Mouthpiece Work / "Flat spot" at the tip of a mouthpiece facing
FROM: saxtek2003 (saxtek@...)
SUBJECT: "Flat spot" at the tip of a mouthpiece facing
I have been a member of this group for quite some time but I have not  posted 
until I took some time to read the extensive list of previous posts. 
 
I have watched several great refacers work on my mouthpieces.  These  people 
include Ben Harrod (Otto Link Pompano Beach), Wolfie Tannebaum (Wolfe  Tayne, 
Guy Hawkins and BARI), Bobby Dukoff, Ralph Morgan, Bennie Bonacio, and  Frank 
Wells.  To a greater or lesser extent, these refacers and  manufacturers use a 
flat  spot near the tip of their facing curves.  I  have not seen this 
tendency discussed to any great extent here.
 
The Erick Brand refacing manual mentions that many good mouthpiece  facings 
are nearly flat from the tip back to the first or even second  feeler gauge.  
Frank Wells, famous for his work for John Coltrane, Eric  Dolphy, Bobby Mintzer 
Mike Smith and too many others to mention here, was a  serious exponent of 
this technique.  Frank would finish his facing  curve with a SIDEWAYS sweep of 
the tip across his sandpaper.  The  angle of the mouthpiece, of course, would 
determine the length of this "flat  spot."
 
From the experienced refacers here, what is your experience with this  
technique?  What results does it yield for you?  What part of the  range of the 
instrument is most affected? How do you go about producing your tip  curve.  
Please - I'm looking for empirical results, not armchair  theory.
FROM: andrewhdonaldson (andrewhdonaldson)
SUBJECT: Re: "Flat spot" at the tip of a mouthpiece facing
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, saxtek@... wrote:
>
> I have been a member of this group for quite some time but I have
not  posted 
> until I took some time to read the extensive list of previous posts. 
>  
> I have watched several great refacers work on my mouthpieces.  These
 people 
> include Ben Harrod (Otto Link Pompano Beach), Wolfie Tannebaum
(Wolfe  Tayne, 
> Guy Hawkins and BARI), Bobby Dukoff, Ralph Morgan, Bennie Bonacio,
and  Frank 
> Wells.  To a greater or lesser extent, these refacers and 
manufacturers use a 
> flat  spot near the tip of their facing curves.  I  have not seen this 
> tendency discussed to any great extent here.
>  
> The Erick Brand refacing manual mentions that many good mouthpiece 
facings 
> are nearly flat from the tip back to the first or even second 
feeler gauge.  
> Frank Wells, famous for his work for John Coltrane, Eric  Dolphy,
Bobby Mintzer 
> Mike Smith and too many others to mention here, was a  serious
exponent of 
> this technique.  Frank would finish his facing  curve with a
SIDEWAYS sweep of 
> the tip across his sandpaper.  The  angle of the mouthpiece, of
course, would 
> determine the length of this "flat  spot."
>  
> From the experienced refacers here, what is your experience with this  
> technique?  What results does it yield for you?  What part of the 
range of the 
> instrument is most affected? How do you go about producing your tip
 curve.  
> Please - I'm looking for empirical results, not armchair  theory.
>


I'm no great expert or authority but my own experience is that a flat
section near the tip gives added brightness to the sound.  Downside
would be slightly more resistance.  Also the palm key notes become
slightly thinner and less rounded.  I found this out from an Otto Link
SUper Tonemaster I bought new which had a suprisingly bright tone, but
rather thin and difficult to control in the high notes, altissimo
impossible.  After I refaced to a complete radial curve it was darker,
but altissimo was restored.
FROM: saxtek2003 (saxtek2003)
SUBJECT: Re: "Flat spot" at the tip of a mouthpiece facing
Not all of the mouthpiece manufacturers/refacers I mentioned before 
used the "flat spot" technique in their everyday facings, yet I noticed 
a tendency to resort to the "flat spot" from many talented craftsmen 
when I asked for specific characteristics in my mouthpieces.  For the 
most part, I was working with high baffle, square chamber mouthpieces 
for use in extremely loud ensembles (Wayne Cochran & the CC Riders, 
Jerry Lee Lewis, Jaco Pastorius) sometimes with no amplification of the 
sax section. I won't reveal the specific qualities I requested, lest I 
influence the replies.

Has anyone else here used the "flat tip" technique?  Why do you use 
it?  I have been encouraged by the moderator to list my question on Sax 
on the Web.  With all due respect to that forum, which I enjoy 
immensely, most contributors there have little mouthpiece refacing 
experience.  I am not a musical elitist, but in this case I am seeking 
input from experienced refacers.  Thanks.
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: "Flat spot" at the tip of a mouthpiece facing
> I have been encouraged by the moderator to list my question on Sax 
> on the Web.

A moderator of this forum?  Just Paul Coats and I have that status, and it
was not me.

I find the perfectly flat tip has very poor altissimo response in a sax
mouthpiece.  It can also sound edgy.  I have some theories why this is
true.  My chair does not have arms.

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FROM: cubismofree (planisla)
SUBJECT: Re: "Flat spot" at the tip of a mouthpiece facing

saxtek2003 <saxtek@...> wrote:     Not all of the mouthpiece manufacturers/refacers I mentioned before 
 used the "flat spot" technique in their everyday facings, yet I noticed 
 a tendency to resort to the "flat spot" from many talented craftsmen 
 when I asked for specific characteristics in my mouthpieces.  For the 
 most part, I was working with high baffle, square chamber mouthpieces 
 for use in extremely loud ensembles (Wayne Cochran & the CC Riders, 
 Jerry Lee Lewis, Jaco Pastorius) sometimes with no amplification of the 
 sax section. I won't reveal the specific qualities I requested, lest I 
 influence the replies.
 
 Has anyone else here used the "flat tip" technique?  Why do you use 
 it?  I have been encouraged by the moderator to list my question on Sax 
 on the Web.  With all due respect to that forum, which I enjoy 
 immensely, most contributors there have little mouthpiece refacing 
 experience.  I am not a musical elitist, but in this case I am seeking 
 input from experienced refacers.  Thanks.
 
 
 
 
      

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FROM: keith29236 (Edward McLean)
SUBJECT: Re: "Flat spot" at the tip of a mouthpiece facing
Surely, the missing part of the equation is the reed. 
A flat tip will match a flat cut American reed and a curved (hollow)
tip will accomodate a French cut reed with its raised heart being
pressed downwards in the centre, to match a curved tip on the mouthpiece.
Just my thoughts.
>
> 
> 
> saxtek2003 <saxtek@...> wrote:     Not all of the mouthpiece
manufacturers/refacers I mentioned before 
>  used the "flat spot" technique in their everyday facings, yet I
noticed 
>  a tendency to resort to the "flat spot" from many talented craftsmen 
>  when I asked for specific characteristics in my mouthpieces.  For the 
>  most part, I was working with high baffle, square chamber mouthpieces 
>  for use in extremely loud ensembles (Wayne Cochran & the CC Riders, 
>  Jerry Lee Lewis, Jaco Pastorius) sometimes with no amplification of
the 
>  sax section. I won't reveal the specific qualities I requested, lest I 
>  influence the replies.
>  
>  Has anyone else here used the "flat tip" technique?  Why do you use 
>  it?  I have been encouraged by the moderator to list my question on
Sax 
>  on the Web.  With all due respect to that forum, which I enjoy 
>  immensely, most contributors there have little mouthpiece refacing 
>  experience.  I am not a musical elitist, but in this case I am seeking 
>  input from experienced refacers.  Thanks.
>  
>  
>  
>  
>       
> 
>   Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>  
>  Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to
see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>  
>  To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups 
> 
>               
> 
>         SPONSORED LINKS   
>                                                     Wind instrument
                                      Saxophone                      
                Soprano saxophone                                    
                                Tenor saxophone                      
                Clarinet mouthpiece                                  
               
>       
> ---------------------------------
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>  
>     
>     Visit your group "MouthpieceWork" on the web.
>     
>     To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>     
>     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service. 
>  
>     
> ---------------------------------
>  
>  
>      
> 
> 
> Look at my webpage about saxophones:
>  
>  http://www.geocities.com/bebop_italia
>  
>  SASSOFONI PROFESSIONALI VINTAGE E RARITA' PER COLLEZIONISTI.
>  
>   Come to visit Philippines Islands 
>  http://www.geocities.com/roxy_moalboal
>  http://www.geocities.com/planet_philippines
> Send instant messages to your online friends
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: "Flat spot" at the tip of a mouthpiece facing
You need to have a flat spot at the tip if you want the reed tip to seal across the curved tip rail all at the same time. If you continue the curve to the very end the middle of the tip rail, being further out than the edges of the tip rail, will be higher, and therefore the reed tip in the center will not seal at the same time as the edges. 

Toby
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Edward McLean 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 8:16 PM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: "Flat spot" at the tip of a mouthpiece facing



  Surely, the missing part of the equation is the reed. 
  A flat tip will match a flat cut American reed and a curved (hollow)
  tip will accomodate a French cut reed with its raised heart being
  pressed downwards in the centre, to match a curved tip on the mouthpiece.
  Just my thoughts.
  >
  > 
  > 
  > saxtek2003 <saxtek@...> wrote:     Not all of the mouthpiece
  manufacturers/refacers I mentioned before 
  >  used the "flat spot" technique in their everyday facings, yet I
  noticed 
  >  a tendency to resort to the "flat spot" from many talented craftsmen 
  >  when I asked for specific characteristics in my mouthpieces.  For the 
  >  most part, I was working with high baffle, square chamber mouthpieces 
  >  for use in extremely loud ensembles (Wayne Cochran & the CC Riders, 
  >  Jerry Lee Lewis, Jaco Pastorius) sometimes with no amplification of
  the 
  >  sax section. I won't reveal the specific qualities I requested, lest I 
  >  influence the replies.
  >  
  >  Has anyone else here used the "flat tip" technique?  Why do you use 
  >  it?  I have been encouraged by the moderator to list my question on
  Sax 
  >  on the Web.  With all due respect to that forum, which I enjoy 
  >  immensely, most contributors there have little mouthpiece refacing 
  >  experience.  I am not a musical elitist, but in this case I am seeking 
  >  input from experienced refacers.  Thanks.
  >  
  >  
  >  
  >  
  >       
  > 
  >   Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to
  MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
  >  
  >  Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to
  see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
  >  
  >  To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups 
  > 
  >               
  > 
  >         SPONSORED LINKS   
  >                                                     Wind instrument
                                        Saxophone                      
                  Soprano saxophone                                    
                                  Tenor saxophone                      
                  Clarinet mouthpiece                                  
                 
  >       
  > ---------------------------------
  >    YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 
  >  
  >     
  >     Visit your group "MouthpieceWork" on the web.
  >     
  >     To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  >  MouthpieceWork-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  >     
  >     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
  Service. 
  >  
  >     
  > ---------------------------------
  >  
  >  
  >      
  > 
  > 
  > Look at my webpage about saxophones:
  >  
  >  http://www.geocities.com/bebop_italia
  >  
  >  SASSOFONI PROFESSIONALI VINTAGE E RARITA' PER COLLEZIONISTI.
  >  
  >   Come to visit Philippines Islands 
  >  http://www.geocities.com/roxy_moalboal
  >  http://www.geocities.com/planet_philippines
  > Send instant messages to your online friends
  http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
  >






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FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: "Flat spot" at the tip of a mouthpiece facing
Obviously from the tip rail edges to the center of the tip rail *has* to be flat. In my own experience this gives easier response and--especially with a high baffle just behind the tip rail or a rollover--less tendency to chirp. However I don't have all that much experience, so it would be good to hear from others who do this more regularly.

Toby
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: drhaining 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 9:37 PM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] "Flat spot" at the tip of a mouthpiece facing


  So, the $64,000 question is: what is the length, relative to facing 
  length, of the flat spot?  I suspect this is a trial and error thing.

  Doug

  --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "" <tenorman@...> wrote:
  >
  > Santy Runyon told me he did something similar to Marshall Royal's 
  mouthpiece.  Wells
  > and Tannenbaum both worked for Santy at one time, and likely 
  learned it from him. 
  > The theory on this is that it allows the tip of the reed to close 
  on the facing
  > all at once, rather than from the corners to the middle, if the 
  curve continues
  > all the way through the tip rail area.  It was felt that this gave 
  a quicker, easier
  > response.  Paul Coats
  >  
  > 
  > 
  > ----- Original Message ----- From: saxtek@... [mailto:saxtek@...] 
  Sent:
  > 3/15/2006 9:35:41 PM To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Subject: 
  [MouthpieceWork]
  > "Flat spot" at the tip of a mouthpiece facing 
  > I have been a member of this group for quite some time but I have 
  not posted until
  > I took some time to read the extensive list of previous posts. 
  > I have watched several great refacers work on my mouthpieces. 
  These people include
  > Ben Harrod (Otto Link Pompano Beach), Wolfie Tannebaum (Wolfe 
  Tayne, Guy Hawkins
  > and BARI), Bobby Dukoff, Ralph Morgan, Bennie Bonacio, and Frank 
  Wells. To a greater
  > or lesser extent, these refacers and manufacturers use a flat spot 
  near the tip
  > of their facing curves. I have not seen this tendency discussed to 
  any great extent
  > here. 
  > The Erick Brand refacing manual mentions that many good mouthpiece 
  facings are nearly
  > flat from the tip back to the first or even second feeler gauge. 
  Frank Wells, famous
  > for his work for John Coltrane, Eric Dolphy, Bobby Mintzer Mike 
  Smith and too many
  > others to mention here, was a serious exponent of this technique. 
  Frank would finish
  > his facing curve with a SIDEWAYS sweep of the tip across his 
  sandpaper. The angle
  > of the mouthpiece, of course, would determine the length of 
  this "flat spot." 
  > From the experienced refacers here, what is your experience with 
  this technique?
  > What results does it yield for you? What part of the range of the 
  instrument is
  > most affected? How do you go about producing your tip curve. 
  Please - I'm looking
  > for empirical results, not armchair theory. 
  > 
  > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to 
  MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
  > 
  > 
  > Visit the site at  [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork]
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork
  > to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
  > 
  > 
  > To see and modify your groups, go to  
  [http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups]http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
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  SPONSORED LINKS Wind instrument  Saxophone  Soprano saxophone  
        Tenor saxophone  Clarinet mouthpiece  


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    a..  Visit your group "MouthpieceWork" on the web.
      
    b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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