I was at a meeting with a company developing a new breathing mask 
today.  They are using Stereolithography (SLA) to produce prototype 
component parts direct from CAD design files.  

SLA uses a UV laser to cure a liquid epoxy resin. The laser 
describes a shape for layers approx 0.1mm thick and these layers 
build to form an object as a build table drops within a tank. The 
resulting  object is semi-transparent and generally has an off-white 
or yellow colour to which different finishes can be applied.

I was really impressed by the quality and finish of the prototype 
parts - they even had threads formed directly, and sealing faces.  
Apparently any shape that can be designed by CAD can be made, but 
there are minimum wall thicknesses and some (predictable) shrinkage.

Apparently the cost of these particular parts is surprisingly low 
(no figures yet) because the company has good contacts with the 
prototyping workshop.

Has anyone though of using these technologies to prototype or even 
series manufacture saxophone mouthpieces ?

I've just got an excellent Dukoff lucite (clear plastic) mouthpiece 
and it looks as though it would be quite easy to make something 
similar with SLA.

All the best

Rhys

I have investigated this with a company called QuickParts.  But 1-2
prototypes was on the order of $400.  

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury 
<kwbradbury@...> wrote:
>
> I have investigated this with a company called QuickParts.  But 1-2
> prototypes was on the order of $400.  
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

It looks like I might be able to get one or two prototypes made for 
£30 (about US$50) or even for free if I can do them on the back of 
another batch of components.  I may have to say that they are "air 
nozzles" for use in a pneumatic device, but that's not completely 
untrue !

I'm thinking of starting with a fairly basic design (tenor sax, 
straight sidewalls, step baffle).  Does anyone have any tips on how 
to generate the CAD file or even some basic dimensions like bore 
internal diameter, table angle to bore, chamber profile etc ?

All the best

Rhys

> I'm thinking of starting with a fairly basic design (tenor sax, 
> straight sidewalls, step baffle).  Does anyone have any tips on how 
> to generate the CAD file or even some basic dimensions like bore 
> internal diameter, table angle to bore, chamber profile etc ?

This can be a lot of work, depending on your level of proficiency with 3D
CAD software like Inventor or Solid Works.  I sat down with a blank in hand
and a pair of digital calipers and copied it.  Sometimes you need to try
several different drawing techniques before you get what you want.  The
beak and chamber usually require some fancy geometric sweeps along
user-defined axes and/or planes.  Usually it takes a 3 day course to learn
the basics.  Then another 3 day course to pick up some advanced stuff.  But
you can probably teach yourself the advanced stuff out of a book once you
get started.  I was able to teach myself 2D CAD without a course.  But not
3D.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury 
<kwbradbury@...> wrote:
>
> > I'm thinking of starting with a fairly basic design (tenor sax, 
> > straight sidewalls, step baffle).  Does anyone have any tips on 
how 
> > to generate the CAD file or even some basic dimensions like bore 
> > internal diameter, table angle to bore, chamber profile etc ?
> 
> This can be a lot of work, depending on your level of proficiency 
with 3D
> CAD software like Inventor or Solid Works.  I sat down with a 
blank in hand
> and a pair of digital calipers and copied it.  Sometimes you need 
to try
> several different drawing techniques before you get what you 
want.  The
> beak and chamber usually require some fancy geometric sweeps along
> user-defined axes and/or planes.  Usually it takes a 3 day course 
to learn
> the basics.  Then another 3 day course to pick up some advanced 
stuff.  But
> you can probably teach yourself the advanced stuff out of a book 
once you
> get started.  I was able to teach myself 2D CAD without a course.  
But not
> 3D.
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
I think that's true - there is a lot of Software learning to do.  
Luckily for me, a friend of mine uses SolidWorks daily and is going 
to help me do the first few models.  He was estimating about an hour 
to do a model, but I don't think he has any appreciation of the 
different parts of a mouthpiece design and the way they interact.

I suppose that once you have done the modeling for a particular size 
of sax mouthpiece, say tenor, then you'd only have to work on the 
baffle, chamber and throat region to make a new design: I presume 
you can just re-use the outside, the facing and rails time and again.

I seem to remember seeing a CAD design for a prototype by some 
designer, possibly Steve Goodson, on the web a while back.  Maybe 
I'll look for that to get some ideas.

All the best

Rhys

3-D printing is something I have recent experience with.  http://www.zcorp.com/  I have made 5 different mouthpiece designs using this technology.  It is really amazing.  Something like the movie �The Fifth Element� where they reproduced the star of the movie Milla Jovovich layer at a time�
   
  Anyway, I can say from first hand experience that it is a remarkable and highly useful tool.  I can envision a time (in the very near future) when a customer comes to the mouthpiece maker, and they sit down together in front of the computer and create their design using SolidWorks, then simply print it out into a 3-D mouthpiece.  It is very possible to do it right now, but I don�t have the money for the machine (about 20K).  Also the material resonance is very good, but not the same or as colorful sounding as my own rubber.  Interestingly the material is about the correct hardness however!  It prints in white, but a surface color can be added if wished.  I tried black of course, but next time I will probably go with white, because when I work on the mouthpiece, the black surface layer is easily removed leaving a combo-white-black mouthpiece.  This can cause a weird optical illusion when sighting the mouthpiece for additional alterations.
   
  My 3-D printouts in fact play very well, but I did have to reface them.  They came out way too open and the bores were a bit too small.  But still, I am very happy with the results.  I paid $400 for five different printouts, coming from five different design files.
   
  The primary software to be used is SolidWorks.  http://www.solidworks.com/ The version I use costs about $7000 and is the industry standard. This is the middle level and a lower end version costs about $4000 I think.  SolidWorks has very helpful tutorials built into the program and they offer a free three month trial that includes the tutorial sessions on an older version.  I would highly recommend everyone to give this a try.  It is an amazing, powerful program.
   
  In the end, this may seem like a lot of money, but the $400 I spent to make five different designs is much more affordable than making a bunch of much more expensive finished prototypes with the CNC process.  Where the CNC shines is in mass production of a mature design.  The rapid prototyping is great to experiment and learn from ones errors.  Perfecting ones design is a natural process of R&D and with this rather new technology, it affords me, the designer a lot more room to experiment.
   
  Good luck and have fun!


rhysonsax <rhysonsax@...> wrote:          I was at a meeting with a company developing a new breathing mask 
today. They are using Stereolithography (SLA) to produce prototype 
component parts direct from CAD design files. 

SLA uses a UV laser to cure a liquid epoxy resin. The laser 
describes a shape for layers approx 0.1mm thick and these layers 
build to form an object as a build table drops within a tank. The 
resulting object is semi-transparent and generally has an off-white 
or yellow colour to which different finishes can be applied.

I was really impressed by the quality and finish of the prototype 
parts - they even had threads formed directly, and sealing faces. 
Apparently any shape that can be designed by CAD can be made, but 
there are minimum wall thicknesses and some (predictable) shrinkage.

Apparently the cost of these particular parts is surprisingly low 
(no figures yet) because the company has good contacts with the 
prototyping workshop.

Has anyone though of using these technologies to prototype or even 
series manufacture saxophone mouthpieces ?

I've just got an excellent Dukoff lucite (clear plastic) mouthpiece 
and it looks as though it would be quite easy to make something 
similar with SLA.

All the best

Rhys



         



 		
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the  new Yahoo.com 

www.zcorp.com
  www.solidworks.com
   
  The above links were not live on my last email so I wanted to try again.  
  

Brad Behn <bradbehn@...> wrote:
            3-D printing is something I have recent experience with.  http://www.zcorp.com/  I have made 5 different mouthpiece designs using this technology.  It is really amazing.  Something like the movie �The Fifth Element� where they reproduced the star of the movie Milla Jovovich layer at a time�
  
  Anyway, I can say from first hand experience that it is a remarkable and highly useful tool.  I can envision a time (in the very near future) when a customer comes to the mouthpiece maker, and they sit down together in front of the computer and create their design using SolidWorks, then simply print it out into a 3-D mouthpiece.  It is very possible to do it right now, but I don�t have the money for the machine (about 20K).  Also the material resonance is very good, but not the same or as colorful sounding as my own rubber.  Interestingly the material is about the correct hardness however!  It prints in white, but a surface color can be added if wished.  I tried black of course, but next time I will probably go with white, because when I work on the mouthpiece, the black surface layer is easily removed leaving a combo-white-black mouthpiece.  This can cause a weird optical illusion when sighting the mouthpiece for additional alterations.
  
  My 3-D printouts in fact play very well, but I did have to reface them.  They came out way too open and the bores were a bit too small.  But still, I am very happy with the results.  I paid $400 for five different printouts, coming from five different design files.
  
  The primary software to be used is SolidWorks.  http://www.solidworks.com/ The version I use costs about $7000 and is the industry standard. This is the middle level and a lower end version costs about $4000 I think.  SolidWorks has very helpful tutorials built into the program and they offer a free three month trial that includes the tutorial sessions on an older version.  I would highly recommend everyone to give this a try.  It is an amazing, powerful program.
  
  In the end, this may seem like a lot of money, but the $400 I spent to make five different designs is much more affordable than making a bunch of much more expensive finished prototypes with the CNC process.  Where the CNC shines is in mass production of a mature design.  The rapid prototyping is great to experiment and learn from ones errors.  Perfecting ones design is a natural process of R&D and with this rather new technology, it affords me, the designer a lot more room to experiment.
   
  Good luck and have fun!


rhysonsax <rhysonsax@...> wrote:       I was at a meeting with a company developing a new breathing mask 
today. They are using Stereolithography (SLA) to produce prototype 
component parts direct from CAD design files. 

SLA uses a UV laser to cure a liquid epoxy resin. The laser 
describes a shape for layers approx 0.1mm thick and these layers 
build to form an object as a build table drops within a tank. The 
resulting object is semi-transparent and generally has an off-white 
or yellow colour to which different finishes can be applied.

I was really impressed by the quality and finish of the prototype 
parts - they even had threads formed directly, and sealing faces. 
Apparently any shape that can be designed by CAD can be made, but 
there are minimum wall thicknesses and some (predictable) shrinkage.

Apparently the cost of these particular parts is surprisingly low 
(no figures yet) because the company has good contacts with the 
prototyping workshop.

Has anyone though of using these technologies to prototype or even 
series manufacture saxophone mouthpieces ?

I've just got an excellent Dukoff lucite (clear plastic) mouthpiece 
and it looks as though it would be quite easy to make something 
similar with SLA.

All the best

Rhys






    
---------------------------------
  Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com   

         



 		
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the  new Yahoo.com 

Digital Calipers, Bore gauge (telescoping gauge), Protractor, Concept, Pad of paper and pencil is needed to get started.  
   
  Indeed it is a complex task to go from a 2-D drawing to a Solid Model, but with the help of a pro, you should be able to do it.
   
  I also found that there are very complex surfacing requirements and frequent times where a B-spline is used to draw the necessary curve.  For example, the body of a mouthpiece has a curve from tip to tenon, and that curve must be slightly altered in order to keep the side rails of even thickness, when making a facing that is more or less open.  Addidionally, the bore of a mouthpiece is not just a simple cone, but rather a complex series of poly-cylindrics that must be plotted out.  The baffle shape with its double concavity and or rollover at the tip requires complex surfacing that can be difficult at first.  But it can be done.  


Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:          > I'm thinking of starting with a fairly basic design (tenor sax, 
> straight sidewalls, step baffle). Does anyone have any tips on how 
> to generate the CAD file or even some basic dimensions like bore 
> internal diameter, table angle to bore, chamber profile etc ?

This can be a lot of work, depending on your level of proficiency with 3D
CAD software like Inventor or Solid Works. I sat down with a blank in hand
and a pair of digital calipers and copied it. Sometimes you need to try
several different drawing techniques before you get what you want. The
beak and chamber usually require some fancy geometric sweeps along
user-defined axes and/or planes. Usually it takes a 3 day course to learn
the basics. Then another 3 day course to pick up some advanced stuff. But
you can probably teach yourself the advanced stuff out of a book once you
get started. I was able to teach myself 2D CAD without a course. But not
3D.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


         



 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

I have recently tried an old Selmer series 10 from the 70's I think.  Any one out there who can help educate me about these fine instruments?  I am aware that the older Seris 9 horns had bigger bores, but I am interested to know when the bore on Selmer clarinets got smaller.
  Thanks,
  Brad 
  www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
  
 

 		
---------------------------------
 All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

>  Also
> the material resonance is very good, but not the same or as colorful
> sounding as my own rubber.  Interestingly the material is about the
> correct hardness however!  

Brad, what is the material?  

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

Hi Brad - I can contribute a bit of Selmer-Paris bore history.  My  [fine] CT 
[Centered Tone] of 1954 vintage is a 15.0 mm bore cyl., as is my RI  [Radio 
Improved] Full Boehm's barrel [metal] insert [! !, have never seen  this 
before] of 1932.  I have heard that the ?several? series 9's were "big  bores" also, 
others will know. A good friend inherited a 10G, which I recall  measuring UJ 
top and bottom at about 14.8 mm, if others say diff.,at 87 my  memory isn't 
the greatest !.  We've had discussions on the BBoard, so check  their archives 
for better info.  Regards, Don

Hello 
I think selmer started to built with a smaller bore on the 9* model (the
classical model, the 9 beeing made for jazz).
I have several series 9 from the 60¹s and one of them had a 9* barrel that
has a smaller bore. I also have a early 80¹s 9* that definitively have a
smaller bore.
Big bore clarinets are fun to play, but they play much different than the
modern ones.
Regards 
Francois

> Hi Brad - I can contribute a bit of Selmer-Paris bore history.  My [fine] CT
> [Centered Tone] of 1954 vintage is a 15.0 mm bore cyl., as is my RI [Radio
> Improved] Full Boehm's barrel [metal] insert [! !, have never seen this
> before] of 1932.  I have heard that the ?several? series 9's were "big bores"
> also, others will know. A good friend inherited a 10G, which I recall
> measuring UJ top and bottom at about 14.8 mm, if others say diff.,at 87 my
> memory isn't the greatest !.  We've had discussions on the BBoard, so check
> their archives for better info.  Regards, Don
>   

Hi Guys,
   
  To the best of my knowledge the series nine had a .584 bore and the series 10 a .577.
James
dberger19@... wrote:
            Hi Brad - I can contribute a bit of Selmer-Paris bore history.  My [fine] CT [Centered Tone] of 1954 vintage is a 15.0 mm bore cyl., as is my RI [Radio Improved] Full Boehm's barrel [metal] insert [! !, have never seen this before] of 1932.  I have heard that the ?several? series 9's were "big bores" also, others will know. A good friend inherited a 10G, which I recall measuring UJ top and bottom at about 14.8 mm, if others say diff.,at 87 my memory isn't the greatest !.  We've had discussions on the BBoard, so check their archives for better info.  Regards, Don
  

         

I actually don't know the exact material but I think it is some kind of epoxy-resin
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_printing
  http://3-dprinting.com/tech.aspx
   
  Brad
www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
  
Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
          > Also
> the material resonance is very good, but not the same or as colorful
> sounding as my own rubber. Interestingly the material is about the
> correct hardness however! 

Brad, what is the material? 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


         

 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[ Attachment content not displayed ]

I thought everyone would be interested.
This past weekend I picked up a dial tip gauge from PM
Woodwind Repair.  They are making and selling them. 
They run about $50, call them for the exact price.

PM Woodwinds
847-869-7049
contact@...

David Schottle

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com