad, nearby 2mm. The player has two more of this 
  mouthpiece and the tiprail is the same on all of them. Does any of you 
  out there know why this mothpc is designed this way? I got the mouthpc 
  for refacing because of problems with the speed tongue technique, and 
  wanted me to make it more responsive. My questione here is,can I make 
  the tiprail slimmer without making the mouthpiece sound more bright? 
  The mouthpiece has a stright baffel.I would be very happy if some of 
  you more experienced refacers out there could give me some advice here
  (sorry for my bad english,I am a norvegian, and I do not practice it so 
  often) 
  Thanks! 






   

I am fairly inexperienced as a clarinet player (3 years or so) and certainly not a refacer but look at the posts with great interest.
Something Toby said was very interesting about modifying tip rails etc to get "less chirping and more free-blowing."
I have a few mpcs and in my view none are free blowing.Where would I send them for an assessment and possible re-working?
PeterH
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Toby 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: 19 December 2006 14:53
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very broad tip rail



  I hope some others might chime in as well with their experiences, but mine has been that thinning the tip rail will not make the mpc brighter at all, but it will certainly make it more responsive. And response will also be improved if you 
  make sure there is a clean angle between the tip rail and the beginning of the baffle. Taking off material here (in my experience) makes the mpc less prone to chirping and more free-blowing.

  Toby


    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: railwayreed 
    To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
    Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 4:12 AM
    Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very broad tip rail


    Hi, I am new to this mouthpiece group, and have worked as a refacer for 
    about6months. I recently recieved a Vandoren al3 mouthpiece from a 
    classical saxophone player for refacing. The tiprail on this 
    mouthpiece is very broad, nearby 2mm. The player has two more of this 
    mouthpiece and the tiprail is the same on all of them. Does any of you 
    out there know why this mothpc is designed this way? I got the mouthpc 
    for refacing because of problems with the speed tongue technique, and 
    wanted me to make it more responsive. My questione here is,can I make 
    the tiprail slimmer without making the mouthpiece sound more bright? 
    The mouthpiece has a stright baffel.I would be very happy if some of 
    you more experienced refacers out there could give me some advice here
    (sorry for my bad english,I am a norvegian, and I do not practice it so 
    often) 
    Thanks! 







   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
  Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.24/592 - Release Date: 18/12/2006
---------------------------[ Attachment content not displayed ]

The clarinet is a completely different animal than the sax, notwithstanding that both are single reed instruments. The physics of the two are quite different, but the upshot is that the clarinet blows nothing like a sax and never will. I wouldn't expect too much in the way of "more free-blowing" from a reface of a clarinet mpc, unless the rails are very uneven.

Toby


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Peter Healey 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 12:20 AM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very broad tip rail



  I am fairly inexperienced as a clarinet player (3 years or so) and certainly not a refacer but look at the posts with great interest.
  Something Toby said was very interesting about modifying tip rails etc to get "less chirping and more free-blowing."
  I have a few mpcs and in my view none are free blowing.Where would I send them for an assessment and possible re-working?
  PeterH
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Toby 
    To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
    Sent: 19 December 2006 14:53
    Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very broad tip rail



    I hope some others might chime in as well with their experiences, but mine has been that thinning the tip rail will not make the mpc brighter at all, but it will certainly make it more responsive. And response will also be improved if you 
    make sure there is a clean angle between the tip rail and the beginning of the baffle. Taking off material here (in my experience) makes the mpc less prone to chirping and more free-blowing.

    Toby


      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: railwayreed 
      To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
      Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 4:12 AM
      Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very broad tip rail


      Hi, I am new to this mouthpiece group, and have worked as a refacer for 
      about6months. I recently recieved a Vandoren al3 mouthpiece from a 
      classical saxophone player for refacing. The tiprail on this 
      mouthpiece is very broad, nearby 2mm. The player has two more of this 
      mouthpiece and the tiprail is the same on all of them. Does any of you 
      out there know why this mothpc is designed this way? I got the mouthpc 
      for refacing because of problems with the speed tongue technique, and 
      wanted me to make it more responsive. My questione here is,can I make 
      the tiprail slimmer without making the mouthpiece sound more bright? 
      The mouthpiece has a stright baffel.I would be very happy if some of 
      you more experienced refacers out there could give me some advice here
      (sorry for my bad english,I am a norvegian, and I do not practice it so 
      often) 
      Thanks! 









----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    No virus found in this incoming message.
    Checked by AVG Free Edition.
    Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.24/592 - Release Date: 18/12/2006


   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  No virus found in this outgoing message.
  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
  Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.24/592 - Release Date: 18/12/2006

I find that a radial facing is very free blowing on a clarinet.  Too free
blowing for normal classical tip openings.  But they come in handy for wide
tip openings for those that want them.  Like .072+  I have a client who
plays them in a Latin band. 

--- Toby <kymarto123@...> wrote:

> The clarinet is a completely different animal than the sax,
> notwithstanding that both are single reed instruments. The physics of the
> two are quite different, but the upshot is that the clarinet blows
> nothing like a sax and never will. I wouldn't expect too much in the way
> of "more free-blowing" from a reface of a clarinet mpc, unless the rails
> are very uneven.
> 
> Toby
> 
>

__________________________________________________
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Interesting, but I have noticed that the Phil Barone pieces do not 
have a distinct tip rail, but rather 'slide' in to the tip smoothly 
from the baffle. They don't seem to have a tendency to chirp though 
and they are quite responsive. Any thoughts???

jeff
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto123@...> wrote:
>
> I hope some others might chime in as well with their experiences, 
but mine has been that thinning the tip rail will not make the mpc 
brighter at all, but it will certainly make it more responsive. And 
response will also be improved if you 
> make sure there is a clean angle between the tip rail and the 
beginning of the baffle. Taking off material here (in my experience) 
makes the mpc less prone to chirping and more free-blowing.
> 
> Toby
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: railwayreed 
>   To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 4:12 AM
>   Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very broad tip 
rail
> 
> 
>   Hi, I am new to this mouthpiece group, and have worked as a 
refacer for 
>   about6months. I recently recieved a Vandoren al3 mouthpiece from 
a 
>   classical saxophone player for refacing. The tiprail on this 
>   mouthpiece is very broad, nearby 2mm. The player has two more of 
this 
>   mouthpiece and the tiprail is the same on all of them. Does any 
of you 
>   out there know why this mothpc is designed this way? I got the 
mouthpc 
>   for refacing because of problems with the speed tongue technique, 
and 
>   wanted me to make it more responsive. My questione here is,can I 
make 
>   the tiprail slimmer without making the mouthpiece sound more 
bright? 
>   The mouthpiece has a stright baffel.I would be very happy if some 
of 
>   you more experienced refacers out there could give me some advice 
here
>   (sorry for my bad english,I am a norvegian, and I do not practice 
it so 
>   often) 
>   Thanks!
>

I have just started playing a Morgan J7 clarinet piece that I bought 
a while back...it is quite free-blowing and is duck-billed like a sax 
mouthpiece with an alto-sized tip (.060). 
jeff

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto123@...> wrote:
>
> The clarinet is a completely different animal than the sax, 
notwithstanding that both are single reed instruments. The physics of 
the two are quite different, but the upshot is that the clarinet 
blows nothing like a sax and never will. I wouldn't expect too much 
in the way of "more free-blowing" from a reface of a clarinet mpc, 
unless the rails are very uneven.
> 
> Toby
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Peter Healey 
>   To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 12:20 AM
>   Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very broad 
tip rail
> 
> 
> 
>   I am fairly inexperienced as a clarinet player (3 years or so) 
and certainly not a refacer but look at the posts with great interest.
>   Something Toby said was very interesting about modifying tip 
rails etc to get "less chirping and more free-blowing."
>   I have a few mpcs and in my view none are free blowing.Where 
would I send them for an assessment and possible re-working?
>   PeterH
>     ----- Original Message ----- 
>     From: Toby 
>     To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
>     Sent: 19 December 2006 14:53
>     Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very 
broad tip rail
> 
> 
> 
>     I hope some others might chime in as well with their 
experiences, but mine has been that thinning the tip rail will not 
make the mpc brighter at all, but it will certainly make it more 
responsive. And response will also be improved if you 
>     make sure there is a clean angle between the tip rail and the 
beginning of the baffle. Taking off material here (in my experience) 
makes the mpc less prone to chirping and more free-blowing.
> 
>     Toby
> 
> 
>       ----- Original Message ----- 
>       From: railwayreed 
>       To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
>       Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 4:12 AM
>       Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very broad 
tip rail
> 
> 
>       Hi, I am new to this mouthpiece group, and have worked as a 
refacer for 
>       about6months. I recently recieved a Vandoren al3 mouthpiece 
from a 
>       classical saxophone player for refacing. The tiprail on this 
>       mouthpiece is very broad, nearby 2mm. The player has two more 
of this 
>       mouthpiece and the tiprail is the same on all of them. Does 
any of you 
>       out there know why this mothpc is designed this way? I got 
the mouthpc 
>       for refacing because of problems with the speed tongue 
technique, and 
>       wanted me to make it more responsive. My questione here 
is,can I make 
>       the tiprail slimmer without making the mouthpiece sound more 
bright? 
>       The mouthpiece has a stright baffel.I would be very happy if 
some of 
>       you more experienced refacers out there could give me some 
advice here
>       (sorry for my bad english,I am a norvegian, and I do not 
practice it so 
>       often) 
>       Thanks! 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> 
> 
>     No virus found in this incoming message.
>     Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>     Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.24/592 - Release 
Date: 18/12/2006
> 
> 
>    
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
> 
> 
>   No virus found in this outgoing message.
>   Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>   Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.24/592 - Release Date: 
18/12/2006
>

Jeff,

How does the facing measure?  I plan to start working on some more 
clarinet pieces soon, and while I've noticed that my favorite pieces 
have a nearly flat section in the middle of the curve (with moderate tip 
openings around .045), Keith's recent post about very large tip (.072!!) 
clarinet pieces with radial curves has me intrigued.  Your Morgan is 
(conveniently for my purposes) right in between those two openings.

Dan T

sjrosner wrote:
>
> I have just started playing a Morgan J7 clarinet piece that I bought
> a while back...it is quite free-blowing and is duck-billed like a sax
> mouthpiece with an alto-sized tip (.060).
> jeff
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>, "Toby" <kymarto123@...> wrote:
> >
> > The clarinet is a completely different animal than the sax,
> notwithstanding that both are single reed instruments. The physics of
> the two are quite different, but the upshot is that the clarinet
> blows nothing like a sax and never will. I wouldn't expect too much
> in the way of "more free-blowing" from a reface of a clarinet mpc,
> unless the rails are very uneven.
> >
> > Toby
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Peter Healey
> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 12:20 AM
> > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very broad
> tip rail
> >
> >
> >
> > I am fairly inexperienced as a clarinet player (3 years or so)
> and certainly not a refacer but look at the posts with great interest.
> > Something Toby said was very interesting about modifying tip
> rails etc to get "less chirping and more free-blowing."
> > I have a few mpcs and in my view none are free blowing.Where
> would I send them for an assessment and possible re-working?
> > PeterH
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Toby
> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: 19 December 2006 14:53
> > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very
> broad tip rail
> >
> >
> >
> > I hope some others might chime in as well with their
> experiences, but mine has been that thinning the tip rail will not
> make the mpc brighter at all, but it will certainly make it more
> responsive. And response will also be improved if you
> > make sure there is a clean angle between the tip rail and the
> beginning of the baffle. Taking off material here (in my experience)
> makes the mpc less prone to chirping and more free-blowing.
> >
> > Toby
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: railwayreed
> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 4:12 AM
> > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very broad
> tip rail
> >
> >
> > Hi, I am new to this mouthpiece group, and have worked as a
> refacer for
> > about6months. I recently recieved a Vandoren al3 mouthpiece
> from a
> > classical saxophone player for refacing. The tiprail on this
> > mouthpiece is very broad, nearby 2mm. The player has two more
> of this
> > mouthpiece and the tiprail is the same on all of them. Does
> any of you
> > out there know why this mothpc is designed this way? I got
> the mouthpc
> > for refacing because of problems with the speed tongue
> technique, and
> > wanted me to make it more responsive. My questione here
> is,can I make
> > the tiprail slimmer without making the mouthpiece sound more
> bright?
> > The mouthpiece has a stright baffel.I would be very happy if
> some of
> > you more experienced refacers out there could give me some
> advice here
> > (sorry for my bad english,I am a norvegian, and I do not
> practice it so
> > often)
> > Thanks!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.24/592 - Release
> Date: 18/12/2006
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.24/592 - Release Date:
> 18/12/2006
> >
>
>  

I guess I wasn't clear. As long as the tip has an even, flat edge it doesn't need to be well defined at the back. What is important is that the area of the baffle just behind whatever is the tip rail drops away and leaves some room. I've found taking material away directly behind the tip rail generally helps response--on sax mpcs. This is less of an issue probably with clarinet pieces, since they have lower baffles to begin with generally. Having a defined tip rail is a kind of insurance--a thinner tip rail wears faster, and if and when the tip starts to become uneven there will be no material behind it that might be left to allow the reed to beat properly. 

Toby
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: sjrosner 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 5:24 AM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very broad tip rail


  Interesting, but I have noticed that the Phil Barone pieces do not 
  have a distinct tip rail, but rather 'slide' in to the tip smoothly 
  from the baffle. They don't seem to have a tendency to chirp though 
  and they are quite responsive. Any thoughts???

  jeff
  --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto123@...> wrote:
  >
  > I hope some others might chime in as well with their experiences, 
  but mine has been that thinning the tip rail will not make the mpc 
  brighter at all, but it will certainly make it more responsive. And 
  response will also be improved if you 
  > make sure there is a clean angle between the tip rail and the 
  beginning of the baffle. Taking off material here (in my experience) 
  makes the mpc less prone to chirping and more free-blowing.
  > 
  > Toby
  > 
  > 
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: railwayreed 
  > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  > Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 4:12 AM
  > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very broad tip 
  rail
  > 
  > 
  > Hi, I am new to this mouthpiece group, and have worked as a 
  refacer for 
  > about6months. I recently recieved a Vandoren al3 mouthpiece from 
  a 
  > classical saxophone player for refacing. The tiprail on this 
  > mouthpiece is very broad, nearby 2mm. The player has two more of 
  this 
  > mouthpiece and the tiprail is the same on all of them. Does any 
  of you 
  > out there know why this mothpc is designed this way? I got the 
  mouthpc 
  > for refacing because of problems with the speed tongue technique, 
  and 
  > wanted me to make it more responsive. My questione here is,can I 
  make 
  > the tiprail slimmer without making the mouthpiece sound more 
  bright? 
  > The mouthpiece has a stright baffel.I would be very happy if some 
  of 
  > you more experienced refacers out there could give me some advice 
  here
  > (sorry for my bad english,I am a norvegian, and I do not practice 
  it so 
  > often) 
  > Thanks!
  >



   

----- Original Message ----- 
From: sjrosner
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 5:26 AM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very broad tip rail


I have just started playing a Morgan J7 clarinet piece that I bought
a while back...it is quite free-blowing and is duck-billed like a sax
mouthpiece with an alto-sized tip (.060).
jeff

There is always a lot more resistance on the clarinet, and at a certain 
point more breath pressure does not lead to more volume like it does on a 
sax. This is not to say that some clarinet mpcs are not more free-blowing 
than others, but for people used to the sax the clarinet will almost always 
seem stuffy and resistant. If you're interested I've got the physics 
explanation somewhere, which I can dig up.

Toby 

Toby-

If you've got time, I'd love to find out the physics about the
differences in saxophone and clarinet.  I've had students ask me about
this and I just don't have as good of an answer as I'd like.

I assume that the cylindircal vs conical bore has some effect but it
seems there must be more to it  than that.

Thanks in advance!

Wil Swindler
www.wilswindler.com <http://www.wilswindler.com/>
www.singlereedconsultants.com <http://www.singlereedconsultants.com/>

The clarinet or sax reed is driven by the air vibrating up and down the tube.  The reed is open during the time a pressure wave is going past the reed, and starting down the tube.  The reed closes as a negative pressure is left in the mouthpiece, and greater pressure is in the mouth.
   
  Then the wave bounces off the other end (bell or open tone hole) and comes back up.  As it hits the reed, the pressure equalizes with that in the mouth, and the springiness of the reed opens it again.
   
  The reed is closed for approximately 180 degrees, during the negative half of the cycle, and is open for approximately 180 degrees during the positive half of the cycle.
   
  Closed is closed, and for that portion of the waveform the natural fundamental and overtones are shaping the wave form.
   
  During the open portion, the reed actually attempts to follow the waveform, starting and stopping momentarily on its way open on on the way to closing, with the various overtones, both odd and even, of the saxophone tone.  
   
  The sax tone is quite complex, and has both even and odd overtones.  What this means is that they add up to produce a waveform that is "sawtooth" in shape, roughly, but have some wiggles and bumps on there as well.
   
  The clarinet produces only odd overtones, and its waveform is a "squarewave".  Like a buttress shape.  This is a rapidly rising wave that is more or less flat on top, and falls rapidly flat on bottom, rises rapidly, flat on top, etc.
   
  So, for the clarinet, the reed snaps fully open, and slaps closed, following the upper half of that square waveform.  And this is partly the reason some other facing shapes work well for the clarinet but not the saxophone.  
   
  The saxophone needs that nice radial curve so that the reed can smootly close and open and follow the various wiggles of the sax waveform.
   
  The clarinet can use a radial curve, but also there is a facing that is basically just an angle, a flat section out toward the tip, with a blended area at the break so that the reed can hinge smootly.  This works because of the clarinet waveform, and also the shorter facing, and much closer tip used by the clarinet.
   
  For the saxophone, when a narrow tip opening is used, along with a very hard reed (Rascher, Caravan, etc), there is only room for the reed to open and close.  Not much space for it to follow those other wiggles in the waveform.  This is why these type mouthpieces (long facing, narrow tip, hard reed) have a tone more akin to the clarinet... a higher percentage of odd overtones, at least for the half of the waveform where the reed is open.
   
  Paul Coats

Wil Swindler <wjswindler@...> wrote:
            Toby-
  If you've got time, I'd love to find out the physics about the differences in saxophone and clarinet.  I've had students ask me about this and I just don't have as good of an answer as I'd like.
  I assume that the cylindircal vs conical bore has some effect but it seems there must be more to it  than that.
  Thanks in advance!
  Wil Swindler
www.wilswindler.com
www.singlereedconsultants.com   
 
  

         


Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
		http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
 __________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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Wow, Paul - thanks for the great info!  Your posts are always an 
education.

Wil Swindler
www.wilswindler.com
www.singlereedconsultants.com

[ Attachment content not displayed ]

The sax reed actually starts and stops on its way to full open and as it is closing, corresponding to the overtones.  It does not smoothly open and close.
   
  The vibration of the air column IS the dominant cause of the tone, and the reed follows the vibrations of the air column.  But the resulting wave shape is far different between the two instruments.
   
  Paul

Bob Phillips <rwphillipsidaho@...> wrote:
          i'm surprised to hear that the clarinet reed flaps, while a sax reed "waves."  How do we know that?

A sax has a conical bore like an oboe and can resonate at even as well as odd harmonics of the fundamental.  I thought that would be the dominant cause of a difference in sound and the coupling between the reed and the air columns above and below the cane. 

Bob Phillips


         


Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
		http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
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omorrow is a 'shop day', I'll put it on the list.
jeff
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Dan Torosian <dtorosian@...> wrote:
>
> Jeff,
> 
> How does the facing measure?  I plan to start working on some more 
> clarinet pieces soon, and while I've noticed that my favorite pieces 
> have a nearly flat section in the middle of the curve (with moderate
tip 
> openings around .045), Keith's recent post about very large tip
(.072!!) 
> clarinet pieces with radial curves has me intrigued.  Your Morgan is 
> (conveniently for my purposes) right in between those two openings.
> 
> Dan T
> 
> sjrosner wrote:
> >
> > I have just started playing a Morgan J7 clarinet piece that I bought
> > a while back...it is quite free-blowing and is duck-billed like a sax
> > mouthpiece with an alto-sized tip (.060).
> > jeff
> >
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> > <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>, "Toby" <kymarto123@> wrote:
> > >
> > > The clarinet is a completely different animal than the sax,
> > notwithstanding that both are single reed instruments. The physics of
> > the two are quite different, but the upshot is that the clarinet
> > blows nothing like a sax and never will. I wouldn't expect too much
> > in the way of "more free-blowing" from a reface of a clarinet mpc,
> > unless the rails are very uneven.
> > >
> > > Toby
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Peter Healey
> > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> > <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 12:20 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very broad
> > tip rail
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I am fairly inexperienced as a clarinet player (3 years or so)
> > and certainly not a refacer but look at the posts with great interest.
> > > Something Toby said was very interesting about modifying tip
> > rails etc to get "less chirping and more free-blowing."
> > > I have a few mpcs and in my view none are free blowing.Where
> > would I send them for an assessment and possible re-working?
> > > PeterH
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Toby
> > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> > <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: 19 December 2006 14:53
> > > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very
> > broad tip rail
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I hope some others might chime in as well with their
> > experiences, but mine has been that thinning the tip rail will not
> > make the mpc brighter at all, but it will certainly make it more
> > responsive. And response will also be improved if you
> > > make sure there is a clean angle between the tip rail and the
> > beginning of the baffle. Taking off material here (in my experience)
> > makes the mpc less prone to chirping and more free-blowing.
> > >
> > > Toby
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: railwayreed
> > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> > <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 4:12 AM
> > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very broad
> > tip rail
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi, I am new to this mouthpiece group, and have worked as a
> > refacer for
> > > about6months. I recently recieved a Vandoren al3 mouthpiece
> > from a
> > > classical saxophone player for refacing. The tiprail on this
> > > mouthpiece is very broad, nearby 2mm. The player has two more
> > of this
> > > mouthpiece and the tiprail is the same on all of them. Does
> > any of you
> > > out there know why this mothpc is designed this way? I got
> > the mouthpc
> > > for refacing because of problems with the speed tongue
> > technique, and
> > > wanted me to make it more responsive. My questione here
> > is,can I make
> > > the tiprail slimmer without making the mouthpiece sound more
> > bright?
> > > The mouthpiece has a stright baffel.I would be very happy if
> > some of
> > > you more experienced refacers out there could give me some
> > advice here
> > > (sorry for my bad english,I am a norvegian, and I do not
> > practice it so
> > > often)
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> > >
> > >
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.24/592 - Release
> > Date: 18/12/2006
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > ----------
> > >
> > >
> > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.24/592 - Release Date:
> > 18/12/2006
> > >
> >
> >
>

Yes, it surely doesn't blow like any alto sax I would want to play,
but it is definitely 'free' for a clarinet.
jeff

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto123@...> wrote:
>
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: sjrosner
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 5:26 AM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very broad
tip rail
> 
> 
> I have just started playing a Morgan J7 clarinet piece that I bought
> a while back...it is quite free-blowing and is duck-billed like a sax
> mouthpiece with an alto-sized tip (.060).
> jeff
> 
> There is always a lot more resistance on the clarinet, and at a certain 
> point more breath pressure does not lead to more volume like it does
on a 
> sax. This is not to say that some clarinet mpcs are not more
free-blowing 
> than others, but for people used to the sax the clarinet will almost
always 
> seem stuffy and resistant. If you're interested I've got the physics 
> explanation somewhere, which I can dig up.
> 
> Toby
>

I posted the facings of my Morgan RM10 and J7 at:
http://www.shmuelyosef.com/Saxophones/ClarinetMouthpieces/MorganFacings.htm

jeff

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Dan Torosian <dtorosian@...> wrote:
>
> Jeff,
> 
> How does the facing measure?  I plan to start working on some more 
> clarinet pieces soon, and while I've noticed that my favorite pieces 
> have a nearly flat section in the middle of the curve (with moderate
tip 
> openings around .045), Keith's recent post about very large tip
(.072!!) 
> clarinet pieces with radial curves has me intrigued.  Your Morgan is 
> (conveniently for my purposes) right in between those two openings.
> 
> Dan T
> 
> sjrosner wrote:
> >
> > I have just started playing a Morgan J7 clarinet piece that I bought
> > a while back...it is quite free-blowing and is duck-billed like a sax
> > mouthpiece with an alto-sized tip (.060).
> > jeff
> >
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> > <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>, "Toby" <kymarto123@> wrote:
> > >
> > > The clarinet is a completely different animal than the sax,
> > notwithstanding that both are single reed instruments. The physics of
> > the two are quite different, but the upshot is that the clarinet
> > blows nothing like a sax and never will. I wouldn't expect too much
> > in the way of "more free-blowing" from a reface of a clarinet mpc,
> > unless the rails are very uneven.
> > >
> > > Toby
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Peter Healey
> > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> > <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 12:20 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very broad
> > tip rail
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I am fairly inexperienced as a clarinet player (3 years or so)
> > and certainly not a refacer but look at the posts with great interest.
> > > Something Toby said was very interesting about modifying tip
> > rails etc to get "less chirping and more free-blowing."
> > > I have a few mpcs and in my view none are free blowing.Where
> > would I send them for an assessment and possible re-working?
> > > PeterH
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Toby
> > > To: MouthpieceWork@...m 
> > <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: 19 December 2006 14:53
> > > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very
> > broad tip rail
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I hope some others might chime in as well with their
> > experiences, but mine has been that thinning the tip rail will not
> > make the mpc brighter at all, but it will certainly make it more
> > responsive. And response will also be improved if you
> > > make sure there is a clean angle between the tip rail and the
> > beginning of the baffle. Taking off material here (in my experience)
> > makes the mpc less prone to chirping and more free-blowing.
> > >
> > > Toby
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: railwayreed
> > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> > <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 4:12 AM
> > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Vandoren al3 mouthpiece, very broad
> > tip rail
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi, I am new to this mouthpiece group, and have worked as a
> > refacer for
> > > about6months. I recently recieved a Vandoren al3 mouthpiece
> > from a
> > > classical saxophone player for refacing. The tiprail on this
> > > mouthpiece is very broad, nearby 2mm. The player has two more
> > of this
> > > mouthpiece and the tiprail is the same on all of them. Does
> > any of you
> > > out there know why this mothpc is designed this way? I got
> > the mouthpc
> > > for refacing because of problems with the speed tongue
> > technique, and
> > > wanted me to make it more responsive. My questione here
> > is,can I make
> > > the tiprail slimmer without making the mouthpiece sound more
> > bright?
> > > The mouthpiece has a stright baffel.I would be very happy if
> > some of
> > > you more experienced refacers out there could give me some
> > advice here
> > > (sorry for my bad english,I am a norvegian, and I do not
> > practice it so
> > > often)
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> > >
> > >
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.24/592 - Release
> > Date: 18/12/2006
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > ----------
> > >
> > >
> > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.24/592 - Release Date:
> > 18/12/2006
> > >
> >
> >
>

Could you add the tip openings and the tip rail thickness?  Also if you
measure the tip inside or outside the tip rail.

--- sjrosner <sjrosner@...> wrote:

> I posted the facings of my Morgan RM10 and J7 at:
>
http://www.shmuelyosef.com/Saxophones/ClarinetMouthpieces/MorganFacings.htm
> 


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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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Done...
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...>
wrote:
>
> Could you add the tip openings and the tip rail thickness?  Also if you
> measure the tip inside or outside the tip rail.
> 
> --- sjrosner <sjrosner@...> wrote:
> 
> > I posted the facings of my Morgan RM10 and J7 at:
> >
>
http://www.shmuelyosef.com/Saxophones/ClarinetMouthpieces/MorganFacings.htm
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>