Mouthpiece Work / Chamber volume, baffles & palm keys
FROM: dantorosian (Dan Torosian)
SUBJECT: Chamber volume, baffles & palm keys
I recently refaced a Meyer 5 bari mouthpiece for someone who wanted a
very small tip opening (it's .091 with a 50 length - 25mm). Plays very
well, but palm keys are flat.
1 - I'm thinking of increasing the chamber volume, which should flatten
the mid & lower part of the horn, so it will need to be pushed further
in on the neck cork, pulling the palm keys closer to normal.
2 - With long baffles (this has a long baffle and a small rollover
behind the tip), can the back ("chamber") end of the baffle be removed
somewhat (increasing chamber volume) without affecting the tone/response
much? Or do I need to find other places to remove material (boring out
the chamber beyond the existing baffle, undercutting side rails)? Since
the back end of that baffle is 25 or 30 mm from the tip, this seems like
it might work.
Thanks.
Dan T
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Chamber volume, baffles & palm keys
Yes, lowering the baffle and/or hogging out the chamber 25-30 mm away from the tip is a good place to do it. It can take a lot to make a significant difference. ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: Chamber volume, baffles & palm keys
My understanding is that a volume mismatch (the mpc volume not equalling the truncated part of the cone) only affects wavelengths less than 1/4 the length of to the first open tonehole, which would mean that only the palms would be affected by a change in chamber volume, not the mids or lows.
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Torosian
To: Mouthpiece Work
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 11:05 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Chamber volume, baffles & palm keys
I recently refaced a Meyer 5 bari mouthpiece for someone who wanted a
very small tip opening (it's .091 with a 50 length - 25mm). Plays very
well, but palm keys are flat.
1 - I'm thinking of increasing the chamber volume, which should flatten
the mid & lower part of the horn, so it will need to be pushed further
in on the neck cork, pulling the palm keys closer to normal.
2 - With long baffles (this has a long baffle and a small rollover
behind the tip), can the back ("chamber") end of the baffle be removed
somewhat (increasing chamber volume) without affecting the tone/response
much? Or do I need to find other places to remove material (boring out
the chamber beyond the existing baffle, undercutting side rails)? Since
the back end of that baffle is 25 or 30 mm from the tip, this seems like
it might work.
Thanks.
Dan T
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FROM: dantorosian (Dan Torosian)
SUBJECT: Re: Chamber volume, baffles & palm keys
Cool. Thanks. If his palm key notes are a problem for him, I'll do that. He's an older guy (about 90, actually), and I think his ability to adjust intonation is not what it used to be, so this may help him a lot. Dan Keith Bradbury wrote: >Yes, lowering the baffle and/or hogging out the chamber 25-30 mm away from >the tip is a good place to do it. It can take a lot to make a significant >difference. > > > > >____________________________________________________ >Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page >http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > >Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > >Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > >To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > >
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Chamber volume, baffles & palm keys
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto123@y...> wrote: > My understanding is that a volume mismatch (the mpc volume not equalling the truncated part of the cone) only affects wavelengths less than 1/4 the length of to the first open tonehole, which would mean that only the palms would be affected by a change in chamber volume, not the mids or lows. > Interesting. You usually have supporting references. Care to share?
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: Chamber volume, baffles & palm keys
Hi Keith,
Sorry I seem to have remembered incorrectly.
This is from Fletcher and Rossing:
"In order that the horn modes be as nearly harmonic as possible, it is desirable that the mouthpiece mimic the acoustic behavior of the missing apex of the cone. This can be done at two frequencies, and then fits reasonably well over the whole range. At low frequencies, the matching is achieved if the internal volume of the mouthpiede is equal to that of the missing conical apex, which requires that the mouthpiece have a slightly bulbous internal shape so that it actually constitutes a sort of Helmholtz resonator. The high-frequency match can then be achieved by arranging the shape of the constriction where it joins the main part of the instrument so that the Helmholtz resonance frequency of the mouthpiece is the same as the first resonance of the missing conical apex, at which it is half a wavelength long.
This mouthpiece cavity has an important effect on the spectrum of the saxophone...The cavity acts rahter like the mouthcup of a brass instrument...and imparts an extra rise of 6 dB per octave below its resonance and a fall of -6 dB/octave above."
I don't have my copy of Nederveen right here. I'll have to check it out. I'm pretty sure that I saw it somewhere: that a mismatch only affects notes whose wavelengths are less than 1/4 the length of the truncation, OTOH that can't be right, because there are no notes that high, only partials.
I'll try to clarify. In the meantime consider my statement "inoperative" ;-)
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Bradbury
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 12:15 AM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Chamber volume, baffles & palm keys
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto123@y...> wrote:
> My understanding is that a volume mismatch (the mpc volume not
equalling the truncated part of the cone) only affects wavelengths
less than 1/4 the length of to the first open tonehole, which would
mean that only the palms would be affected by a change in chamber
volume, not the mids or lows.
>
Interesting. You usually have supporting references. Care to share?
Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
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FROM: arnoldstang3 (John Price)
SUBJECT: Re: Chamber volume, baffles & palm keys
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto123@y...> wrote: HI, Are the palm keys really flat? Is it only the one player who has this problem? I would sooner think that it's too soft a reed, too little mouthpiece in the mouth or not enough embouchure muscle. John> Hi Keith, > > Sorry I seem to have remembered incorrectly. > > This is from Fletcher and Rossing: > > "In order that the horn modes be as nearly harmonic as possible, it is desirable that the mouthpiece mimic the acoustic behavior of the missing apex of the cone. This can be done at two frequencies, and then fits reasonably well over the whole range. At low frequencies, the matching is achieved if the internal volume of the mouthpiede is equal to that of the missing conical apex, which requires that the mouthpiece have a slightly bulbous internal shape so that it actually constitutes a sort of Helmholtz resonator. The high-frequency match can then be achieved by arranging the shape of the constriction where it joins the main part of the instrument so that the Helmholtz resonance frequency of the mouthpiece is the same as the first resonance of the missing conical apex, at which it is half a wavelength long. > > This mouthpiece cavity has an important effect on the spectrum of the saxophone...The cavity acts rahter like the mouthcup of a brass instrument...and imparts an extra rise of 6 dB per octave below its resonance and a fall of -6 dB/octave above." > > I don't have my copy of Nederveen right here. I'll have to check it out. I'm pretty sure that I saw it somewhere: that a mismatch only affects notes whose wavelengths are less than 1/4 the length of the truncation, OTOH that can't be right, because there are no notes that high, only partials. > > I'll try to clarify. In the meantime consider my statement "inoperative" ;-) > > Toby > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Keith Bradbury > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 12:15 AM > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Chamber volume, baffles & palm keys > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto123@y...> wrote: > > My understanding is that a volume mismatch (the mpc volume not > equalling the truncated part of the cone) only affects wavelengths > less than 1/4 the length of to the first open tonehole, which would > mean that only the palms would be affected by a change in chamber > volume, not the mids or lows. > > > > Interesting. You usually have supporting references. Care to share? > > > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > a.. Visit your group "MouthpieceWork" on the web. > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > MouthpieceWork-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------
FROM: arnoldstang3 (John Price)
SUBJECT: Re: Chamber volume, baffles & palm keys
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "John Price" <john_w_price33@h...> wrote: > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto123@y...> > wrote: > HI, Are the palm keys really flat? Is it only the one player who > has this problem? I would sooner think that it's too soft a > reed, too little mouthpiece in the mouth or not enough embouchure > muscle. John> ps...you might add air suuport Hi Keith, > > > > Sorry I seem to have remembered incorrectly. > > > > This is from Fletcher and Rossing: > > > > "In order that the horn modes be as nearly harmonic as possible, > it is desirable that the mouthpiece mimic the acoustic behavior of > the missing apex of the cone. This can be done at two frequencies, > and then fits reasonably well over the whole range. At low > frequencies, the matching is achieved if the internal volume of the > mouthpiede is equal to that of the missing conical apex, which > requires that the mouthpiece have a slightly bulbous internal shape > so that it actually constitutes a sort of Helmholtz resonator. The > high-frequency match can then be achieved by arranging the shape of > the constriction where it joins the main part of the instrument so > that the Helmholtz resonance frequency of the mouthpiece is the same > as the first resonance of the missing conical apex, at which it is > half a wavelength long. > > > > This mouthpiece cavity has an important effect on the spectrum of > the saxophone...The cavity acts rahter like the mouthcup of a brass > instrument...and imparts an extra rise of 6 dB per octave below its > resonance and a fall of -6 dB/octave above." > > > > I don't have my copy of Nederveen right here. I'll have to check > it out. I'm pretty sure that I saw it somewhere: that a mismatch > only affects notes whose wavelengths are less than 1/4 the length of > the truncation, OTOH that can't be right, because there are no notes > that high, only partials. > > > > I'll try to clarify. In the meantime consider my > statement "inoperative" ;-) > > > > Toby > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Keith Bradbury > > To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 12:15 AM > > Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Chamber volume, baffles & palm keys > > > > > > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto123@y...> > wrote: > > > My understanding is that a volume mismatch (the mpc volume not > > equalling the truncated part of the cone) only affects > wavelengths > > less than 1/4 the length of to the first open tonehole, which > would > > mean that only the palms would be affected by a change in > chamber > > volume, not the mids or lows. > > > > > > > Interesting. You usually have supporting references. Care to > share? > > > > > > > > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to > MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork > to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > > > To see and modify your groups, go to > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ----------- > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > a.. Visit your group "MouthpieceWork" on the web. > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > MouthpieceWork-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- > -----------
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: Chamber volume, baffles & palm keys
Actually I would think this is more likely. Changing the lay is not going to make much difference at all to the mpc volume. Toby ----- Original Message ----- From: John Price To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 10:42 PM Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Chamber volume, baffles & palm keys --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto123@y...> wrote: HI, Are the palm keys really flat? Is it only the one player who has this problem? I would sooner think that it's too soft a reed, too little mouthpiece in the mouth or not enough embouchure muscle. John> Hi Keith,