I have an old Link tenor piece.  The plating on was so badly damaged, 
that it was essentially unmeasurable.  So I cleaned up the table with 
600.  Starting to look flat now, though there's still some plating 
near the butt.  I'm definitly down to the brass underneath.  There 
are also some areas delaminating in from the tip, at the baffle that 
I'd like to clean up

A mouthpiece guy told me that you shouldn't play on unfinished brass 
because the brass contains lead and lead is poison.

I know you guys reface these things all the time.  What do you do 
about this?

I did a search on the list on "brass" and "toxic", but nothing real 
useful came up.

What do you guys do?

Mark.

Hi Mark
 
 I just post same question of you... and I hope some guy with experience on refacing will tell about it.
 
 Nobody tell how is dangerous to play a Dukoff for example, I dont know how is made, but is so soft that I'm sure they put lead in... terrible only to think about... and if is true I will comment that in USA there are so strict law for all, but for the healty you are so far from Europe... I have seen how is permitted to use a lot of  substances dangerous for healty in the name of business or how is possible there let a medicine to go out to kill people and than retired from the market asking... sorry it was a good business.
 
 That's why I will not be surprised to know that a Dukoff is as a bomb in your mouth and that anybody is still using because of no knowledge. I like my Duk but I will trought out of the window in a second or as I want to do... try to plate in gold.
 
 ciao. gian

msausville <saus@...> wrote:                                  I have an old Link tenor piece.  The plating on was so badly damaged, 
 that it was essentially unmeasurable.  So I cleaned up the table with 
 600.  Starting to look flat now, though there's still some plating 
 near the butt.  I'm definitly down to the brass underneath.  There 
 are also some areas delaminating in from the tip, at the baffle that 
 I'd like to clean up
 
 A mouthpiece guy told me that you shouldn't play on unfinished brass 
 because the brass contains lead and lead is poison.
 
 I know you guys reface these things all the time.  What do you do 
 about this?
 
 I did a search on the list on "brass" and "toxic", but nothing real 
 useful came up.
 
 What do you guys do?
 
 Mark.
 
 
     
                       


The vintage saxophone webpage is here!
  www.bebopitalia.com
 Need a vintage sax in perfect condition?
 Need a flute or a windwood? Need a mouthpiece?
 Need an hard to find model? Just order to us!
 WE ARE HERE TO SERVE YOU AT NICE PRICE
 Specialized on SML and vintage sax
 

 Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 

I don't think it is lead, that would be illegal due to health laws in the USA, too.  But whatever the metal, it is so soft that just measureing the facing with feeler and glass gauge damages the facing.  
   
  Paul

Bebop Italia <cubismofree@...> wrote:
          Hi Mark

I just post same question of you... and I hope some guy with experience on refacing will tell about it.

Nobody tell how is dangerous to play a Dukoff for example, I dont know how is made, but is so soft that I'm sure they put lead in... terrible only to think about... and if is true I will comment that in USA there are so strict law for all, but for the healty you are so far from Europe... I have seen how is permitted to use a lot of  substances dangerous for healty in the name of business or how is possible there let a medicine to go out to kill people and than retired from the market asking... sorry it was a good business.

That's why I will not be surprised to know that a Dukoff is as a bomb in your mouth and that anybody is still using because of no knowledge. I like my Duk but I will trought out of the window in a second or as I want to do... try to plate in gold.

ciao. gian

msausville <saus@...> wrote:      I have an old Link tenor piece. The plating on was so badly damaged, 
that it was essentially unmeasurable. So I cleaned up the table with 
600. Starting to look flat now, though there's still some plating 
near the butt. I'm definitly down to the brass underneath. There 
are also some areas delaminating in from the tip, at the baffle that 
I'd like to clean up

A mouthpiece guy told me that you shouldn't play on unfinished brass 
because the brass contains lead and lead is poison.

I know you guys reface these things all the time. What do you do 
about this?

I did a search on the list on "brass" and "toxic", but nothing real 
useful came up.

What do you guys do?

Mark.






  The vintage saxophone webpage is here!
www.bebopitalia.com
Need a vintage sax in perfect condition?
Need a flute or a windwood? Need a mouthpiece?
Need an hard to find model? Just order to us!
WE ARE HERE TO SERVE YOU AT NICE PRICE
Specialized on SML and vintage sax

  Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 

         


Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
		http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
 		
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2�/min or less.

Brass is Copper and Zinc.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: msausville 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 3:54 PM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] question about brass mouthpiece toxicity


  I have an old Link tenor piece. The plating on was so badly damaged, 
  that it was essentially unmeasurable. So I cleaned up the table with 
  600. Starting to look flat now, though there's still some plating 
  near the butt. I'm definitly down to the brass underneath. There 
  are also some areas delaminating in from the tip, at the baffle that 
  I'd like to clean up

  A mouthpiece guy told me that you shouldn't play on unfinished brass 
  because the brass contains lead and lead is poison.

  I know you guys reface these things all the time. What do you do 
  about this?

  I did a search on the list on "brass" and "toxic", but nothing real 
  useful came up.

  What do you guys do?

  Mark.



   

Well, it's my impression (from the Ernst Ferron book) that the brass 
used in saxophones in fact has lead in it.  My recollection is that 
different alloys are used for different components.

The same repairman says you shouldn't play unlaquered or unplated 
horns if you don't want to risk picking up heavy metals (and 
subsquent chelation to get rid of it).

I don't know about mouthpieces.  

The Link I have (and I think this applies to all the non-gold plated 
ones) has some goldish-colored shiny stuff on the outside (seems to 
be plated on, but I guess it could be laquer or something).  When 
that sands off, you get down to "raw brass".

The reason I'm asking is that because of the top layer flaking off, 
the table was definitely not flat; it needed sanding, so I sanded 
it.  

Also there are "bubbles" on the baffle, where the top is going to 
come off.

So what's on top?  What's underneath?  Does it contain lead?

Does anyone know?

M.


--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Lars Kirmser" <syrinx@...> 
wrote:
>
> Brass is Copper and Zinc.
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: msausville 
>   To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 3:54 PM
>   Subject: [MouthpieceWork] question about brass mouthpiece toxicity
> 
> 
>   I have an old Link tenor piece. The plating on was so badly 
damaged, 
>   that it was essentially unmeasurable. So I cleaned up the table 
with 
>   600. Starting to look flat now, though there's still some plating 
>   near the butt. I'm definitly down to the brass underneath. There 
>   are also some areas delaminating in from the tip, at the baffle 
that 
>   I'd like to clean up
> 
>   A mouthpiece guy told me that you shouldn't play on unfinished 
brass 
>   because the brass contains lead and lead is poison.
> 
>   I know you guys reface these things all the time. What do you do 
>   about this?
> 
>   I did a search on the list on "brass" and "toxic", but nothing 
real 
>   useful came up.
> 
>   What do you guys do?
> 
>   Mark.
>

Some brass alloys have lead added for easier machining.  I believe 
that even with the added lead, the amount that can be leached through 
oral contact does not present a problem.  I don't know if the Links 
are using this alloy or not. Maybe Mojo knows?  I am planning to make 
metal pieces, they will likely be gold plated brass.  Thanks, Ken
- - - 
Kenneth Barry 
Saxscape Mouthpieces http://www.saxscape.com

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Lars Kirmser" <syrinx@...> 
wrote:
>
> Brass is Copper and Zinc.
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: msausville 
>   To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 3:54 PM
>   Subject: [MouthpieceWork] question about brass mouthpiece toxicity
> 
> 
>   I have an old Link tenor piece. The plating on was so badly 
damaged, 
>   that it was essentially unmeasurable. So I cleaned up the table 
with 
>   600. Starting to look flat now, though there's still some plating 
>   near the butt. I'm definitly down to the brass underneath. There 
>   are also some areas delaminating in from the tip, at the baffle 
that 
>   I'd like to clean up
> 
>   A mouthpiece guy told me that you shouldn't play on unfinished 
brass 
>   because the brass contains lead and lead is poison.
> 
>   I know you guys reface these things all the time. What do you do 
>   about this?
> 
>   I did a search on the list on "brass" and "toxic", but nothing 
real 
>   useful came up.
> 
>   What do you guys do?
> 
>   Mark.
>

There are many different brass alloys. The one used will depend on the
manufacturer. Lead (up to a percentage or two) is added in order to improve
the alloys machine-ability. There are lead-free brasses which still machine
quite well. I guess that what this means is that you cannot me sure of the
alloy composition of a piece without a proper assay being carried out (or if
possible, by asking the manufacturer). If you cannot be sure of the alloy,
then get it re-plated.

 

John

 

-----Original Message-----
From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of msausville
Sent: 12 August 2006 05:52
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: question about brass mouthpiece toxicity

 

Well, it's my impression (from the Ernst Ferron book) that the brass 
used in saxophones in fact has lead in it. My recollection is that 
different alloys are used for different components.

The same repairman says you shouldn't play unlaquered or unplated 
horns if you don't want to risk picking up heavy metals (and 
subsquent chelation to get rid of it).

I don't know about mouthpieces. 

The Link I have (and I think this applies to all the non-gold plated 
ones) has some goldish-colored shiny stuff on the outside (seems to 
be plated on, but I guess it could be laquer or something). When 
that sands off, you get down to "raw brass".

The reason I'm asking is that because of the top layer flaking off, 
the table was definitely not flat; it needed sanding, so I sanded 
it. 

Also there are "bubbles" on the baffle, where the top is going to 
come off.

So what's on top? What's underneath? Does it contain lead?

Does anyone know?

M.

--- In MouthpieceWork@ <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "Lars Kirmser" <syrinx@...> 
wrote:
>
> Brass is Copper and Zinc.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: msausville 
> To: MouthpieceWork@ <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 3:54 PM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] question about brass mouthpiece toxicity
> 
> 
> I have an old Link tenor piece. The plating on was so badly 
damaged, 
> that it was essentially unmeasurable. So I cleaned up the table 
with 
> 600. Starting to look flat now, though there's still some plating 
> near the butt. I'm definitly down to the brass underneath. There 
> are also some areas delaminating in from the tip, at the baffle 
that 
> I'd like to clean up
> 
> A mouthpiece guy told me that you shouldn't play on unfinished 
brass 
> because the brass contains lead and lead is poison.
> 
> I know you guys reface these things all the time. What do you do 
> about this?
> 
> I did a search on the list on "brass" and "toxic", but nothing 
real 
> useful came up.
> 
> What do you guys do?
> 
> Mark.
>

 

Paul, 
 
 do you think the silverite of Dukoff can be plated in gold or silver?
 I never heard about it, so I suspect it's not possible... but I want to try one if there are not experiences on that... but I'm sure I can't to be the first one thinking that. 
 
 Ciao. Gian
 
 Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 

This has been discussed before... has anyone heard of a musician getting lead poisoning?  I haven't.
   
  Paul

Kenneth Barry <tenorsaxx@...> wrote:
          Some brass alloys have lead added for easier machining. I believe 
that even with the added lead, the amount that can be leached through 
oral contact does not present a problem. I don't know if the Links 
are using this alloy or not. Maybe Mojo knows? I am planning to make 
metal pieces, they will likely be gold plated brass. Thanks, Ken
- - - 
Kenneth Barry 
Saxscape Mouthpieces http://www.saxscape.com

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Lars Kirmser" <syrinx@...> 
wrote:
>
> Brass is Copper and Zinc.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: msausville 
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 3:54 PM
> Subject: [MouthpieceWork] question about brass mouthpiece toxicity
> 
> 
> I have an old Link tenor piece. The plating on was so badly 
damaged, 
> that it was essentially unmeasurable. So I cleaned up the table 
with 
> 600. Starting to look flat now, though there's still some plating 
> near the butt. I'm definitly down to the brass underneath. There 
> are also some areas delaminating in from the tip, at the baffle 
that 
> I'd like to clean up
> 
> A mouthpiece guy told me that you shouldn't play on unfinished 
brass 
> because the brass contains lead and lead is poison.
> 
> I know you guys reface these things all the time. What do you do 
> about this?
> 
> I did a search on the list on "brass" and "toxic", but nothing 
real 
> useful came up.
> 
> What do you guys do?
> 
> Mark.
>



         


Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
		http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
 		
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  Great rates starting at 1�/min.

The "silverite", whatever it is, is not lead.  But it is very soft like lead.  I think you could plate it, I don't know how long it would last.
   
  Paul

Bebop Italia <cubismofree@...> wrote:
          Paul, 

do you think the silverite of Dukoff can be plated in gold or silver?
I never heard about it, so I suspect it's not possible... but I want to try one if there are not experiences on that... but I'm sure I can't to be the first one thinking that. 

Ciao. Gian
  Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 

         


Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
		http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
 		
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2�/min or less.

I do not have anything conclusive about lead in the Brasses used or in the
"Silverite" Dukoff uses.  Manufacturers may be required to supply MSDS
sheets on their products in the US.  

Some vintage mouthpiece dealers claim there is lead in certain mouthpieces.
But they have not proved it and they also happen to be selling modern
replicas of those pieces.  I think they are just spreading fear for their
own benefit.

There are brass allergies but it is not a poison.  If you get a tingle in
your lips from playing on bare brass, you will be more comfortable with a
plated or non-brass mouthpiece.  

Some brasses taste worse than others.  After reworking my metal BS Runyon
Quantum I had a lot of exposed brass surfaces.  After a 3-4 hour gig, I had
a brass taste in my mouth I did not like.  I did not notice it on shorter
gigs.  So I brush-plated some Nickel on it and it has been fine ever since.

I have played on bare brass mouthpieces on tenor for long gigs with no
taste problems.

I believe Silverite is a lead-free Pewter.  The new ones tend to have
Nickel plating on the outside while the chamber, table and rails are left
un-plated.  So this appears to be a cosmetic plating, not a health barrier.
 But it does show that Silverite can be plated.  I had heard that Lou
Marini played on a gold-plated Dukoff.  Usually, this reqires layers of
different metals under the gold for a good job.

Recently I heard from someone who called Babbitt that modern Link STMs have
a flash (thin) layer of copper, then silver, then gold.

__________________________________________________
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I studied this at some length the last time the question came up, and what I found out is that almost all brass alloys contain some lead - often about 8-10% - to make them easier to machine. Jeff Powell, who made the Guardala pieces, confirmed that their brass contained lead, and said that he thinks that almost all brass pieces are made of alloys containing lead.

And yes, lead does definitely leach out of brass; this is why brass plumbing fittings are made with lead-free alloys.

It is not such a problem with bare brass bodies, but it is definitely an issue when there is oral contact with bare brass. Paul says that he has never seen musicians with lead poisoning, but how does he know? The effect is cumulative - why knowingly expose oneself to a known toxin. The neurological damage done by lead is irreversible and it is no fun.

Why take the risk?

Toby

Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:                                  I do not have anything conclusive about lead in the Brasses used or in the
 "Silverite" Dukoff uses.  Manufacturers may be required to supply MSDS
 sheets on their products in the US.  
 
 Some vintage mouthpiece dealers claim there is lead in certain mouthpieces.
 But they have not proved it and they also happen to be selling modern
 replicas of those pieces.  I think they are just spreading fear for their
 own benefit.
 
 There are brass allergies but it is not a poison.  If you get a tingle in
 your lips from playing on bare brass, you will be more comfortable with a
 plated or non-brass mouthpiece.  
 
 Some brasses taste worse than others.  After reworking my metal BS Runyon
 Quantum I had a lot of exposed brass surfaces.  After a 3-4 hour gig, I had
 a brass taste in my mouth I did not like.  I did not notice it on shorter
 gigs.  So I brush-plated some Nickel on it and it has been fine ever since.
 
 I have played on bare brass mouthpieces on tenor for long gigs with no
 taste problems.
 
 I believe Silverite is a lead-free Pewter.  The new ones tend to have
 Nickel plating on the outside while the chamber, table and rails are left
 un-plated.  So this appears to be a cosmetic plating, not a health barrier.
  But it does show that Silverite can be plated.  I had heard that Lou
 Marini played on a gold-plated Dukoff.  Usually, this reqires layers of
 different metals under the gold for a good job.
 
 Recently I heard from someone who called Babbitt that modern Link STMs have
 a flash (thin) layer of copper, then silver, then gold.
 
 __________________________________________________
 Do You Yahoo!?
 Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
 http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
     
                       
 

Thanks Toby to tell.... what I'm thinking about lead. You did pull out from my mouth. Why to risk when you know metals can touch your healty as a ghost
and make you sick in other form than only intoxication... cancer goes out on long term especially at the level of bone marrow on spinal and kidney...
 
 I mean for sure you must have to look at your mpc and give him a plated of gold or silver without nickel, as the jewelry made to protect the skin from allergy.
 With gold you never miss... your wife or your mouthpiece, two loves!
 
 Other dangerous metals are: mercury (not used), alluminium can be accumulated in the brain, zinc (not used) as lead, and nickel very used on old sax manufactury.
 
 What do you think Toby if I plate in gold my Dukoff as Lou Marini? The problem is that my metal mpcs are mostly bare brass, so I have to spend a lot for  jewelry work !!!
 Ciao. Gian
 
kymarto123@... wrote:                                  I studied this at some length the last time the question came up, and what I found out is that almost all brass alloys contain some lead - often about 8-10% - to make them easier to machine. Jeff Powell, who made the Guardala pieces, confirmed that their brass contained lead, and said that he thinks that almost all brass pieces are made of alloys containing lead.

And yes, lead does definitely leach out of brass; this is why brass plumbing fittings are made with lead-free alloys.

It is not such a problem with bare brass bodies, but it is definitely an issue when there is oral contact with bare brass. Paul says that he has never seen musicians with lead poisoning, but how does he know? The effect is cumulative - why knowingly expose oneself to a known toxin. The neurological damage done by lead is irreversible and it is no fun.

Why take the risk?

Toby

Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
                             I do not have anything conclusive about lead in the Brasses used or in the
 "Silverite" Dukoff uses.  Manufacturers may be required to supply MSDS
 sheets on their products in the US.  
 
 Some vintage mouthpiece dealers claim there is lead in certain mouthpieces.
 But they have not proved it and they also happen to be selling modern
 replicas of those pieces.  I think they are just spreading fear for their
 own benefit.
 
 There are brass allergies but it is not a poison.  If you get a tingle in
 your lips from playing on bare brass, you will be more  comfortable with a
 plated or non-brass mouthpiece.  
 
 Some brasses taste worse than others.  After reworking my metal BS Runyon
 Quantum I had a lot of exposed brass surfaces.  After a 3-4 hour gig, I had
 a brass taste in my mouth I did not like.  I did not notice it on shorter
 gigs.  So I brush-plated some Nickel on it and it has been fine ever since.
 
 I have played on bare brass mouthpieces on tenor for long gigs with no
 taste problems.
 
 I believe Silverite is a lead-free Pewter.  The new ones tend to have
 Nickel plating on the outside while the chamber, table and rails are left
 un-plated.  So this appears to be a cosmetic plating, not a health barrier.
  But it does show that Silverite can be plated.  I had heard that Lou
 Marini played on a gold-plated Dukoff.  Usually, this reqires layers of
 different metals under the gold for a good job.
 
 Recently I heard from someone who called Babbitt that modern  Link STMs have
 a flash (thin) layer of copper, then silver, then gold.
 
 __________________________________________________
 Do You Yahoo!?
 Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
 http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
     
            
  
 
     
                       


The vintage saxophone webpage is here!
  www.bebopitalia.com
 Need a vintage sax in perfect condition?
 Need a flute or a windwood? Need a mouthpiece?
 Need an hard to find model? Just order to us!
 WE ARE HERE TO SERVE YOU AT NICE PRICE
 Specialized on SML and vintage sax
 

 Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 

> I studied this at some length the last time the question came up, and what
> I found out is that almost all brass alloys contain some lead - often about
> 8-10% - to make them easier to machine. Jeff Powell, who made the Guardala
> pieces, confirmed that their brass contained lead, and said that he thinks
> that almost all brass pieces are made of alloys containing lead.
>
> And yes, lead does definitely leach out of brass; this is why brass
> plumbing fittings are made with lead-free alloys.
>
> It is not such a problem with bare brass bodies, but it is definitely an
> issue when there is oral contact with bare brass. Paul says that he has
> never seen musicians with lead poisoning, but how does he know? The effect
> is cumulative - why knowingly expose oneself to a known toxin. The
> neurological damage done by lead is irreversible and it is no fun.
>
> Why take the risk?
>
> Toby
>

Lead leaches out of pipes faster when the water is acidic; saliva is
alkaline, hence I think it may not be as active in leaching out the lead, if
at all. Also, how much saliva actually gets sucked back and swallowed, while
playing?

All things considered though, it seems prudent to coat raw brass that's
going to be in our mouths in some way, whether with inert plating or
lacquer.

Keith mentioned nickel plate. I have no idea what nickel's ionic mobility is
compared to lead (less, I think); but it's worth mentioning, again, that
nickel is a strong contact allergen in some people.

Barry

I do not like to interrupt, but have too. As you can
see with the msds sheet on the site bellow.  Brass is
copper, and Zinc.  Brass is only hazardous if in dust
form, and inhaled.

http://www.reverecopper.com/images/BRASSMSDS2005.pdf

Please just look at the msds sheet, and see for
yourself. Nickel is marked at 0 on health,
flamability, and reativity.

http://www.acialloys.com/msds/ni.html

If you think something is dangerous, please just
google msds, and the material you are concerned about.



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> I do not like to interrupt, but have too. As you can
> see with the msds sheet on the site bellow.  Brass is
> copper, and Zinc.  Brass is only hazardous if in dust
> form, and inhaled.
>
> http://www.reverecopper.com/images/BRASSMSDS2005.pdf
>
> Please just look at the msds sheet, and see for
> yourself. Nickel is marked at 0 on health,
> flamability, and reativity.
>
> http://www.acialloys.com/msds/ni.html
>
> If you think something is dangerous, please just
> google msds, and the material you are concerned about.


Hello Joseph Willis,

Pardonez-moi, mais:

a) Did you read the Previous Posts about some brass having lead added for
improved machining properties?  As it is said: RTFPPP. (The last P is for
"please" as I think we should maintain a level of conviviality here :)

b) I googled for  <"nickel allergy" OR "nickel contact dermatitis">.
78,000 hits.  Here's the first one:
www.dermnetnz.org/dermatitis/nickel-allergy.html
This features some instructive pictures.

Regards,

Barry


Barry

I was told that "Silverite" is slag metal.  Kind of
like the Tootsie Toy cars I had as a kid.  The ones
that once damaged could never be repaired.

David Schottle

--- "Paul C." <tenorman1952@...> wrote:

> The "silverite", whatever it is, is not lead.  But
> it is very soft like lead.  I think you could plate
> it, I don't know how long it would last.
>    
>   Paul
> 
> Bebop Italia <cubismofree@...> wrote:
>           Paul, 
> 
> do you think the silverite of Dukoff can be plated
> in gold or silver?
> I never heard about it, so I suspect it's not
> possible... but I want to try one if there are not
> experiences on that... but I'm sure I can't to be
> the first one thinking that. 
> 
> Ciao. Gian
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I have a customer, that from just holding his trumpet,
he can taste the brass in his mouth.
His horn is bare brass and his mouthpiece is silver
plate.
I had to wrap the area of physical contact to prevent
the brass from entering his system.

David Schottle

--- Barry Levine <barrylevine@...> wrote:

> > I studied this at some length the last time the
> question came up, and what
> > I found out is that almost all brass alloys
> contain some lead - often about
> > 8-10% - to make them easier to machine. Jeff
> Powell, who made the Guardala
> > pieces, confirmed that their brass contained lead,
> and said that he thinks
> > that almost all brass pieces are made of alloys
> containing lead.
> >
> > And yes, lead does definitely leach out of brass;
> this is why brass
> > plumbing fittings are made with lead-free alloys.
> >
> > It is not such a problem with bare brass bodies,
> but it is definitely an
> > issue when there is oral contact with bare brass.
> Paul says that he has
> > never seen musicians with lead poisoning, but how
> does he know? The effect
> > is cumulative - why knowingly expose oneself to a
> known toxin. The
> > neurological damage done by lead is irreversible
> and it is no fun.
> >
> > Why take the risk?
> >
> > Toby
> >
> 
> Lead leaches out of pipes faster when the water is
> acidic; saliva is
> alkaline, hence I think it may not be as active in
> leaching out the lead, if
> at all. Also, how much saliva actually gets sucked
> back and swallowed, while
> playing?
> 
> All things considered though, it seems prudent to
> coat raw brass that's
> going to be in our mouths in some way, whether with
> inert plating or
> lacquer.
> 
> Keith mentioned nickel plate. I have no idea what
> nickel's ionic mobility is
> compared to lead (less, I think); but it's worth
> mentioning, again, that
> nickel is a strong contact allergen in some people.
> 
> Barry
> 

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> Please just look at the msds sheet, and see for
> yourself. Nickel is marked at 0 on health,
> flamability, and reativity.
>
> http://www.acialloys.com/msds/ni.html
>
> If you think something is dangerous, please just
> google msds, and the material you are concerned about.

Joseph, did you read the whole page regarding Nickel?  I did. You seem to
have omitted some pertinent material:

It says:

  "Information pertaining to particular dangers for man and environment
   R 40 Limited evidence of a carcinogenic effect.
   R 43 May cause sensitization by skin contact."

Further down the page, we see data that (as far as I can tell) appears to
indicate that other countries limit Ni exposure, and regard it as somewhat
of a hazard:

"Components with limit values that require monitoring at the workplace:

Nickel and inorganic compounds, as Ni
                   mg/m3
ACGIH TLV           1.5, A5-inhalable particulate (metal)
                    0.2, A1-inhalable particulate (insoluble compounds)
                    0.1, A4-inhalable particulate (soluble compounds)
Austria             Carcinogen
Denmark TWA         0.5
Finland TWA         0.1 (skin) Carcinogen
France VME          1; C3-Carcinogen
Germany             Carcinogen
Hungary             0.005-STEL; Carcinogen (insoluble compounds)
Japan               1; 2B-Carcinogen
Korea TLV           1.5
Netherlands MAC-TGG 1; Carcinogen
                    1 (insoluble compounds)
Poland TWA          0.25
Russia              0.05-STEL
Sweden NGV          0.5 (dust)
Switzerland MAK-W   0.5; Carcinogen
United Kingdom TWA  0.1
USA PEL             1 "

Let's try to focus on exchanging information instead of taking jabs 
at each other... which I like to do too.  Saftey information should 
not be a contest.

This article indicates that about half of all brass in use contains 
lead: 

http://www.copper.org/innovations/1998/07/brass360.html

It also explains that leaded brass can be machined 5X faster than non-
leaded.

What we need are statements from the mouthpiece manufactures as to 
what kind of brass they use.  But they may just take the stand that 
it does not matter since their product is intended to be used with 
plating on it.

Does anyone know if those with Nickel allergies also have problems 
with Chrome plating?  I believe Runyon uses a lot of Chrome plating, 
which may be a better plating than Nickel for the general public.  I 
touched up my mouthpiece using "Copy Chrome" from Caswell, which is a 
Nickel plating made to blend in with Chrome.

> I studied this at some length the last time the question came up, and
> what I found out is that almost all brass alloys contain some lead -
> often about 8-10% - to make them easier to machine.

I did a few searches and came up with 3.8% max lead, most using 1-2% if
they have lead.  It is pretty easy to get lead-free brass if you can deal
with slower machining speeds (like 10X slower).  

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--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury 
<kwbradbury@...> wrote:
>
> > I studied this at some length the last time the question came 
up, and
> > what I found out is that almost all brass alloys contain some 
lead -
> > often about 8-10% - to make them easier to machine.
> 
> I did a few searches and came up with 3.8% max lead, most using 1-
2% if
> they have lead.  It is pretty easy to get lead-free brass if you 
can deal
> with slower machining speeds (like 10X slower).  
> 


The Usual Free Machine Brass is Alloy C360 - 61-1/2% Copper, 3% Lead, 
25.5% Zinc

Naval Brass is Alloy C464 - 60% Copper, no lead, 39-1/4% Zinc and 3/
4% Tin

Naval Brass, Leaded is Alloy C485 - 60% Copper, 1-3/4% Lead, 37-1/2% 
Zinc and 3/4% Tin

The only "High Lead" brass seems to be the Bearing Bronzes - prodycts 
like Alloy C932 (SAE 660) which have 7% Brass.

Steve W

Some mouthpiece maker declare no lead on their brass, so we can assume there is still pure brass to buy. I can ask to the University of Chemical of Torino, where I have a friend working there, if we can have an analysis of some mpc searching for the components, but sure I will do only if they can make it without destroy my mouthpieces.
 
 Somebody do that before? or we can to know analysis from manufacturer? I think they know exactly what they are using... if it is under controll of Healty Bureaux.
 Gian 

Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:                                  > I studied this at some length the last time the question came up, and
 > what I found out is that almost all brass alloys contain some lead -
 > often about 8-10% - to make them easier to machine.
 
 I did a few searches and came up with 3.8% max lead, most using 1-2% if
 they have lead.  It is pretty easy to get lead-free brass if you can deal
 with slower machining speeds (like 10X slower).  
 
 __________________________________________________
 Do You Yahoo!?
 Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
 http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
     
                       

 Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 

Pretty much all brass has some lead content as you can see below, but 
very little is available to diffuse to the surface where you can 
absorb it...it is pretty well bonded in the bulk. 

From matweb.com:
Red Brass
Component    Wt. %  
 
Cu       84 - 86   
Fe       Min 0.05   
Pb       Min 0.06   
Zn       15  

Yellow Brass
Component    Wt. %   
Cu          64 - 68.5   
Fe          Max 0.05   
Pb          Max 0.15   
Zn          31.3 - 36 
 
Trace amounts of lead but some (~100 ppm)

but free-machining brass (the most common variety):
Component    Wt. %  
Cu          60 - 63   
Fe          Max 0.35   
Other       Max 0.5   
Pb          2.5 - 3.7   
Zn          35.5 


http://www.matweb.com/search/GetSubcat.asp
Most--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Barry Levine" 
<barrylevine@...> wrote:
>
> > I do not like to interrupt, but have too. As you can
> > see with the msds sheet on the site bellow.  Brass is
> > copper, and Zinc.  Brass is only hazardous if in dust
> > form, and inhaled.
> >
> > http://www.reverecopper.com/images/BRASSMSDS2005.pdf
> >
> > Please just look at the msds sheet, and see for
> > yourself. Nickel is marked at 0 on health,
> > flamability, and reativity.
> >
> > http://www.acialloys.com/msds/ni.html
> >
> > If you think something is dangerous, please just
> > google msds, and the material you are concerned about.
> 
> 
> Hello Joseph Willis,
> 
> Pardonez-moi, mais:
> 
> a) Did you read the Previous Posts about some brass having lead 
added for
> improved machining properties?  As it is said: RTFPPP. (The last P 
is for
> "please" as I think we should maintain a level of conviviality 
here :)
> 
> b) I googled for  <"nickel allergy" OR "nickel contact dermatitis">.
> 78,000 hits.  Here's the first one:
> www.dermnetnz.org/dermatitis/nickel-allergy.html
> This features some instructive pictures.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Barry
> 
> 
> Barry
>

Quite right...anyone else got mercury amalgam fillings?

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of sjrosner
Sent: 18 August 2006 04:55
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Brass, and Nickel

 

Pretty much all brass has some lead content as you can see below, but 
very little is available to diffuse to the surface where you can 
absorb it...it is pretty well bonded in the bulk. 

From matweb.com:
Red Brass
Component Wt. % 

Cu 84 - 86 
Fe Min 0.05 
Pb Min 0.06 
Zn 15 

Yellow Brass
Component Wt. % 
Cu 64 - 68.5 
Fe Max 0.05 
Pb Max 0.15 
Zn 31.3 - 36 

Trace amounts of lead but some (~100 ppm)

but free-machining brass (the most common variety):
Component Wt. % 
Cu 60 - 63 
Fe Max 0.35 
Other Max 0.5 
Pb 2.5 - 3.7 
Zn 35.5 

http://www.matweb. <http://www.matweb.com/search/GetSubcat.asp>
com/search/GetSubcat.asp
Most--- In MouthpieceWork@ <mailto:MouthpieceWork%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "Barry Levine" 
<barrylevine@...> wrote:
>
> > I do not like to interrupt, but have too. As you can
> > see with the msds sheet on the site bellow. Brass is
> > copper, and Zinc. Brass is only hazardous if in dust
> > form, and inhaled.
> >
> > http://www.revereco
<http://www.reverecopper.com/images/BRASSMSDS2005.pdf>
pper.com/images/BRASSMSDS2005.pdf
> >
> > Please just look at the msds sheet, and see for
> > yourself. Nickel is marked at 0 on health,
> > flamability, and reativity.
> >
> > http://www.acialloy <http://www.acialloys.com/msds/ni.html>
s.com/msds/ni.html
> >
> > If you think something is dangerous, please just
> > google msds, and the material you are concerned about.
> 
> 
> Hello Joseph Willis,
> 
> Pardonez-moi, mais:
> 
> a) Did you read the Previous Posts about some brass having lead 
added for
> improved machining properties? As it is said: RTFPPP. (The last P 
is for
> "please" as I think we should maintain a level of conviviality 
here :)
> 
> b) I googled for <"nickel allergy" OR "nickel contact dermatitis">.
> 78,000 hits. Here's the first one:
> www.dermnetnz.org/dermatitis/nickel-allergy.html
> This features some instructive pictures.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Barry
> 
> 
> Barry
>

 

Hei Barry... you wrote  > > If you think something is dangerous, please just
 google msds, and the material you are concerned about.
 
 But... watch out to believe what you read on the net !!!
 I would be not so sure all you can read there is the true. When they write is healty I suspect can be not!
 
 Do you remember the story of the medicine Vioxx very famous arround the world. On google they said it was the best result of farmaceutical for pain release and artritis... then it was retired from the market because reconized as source of cancer...

 Gian


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 Need a flute or a windwood? Need a mouthpiece?
 Need an hard to find model? Just order to us!
 WE ARE HERE TO SERVE YOU AT NICE PRICE
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As you probably know there is a growing movement--among dentists as well--to remove all amalgam fillings and replace them with substitute materials, such as resin composities. Some people who have done so have reported marked improvements in health. Even taking suggestion and placebo effect into account, there seems to be something to it.

Toby

John Ricketts <Dr_J_P_Ricketts@...> wrote:                                           
  Quite right$B!D(B..anyone else got mercury amalgam fillings?
   
   
  -----Original Message-----
 From: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sjrosner
 Sent: 18 August 2006 04:55
 To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Brass, and Nickel
   
        Pretty much all brass has some lead content as you can see below, but 
 very little is available to diffuse to the surface where you can 
 absorb it...it is pretty well bonded in the bulk. 
 
 From matweb.com:
 Red Brass
 Component Wt. % 
 
 Cu 84 - 86 
 Fe Min 0.05 
 Pb Min 0.06 
 Zn 15 
 
 Yellow Brass
 Component Wt. % 
 Cu 64 - 68.5 
 Fe Max 0.05 
 Pb Max 0.15 
 Zn 31.3 - 36 
 
 Trace amounts of lead but some (~100 ppm)
 
 but free-machining brass (the most common variety):
 Component Wt. % 
 Cu 60 - 63 
 Fe Max 0.35 
 Other Max 0.5 
 Pb 2.5 - 3.7 
 Zn 35.5 
 
 http://www.matweb.com/search/GetSubcat.asp
 Most--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Barry Levine" 
 <barrylevine@...> wrote:
 >
 > > I do not like to interrupt, but have too. As you can
 > > see with the msds sheet on the site bellow. Brass is
 > > copper, and Zinc. Brass is only hazardous if in dust
 > > form, and inhaled.
 > >
 > > http://www.reverecopper.com/images/BRASSMSDS2005.pdf
 > >
 > > Please just look at the msds sheet, and see for
 > > yourself. Nickel is marked at 0 on health,
 > > flamability, and reativity.
 > >
 > > http://www.acialloys.com/msds/ni.html
 > >
 > > If you think something is dangerous, please just
 > > google msds, and the material you are concerned about.
 > 
 > 
 > Hello Joseph Willis,
 > 
 > Pardonez-moi, mais:
 > 
 > a) Did you read the Previous Posts about some brass having lead 
 added for
 > improved machining properties? As it is said: RTFPPP. (The last P 
 is for
 > "please" as I think we should maintain a level of conviviality 
 here :)
 > 
 > b) I googled for <"nickel allergy" OR "nickel contact dermatitis">.
 > 78,000 hits. Here's the first one:
 > www.dermnetnz.org/dermatitis/nickel-allergy.html
 > This features some instructive pictures.
 > 
 > Regards,
 > 
 > Barry
 > 
 > 
 > Barry
 >
  
  

      


     
                       
 

Actually I read that the lead in these alloys is not chemically bonded to the other metals--it is literally just a mix--so it is indeed free and can be absorbed.

This article is mainly about lead paint, but it is informative. Don't forget that even leaded glass presents a risk it is not recommended to store potable liquids in leaded glass containers. The risks are well known, why play with fire?

http://www.nsc.org/library/facts/lead.htm

Toby

sjrosner <sjrosner@...> wrote:                                  Pretty much all brass has some lead content as you can see below, but 
 very little is available to diffuse to the surface where you can 
 absorb it...it is pretty well bonded in the bulk. 
 
 From matweb.com:
 Red Brass
 Component    Wt. %  
  
 Cu       84 - 86   
 Fe       Min 0.05   
 Pb       Min 0.06   
 Zn       15  
 
 Yellow Brass
 Component    Wt. %   
 Cu          64 - 68.5   
 Fe          Max 0.05   
 Pb          Max 0.15   
 Zn          31.3 - 36 
  
 Trace amounts of lead but some (~100 ppm)
 
 but free-machining brass (the most common variety):
 Component    Wt. %  
 Cu          60 - 63   
 Fe          Max 0.35   
 Other       Max 0.5   
 Pb          2.5 - 3.7   
 Zn          35.5 
 
 http://www.matweb.com/search/GetSubcat.asp
 Most--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Barry Levine" 
 <barrylevine@...> wrote:
 >
 > > I do not like to interrupt, but have too. As you can
 > > see with the msds sheet on the site bellow.  Brass is
 > > copper, and Zinc.  Brass is only hazardous if in dust
 > > form, and inhaled.
 > >
 > > http://www.reverecopper.com/images/BRASSMSDS2005.pdf
 > >
 > > Please just look at the msds sheet, and see for
 > > yourself. Nickel is marked at 0 on health,
 > > flamability, and reativity.
 > >
 > > http://www.acialloys.com/msds/ni.html
 > >
 > > If you think something is dangerous, please just
 > > google msds, and the material you are concerned about.
 > 
 > 
 > Hello Joseph Willis,
 > 
 > Pardonez-moi, mais:
 > 
 > a) Did you read the Previous Posts about some brass having lead 
 added for
 > improved machining properties?  As it is said: RTFPPP. (The last P 
 is for
 > "please" as I think we should maintain a level of conviviality 
 here :)
 > 
 > b) I googled for  <"nickel allergy" OR "nickel contact dermatitis">.
 > 78,000 hits.  Here's the first one:
 > www.dermnetnz.org/dermatitis/nickel-allergy.html
 > This features some instructive pictures.
 > 
 > Regards,
 > 
 > Barry
 > 
 > 
 > Barry
 >
 
 
     
                       
 

A number of brasses do have higher lead content, although it is true that it the majority of brass alloys seem to contain between 2-4%

Here are a couple of interesting links. The first is a bit tangential, but clearly shows that lead remains unbonded in brass:

http://www.jomesa.de/english/image_analysis/metallography/metallographie_lead_content.htm

And here is an interesting article about lead leaching from plumbing fixtures, and the conditions under which it does:

http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id4334

Toby

Steve Weinert <steveweinert@...> wrote:                                  --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury 
 <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
 >
 > > I studied this at some length the last time the question came 
 up, and
 > > what I found out is that almost all brass alloys contain some 
 lead -
 > > often about 8-10% - to make them easier to machine.
 > 
 > I did a few searches and came up with 3.8% max lead, most using 1-
 2% if
 > they have lead.  It is pretty easy to get lead-free brass if you 
 can deal
 > with slower machining speeds (like 10X slower).  
 > 
 
 The Usual Free Machine Brass is Alloy C360 - 61-1/2% Copper, 3% Lead, 
 25.5% Zinc
 
 Naval Brass is Alloy C464 - 60% Copper, no lead, 39-1/4% Zinc and 3/
 4% Tin
 
 Naval Brass, Leaded is Alloy C485 - 60% Copper, 1-3/4% Lead, 37-1/2% 
 Zinc and 3/4% Tin
 
 The only "High Lead" brass seems to be the Bearing Bronzes - prodycts 
 like Alloy C932 (SAE 660) which have 7% Brass.
 
 Steve W