I think I have read that what we call "hard rubber" can have as little 
as 10% HR and the rest plastic.  Anyone read something similar?

One way to test HR from pure plastic is to look at its sawdust.  If you 
do not want to sand the facing (yet), draw the shank end across some 
fine sand paper.  Black plastic dust looks pinkish-purple.  HR looks 
light brown.  But I do not know if this works for all mixes.

I recently worked a Yana MP which was very hard and crispy.  It seemed 
harder than most vintage HR pieces but it may not have been.  I did not 
do a side-by-side test.  Most Woodwind Steel Ebonites are very hard 
too.  I do not think there is any steel in them.  It is just a HR 
formulation that is very hard.

I also recently worked a Beechler Diamond Inlay HR mouthpiece.  This 
material is downright soft and "punky".  I've worked on a few of them 
and I believe they were all that way.  Care must be taken to not 
overshoot the facing curve targets.

Anyone else notice some harder/softer than average HRs?

Yes, I have found a lot of older pieces to be softer and its just a 
guess but Im assuming the HR content is higher.  Still the current 
babbit pieces sand out light brown.  I have found some pastic to be 
white as well.  This was specific to Runyon so perhaps its a 
different material altogether...perhaps acrylic.  Some of the old 
pieces are real soft and at times like you mention, almost too soft 
to work without extra care.


--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Bradbury" 
<kwbradbury@...> wrote:
>
> I think I have read that what we call "hard rubber" can have as 
little 
> as 10% HR and the rest plastic.  Anyone read something similar?
> 
> One way to test HR from pure plastic is to look at its sawdust.  If 
you 
> do not want to sand the facing (yet), draw the shank end across 
some 
> fine sand paper.  Black plastic dust looks pinkish-purple.  HR 
looks 
> light brown.  But I do not know if this works for all mixes.
> 
> I recently worked a Yana MP which was very hard and crispy.  It 
seemed 
> harder than most vintage HR pieces but it may not have been.  I did 
not 
> do a side-by-side test.  Most Woodwind Steel Ebonites are very hard 
> too.  I do not think there is any steel in them.  It is just a HR 
> formulation that is very hard.
> 
> I also recently worked a Beechler Diamond Inlay HR mouthpiece.  
This 
> material is downright soft and "punky".  I've worked on a few of 
them 
> and I believe they were all that way.  Care must be taken to not 
> overshoot the facing curve targets.
> 
> Anyone else notice some harder/softer than average HRs?
>

Many "hard rubber" mouthpieces are actually ABS, some with no rubber, 
some with a little rubber dust mixed in.

Paul

Keith Bradbury wrote:

> I think I have read that what we call "hard rubber" can have as little
> as 10% HR and the rest plastic.  Anyone read something similar?
>
> One way to test HR from pure plastic is to look at its sawdust.  If you
> do not want to sand the facing (yet), draw the shank end across some
> fine sand paper.  Black plastic dust looks pinkish-purple.  HR looks
> light brown.  But I do not know if this works for all mixes.
>
> I recently worked a Yana MP which was very hard and crispy.  It seemed
> harder than most vintage HR pieces but it may not have been.  I did not
> do a side-by-side test.  Most Woodwind Steel Ebonites are very hard
> too.  I do not think there is any steel in them.  It is just a HR
> formulation that is very hard.
>
> I also recently worked a Beechler Diamond Inlay HR mouthpiece.  This
> material is downright soft and "punky".  I've worked on a few of them
> and I believe they were all that way.  Care must be taken to not
> overshoot the facing curve targets.
>
> Anyone else notice some harder/softer than average HRs?
>
>
>
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see 
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
>
>
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The Runyon molded mouthpieces are made from acrylic with a percentage of 
synthetic rubber.  The percentage and type of rubber is proprietary, and 
highly guarded.  I can say this... I knew Mr. Runyon since the early 
70's, and quite closely associated with the company for the last 15 
years, and I don't know.

I can tell you this... the material was engineered to have the same 
"flex modulus" as high quality hard rubber. Having the same "flex 
modulus" means this material vibrated the same as hard rubber.  Samples 
of high quality hard rubber was obtained to find the optimum flex modulus.

This material is more stable than hard rubber, and the facing will not 
wear from the reed beating on it.  We have all seen mouthpieces so worn 
that the side rails were rounded off and the tip rail could not be 
seen... just worn down to the baffle.  A few years ago I measured the 
mouthpiece that Santy played most often, a Custom (SR) 7.  It measured 
exacty like a new Custom 7.  Also, this material is more resistant to 
chipping and cracking than hard rubber.  Some instrument manufacturers 
have tried to buy the formula to use for plastic clarinet bodies.  It is 
a very good material, even if it is "plastic".

Paul

sigmund451 wrote:

> Yes, I have found a lot of older pieces to be softer and its just a
> guess but Im assuming the HR content is higher.  Still the current
> babbit pieces sand out light brown.  I have found some pastic to be
> white as well.  This was specific to Runyon so perhaps its a
> different material altogether...perhaps acrylic.  Some of the old
> pieces are real soft and at times like you mention, almost too soft
> to work without extra care.
>
>
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Bradbury"
> <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
> >
> > I think I have read that what we call "hard rubber" can have as
> little
> > as 10% HR and the rest plastic.  Anyone read something similar?
> >
> > One way to test HR from pure plastic is to look at its sawdust.  If
> you
> > do not want to sand the facing (yet), draw the shank end across
> some
> > fine sand paper.  Black plastic dust looks pinkish-purple.  HR
> looks
> > light brown.  But I do not know if this works for all mixes.
> >
> > I recently worked a Yana MP which was very hard and crispy.  It
> seemed
> > harder than most vintage HR pieces but it may not have been.  I did
> not
> > do a side-by-side test.  Most Woodwind Steel Ebonites are very hard
> > too.  I do not think there is any steel in them.  It is just a HR
> > formulation that is very hard.
> >
> > I also recently worked a Beechler Diamond Inlay HR mouthpiece. 
> This
> > material is downright soft and "punky".  I've worked on a few of
> them
> > and I believe they were all that way.  Care must be taken to not
> > overshoot the facing curve targets.
> >
> > Anyone else notice some harder/softer than average HRs?
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see 
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>     *  Visit your group "MouthpieceWork
>       <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork>" on the web.
>        
>     *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>        MouthpieceWork-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>       <mailto:MouthpieceWork-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
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>       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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>

Paul

 

Having the same flex modulus means you will have the same vibrating
frequencies (with the same dimensions of mpc), but you can have changes
in the amount of the generated harmonics as the two materials can have
different damping effects (in absolute value and also related to
frequency, this is given by a parameter called "Tg"). So one mpc can be
more brighter (i.e. less damping) and the other one darker (i.e. more
with damping for example), even if the own frequencies are identical
(because the flex modulus is the same)

 

cheers

 

Jacques  

 


"I can tell you this... the material was engineered to have the same
"flex modulus" as high quality hard rubber. Having the same "flex
modulus" means this material vibrated the same as hard rubber.  Samples
of high quality hard rubber was obtained to find the optimum flex
modulus.. "

 

  _____  

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "sigmund451" <sigmund451@...>
wrote:
>
> Yes, I have found a lot of older pieces to be softer and its just a 
> guess but Im assuming the HR content is higher.  Still the current 
> babbit pieces sand out light brown.  I have found some pastic to be 
> white as well.  This was specific to Runyon so perhaps its a 
> different material altogether...perhaps acrylic.  Some of the old 
> pieces are real soft and at times like you mention, almost too soft 
> to work without extra care.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Many vintage rubber 'pieces have a high Sulpher content. 
Brown discolouration takes place with ageing.
Sanding gives off a pungent odour.             Eddie
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Bradbury" 
> <kwbradbury@> wrote:
> >
> > I think I have read that what we call "hard rubber" can have as 
> little 
> > as 10% HR and the rest plastic.  Anyone read something similar?
> > 
> > One way to test HR from pure plastic is to look at its sawdust.  If 
> you 
> > do not want to sand the facing (yet), draw the shank end across 
> some 
> > fine sand paper.  Black plastic dust looks pinkish-purple.  HR 
> looks 
> > light brown.  But I do not know if this works for all mixes.
> > 
> > I recently worked a Yana MP which was very hard and crispy.  It 
> seemed 
> > harder than most vintage HR pieces but it may not have been.  I did 
> not 
> > do a side-by-side test.  Most Woodwind Steel Ebonites are very hard 
> > too.  I do not think there is any steel in them.  It is just a HR 
> > formulation that is very hard.
> > 
> > I also recently worked a Beechler Diamond Inlay HR mouthpiece.  
> This 
> > material is downright soft and "punky".  I've worked on a few of 
> them 
> > and I believe they were all that way.  Care must be taken to not 
> > overshoot the facing curve targets.
> > 
> > Anyone else notice some harder/softer than average HRs?
> >
>

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "sigmund451" <sigmund451@...> 
wrote:
>
> Yes, I have found a lot of older pieces to be softer...

I have found a few older pieces to be so soft as to be annoying to 
work on.  I think these pieces had soft spots in them.  While working 
on the facing, one rail would cut more than the other.  

One good standout are the Bundy mouthpieces.  These are fabulous 
blanks.  I think the Bundy name holds them back.  

Checking the hardness of hard rubber can easily be done using a Durometer, or Hardness Tester.  I use one regularly and it measures in the �D� scale.  Soft rubbers use a different scale: �A.�  There are many different materials and scales and hardness testing is a very interesting science/art.  To learn more, one can Google �hardness testing� and read a lot of information that can be helpful in determining what method/s would work for your particular needs.  
   
  A mouthpiece�s hardness is not directly correlative with the sulfur content.  Indeed sulfur in soft rubbers is much lower in content than hard rubbers, but the cure is very important too.  When researching hard rubber I made many batches of rubber using exactly the same formula (with a very high sulfur content) but different cures.  The differences in my results were astonishing.  The shorter cures produced softer material (easily indented with my finger nail) and the longer cures produced harder stable material.
   
  Temperature is also very important.  If the temperature is higher the cure needn�t be as long to produce hard rubber, but duration and temperature does have influence over the crosslinking process and results in other physical characteristics (undetectable by the naked eye, but apparent using other testing equipment) that are important in great mouthpiece material.
   
  Once the cure is determined, physical characteristics can be manipulated with formula alterations.  Or on the other hand, once a formula has been determined, physical characteristics can be manipulated with cure alterations.  Everything affects everything.  This can be very frustrating, but quite liberating too.
   
  The flex modulus is only one of many physical characteristics of how a mouthpiece�s material affects the playing experience.  How a reed reacts to the hard rubber�s visco-elastic framework is very important in sound and feel.  
   
  A mouthpiece�s color as seen on the sandpaper is a result of its chemical formula.  I have worked on Penzel Mueller plastic mouthpieces that sanded bright pink!  Typically plastic sands white (Runyon) or gray (Bari) but anything is possible.  I think Runyon�s plastic is the best sounding plastic I have tried.  I disagree with its stability however.  I have found it to not hold a facing nearly as well as good hard rubber.  
   
  Hard rubber usually sands from light yellowish-tan (sulfur color) to an amber brown.  Sometimes it sands to a color like asphalt, but this rare (typically from old mouthpieces with a high carbon black content).  I have also seen this on Babbitt bass clarinet blanks recently�
   
  Please note that hard rubber changes over time as a result of its oxidation process.  Sulfur blooms to the material�s surface causing a much softer surface layer.  Typically when refacing mouthpieces, one faces out the soft, brownish/greenish/grayish surface layer and works with the �heart� material that has not been exposed to the affects of hard rubber oxidation.  This will create a stable facing that should last for years of hard use when properly stored.
   
  On a refacing note, I have found that it is important that both rails be of the same thickness when opening the facing.  If one rail is fatter than the other, the thinner rail will open more than the fatter rail causing an asymmetrical facing.  It may appear that the fatter rail has harder material, but it is actually due to the larger surface area of the fatter rail and not a variation in its hardness.
   
  I agree with Keith, old Bundy mouthpeices are very good.
   
  Brad Behn
  www.clarinetmouthpiece.com


Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:  --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "sigmund451" <sigmund451@...> 
wrote:
>
> Yes, I have found a lot of older pieces to be softer...

I have found a few older pieces to be so soft as to be annoying to 
work on.  I think these pieces had soft spots in them.  While working 
on the facing, one rail would cut more than the other.  

One good standout are the Bundy mouthpieces.  These are fabulous 
blanks.  I think the Bundy name holds them back.  






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Thanks for your post Brad.  It is chocked full of useful information.

Guys check out his site if you want to see how hard rubber is made.

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Many TKS, Brad, fine info about a wide-ranging subject, it will be of  
educational and mp working value to the various makers of our good mps, I'm  sure.  
Knowing a bit of chemistry, but next to nothing of the desireable  
characteristics of hard rubbers, I found myself out of my depth rather  quickly.  I have 
largely gone [back] to glasses, Pomarico-mades, some  refaced by Dave 
Spiegelthal for bass and alto cl which seem to do well for my  semi-pro playing.  Do 
you do anything in "crystal" [high lead] glass  work?  I enjoy learning, even 
at 86. Regards,  Don

Don,
   
  I have refaced many crystal and glass mouthpieces and have found the two to be different.  Glass mouthpieces like Obrien and old Selmer pieces were made from softer material (probably pop bottles recycled) but crystal pieces by Pomarico (they made the old Vandoren crystal offerings too) are a harder material.
   
  I prefer the sound of the glass mouthpieces probably due in part to their designs.  But both crystal and glass mouthpieces typicaly come with very bad facings. Obrien pieces also had deep table concavities and a deeper baffle.
   
  When I reface either glass or crystal, my goal is to improve the given facing rather than totally change it.  Typically they come with asymmetrical facings so I balance them and take a bit of the resistance out of the inefficient facing that the factory made.
   
  Due to glass or crystal's mass, and resonance characteristics, I have found they tend to play with more resistance than hard rubber.  As a result, I would recommend anyone trying these types of mouthpieces to use free and vibrant reeds.  Generally a glass/crystal mouthpiece matched to the "correct" reed can produce beautiful results....assuming the facing is good.  I find the tone to be a little more flute-like and one can produce a beautiful floating legato pianissimo dolce quality with ease when compared to other materials.  A great clarinetist that has been using Pomarico crystal for years is Giora Feidman.  His artistry is amazing and he has and incredible piano dolce quality unlike any other clarinet player I have ever heard.
   
  Don perhaps you can share some of your observations about crystal or glass.  I know you have been a big fan.  Back in the 50s-60s they seemed very popular, did you start on them at that time?
   
  Best wishes,
  Brad Behn
  www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
  

dberger19@... wrote:
      Many TKS, Brad, fine info about a wide-ranging subject, it will be of educational and mp working value to the various makers of our good mps, I'm sure.  Knowing a bit of chemistry, but next to nothing of the desireable characteristics of hard rubbers, I found myself out of my depth rather quickly.  I have largely gone [back] to glasses, Pomarico-mades, some refaced by Dave Spiegelthal for bass and alto cl which seem to do well for my semi-pro playing.  Do you do anything in "crystal" [high lead] glass work?  I enjoy learning, even at 86. Regards, Don


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Thanks, Brad... this is one of the best explanations of what's what with 
hard rubber I have read.

Paul

Brad Behn wrote:

> Checking the hardness of hard rubber can easily be done using a 
> Durometer, or Hardness Tester.  I use one regularly and it measures in 
> the "D" scale.  Soft rubbers use a different scale: "A."  There are 
> many different materials and scales and hardness testing is a very 
> interesting science/art.  To learn more, one can Google "hardness 
> testing" and read a lot of information that can be helpful in 
> determining what method/s would work for your particular needs. 
>  
> A mouthpiece's hardness is not directly correlative with the sulfur 
> content.  Indeed sulfur in soft rubbers is much lower in content than 
> hard rubbers, but the cure is very important too.  When researching 
> hard rubber I made many batches of rubber using exactly the same 
> formula (with a very high sulfur content) but different cures.  The 
> differences in my results were astonishing.  The shorter cures 
> produced softer material (easily indented with my finger nail) and the 
> longer cures produced harder stable material.
>  
> Temperature is also very important.  If the temperature is higher the 
> cure needn't be as long to produce hard rubber, but duration and 
> temperature does have influence over the crosslinking process and 
> results in other physical characteristics (undetectable by the naked 
> eye, but apparent using other testing equipment) that are important in 
> great mouthpiece material.
>  
> Once the cure is determined, physical characteristics can be 
> manipulated with formula alterations.  Or on the other hand, once a 
> formula has been determined, physical characteristics can be 
> manipulated with cure alterations.  Everything affects everything.  
> This can be very frustrating, but quite liberating too.
>  
> The flex modulus is only one of many physical characteristics of how a 
> mouthpiece's material affects the playing experience.  How a reed 
> reacts to the hard rubber's visco-elastic framework is very important 
> in sound and feel. 
>  
> A mouthpiece's color as seen on the sandpaper is a result of its 
> chemical formula.  I have worked on Penzel Mueller plastic mouthpieces 
> that sanded bright pink!  Typically plastic sands white (Runyon) or 
> gray (Bari) but anything is possible.  I think Runyon's plastic is the 
> best sounding plastic I have tried.  I disagree with its stability 
> however.  I have found it to not hold a facing nearly as well as good 
> hard rubber.  
>  
> Hard rubber usually sands from light yellowish-tan (sulfur color) to 
> an amber brown.  Sometimes it sands to a color like asphalt, but this 
> rare (typically from old mouthpieces with a high carbon black 
> content).  I have also seen this on Babbitt bass clarinet blanks 
> recently...
>  
> Please note that hard rubber changes over time as a result of its 
> oxidation process.  Sulfur blooms to the material's surface causing a 
> much softer surface layer.  Typically when refacing mouthpieces, one 
> faces out the soft, brownish/greenish/grayish surface layer and works 
> with the "heart" material that has not been exposed to the affects of 
> hard rubber oxidation.  This will create a stable facing that should 
> last for years of hard use when properly stored.
>  
> On a refacing note, I have found that it is important that both rails 
> be of the same thickness when opening the facing.  If one rail is 
> fatter than the other, the thinner rail will open more than the fatter 
> rail causing an asymmetrical facing.  It may appear that the fatter 
> rail has harder material, but it is actually due to the larger surface 
> area of the fatter rail and not a variation in its hardness.
>  
> I agree with Keith, old Bundy mouthpeices are very good.
>  
> Brad Behn
> www.clarinetmouthpiece.com <http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com>
>
>
> Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> wrote:
>
>     --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "sigmund451" <sigmund451@...>
>     wrote:
>     >
>     > Yes, I have found a lot of older pieces to be softer...
>
>     I have found a few older pieces to be so soft as to be annoying to
>     work on.  I think these pieces had soft spots in them.  While working
>     on the facing, one rail would cut more than the other. 
>
>     One good standout are the Bundy mouthpieces.  These are fabulous
>     blanks.  I think the Bundy name holds them back. 
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
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>
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>
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>
> Tenor saxophone 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Tenor+saxophone&w1=Wind+instrument&w2=Saxophone&w3=Soprano+saxophone&w4=Tenor+saxophone&w5=Clarinet+mouthpiece&c=5&s5&.sig=BGSWr9RvCtmH_IKyc2llcA> 
> 	Clarinet mouthpiece 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Clarinet+mouthpiece&w1=Wind+instrument&w2=Saxophone&w3=Soprano+saxophone&w4=Tenor+saxophone&w5=Clarinet+mouthpiece&c=5&s5&.sig=tFrDLsKSBrG1C63m48jxaw> 
>
>
>
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