Keith, This is an excellent summary article, and it brings up a point that I used to hear from various woodwind techs in NYC  back in the 70's: that modern brass is almost all recycled brass, and the original brass used in making the vintage horns, mouthpieces too, was what they referred to as "virgin brass", and that was supposedly one of the reasons why vintage saxophones sounded better. I imagine the ratio of component metals could be controlled better, there are many different brass alloys. I don't know if this is one of the myths that have been dispelled. As others in the group have pointed out, the actual material of mouthpieces may be not as important as their characteristics that affect manufacturing, design, shape, facing, etc., etc. As an alloy it seems unlikely that leaching of the components, like lead,  would be a problem?



  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Keith Bradbury<mailto:kwbradbury@...> 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com<mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com> 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 9:10 AM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Brass, and Nickel


  Let's try to focus on exchanging information instead of taking jabs 
  at each other... which I like to do too. Saftey information should 
  not be a contest.

  This article indicates that about half of all brass in use contains 
  lead: 

  http://www.copper.org/innovations/1998/07/brass360.html<http://www.copperorg/innovations/1998/07/brass360.html>

  It also explains that leaded brass can be machined 5X faster than non-
  leaded.

  What we need are statements from the mouthpiece manufactures as to 
  what kind of brass they use. But they may just take the stand that 
  it does not matter since their product is intended to be used with 
  plating on it.

  Does anyone know if those with Nickel allergies also have problems 
  with Chrome plating? I believe Runyon uses a lot of Chrome plating, 
  which may be a better plating than Nickel for the general public. I 
  touched up my mouthpiece using "Copy Chrome" from Caswell, which is a 
  Nickel plating made to blend in with Chrome.



   

>>As others in the group have pointed out, the actual material of
mouthpieces may be not as important as their characteristics that affect
manufacturing, design, shape, facing, etc., etc. As an alloy it seems
unlikely that leaching of the components, like lead, would be a problem?

Are you wondering if lead leaching out would affect the sound of a mouthpiece?

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Not at all, sorry for being unclear. I was commenting on some of the the points the article made about brass, and I was adding comments regarding issues and concerns that had been raised earlier in the discussion.  

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Keith Bradbury<mailto:kwbradbury@...> 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com<mailto:MouthpieceWork@...m> 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 7:15 PM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Brass, and Nickel and Lead


  >>As others in the group have pointed out, the actual material of
  mouthpieces may be not as important as their characteristics that affect
  manufacturing, design, shape, facing, etc., etc. As an alloy it seems
  unlikely that leaching of the components, like lead, would be a problem?

  Are you wondering if lead leaching out would affect the sound of a mouthpiece?

  __________________________________________________
  Do You Yahoo!?
  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
  http://mail.yahoo.com<http://mail.yahoo.com/> 


   

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "John Richmond" <jsrmd@...> wrote:
>
> Keith, This is an excellent summary article, and it brings up a
point that I used to hear from various woodwind techs in NYC  back in
the 70's: that modern brass is almost all recycled brass, and the
original brass used in making the vintage horns, mouthpieces too, was
what they referred to as "virgin brass", and that was supposedly one
of the reasons why vintage saxophones sounded better. I imagine the
ratio of component metals could be controlled better, there are many
different brass alloys. I don't know if this is one of the myths that
have been dispelled. As others in the group have pointed out, the
actual material of mouthpieces may be not as important as their
characteristics that affect manufacturing, design, shape, facing,
etc., etc. As an alloy it seems unlikely that leaching of the
components, like lead,  would be a problem?


I have noticed that this subject seems to come up every now and then,
both here and on SOTW forum.  The writers suggest or have heard that
there is such a thing as vintage brass and that it is:

a) No longer available.
b) Superior in some way to "modern brass".
c) The reason why vintage instruments and / or mouthpieces sound
better, and cannot be matched by modern makers.

Does anyone have any solid facts about this topic, or is it simply a
rumour that keeps getting endlessly recycled?

Regards,
Andrew

I think we are here trying to get more knowledge of facts, more chemical analysys or scifi research. For sure not so many musician take this metal problem as a dangerous fact for healty... 
 I can imagine asking this to Charlie Parker and get answer like... very is my eroin I'm going to play... only that I need, what's lead? a bullet? Hey chemicals... I didn't do nothing, why you want to put me under arrest???
 
 Ah ah ah...
 
 but let's go to talk about opinion in other blog, you wrote: 
 writers suggest or have heard... no more vintage quality brass!
 ECONOMY MAKE THE MARKET, SO PRODUCTION IS NOT GOING TO QUALITY DIRECTION.
 superior in some way...no more.
 WHICH WAY ? ALL WE KNOW NO MORE SAME HIGH QUALITY BRASS. IT WAS INTERESTING TO KNOW WHY, BUT TALKING ON THIS DAY WITH PHIL BARONE, HE TOLD ME IN HIS PRODUCTION THERE IS NOT LEAD.
 SAME AS PETER PONZOL TOLD ME LAST MONTH.
 BOTH ARE USING ANYWAY A GOLD PLATING !
 cannot be matched by modern makers...
 I AGREE FOR THE SAXOPHONE 100% TRUE!
 BUT FOR MOUTHPIECES I DONT THINK SO, I KNOW SO MANY OF THEM  MADE WITH SURGICAL STEEL AND THEY PLAY EVEN BETTER THAN BRASS VERSION... THE CUT OF A MOUTHPIECE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN MATERIAL USED.
 Isn't it?
 
 Ciao. Gian
 
 
andrewhdonaldson <andrewhdonaldson@...> wrote:                                  --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "John Richmond" <jsrmd@...> wrote:
I have noticed that this subject seems to come up every now and then,
 both here and on SOTW forum.  The writers suggest or have heard that
 there is such a thing as vintage brass and that it is:
 
 a) No longer available.
 b) Superior in some way to "modern brass".
 c) The reason why vintage instruments and / or mouthpieces sound
 better, and cannot be matched by modern makers.
   
 
     
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The vintage saxophone webpage is here!
  www.bebopitalia.com
 Need a vintage sax in perfect condition?
 Need a flute or a windwood? Need a mouthpiece?
 Need an hard to find model? Just order to us!
 WE ARE HERE TO SERVE YOU AT NICE PRICE
 Specialized on SML and vintage sax
 

 Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 

It's an urban legend. Total myth. The material does not affect the sound. So whether the alloy used in older horns is different from the alloy used in modern horns is irrelevant, not to mention that there are different alloys used in modern horns, just as there were different alloys used in vintage horns.

Toby

andrewhdonaldson <andrewhdonaldson@...> wrote:                                  --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "John Richmond" <jsrmd@...> wrote:
 >
 > Keith, This is an excellent summary article, and it brings up a
 point that I used to hear from various woodwind techs in NYC  back in
 the 70's: that modern brass is almost all recycled brass, and the
 original brass used in making the vintage horns, mouthpieces too, was
 what they referred to as "virgin brass", and that was supposedly one
 of the reasons why vintage saxophones sounded better. I imagine the
 ratio of component metals could be controlled better, there are many
 different brass alloys. I don't know if this is one of the myths that
 have been dispelled. As others in the group have pointed out, the
 actual material of mouthpieces may be not as important as their
 characteristics that affect manufacturing, design, shape, facing,
 etc., etc. As an alloy it seems unlikely that leaching of the
 components, like lead,  would be a problem?
 
 I have noticed that this subject seems to come up every now and then,
 both here and on SOTW forum.  The writers suggest or have heard that
 there is such a thing as vintage brass and that it is:
 
 a) No longer available.
 b) Superior in some way to "modern brass".
 c) The reason why vintage instruments and / or mouthpieces sound
 better, and cannot be matched by modern makers.
 
 Does anyone have any solid facts about this topic, or is it simply a
 rumour that keeps getting endlessly recycled?
 
 Regards,
 Andrew
 
 
     
                       
 

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, 
"andrewhdonaldson" <andrewhdonaldson@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "John Richmond" <jsrmd@> 
wrote:
> >
> > Keith, This is an excellent summary article, and it brings up a
> point that I used to hear from various woodwind techs in NYC  back 
in
> the 70's: that modern brass is almost all recycled brass, and the
> original brass used in making the vintage horns, mouthpieces too, 
was
> what they referred to as "virgin brass", and that was supposedly one
> of the reasons why vintage saxophones sounded better. I imagine the
> ratio of component metals could be controlled better, there are many
> different brass alloys. I don't know if this is one of the myths 
that
> have been dispelled. As others in the group have pointed out, the
> actual material of mouthpieces may be not as important as their
> characteristics that affect manufacturing, design, shape, facing,
> etc., etc. As an alloy it seems unlikely that leaching of the
> components, like lead,  would be a problem?
> 
> 
> I have noticed that this subject seems to come up every now and 
then,
> both here and on SOTW forum.  The writers suggest or have heard that
> there is such a thing as vintage brass and that it is:
> 
> a) No longer available.
> b) Superior in some way to "modern brass".
> c) The reason why vintage instruments and / or mouthpieces sound
> better, and cannot be matched by modern makers.
> 
> Does anyone have any solid facts about this topic, or is it simply a
> rumour that keeps getting endlessly recycled?
> 


It would seem that if the old brass was somehow special, that it 
would be in demand for dedicated recycling for musical instrument use.

Materials do make a difference, but only if they are catually 
different materials (does that make sense...?!).

Is Platinum ever used to plate mouthpieces?  As it used for dental 
work, it would seem to stand up to the mouth as an environment and 
possibly could be an alternative to Gold Plate for those who are 
sensitive or don't like gold.

Steve W