Regarding mouthpieces that have a slight concavity of the table: I came 
across some information that casts some light on why this might be
desirable.

In his book "The Saxophone Reed", Ray Reed claims that after a reed has been
played a while, the edges of the underside of the reed begin to curve away
from the table, causing the reed to develop a slight convex cross-section.
He calls this "the primary warp", which he deems a natural consequence of
the reed being set in vibration. This convexity supposedly starts to appear
after the reed has been warmed up by playing for 5-10 minutes. This is why
reeds often improve after the bottom is re-flattened on a file or sandpaper.

This also suggests a reason why a slightly concave mouthpiece table might be
helpful - as the reed warms up, it will remain adequately seated.

His discussion pertains to cane, which I no longer use. I haven't yet
attempted to verify this observation on Fibracell reeds, but I think it
would be a worthwhile experiment to carry out both on cane and on the
Fibracells; i.e. to examine the cross-sectional flatness of the bottom of a
reed, play for 10 minutes, and then re-examine.

I suspect that this warpage might be greater along the actual vibrating part
of the reed, and become less pronounced at further distances towards the
heel - just a guess at this point.  (If Ray Reed has made this suggestion in
his book, I haven't seen it yet.)

A consequence of re-flattening the reed bottom will be that when the reed is
"cold", in what Mr. Reed calls its "static shape", the bottom of the reed
will become slightly concave; it winds up flat after it has warmed up to its
"dynamic shape."

As to the claim that the ligature will hold the reed flat, I'm doubtful that
most ligatures are applies tightly enough; but perhaps a ligature that
applied pressure along the outside edges of the reed would have certain
advantages according to this theory.

Barry



> I recently greatly improved a HR link 8 by doing nothing apart from
> flattening the table and *barely* retouching the rails. The "hollow"
> as you're calling it was so severe that the midpoint of the rails and
> very end of the heel formed a visible arc (I could easily slip a
> .0015" feeler through under the table) when the mouthpiece was pressed
> to glass.
>
> Prior to flattening, I noticed that my reeds would give out after only
> an hour or so on this mouthpiece. Also, there was a noticeable warp in
> the edges of the reed at about the point where the rails pushed
> against it before curving away.
>
> After flattening, the rails had significant flat spots from the
> flattening, so I used some 1500 grit lightly to ease the beginning of
> the curve. The tone and stability is a little better, and the reeds
> are lasting MUCH longer. It's a little brighter because some of the
> openness is gone due to losing the "hump" off the side rails.
>
> Is this a unique experience?
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Edward McLean" <ewmclean@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Barry Levine"
>> <barrylevine@> wrote:
>> >
>> > Keith wrote:
>> >
>> > > The concavity from mass production methods can be seen in modern
>> Link STMs.
>> > >  Other makes have it too.  These tables are concave with a high
> heel.
>> > > These tables are not flat around the perimeter where the reed
>> should be
>> > > sealed.
>> >
>> > I noticed a concavity like this on my Ponzol soprano HR mouthpiece.
>> It could
>>  > be seen by looking at the side profile of the mouthpiece. I wrote
>> to Peter
>> > Ponzol inquiring about this, although I only described it as a "slight
>> > concavity" of the table.
>>
> **************************************************************************
>>
>>   The idea that the hollow on a table enables reed expansion when wet
>> due to osmosis, seems to me questionable. The stock is a long way from
>> the wet tip end.
>>
>> Soaking the entire reed before use will produce this expansion, but I
>> have yet to see a reed, wet in this area after playing.
>>
>> A reed cannot push away from a flat table, if held against that table
>> by the ligature, which will also resist migration of moisture by
>> constriction.
>>
>>   If there is no hollow, it cannot swell.
>>     Do we really want it to ?                    Eddie
>>
>>
> ****************************************************************************
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > He graciously, replied, albeit briefly, implying that the
> concavity was
>> > deliberate
>> >
>> > > When a reed gets wet it tends to swell,  if it doesn't have
>> someplace to go
>> > > it will push away from the table.
>> >
>> > (that was all he wrote)
>> >
>> > I use Fibracells, which don't swell AFAIK. Because at the time that
>> > particular mouthpiece seemed to be playing less well (purchased new
>> about
>> > 2-3 years earlier), I wondered if I was seeing some dimensional
>> instability.
>> > (I also later found some rail asymmetry.) In any case, I flattened
>> the table
>> > by taking down the heel, which seemed to improve things.
>> >
>> > Barry
>> >

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Barry Levine"
<barrylevine@...> wrote:
>
> Regarding mouthpieces that have a slight concavity of the table: I came 
> across some information that casts some light on why this might be
> desirable.
> 
> In his book "The Saxophone Reed", Ray Reed claims that after a reed
has been
> played a while, the edges of the underside of the reed begin to
curve away
> from the table, causing the reed to develop a slight convex
cross-section.
> He calls this "the primary warp", which he deems a natural
consequence of
> the reed being set in vibration. This convexity supposedly starts to
appear
> after the reed has been warmed up by playing for 5-10 minutes. This
is why  
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I came across mention that Meyer 'Truflex' mouthpieces in the 40's
were made with a deliberate hollow on the table.
They were unpopular and discontinued.

I feel that any curvature across the reed will have a damping effect
on lengthwise vibrations. Having said that, the lip pressure on the
heart of the reed must give a curving tendency across the reed , all
the way to the tip.
This is a long way from the table of course.
Perhaps a curve on the table will match the curve on the facing area
of the reed in its playing condition.
I am out of my depth here, but can't help wondering why harmonica
reeds are not curved.
It also means synthetic reeds might not curve so much and therefore
vibrate differently from wet swollen cane.      Eddie
 
> reeds often improve after the bottom is re-flattened on a file or
sandpaper.
> 
> This also suggests a reason why a slightly concave mouthpiece table
might be
> helpful - as the reed warms up, it will remain adequately seated.
> 
> His discussion pertains to cane, which I no longer use. I haven't yet
> attempted to verify this observation on Fibracell reeds, but I think it
> would be a worthwhile experiment to carry out both on cane and on the
> Fibracells; i.e. to examine the cross-sectional flatness of the
bottom of a
> reed, play for 10 minutes, and then re-examine.
> 
> I suspect that this warpage might be greater along the actual
vibrating part
> of the reed, and become less pronounced at further distances towards the
> heel - just a guess at this point.  (If Ray Reed has made this
suggestion in
> his book, I haven't seen it yet.)
> 
> A consequence of re-flattening the reed bottom will be that when the
reed is
> "cold", in what Mr. Reed calls its "static shape", the bottom of the
reed
> will become slightly concave; it winds up flat after it has warmed
up to its
> "dynamic shape."
> 
> As to the claim that the ligature will hold the reed flat, I'm
doubtful that
> most ligatures are applies tightly enough; but perhaps a ligature that
> applied pressure along the outside edges of the reed would have certain
> advantages according to this theory.
> 
> Barry
> 
> 
> 
> > I recently greatly improved a HR link 8 by doing nothing apart from
> > flattening the table and *barely* retouching the rails. The "hollow"
> > as you're calling it was so severe that the midpoint of the rails and
> > very end of the heel formed a visible arc (I could easily slip a
> > .0015" feeler through under the table) when the mouthpiece was pressed
> > to glass.
> >
> > Prior to flattening, I noticed that my reeds would give out after only
> > an hour or so on this mouthpiece. Also, there was a noticeable warp in
> > the edges of the reed at about the point where the rails pushed
> > against it before curving away.
> >
> > After flattening, the rails had significant flat spots from the
> > flattening, so I used some 1500 grit lightly to ease the beginning of
> > the curve. The tone and stability is a little better, and the reeds
> > are lasting MUCH longer. It's a little brighter because some of the
> > openness is gone due to losing the "hump" off the side rails.
> >
> > Is this a unique experience?
> >
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Edward McLean" <ewmclean@>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Barry Levine"
> >> <barrylevine@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Keith wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > The concavity from mass production methods can be seen in modern
> >> Link STMs.
> >> > >  Other makes have it too.  These tables are concave with a high
> > heel.
> >> > > These tables are not flat around the perimeter where the reed
> >> should be
> >> > > sealed.
> >> >
> >> > I noticed a concavity like this on my Ponzol soprano HR mouthpiece.
> >> It could
> >>  > be seen by looking at the side profile of the mouthpiece. I wrote
> >> to Peter
> >> > Ponzol inquiring about this, although I only described it as a
"slight
> >> > concavity" of the table.
> >>
> >
**************************************************************************
> >>
> >>   The idea that the hollow on a table enables reed expansion when wet
> >> due to osmosis, seems to me questionable. The stock is a long way
from
> >> the wet tip end.
> >>
> >> Soaking the entire reed before use will produce this expansion, but I
> >> have yet to see a reed, wet in this area after playing.
> >>
> >> A reed cannot push away from a flat table, if held against that table
> >> by the ligature, which will also resist migration of moisture by
> >> constriction.
> >>
> >>   If there is no hollow, it cannot swell.
> >>     Do we really want it to ?                    Eddie
> >>
> >>
> >
****************************************************************************
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > He graciously, replied, albeit briefly, implying that the
> > concavity was
> >> > deliberate
> >> >
> >> > > When a reed gets wet it tends to swell,  if it doesn't have
> >> someplace to go
> >> > > it will push away from the table.
> >> >
> >> > (that was all he wrote)
> >> >
> >> > I use Fibracells, which don't swell AFAIK. Because at the time that
> >> > particular mouthpiece seemed to be playing less well (purchased new
> >> about
> >> > 2-3 years earlier), I wondered if I was seeing some dimensional
> >> instability.
> >> > (I also later found some rail asymmetry.) In any case, I flattened
> >> the table
> >> > by taking down the heel, which seemed to improve things.
> >> >
> >> > Barry
> >> >
>

Interestingly, the traditional 2-screw ligatures primarily press the
edge of the reed down against the table.
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Barry Levine"
<barrylevine@...> wrote:
>
> Regarding mouthpieces that have a slight concavity of the table: I came 
> across some information that casts some light on why this might be
> desirable.
> 
> In his book "The Saxophone Reed", Ray Reed claims that after a reed
has been
> played a while, the edges of the underside of the reed begin to
curve away
> from the table, causing the reed to develop a slight convex
cross-section.
> He calls this "the primary warp", which he deems a natural
consequence of
> the reed being set in vibration. This convexity supposedly starts to
appear
> after the reed has been warmed up by playing for 5-10 minutes. This
is why
> reeds often improve after the bottom is re-flattened on a file or
sandpaper.
> 
> This also suggests a reason why a slightly concave mouthpiece table
might be
> helpful - as the reed warms up, it will remain adequately seated.
> 
> His discussion pertains to cane, which I no longer use. I haven't yet
> attempted to verify this observation on Fibracell reeds, but I think it
> would be a worthwhile experiment to carry out both on cane and on the
> Fibracells; i.e. to examine the cross-sectional flatness of the
bottom of a
> reed, play for 10 minutes, and then re-examine.
> 
> I suspect that this warpage might be greater along the actual
vibrating part
> of the reed, and become less pronounced at further distances towards the
> heel - just a guess at this point.  (If Ray Reed has made this
suggestion in
> his book, I haven't seen it yet.)
> 
> A consequence of re-flattening the reed bottom will be that when the
reed is
> "cold", in what Mr. Reed calls its "static shape", the bottom of the
reed
> will become slightly concave; it winds up flat after it has warmed
up to its
> "dynamic shape."
> 
> As to the claim that the ligature will hold the reed flat, I'm
doubtful that
> most ligatures are applies tightly enough; but perhaps a ligature that
> applied pressure along the outside edges of the reed would have certain
> advantages according to this theory.
> 
> Barry
> 
> 
> 
> > I recently greatly improved a HR link 8 by doing nothing apart from
> > flattening the table and *barely* retouching the rails. The "hollow"
> > as you're calling it was so severe that the midpoint of the rails and
> > very end of the heel formed a visible arc (I could easily slip a
> > .0015" feeler through under the table) when the mouthpiece was pressed
> > to glass.
> >
> > Prior to flattening, I noticed that my reeds would give out after only
> > an hour or so on this mouthpiece. Also, there was a noticeable warp in
> > the edges of the reed at about the point where the rails pushed
> > against it before curving away.
> >
> > After flattening, the rails had significant flat spots from the
> > flattening, so I used some 1500 grit lightly to ease the beginning of
> > the curve. The tone and stability is a little better, and the reeds
> > are lasting MUCH longer. It's a little brighter because some of the
> > openness is gone due to losing the "hump" off the side rails.
> >
> > Is this a unique experience?
> >
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Edward McLean" <ewmclean@>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Barry Levine"
> >> <barrylevine@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Keith wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > The concavity from mass production methods can be seen in modern
> >> Link STMs.
> >> > >  Other makes have it too.  These tables are concave with a high
> > heel.
> >> > > These tables are not flat around the perimeter where the reed
> >> should be
> >> > > sealed.
> >> >
> >> > I noticed a concavity like this on my Ponzol soprano HR mouthpiece.
> >> It could
> >>  > be seen by looking at the side profile of the mouthpiece. I wrote
> >> to Peter
> >> > Ponzol inquiring about this, although I only described it as a
"slight
> >> > concavity" of the table.
> >>
> >
**************************************************************************
> >>
> >>   The idea that the hollow on a table enables reed expansion when wet
> >> due to osmosis, seems to me questionable. The stock is a long way
from
> >> the wet tip end.
> >>
> >> Soaking the entire reed before use will produce this expansion, but I
> >> have yet to see a reed, wet in this area after playing.
> >>
> >> A reed cannot push away from a flat table, if held against that table
> >> by the ligature, which will also resist migration of moisture by
> >> constriction.
> >>
> >>   If there is no hollow, it cannot swell.
> >>     Do we really want it to ?                    Eddie
> >>
> >>
> >
****************************************************************************
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > He graciously, replied, albeit briefly, implying that the
> > concavity was
> >> > deliberate
> >> >
> >> > > When a reed gets wet it tends to swell,  if it doesn't have
> >> someplace to go
> >> > > it will push away from the table.
> >> >
> >> > (that was all he wrote)
> >> >
> >> > I use Fibracells, which don't swell AFAIK. Because at the time that
> >> > particular mouthpiece seemed to be playing less well (purchased new
> >> about
> >> > 2-3 years earlier), I wondered if I was seeing some dimensional
> >> instability.
> >> > (I also later found some rail asymmetry.) In any case, I flattened
> >> the table
> >> > by taking down the heel, which seemed to improve things.
> >> >
> >> > Barry
> >> >
>

> In his book "The Saxophone Reed", Ray Reed claims that after a reed has
> been
> played a while, the edges of the underside of the reed begin to curve
> away
> from the table, causing the reed to develop a slight convex
> cross-section.
> He calls this "the primary warp", which he deems a natural consequence of
> the reed being set in vibration. This convexity supposedly starts to
> appear
> after the reed has been warmed up by playing for 5-10 minutes. This is
> why
> reeds often improve after the bottom is re-flattened on a file or
> sandpaper.

I'm not sure, but I think after 30-60 minutes a cane reed may get soft
enough that with certain ligatures it will conform to the table shape.  So
if the concavity is too deep, the reed will be forced into a more warped
shape.  If it is flat, it will be forced flat.  It is really not a big deal
unless there is a major leak.  You can play through minor leaks.

I prefer a flat table strategy.  I mostly play Fibracells, but my clients
play a lot of cane.   I have played concave tables that play great too.  


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