I just traded for some older tenor MPs.  One is Berg HR Tenor 95-0-M.
There are two unusual things about it. 

1) although it's marked .095 it measures .105 (in my experience, 
Bergs are usually .005 smaller than marked)

2) the table and side rails have horizontal (actually the lines are 
slightly radiused)"grooves" from the bottom of the table to just 
short of the tip rail.  When you run your finger nail to tip, you can 
feel the corrugated surface.  The piece seems to lose air all along 
the facing when played.

My questions are:  is the corrugated surface an alternate techinque 
that I'm not familiar with?  Or could this be a piece that was taken 
off the assembly line before final finishing?  In other words, is it 
some type of blank?  That would help account for why the tip opening 
marking is undersized for a Berg.

Many thanks in advance.

Dan Marsteller
Memphis TN

I recall Doc Tenney once commenting on a dreadfull period (more dreadfull
than normal) where Berg tables were faced this way.  

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--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "danielmarsteller"
<dandjmars@...> wrote:
>
> I just traded for some older tenor MPs.  One is Berg HR Tenor 95-0-M.
> There are two unusual things about it. 
> 
> 1) although it's marked .095 it measures .105 (in my experience, 
> Bergs are usually .005 smaller than marked)
> 
> 2) the table and side rails have horizontal (actually the lines are 
> slightly radiused)"grooves" from the bottom of the table to just 
> short of the tip rail.  When you run your finger nail to tip, you can 
> feel the corrugated surface.  The piece seems to lose air all along 
> the facing when played.
> 
> My questions are:  is the corrugated surface an alternate techinque 
> that I'm not familiar with?  Or could this be a piece that was taken 
> off the assembly line before final finishing?  In other words, is it 
> some type of blank?  That would help account for why the tip opening 
> marking is undersized for a Berg.
> 
> Many thanks in advance.
> 
> Dan Marsteller
> Memphis TN
>


The ridges are the result of the facing machine.  My ss Bergs had
these on the table but not the rails.  If they are deep on the rails
then they could well cause air too leak out.  Its probably a good
thing that the tip opening is 105 instead of 95 since that is a better
tip for high high baffle piece anyway.

Those are just the cutting marks from the facing machine.  Sort of like a milling
machine.  Runyon has two facing machines.  One leaves marks like you describe. 
The cutting head goes along a track, cutting the table, then the mechansim hits
a stop, and the cutter rotates, creating the facing curve.  By adjusting exactly
where the pivot point occurs, and the radius, an infinite number of facings may
be created... in both length and tip opening.  This machine is very accurate and
is used for all of the professional models.  I do note that they smooth the side
and tip rails by hand, though the machine marks are left on the table.  This machine
is slow, takes about 30 seconds to cut a facing.  They can only face mouthpieces
at a rate of 1 in a little less than a minute on a continuous basis.  They also
use the same machine to create templates.  These templates are place in a machine
that works very much like a key copying machine.  Only with this machine, the cutter
is a cylindrical mill whose axis runs perpendicular to the mouthpiece, across the
mouthpiece.  It travels along touching the template and creates fine lines running
lengthwise, from shank to tip.  This machine is used for fast production on student
mouthpieces and other high volume mouthpieces.  It takes less than a second to cut
the facing.  ZZZAPPP!!  Done.  It takes more time to take out the faced mouthpiece
and replace it with a blank than to cut the facing.  That is what limits production.
 With both machines, the facing is cut under a stream of water for cooling.  Both
machines were designed by Mr. Runyon.  You cannot go to any machine supplier and
tell them, I need to buy three mouthpiece facing machines.   They don't exist. 
The various manufacturers have had to create their own, or modify other existing
machines for this purpose.  Paul Coats
 


----- Original Message ----- From: danielmarsteller [mailto:dandjmars@...] Sent:
2/15/2006 3:15:07 PM To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Subject: [MouthpieceWork]
Berg HR Tenor 
I just traded for some older tenor MPs. One is Berg HR Tenor 95-0-M.

There are two unusual things about it. 

1) although it's marked .095 it measures .105 (in my experience, 
Bergs are usually .005 smaller than marked)


2) the table and side rails have horizontal (actually the lines are 
slightly radiused)"grooves" from the bottom of the table to just 
short of the tip rail. When you run your finger nail to tip, you can 
feel the corrugated surface. The piece seems to lose air all along 
the facing when played.


My questions are: is the corrugated surface an alternate techinque 
that I'm not familiar with? Or could this be a piece that was taken 
off the assembly line before final finishing? In other words, is it 
some type of blank? That would help account for why the tip opening 
marking is undersized for a Berg.


Many thanks in advance.


Dan Marsteller

Memphis TN






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I really appreciate the thoroughness of your explanation, Paul.  When I look 
at the marks on the mouthpiece and follow your information, I can see how they 
got there.

Thanks also to Keith and Andrew and the others who offered input.  This site 
is a terrific resource.

Now I've got to decide what to do.  I think I'll have to treat this piece as 
a blank because the grooves prevent getting a good seal (won't Pop--barely 
playable) and because the table is convex.

As is, the piece measures as follows:
.0015      56
.006        46
.010        42
.016        36
.024        32
.034        26
.050        19
.063        14
.078        8
.093        4
Tip         .106

Anyone have a facing schedule they'd recommend?  What about shortening the 
facing length?

Thanks again,
Dan M.

This html message parsed with html2text ---------------------------Read up (in the archived posts) on radial facing curves and how to use the
spreadsheet. This will enable you to generate target measurments once you
choose a facing length and tip opening combination. I think something in the
.105-.110 range with a length of 48-50 (24-25 mm.) would be a good ballpark
range.  
  
Flattening the table will shorten the facing, perhaps substantially, so you
should be OK there.  
  
Hope this helps.  
  
Dan T  
  
[dandjmars@...](mailto:dandjmars@...) wrote:  

> I really appreciate the thoroughness of your explanation, Paul. When I look
> at the marks on the mouthpiece and follow your information, I can see how
> they got there.
>
> Thanks also to Keith and Andrew and the others who offered input. This site
> is a terrific resource.
>
> Now I've got to decide what to do. I think I'll have to treat this piece as
> a blank because the grooves prevent getting a good seal (won't Pop--barely
> playable) and because the table is convex.
>
> As is, the piece measures as follows:
>
> .0015 56
>
> .006 46
>
> .010 42
>
> .016 36
>
> .024 32
>
> .034 26
>
> .050 19
>
> .063 14
>
> .078 8
>
> .093 4
>
> Tip .106
>
> Anyone have a facing schedule they'd recommend? What about shortening the
> facing length?
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Dan M.
>  
>  
>  
>  
>     * * *
>  
>      No virus found in
>     this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 /
> Virus
>     Database: 268.0.0/266 - Release Date: 2/21/2006

Yup, flatten the table first, since you can't really get an accurate
tip opening measurement until you do.

The Berg 0 chamber needs a medium long or long facing to work well,
due the the fairly high baffle shape.  I found that 23.75mm at the
0.0015 feeler (or a total facing length of 27mm) worked for me with a
tip opening of 105.

Good Luck!


--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, dandjmars@... wrote:
>
> I really appreciate the thoroughness of your explanation, Paul. 
When I look 
> at the marks on the mouthpiece and follow your information, I can
see how they 
> got there.
> 
> Thanks also to Keith and Andrew and the others who offered input. 
This site 
> is a terrific resource.
> 
> Now I've got to decide what to do.  I think I'll have to treat this
piece as 
> a blank because the grooves prevent getting a good seal (won't
Pop--barely 
> playable) and because the table is convex.
> 
> As is, the piece measures as follows:
> .0015      56
> .006        46
> .010        42
> .016        36
> .024        32
> .034        26
> .050        19
> .063        14
> .078        8
> .093        4
> Tip         .106
> 
> Anyone have a facing schedule they'd recommend?  What about
shortening the 
> facing length?
> 
> Thanks again,
> Dan M.
>