Bradford Behn is probably a new name to most of us.  He launched a site 
a few months ago packed with information on his clarinet mouthpieces 
and mouthpieces in general.  He makes his own hard rubber in the US and 
shows a few photos of the process.  You could spend a couple of hours 
reading and absorbing the info on his sites:

www.clarinetmouthpiece.com

www.behnmouthpieces.com

I was just looking at this info...there has been much rhetoric at SOTW
about how the mouthpiece material is insignificant to the sound, as it
is just a hard vessel setting the boundaries on the air column. The
information posted at Behn (below) certainly contradicts that...any
thoughts?

Material:

Mouthpieces have been made from many materials. Material affects
everything from tone to response and is responsible for the "playing
experience". Over the years makers have experimented with a variety of
materials to find the perfect mouthpiece.

    Wood was used before the advent of hard rubber and was plagued
with problems. As a wood mouthpiece warms up, the dimensions would
change causing intonation problems. The mouthpiece can "warp" causing
an ineffective relationship between the reed and facing. Wood can
create a variety of tone shapes and colors (depending on the density)
but is usually responsible for a colorful warm sound, easy response
and good blow-through. A good wood mouthpiece can sound very
pleasing…when it works properly.

    Ivory was used in the "old days" in an attempt to find a material
that sounds good but is more stable than wood. Ivory is more dense
than wood and has a more resistant feel. The sound has depth and
point, but the response is not as quick.

    Hard rubber, also known as Ebonite, Vulcanite, and sometimes known
as India rubber, Steel Ebonite, and Caoutchouc, replaced wood and
ivory as the new wonder material. Hard rubber is stable and has a
wonderful acoustic range. Depending on its density, the sound,
response, and resistance can be modified to suit most tonal concepts.
Since its inception, rubber has remained the chosen material for
mouthpieces.

    Glass creates a very different playing experience. It is very
resistant to the blow-through and it can create a dark but colorful
flute like sound. Usually, when playing on glass mouthpieces it is
necessary to play on much softer and vibrant reeds.

    Metal in the form of brass, bronze or aluminum is usually plated
gold or silver and is used much more in saxophone mouthpieces for its
quick to resonate sound. It is often paired with a higher baffle for
added brightness and volume.

    Plastic is commonly used in student mouthpieces for its ease of
manufacturing and therefore low cost. As there are many types of
plastics, there are many ranges of sounds, but generally it is
understood that plastic is not capable of producing the depth and
range of sounds that rubber can produce.

Sorry, I'm not a diligent reader of SOTW, so don't know what was 
discussed. Intuitively, I think I would sorta disagree that  
mouthpiece material is insignificant to the sound. I think it 
interacts with the sound that the reed makes. The other thing that I 
think is key in the article is the use of the term "playing 
experience." As a young player, I liked a harsh, loud sound and metal 
was great. As I matured, I have found great pleasure playing hard 
rubber mouthpieces and old hard rubber especially. They are softer 
than modern plastic mouthpieces, so refacing or working on them are 
quite easy. They have that distinctive odor when dragging them across 
the sandpaper.

When I won a vintage sax through an ebay auction once, unknown to me 
or the seller, a vintage A. Lelandais Streamline mouthpiece was 
included with the horn. This was a wonderful find! -- vintage, 
French, hard rubber... It had some abnormalities so I cleaned it up 
and refaced it. This is such a great playing mouthpiece; the "playing 
experience." It looks great too with a sculpted silver ring at the 
shank.

For a while, I was scouring ebay for old, no-name hardrubber 
mouthpieces to "fix." You can tell the old hard rubber, because they 
kind of looked gross and had the distinctive brown sun fade. Those 
were the ones no one wanted. I just wanted the hardrubber "blank." I 
would get these "blanks" for $10-20. I picked up two Buescher Bb 
tenor mouthpieces from a guy for $20. Refaced, raised the baffle 
slightly and they play wonderfully.

I don't play metal anymore. I play plastic quite a bit, but my 
favorite "playing experience" is hard rubber, old hard rubber...

My thoughts--

Willis Dair

OK, I'll wade in here.

There are very few mouthpieces that are available in identical chambers, 
identical shapes, except for material.

One cannot compare a Meyer hard rubber to a Meyer metal, nor Brilhart 
Ebolin/Tonalin to a Levelaire.

One CAN NOT make generalities about material.  For example, any high 
school kid walking into the band room with his Selmer Metal mouthpiece 
will be chastised by the band director... even though these are the same 
models played by Marcel Mule, Fred Hemke, and other such players. 

I often do clinics where I hold up a Selmer metal, and a Runyon Bionix 
(in black plastic), and ask, "Which is for playing rock and roll and 
which would be better for concert band?"  They always get it wrong.  The 
Selmer metal, with its round, smooth chamber gives a dark, smooth tone.  
The Bionix, with its radical chamber, very high baffle, gives an edgy, 
loud tone ideal for R&B horn section work, or Rockin' & Rollin', out 
blowing Marshall stacks.

The only mouthpieces I know that are identical in shape, but not 
material are a few models by Runyon Products.

The Runyon Metal Smoothbore (brass with chrome plating) is made on the 
same machines to exactly the same specs as the Runyon XL, made of 
Delrin.  Delrin vibrates very much like hard rubber.  However they both 
sound the same.

On the other hand, the Runyon Metal Quantum (brass with chrome plating) 
and Custom Quantum (Delrin) are identical in shape, yet the Metal gives 
a smoother tone suitable for jazz combo ballads, big band, etc.  The 
Custom Quantum is pure Rock & Roll, R&B.  This Delrin version is 
noticably brighter, edgier.

Why the difference in results?

The Smoothbore/XL has thicker side walls.  The Quantum is very thin, 
particularly the beak.

Ralph Morgan, in his column in Saxophone Journal, described an 
experiment where he filed off material on the outside of a hard rubber 
mouthpiece.  As he removed material the tone became richer, more 
lively.  As it became thinner, the material vibrated more.  But suddenly 
as the approached very thin, the tone became too extreme, edgy.

So, how the material affects the tone depends, it seems, on how easily 
it vibrates, and the amplitude of the vibration.  It must vibrate enough 
to affect the air column.

In the case of the delrin Quantum, players say they can feel the beak 
vibrating.

There are few pure hard rubber mouthpieces these days.  Some mold their 
mouthpieces from plastics and add finely ground hard rubber, and claim 
these are "hard rubber" mouthpieces.

Plastics... Several different plastics are used for making mouthpieces.  
Some manufacturers use ABS, which cracks easily, especially the shank, 
or the tip if bumped.

Some manufacturers use polycarbonates of various types. 

Runyon uses a "plastic alloy", a mix of plastics and synthetic rubber 
that was engineered to have the same "flex modulus" (which means it 
vibrates the same) as premium hard rubber.  This is used for their 
injection molded models (22, 88, Custom, others).   Drop one of these on 
a concrete floor, and you will see why it is an excellent material.  
Plus it takes a good facing, and will not warp with time, nor will the 
side and tip rails round off, wearing with age.

The plastic alloy was thought to be so good that one instrument 
manufacturer wanted to use it to make plastic student clarinets... for 
its durability AND its tonal characteristics.  But agreement could not 
be reached on how to keep this proprietary blend proprietary.

Glass, or "crystal"... let's say, as a young clarinet player, after 
breaking three of these in four months, I quickly gave up on them.  Just 
the lightest bump will shatter the delicate tip.

Why do so many tenor players like metal???

Easy, and none of you mentioned it... they like the slim design.  I, for 
one, and not the only one, cannot stand to play on the huge hard rubber 
tenor and bari mouthpieces.  At one time only metal mouthpieces were 
slim.  Now there are some good plastic pieces that have the same 
slimline shape as metal.

Paul





sjrosner wrote:

> I was just looking at this info...there has been much rhetoric at SOTW
> about how the mouthpiece material is insignificant to the sound, as it
> is just a hard vessel setting the boundaries on the air column. The
> information posted at Behn (below) certainly contradicts that...any
> thoughts?
>
> Material:
>
> Mouthpieces have been made from many materials. Material affects
> everything from tone to response and is responsible for the "playing
> experience". Over the years makers have experimented with a variety of
> materials to find the perfect mouthpiece.
>
>     Wood was used before the advent of hard rubber and was plagued
> with problems. As a wood mouthpiece warms up, the dimensions would
> change causing intonation problems. The mouthpiece can "warp" causing
> an ineffective relationship between the reed and facing. Wood can
> create a variety of tone shapes and colors (depending on the density)
> but is usually responsible for a colorful warm sound, easy response
> and good blow-through. A good wood mouthpiece can sound very
> pleasing...when it works properly.
>
>     Ivory was used in the "old days" in an attempt to find a material
> that sounds good but is more stable than wood. Ivory is more dense
> than wood and has a more resistant feel. The sound has depth and
> point, but the response is not as quick.
>
>     Hard rubber, also known as Ebonite, Vulcanite, and sometimes known
> as India rubber, Steel Ebonite, and Caoutchouc, replaced wood and
> ivory as the new wonder material. Hard rubber is stable and has a
> wonderful acoustic range. Depending on its density, the sound,
> response, and resistance can be modified to suit most tonal concepts.
> Since its inception, rubber has remained the chosen material for
> mouthpieces.
>
>     Glass creates a very different playing experience. It is very
> resistant to the blow-through and it can create a dark but colorful
> flute like sound. Usually, when playing on glass mouthpieces it is
> necessary to play on much softer and vibrant reeds.
>
>     Metal in the form of brass, bronze or aluminum is usually plated
> gold or silver and is used much more in saxophone mouthpieces for its
> quick to resonate sound. It is often paired with a higher baffle for
> added brightness and volume.
>
>     Plastic is commonly used in student mouthpieces for its ease of
> manufacturing and therefore low cost. As there are many types of
> plastics, there are many ranges of sounds, but generally it is
> understood that plastic is not capable of producing the depth and
> range of sounds that rubber can produce.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see 
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Saxophone 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Saxophone&w1=Saxophone&w2=Wind+instrument&w3=Clarinet+mouthpiece&w4=Saxophone+mouthpieces&c=4&s=88&.sig=Rqo_0BecW-5kMOT5YSn4rg> 
> 	Wind instrument 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Wind+instrument&w1=Saxophone&w2=Wind+instrument&w3=Clarinet+mouthpiece&w4=Saxophone+mouthpieces&c=4&s=88&.sig=iqaQBru1mR9DFwkLdjSFhA> 
> 	Clarinet mouthpiece 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Clarinet+mouthpiece&w1=Saxophone&w2=Wind+instrument&w3=Clarinet+mouthpiece&w4=Saxophone+mouthpieces&c=4&s=88&.sig=9TxHuC2xefbCe1DmkTjx4g> 
>
> Saxophone mouthpieces 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Saxophone+mouthpieces&w1=Saxophone&w2=Wind+instrument&w3=Clarinet+mouthpiece&w4=Saxophone+mouthpieces&c=4&s=88&.sig=fEzGO0FHjxTUjcvR0In3FQ> 
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>     *  Visit your group "MouthpieceWork
>       <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork>" on the web.
>        
>     *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>        MouthpieceWork-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>       <mailto:MouthpieceWork-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>        
>     *  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Very interesting comment regarding the width of the metal being more 
comfortable to tenor and bari players.  

I have figured that myself and added that the width, the angle of 
the beak, etc...  all had an effect on opening my jaw, placement of 
tongue and so on, thereby effecting the overall sound produced. 

Fritz
Kent, WA









--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Paul Coats <tenorman@t...> 
wrote:
>
> OK, I'll wade in here.
> 
> There are very few mouthpieces that are available in identical 
chambers, 
> identical shapes, except for material.
> 
> One cannot compare a Meyer hard rubber to a Meyer metal, nor 
Brilhart 
> Ebolin/Tonalin to a Levelaire.
> 
> One CAN NOT make generalities about material.  For example, any 
high 
> school kid walking into the band room with his Selmer Metal 
mouthpiece 
> will be chastised by the band director... even though these are 
the same 
> models played by Marcel Mule, Fred Hemke, and other such players. 
> 
> I often do clinics where I hold up a Selmer metal, and a Runyon 
Bionix 
> (in black plastic), and ask, "Which is for playing rock and roll 
and 
> which would be better for concert band?"  They always get it 
wrong.  The 
> Selmer metal, with its round, smooth chamber gives a dark, smooth 
tone.  
> The Bionix, with its radical chamber, very high baffle, gives an 
edgy, 
> loud tone ideal for R&B horn section work, or Rockin' & Rollin', 
out 
> blowing Marshall stacks.
> 
> The only mouthpieces I know that are identical in shape, but not 
> material are a few models by Runyon Products.
> 
> The Runyon Metal Smoothbore (brass with chrome plating) is made on 
the 
> same machines to exactly the same specs as the Runyon XL, made of 
> Delrin.  Delrin vibrates very much like hard rubber.  However they 
both 
> sound the same.
> 
> On the other hand, the Runyon Metal Quantum (brass with chrome 
plating) 
> and Custom Quantum (Delrin) are identical in shape, yet the Metal 
gives 
> a smoother tone suitable for jazz combo ballads, big band, etc.  
The 
> Custom Quantum is pure Rock & Roll, R&B.  This Delrin version is 
> noticably brighter, edgier.
> 
> Why the difference in results?
> 
> The Smoothbore/XL has thicker side walls.  The Quantum is very 
thin, 
> particularly the beak.
> 
> Ralph Morgan, in his column in Saxophone Journal, described an 
> experiment where he filed off material on the outside of a hard 
rubber 
> mouthpiece.  As he removed material the tone became richer, more 
> lively.  As it became thinner, the material vibrated more.  But 
suddenly 
> as the approached very thin, the tone became too extreme, edgy.
> 
> So, how the material affects the tone depends, it seems, on how 
easily 
> it vibrates, and the amplitude of the vibration.  It must vibrate 
enough 
> to affect the air column.
> 
> In the case of the delrin Quantum, players say they can feel the 
beak 
> vibrating.
> 
> There are few pure hard rubber mouthpieces these days.  Some mold 
their 
> mouthpieces from plastics and add finely ground hard rubber, and 
claim 
> these are "hard rubber" mouthpieces.
> 
> Plastics... Several different plastics are used for making 
mouthpieces.  
> Some manufacturers use ABS, which cracks easily, especially the 
shank, 
> or the tip if bumped.
> 
> Some manufacturers use polycarbonates of various types. 
> 
> Runyon uses a "plastic alloy", a mix of plastics and synthetic 
rubber 
> that was engineered to have the same "flex modulus" (which means 
it 
> vibrates the same) as premium hard rubber.  This is used for their 
> injection molded models (22, 88, Custom, others).   Drop one of 
these on 
> a concrete floor, and you will see why it is an excellent 
material.  
> Plus it takes a good facing, and will not warp with time, nor will 
the 
> side and tip rails round off, wearing with age.
> 
> The plastic alloy was thought to be so good that one instrument 
> manufacturer wanted to use it to make plastic student clarinets... 
for 
> its durability AND its tonal characteristics.  But agreement could 
not 
> be reached on how to keep this proprietary blend proprietary.
> 
> Glass, or "crystal"... let's say, as a young clarinet player, 
after 
> breaking three of these in four months, I quickly gave up on 
them.  Just 
> the lightest bump will shatter the delicate tip.
> 
> Why do so many tenor players like metal???
> 
> Easy, and none of you mentioned it... they like the slim design.  
I, for 
> one, and not the only one, cannot stand to play on the huge hard 
rubber 
> tenor and bari mouthpieces.  At one time only metal mouthpieces 
were 
> slim.  Now there are some good plastic pieces that have the same 
> slimline shape as metal.
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sjrosner wrote:
> 
> > I was just looking at this info...there has been much rhetoric 
at SOTW
> > about how the mouthpiece material is insignificant to the sound, 
as it
> > is just a hard vessel setting the boundaries on the air column. 
The
> > information posted at Behn (below) certainly contradicts 
that...any
> > thoughts?
> >
> > Material:
> >
> > Mouthpieces have been made from many materials. Material affects
> > everything from tone to response and is responsible for 
the "playing
> > experience". Over the years makers have experimented with a 
variety of
> > materials to find the perfect mouthpiece.
> >
> >     Wood was used before the advent of hard rubber and was 
plagued
> > with problems. As a wood mouthpiece warms up, the dimensions 
would
> > change causing intonation problems. The mouthpiece can "warp" 
causing
> > an ineffective relationship between the reed and facing. Wood can
> > create a variety of tone shapes and colors (depending on the 
density)
> > but is usually responsible for a colorful warm sound, easy 
response
> > and good blow-through. A good wood mouthpiece can sound very
> > pleasing...when it works properly.
> >
> >     Ivory was used in the "old days" in an attempt to find a 
material
> > that sounds good but is more stable than wood. Ivory is more 
dense
> > than wood and has a more resistant feel. The sound has depth and
> > point, but the response is not as quick.
> >
> >     Hard rubber, also known as Ebonite, Vulcanite, and sometimes 
known
> > as India rubber, Steel Ebonite, and Caoutchouc, replaced wood and
> > ivory as the new wonder material. Hard rubber is stable and has a
> > wonderful acoustic range. Depending on its density, the sound,
> > response, and resistance can be modified to suit most tonal 
concepts.
> > Since its inception, rubber has remained the chosen material for
> > mouthpieces.
> >
> >     Glass creates a very different playing experience. It is very
> > resistant to the blow-through and it can create a dark but 
colorful
> > flute like sound. Usually, when playing on glass mouthpieces it 
is
> > necessary to play on much softer and vibrant reeds.
> >
> >     Metal in the form of brass, bronze or aluminum is usually 
plated
> > gold or silver and is used much more in saxophone mouthpieces 
for its
> > quick to resonate sound. It is often paired with a higher baffle 
for
> > added brightness and volume.
> >
> >     Plastic is commonly used in student mouthpieces for its ease 
of
> > manufacturing and therefore low cost. As there are many types of
> > plastics, there are many ranges of sounds, but generally it is
> > understood that plastic is not capable of producing the depth and
> > range of sounds that rubber can produce.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to 
MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork 
to see 
> > the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
> >
> > To see and modify your groups, go to 
http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > Saxophone 
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Saxophone&w1=Saxophone&w2=Wind+instrument&w3=Clarinet+mouthpie
ce&w4=Saxophone+mouthpieces&c=4&s=88&.sig=Rqo_0BecW-5kMOT5YSn4rg> 
> > 	Wind instrument 
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Wind+instrument&w1=Saxophone&w2=Wind+instrument&w3=Clarinet+mo
uthpiece&w4=Saxophone+mouthpieces&c=4&s=88&.sig=iqaQBru1mR9DFwkLdjSFh
A> 
> > 	Clarinet mouthpiece 
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Clarinet+mouthpiece&w1=Saxophone&w2=Wind+instrument&w3=Clarine
t+mouthpiece&w4=Saxophone+mouthpieces&c=4&s=88&.sig=9TxHuC2xefbCe1Dmk
Tjx4g> 
> >
> > Saxophone mouthpieces 
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Saxophone+mouthpieces&w1=Saxophone&w2=Wind+instrument&w3=Clari
net+mouthpiece&w4=Saxophone+mouthpieces&c=4&s=88&.sig=fEzGO0FHjxTUjcv
R0In3FQ> 
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >     *  Visit your group "MouthpieceWork
> >       <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork>" on the web.
> >        
> >     *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >        MouthpieceWork-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >       <mailto:MouthpieceWork-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
subject=Unsubscribe>
> >        
> >     *  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms 
of
> >       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> >
>