Hello all - I am new to the group and very new to mouthpiece working in 
general.  To get started as I build up my tools I've begun working on 
flattening the tables on some of my junk pieces, but I'm not really 
sure what I'm doing.  I have a vague idea about sanding it against 
glass and reading the light and dark spots but I definitely can't judge 
the results with any certainty.  Any advice on 1) how to find the 
high/low spots, and 2) the best method for getting it flat and knowing 
that its flat.  Thanks to all who might respond!

Wil Swindler

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Wil Swindler" <wjswindler@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello all - I am new to the group and very new to mouthpiece working in 
> general.  To get started as I build up my tools I've begun working on 
> flattening the tables on some of my junk pieces, but I'm not really 
> sure what I'm doing.  I have a vague idea about sanding it against 
> glass and reading the light and dark spots but I definitely can't judge 
> the results with any certainty.  Any advice on 1) how to find the 
> high/low spots, and 2) the best method for getting it flat and knowing 
> that its flat.  Thanks to all who might respond!
> 
> Wil Swindler
>
Hello Wil & welcome to the group. I am fairly new myself, but use a
steel rule edge, both across and lengthwise on the table whilst
holding up to the light. This gives a good idea of any humps or
hollows that may require attention.
 As I am not an expert, I will leave the method of correcting these to
others. However, I think you will find full details somewhere in
previous posts. 
I started, by reading all the posts from number one. 
Refacing can be very satisfying when you get it right and I find it
slightly addictive. Enjoy.   Eddie. 

[ Attachment content not displayed ]

Many mpc makers make the center of the table slightly concave, basically, in my understanding, as a sort of insurance against warped reeds. The thought is that if the bottom of the reed is slightly convex, the high spot will keep the reed edges from contacting the table edges and thus keep the reed from sealing well. I personally don't believe that it is necessary.

Toby

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Matthew August Stohrer 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 12:05 PM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Flattening the Table


  i have heard from a few mouthpiece refacers that getting it is desirable to have a slight concavity in the middle of the table, and that you can see this slight concavity in the desirable handmade pieces of yore... has anyone heard of this?  anyone have more info?  



  On 7/6/06, Edward McLean <ewmclean@...> wrote:
    --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Wil Swindler" <wjswindler@...> 


    wrote:
    >
    > Hello all - I am new to the group and very new to mouthpiece working in 
    > general. To get started as I build up my tools I've begun working on 
    > flattening the tables on some of my junk pieces, but I'm not really 
    > sure what I'm doing. I have a vague idea about sanding it against 
    > glass and reading the light and dark spots but I definitely can't judge 
    > the results with any certainty. Any advice on 1) how to find the 
    > high/low spots, and 2) the best method for getting it flat and knowing 
    > that its flat. Thanks to all who might respond!
    > 
    > Wil Swindler
    >

    Hello Wil & welcome to the group. I am fairly new myself, but use a
    steel rule edge, both across and lengthwise on the table whilst
    holding up to the light. This gives a good idea of any humps or
    hollows that may require attention.
    As I am not an expert, I will leave the method of correcting these to
    others. However, I think you will find full details somewhere in
    previous posts. 
    I started, by reading all the posts from number one. 
    Refacing can be very satisfying when you get it right and I find it
    slightly addictive. Enjoy. Eddie. 






  -- 
  matthew august stohrer
  www.stohrerwoodwinds.com 

   

I have a 3/8" thick piece of tempered glass that I use as a work surface.  
   
  I cut silicon carbide ("wet or dry") paper in half by simply tearing with a metal straight edge.  Make sure the back of the cutting paper is free of debris and especially price stickers.
   
  For metal I use 400 grit, for hard rubber and plastic, 600.
   
  I put a piece of cutting paper on the glass, and I grasp the mouthpiece with my thumb and middle and ring fingers on the sides, and index finger pressed firmly on top right in the middle.  I make one stroke on the paper, pulling the mouthpiece toward the shank end.  
   
  That should clearly show you where the high spots are.  At this point if the sanding is even over the table, I check the facing with feelers to see if it is fairly even from side to side.  
   
  Unless the table is flat (and I don't do the concave center either) there is no use working on the facing as you can't get consistent readings.  
   
  If the facing is crooked at this point, and the table needs flattening, I try to apply pressure in such a way as to even out the facing.
   
  As soon as the facing is evenly shaded from the sanding I stop.  Now it is time to work on the facing.  I concentrate on getting the .014" through tip correct first.  Then I work on the .0015" and .010" area (the "break").
   
  In general, the .010" reading should be 5mm shorter than the .0015" reading.  That is, if the .0015" facing length is 22 mm (a reading of 44 on the Eric Brand scale), then the .010" reading should be 17 mm (a reading of 34 on the Eric Brand scale).
   
  A little trick on polishing the table and facing... this is too easy... 
   
  Simply turn the paper over, paper side up.  There is just enough silicon carbide dust on the paper to give a fine polish.  Just a stroke or two on the table will give a nice polish, and then a light stroke lifting the shank end to polish the side and tip rails.  This works for both metal and rubber mouthpieces.
   
  To remove green oxidation from hard rubber mouthpieces I have been using the Mr. Clean Magic Eraser and water.  After I have cleaned it as much as possible, I polish by hand using Kit Scratch Out and a soft rag.  Flitz and some of the other fine polishes will also work for this.  A rinse in water and wipe dry and the mouthpiece will look pretty good.
   
  Finally, I apply a clear patch to the beak.
   
  Paul
   
  
Wil Swindler <wjswindler@...> wrote:
          Hello all - I am new to the group and very new to mouthpiece working in 
general. To get started as I build up my tools I've begun working on 
flattening the tables on some of my junk pieces, but I'm not really 
sure what I'm doing. I have a vague idea about sanding it against 
glass and reading the light and dark spots but I definitely can't judge 
the results with any certainty. Any advice on 1) how to find the 
high/low spots, and 2) the best method for getting it flat and knowing 
that its flat. Thanks to all who might respond!

Wil Swindler



         


Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
		http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
 		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Next-gen email? Have it all with the  all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

My understanding of the concave portion is because the
MPCs are machine faced.
The heat  causes the area to expand, causing more
material to be removed.
Once it cools, you an "intentional" depression.

David S.

--- Toby <kymarto123@...> wrote:

> Many mpc makers make the center of the table
> slightly concave, basically, in my understanding, as
> a sort of insurance against warped reeds. The
> thought is that if the bottom of the reed is
> slightly convex, the high spot will keep the reed
> edges from contacting the table edges and thus keep
> the reed from sealing well. I personally don't
> believe that it is necessary.
> 
> Toby
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Matthew August Stohrer 
>   To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 12:05 PM
>   Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Flattening the
> Table
> 
> 
>   i have heard from a few mouthpiece refacers that
> getting it is desirable to have a slight concavity
> in the middle of the table, and that you can see
> this slight concavity in the desirable handmade
> pieces of yore... has anyone heard of this?  anyone
> have more info?  
> 
> 
> 
>   On 7/6/06, Edward McLean
> <ewmclean@...> wrote:
>     --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Wil
> Swindler" <wjswindler@...> 
> 
> 
>     wrote:
>     >
>     > Hello all - I am new to the group and very new
> to mouthpiece working in 
>     > general. To get started as I build up my tools
> I've begun working on 
>     > flattening the tables on some of my junk
> pieces, but I'm not really 
>     > sure what I'm doing. I have a vague idea about
> sanding it against 
>     > glass and reading the light and dark spots but
> I definitely can't judge 
>     > the results with any certainty. Any advice on
> 1) how to find the 
>     > high/low spots, and 2) the best method for
> getting it flat and knowing 
>     > that its flat. Thanks to all who might
> respond!
>     > 
>     > Wil Swindler
>     >
> 
>     Hello Wil & welcome to the group. I am fairly
> new myself, but use a
>     steel rule edge, both across and lengthwise on
> the table whilst
>     holding up to the light. This gives a good idea
> of any humps or
>     hollows that may require attention.
>     As I am not an expert, I will leave the method
> of correcting these to
>     others. However, I think you will find full
> details somewhere in
>     previous posts. 
>     I started, by reading all the posts from number
> one. 
>     Refacing can be very satisfying when you get it
> right and I find it
>     slightly addictive. Enjoy. Eddie. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   -- 
>   matthew august stohrer
>   www.stohrerwoodwinds.com 
> 
>    

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

That is what was explained to me, too.
   
  Paul

david schottle <saxcat2001@...> wrote:
          My understanding of the concave portion is because the
MPCs are machine faced.
The heat causes the area to expand, causing more
material to be removed.
Once it cools, you an "intentional" depression.

David S.

--- Toby <kymarto123@...> wrote:

> Many mpc makers make the center of the table
> slightly concave, basically, in my understanding, as
> a sort of insurance against warped reeds. The
> thought is that if the bottom of the reed is
> slightly convex, the high spot will keep the reed
> edges from contacting the table edges and thus keep
> the reed from sealing well. I personally don't
> believe that it is necessary.
> 
> Toby
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Matthew August Stohrer 
> To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 12:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Flattening the
> Table
> 
> 
> i have heard from a few mouthpiece refacers that
> getting it is desirable to have a slight concavity
> in the middle of the table, and that you can see
> this slight concavity in the desirable handmade
> pieces of yore... has anyone heard of this? anyone
> have more info? 
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/6/06, Edward McLean
> <ewmclean@...> wrote:
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Wil
> Swindler" <wjswindler@...> 
> 
> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello all - I am new to the group and very new
> to mouthpiece working in 
> > general. To get started as I build up my tools
> I've begun working on 
> > flattening the tables on some of my junk
> pieces, but I'm not really 
> > sure what I'm doing. I have a vague idea about
> sanding it against 
> > glass and reading the light and dark spots but
> I definitely can't judge 
> > the results with any certainty. Any advice on
> 1) how to find the 
> > high/low spots, and 2) the best method for
> getting it flat and knowing 
> > that its flat. Thanks to all who might
> respond!
> > 
> > Wil Swindler
> >
> 
> Hello Wil & welcome to the group. I am fairly
> new myself, but use a
> steel rule edge, both across and lengthwise on
> the table whilst
> holding up to the light. This gives a good idea
> of any humps or
> hollows that may require attention.
> As I am not an expert, I will leave the method
> of correcting these to
> others. However, I think you will find full
> details somewhere in
> previous posts. 
> I started, by reading all the posts from number
> one. 
> Refacing can be very satisfying when you get it
> right and I find it
> slightly addictive. Enjoy. Eddie. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> matthew august stohrer
> www.stohrerwoodwinds.com 
> 
> 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


         


Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
		http://www.saxgourmet.com
Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
           http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952

Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
http://www.saxrax.com 
For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
 		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Everyone is raving about the  all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

I think the table should be perfectly flat.  Ralph Morgan is of the same opinion.  I think that properly finished reeds are flat and they should mate up with the table.


Ed Svoboda
www.chicagomouthpieces.com

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Paul C." <tenorman1952@...>
> That is what was explained to me, too.
>    
>   Paul
> 
> david schottle <saxcat2001@...> wrote:
>           My understanding of the concave portion is because the
> MPCs are machine faced.
> The heat causes the area to expand, causing more
> material to be removed.
> Once it cools, you an "intentional" depression.
> 
> David S.
> 
> --- Toby <kymarto123@...> wrote:
> 
> > Many mpc makers make the center of the table
> > slightly concave, basically, in my understanding, as
> > a sort of insurance against warped reeds. The
> > thought is that if the bottom of the reed is
> > slightly convex, the high spot will keep the reed
> > edges from contacting the table edges and thus keep
> > the reed from sealing well. I personally don't
> > believe that it is necessary.
> > 
> > Toby
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: Matthew August Stohrer 
> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 12:05 PM
> > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Flattening the
> > Table
> > 
> > 
> > i have heard from a few mouthpiece refacers that
> > getting it is desirable to have a slight concavity
> > in the middle of the table, and that you can see
> > this slight concavity in the desirable handmade
> > pieces of yore... has anyone heard of this? anyone
> > have more info? 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 7/6/06, Edward McLean
> > <ewmclean@...> wrote:
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Wil
> > Swindler" <wjswindler@...> 
> > 
> > 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello all - I am new to the group and very new
> > to mouthpiece working in 
> > > general. To get started as I build up my tools
> > I've begun working on 
> > > flattening the tables on some of my junk
> > pieces, but I'm not really 
> > > sure what I'm doing. I have a vague idea about
> > sanding it against 
> > > glass and reading the light and dark spots but
> > I definitely can't judge 
> > > the results with any certainty. Any advice on
> > 1) how to find the 
> > > high/low spots, and 2) the best method for
> > getting it flat and knowing 
> > > that its flat. Thanks to all who might
> > respond!
> > > 
> > > Wil Swindler
> > >
> > 
> > Hello Wil & welcome to the group. I am fairly
> > new myself, but use a
> > steel rule edge, both across and lengthwise on
> > the table whilst
> > holding up to the light. This gives a good idea
> > of any humps or
> > hollows that may require attention.
> > As I am not an expert, I will leave the method
> > of correcting these to
> > others. However, I think you will find full
> > details somewhere in
> > previous posts. 
> > I started, by reading all the posts from number
> > one. 
> > Refacing can be very satisfying when you get it
> > right and I find it
> > slightly addictive. Enjoy. Eddie. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > matthew august stohrer
> > www.stohrerwoodwinds.com 
> > 
> > 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> 
> 
>          
> 
> 
> Link to Paul's articles from Main page of "Saxgourmet":
> 		http://www.saxgourmet.com
> Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
>            http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
> 
> Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX products from 
> http://www.saxrax.com 
> For SAXRAX products, email Paul at saxraxus@...
>  		
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
 Everyone is raving about the  all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

This is what I use as a straight edge to check a table's flattness:  http://wttool.com/p/1289-0410
   
  It is cheap and very well made.  I highly recommend it.
   
  Brad
  www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
   
  

Edward McLean <ewmclean@...> wrote:
          --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Wil Swindler" <wjswindler@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello all - I am new to the group and very new to mouthpiece working in 
> general. To get started as I build up my tools I've begun working on 
> flattening the tables on some of my junk pieces, but I'm not really 
> sure what I'm doing. I have a vague idea about sanding it against 
> glass and reading the light and dark spots but I definitely can't judge 
> the results with any certainty. Any advice on 1) how to find the 
> high/low spots, and 2) the best method for getting it flat and knowing 
> that its flat. Thanks to all who might respond!
> 
> Wil Swindler
>
Hello Wil & welcome to the group. I am fairly new myself, but use a
steel rule edge, both across and lengthwise on the table whilst
holding up to the light. This gives a good idea of any humps or
hollows that may require attention.
As I am not an expert, I will leave the method of correcting these to
others. However, I think you will find full details somewhere in
previous posts. 
I started, by reading all the posts from number one. 
Refacing can be very satisfying when you get it right and I find it
slightly addictive. Enjoy. Eddie. 



         

 		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

--- "Paul C." <tenorman1952@...> wrote:

> That is what was explained to me, too.
>    
>   Paul
> 
> david schottle <saxcat2001@...> wrote:
>           My understanding of the concave portion is
> because the
> MPCs are machine faced.
> The heat causes the area to expand, causing more
> material to be removed.
> Once it cools, you an "intentional" depression.
> 
> David S.
> 
> --- Toby <kymarto123@...> wrote:
> 
> > Many mpc makers make the center of the table
> > slightly concave, basically, in my understanding,
> as
> > a sort of insurance against warped reeds. The
> > thought is that if the bottom of the reed is
> > slightly convex, the high spot will keep the reed
> > edges from contacting the table edges and thus
> keep
> > the reed from sealing well. I personally don't
> > believe that it is necessary.
> > 
> > Toby
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: Matthew August Stohrer 
> > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 12:05 PM
> > Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Flattening the
> > Table
> > 
> > 
> > i have heard from a few mouthpiece refacers that
> > getting it is desirable to have a slight concavity
> > in the middle of the table, and that you can see
> > this slight concavity in the desirable handmade
> > pieces of yore... has anyone heard of this? anyone
> > have more info? 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 7/6/06, Edward McLean
> > <ewmclean@...> wrote:
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Wil
> > Swindler" <wjswindler@...> 
> > 
> > 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello all - I am new to the group and very new
> > to mouthpiece working in 
> > > general. To get started as I build up my tools
> > I've begun working on 
> > > flattening the tables on some of my junk
> > pieces, but I'm not really 
> > > sure what I'm doing. I have a vague idea about
> > sanding it against 
> > > glass and reading the light and dark spots but
> > I definitely can't judge 
> > > the results with any certainty. Any advice on
> > 1) how to find the 
> > > high/low spots, and 2) the best method for
> > getting it flat and knowing 
> > > that its flat. Thanks to all who might
> > respond!
> > > 
> > > Wil Swindler
> > >
> > 
> > Hello Wil & welcome to the group. I am fairly
> > new myself, but use a
> > steel rule edge, both across and lengthwise on
> > the table whilst
> > holding up to the light. This gives a good idea
> > of any humps or
> > hollows that may require attention.
> > As I am not an expert, I will leave the method
> > of correcting these to
> > others. However, I think you will find full
> > details somewhere in
> > previous posts. 
> > I started, by reading all the posts from number
> > one. 
> > Refacing can be very satisfying when you get it
> > right and I find it
> > slightly addictive. Enjoy. Eddie. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > matthew august stohrer
> > www.stohrerwoodwinds.com 
> > 
> > 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> 
> I have also seen this, and I agree it is not
necessary, but do yorself a favor and make sure you
take care of your reed too. If the table is not flat,
make it so.  Many of us think a mouthpiece is faulty
when the reed is the real culprit.  By the way, The
Art of Saxophone Playing by Larry Teal has an
excellent section on reeds and in general a fine
resource for all players of the sax.  Check it out.

Good luck,

BK 
>          
> 
> 
> Link to Paul's articles from Main page of
> "Saxgourmet":
> 		http://www.saxgourmet.com
> Listen to Paul's MP3's and view saxophone photos at:
>            http://briefcase.yahoo.com/tenorman1952
> 
> Paul Coats is the sole US importer of SAXRAX
> products from 
> http://www.saxrax.com 
> For SAXRAX products, email Paul at
> saxraxus@...
>  		
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Everyone is raving about the  all-new Yahoo! Mail
Beta.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

--- david schottle <saxcat2001@...> wrote:

> My understanding of the concave portion is because the
> MPCs are machine faced.
> The heat  causes the area to expand, causing more
> material to be removed.
> Once it cools, you [get] an "intentional" depression.
> 

If you dont want to fix it, market it.

The concavity from mass production methods can be seen in modern Link STMs.
 Other makes have it too.  These tables are concave with a high heel. 
These tables are not flat around the perimeter where the reed should be
sealed.  Once you take the heel down by hand, you sometimes are left with a
low spot in the middle of the table.  The facing curve get shorter since
the 3 points contacting the sandpaper are the heel, and the 2 side rails at
the base of the window "U".  Since the side rails are thinner, more
material will come off of them than the heel.  If you need a shorter facing
curve or a smaller tip, this is OK.  If not, lean on the heel more until
most of it is gone.

But some hand facers intentionally put a cavity in the middle of the table.
 Some add it at the end flattening the table, some at the start (or both). 
I would recommend trying to add one if you are having a problem with a
convex table that you can not correct.

Flat vs concave is not a big deal as long as the reed seals decently. 
Perfect sealing is not that important either.  Some long facing curves leak
out the sides but play great if the facing curve is well constructed.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[ Attachment content not displayed ]

Keith wrote:

> The concavity from mass production methods can be seen in modern Link STMs.
>  Other makes have it too.  These tables are concave with a high heel.
> These tables are not flat around the perimeter where the reed should be
> sealed.

I noticed a concavity like this on my Ponzol soprano HR mouthpiece. It could
be seen by looking at the side profile of the mouthpiece. I wrote to Peter
Ponzol inquiring about this, although I only described it as a "slight
concavity" of the table.

He graciously, replied, albeit briefly, implying that the concavity was
deliberate

> When a reed gets wet it tends to swell,  if it doesn't have someplace to go
> it will push away from the table.

(that was all he wrote)

I use Fibracells, which don't swell AFAIK. Because at the time that
particular mouthpiece seemed to be playing less well (purchased new about
2-3 years earlier), I wondered if I was seeing some dimensional instability.
(I also later found some rail asymmetry.) In any case, I flattened the table
by taking down the heel, which seemed to improve things.

Barry

Machines are great at many things.  Making a flat table on a mouthpiece is not one of them.  There's no substitute for a person who knows what they are doing with the right tools for the job.


Ed Svoboda
Chicago Mouthpieces
 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Barry Levine" <barrylevine@...>
> Keith wrote:
> 
> > The concavity from mass production methods can be seen in modern Link STMs.
> >  Other makes have it too.  These tables are concave with a high heel.
> > These tables are not flat around the perimeter where the reed should be
> > sealed.
> 
> I noticed a concavity like this on my Ponzol soprano HR mouthpiece. It could
> be seen by looking at the side profile of the mouthpiece. I wrote to Peter
> Ponzol inquiring about this, although I only described it as a "slight
> concavity" of the table.
> 
> He graciously, replied, albeit briefly, implying that the concavity was
> deliberate
> 
> > When a reed gets wet it tends to swell,  if it doesn't have someplace to go
> > it will push away from the table.
> 
> (that was all he wrote)
> 
> I use Fibracells, which don't swell AFAIK. Because at the time that
> particular mouthpiece seemed to be playing less well (purchased new about
> 2-3 years earlier), I wondered if I was seeing some dimensional instability.
> (I also later found some rail asymmetry.) In any case, I flattened the table
> by taking down the heel, which seemed to improve things.
> 
> Barry

;----- Original Message ----- 
;From: esvoboda@...
;To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com ; MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
;Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 11:45 PM
;Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Flattening the Table


;I think the table should be perfectly flat. Ralph Morgan is of the same 
opinion. I think that properly finished reeds
;are flat and they should mate up with the table.


That being said, the main thing you want is for the edges of the reed to 
seat flat against the table and not leak, so a slight concavity is a bit of 
"insurance" in case there is a high spot on the bottom of the reed stock.

But as Keith points out, even a bit of leakage doesn't really affect 
anything.

Toby 

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Barry Levine"
<barrylevine@...> wrote:
>
> Keith wrote:
> 
> > The concavity from mass production methods can be seen in modern
Link STMs.
> >  Other makes have it too.  These tables are concave with a high heel.
> > These tables are not flat around the perimeter where the reed
should be
> > sealed.
> 
> I noticed a concavity like this on my Ponzol soprano HR mouthpiece.
It could
 > be seen by looking at the side profile of the mouthpiece. I wrote
to Peter
> Ponzol inquiring about this, although I only described it as a "slight
> concavity" of the table.
**************************************************************************

  The idea that the hollow on a table enables reed expansion when wet
due to osmosis, seems to me questionable. The stock is a long way from
the wet tip end.
  
Soaking the entire reed before use will produce this expansion, but I
have yet to see a reed, wet in this area after playing.
  
A reed cannot push away from a flat table, if held against that table
by the ligature, which will also resist migration of moisture by
constriction.
  
  If there is no hollow, it cannot swell.  
    Do we really want it to ?                    Eddie

****************************************************************************

                


> He graciously, replied, albeit briefly, implying that the concavity was
> deliberate
> 
> > When a reed gets wet it tends to swell,  if it doesn't have
someplace to go
> > it will push away from the table.
> 
> (that was all he wrote)
> 
> I use Fibracells, which don't swell AFAIK. Because at the time that
> particular mouthpiece seemed to be playing less well (purchased new
about
> 2-3 years earlier), I wondered if I was seeing some dimensional
instability.
> (I also later found some rail asymmetry.) In any case, I flattened
the table
> by taking down the heel, which seemed to improve things.
> 
> Barry
>

I recently greatly improved a HR link 8 by doing nothing apart from
flattening the table and *barely* retouching the rails. The "hollow"
as you're calling it was so severe that the midpoint of the rails and
very end of the heel formed a visible arc (I could easily slip a
.0015" feeler through under the table) when the mouthpiece was pressed
to glass.

Prior to flattening, I noticed that my reeds would give out after only
an hour or so on this mouthpiece. Also, there was a noticeable warp in
the edges of the reed at about the point where the rails pushed
against it before curving away.

After flattening, the rails had significant flat spots from the
flattening, so I used some 1500 grit lightly to ease the beginning of
the curve. The tone and stability is a little better, and the reeds
are lasting MUCH longer. It's a little brighter because some of the
openness is gone due to losing the "hump" off the side rails.

Is this a unique experience?

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Edward McLean" <ewmclean@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Barry Levine"
> <barrylevine@> wrote:
> >
> > Keith wrote:
> > 
> > > The concavity from mass production methods can be seen in modern
> Link STMs.
> > >  Other makes have it too.  These tables are concave with a high
heel.
> > > These tables are not flat around the perimeter where the reed
> should be
> > > sealed.
> > 
> > I noticed a concavity like this on my Ponzol soprano HR mouthpiece.
> It could
>  > be seen by looking at the side profile of the mouthpiece. I wrote
> to Peter
> > Ponzol inquiring about this, although I only described it as a "slight
> > concavity" of the table.
>
**************************************************************************
> 
>   The idea that the hollow on a table enables reed expansion when wet
> due to osmosis, seems to me questionable. The stock is a long way from
> the wet tip end.
>   
> Soaking the entire reed before use will produce this expansion, but I
> have yet to see a reed, wet in this area after playing.
>   
> A reed cannot push away from a flat table, if held against that table
> by the ligature, which will also resist migration of moisture by
> constriction.
>   
>   If there is no hollow, it cannot swell.  
>     Do we really want it to ?                    Eddie
> 
>
****************************************************************************
> 
>                 
> 
> 
> > He graciously, replied, albeit briefly, implying that the
concavity was
> > deliberate
> > 
> > > When a reed gets wet it tends to swell,  if it doesn't have
> someplace to go
> > > it will push away from the table.
> > 
> > (that was all he wrote)
> > 
> > I use Fibracells, which don't swell AFAIK. Because at the time that
> > particular mouthpiece seemed to be playing less well (purchased new
> about
> > 2-3 years earlier), I wondered if I was seeing some dimensional
> instability.
> > (I also later found some rail asymmetry.) In any case, I flattened
> the table
> > by taking down the heel, which seemed to improve things.
> > 
> > Barry
> >
>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: dcb_76
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 9:36 AM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Flattening the Table


I recently greatly improved a HR link 8 by doing nothing apart from
flattening the table and *barely* retouching the rails. The "hollow"
as you're calling it was so severe that the midpoint of the rails and
very end of the heel formed a visible arc (I could easily slip a
.0015" feeler through under the table) when the mouthpiece was pressed
to glass.

I think that the hollow that we are normally referring to is a concave spot 
in the middle of the table. The four edges of the table should always be 
flat - there should certainly not be a be an arc between the back end of the 
table and the rail break!

Toby 

Not at all unique... That is what makes us money doing this crazy thing.
   
  Try telling a non-musician that you reface woodwind mouthpieces.  Tell them how you do it.  Watch their eyes cross just before they change the subject or walk away.
   
  Paul

dcb_76 <dcb_76@...> wrote:
          I recently greatly improved a HR link 8 by doing nothing apart from
flattening the table and *barely* retouching the rails. The "hollow"
as you're calling it was so severe that the midpoint of the rails and
very end of the heel formed a visible arc (I could easily slip a
.0015" feeler through under the table) when the mouthpiece was pressed
to glass.

Prior to flattening, I noticed that my reeds would give out after only
an hour or so on this mouthpiece. Also, there was a noticeable warp in
the edges of the reed at about the point where the rails pushed
against it before curving away.

After flattening, the rails had significant flat spots from the
flattening, so I used some 1500 grit lightly to ease the beginning of
the curve. The tone and stability is a little better, and the reeds
are lasting MUCH longer. It's a little brighter because some of the
openness is gone due to losing the "hump" off the side rails.

Is this a unique experience?

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Edward McLean" <ewmclean@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Barry Levine"
> <barrylevine@> wrote:
> >
> > Keith wrote:
> > 
> > > The concavity from mass production methods can be seen in modern
> Link STMs.
> > > Other makes have it too. These tables are concave with a high
heel.
> > > These tables are not flat around the perimeter where the reed
> should be
> > > sealed.
> > 
> > I noticed a concavity like this on my Ponzol soprano HR mouthpiece.
> It could
> > be seen by looking at the side profile of the mouthpiece. I wrote
> to Peter
> > Ponzol inquiring about this, although I only described it as a "slight
> > concavity" of the table.
>
**************************************************************************
> 
> The idea that the hollow on a table enables reed expansion when wet
> due to osmosis, seems to me questionable. The stock is a long way from
> the wet tip end.
> 
> Soaking the entire reed before use will produce this expansion, but I
> have yet to see a reed, wet in this area after playing.
> 
> A reed cannot push away from a flat table, if held against that table
> by the ligature, which will also resist migration of moisture by
> constriction.
> 
> If there is no hollow, it cannot swell. 
> Do we really want it to ? Eddie
> 
>
****************************************************************************
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > He graciously, replied, albeit briefly, implying that the
concavity was
> > deliberate
> > 
> > > When a reed gets wet it tends to swell, if it doesn't have
> someplace to go
> > > it will push away from the table.
> > 
> > (that was all he wrote)
> > 
> > I use Fibracells, which don't swell AFAIK. Because at the time that
> > particular mouthpiece seemed to be playing less well (purchased new
> about
> > 2-3 years earlier), I wondered if I was seeing some dimensional
> instability.
> > (I also later found some rail asymmetry.) In any case, I flattened
> the table
> > by taking down the heel, which seemed to improve things.
> > 
> > Barry
> >
>



         


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>   Try telling a non-musician that you reface woodwind mouthpieces.  Tell
> them how you do it.  Watch their eyes cross just before they change the
> subject or walk away.
>    

I've had a few non-musicians fake some interest.  But most still think that
a mouthpiece is like a hex nut.

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> - there should certainly not be a be an arc between the back end of
> the table and the rail break!
> 

I agree.  But this is consistently present on every new STM I see.  Others
have it too.  Due to mass production methods, it is more common to find
than the concavity some refacers put in the middle of the table.  

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