I used to play a 5JB for the occasssional Dixieland tune.  Lately I prefer
a Rico Royal M9 for that.  

For more "legit" playing I used to use a B46.  But now I use an older
Selmer C85 120.  I hold onto the Vandorens for backup since they are very
good still.

I evened up the rails on the M9. Other than that, my clarinet MPs are as
from the factory.  Even my bass clarinet MPs are untouched.

I have made a few clarinet MPs with radial facings.  I observed that I
liked my players better.  I know better than to mess with them since they
work for me.

I think a clarinet facing that flattens out more near the tip is worth
persuing.  It can be parabolic curve-like a an ellipse.  But the ellipse is
90 degress from what I see used on sax MPs.

I have not tinkered with enough clarinet mouthpiece to have specific
recommendations on what should be tried.  Just enough to know that I do not
have the answers.  Just play a lot of them and duplicate the ones you like.


		
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Or check out the specs I posted last week. I've not bothered to graph 
any of them, but they do play well.


--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@y...> 
wrote:
> I have not tinkered with enough clarinet mouthpiece to have specific
> recommendations on what should be tried.  Just enough to know that I 
do not
> have the answers.  Just play a lot of them and duplicate the ones you 
like.
> 
> 
> 		
> __________________________________ 
> Do you Yahoo!? 
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/

Thanks for sharing these Merlin.  I had a go at graphing these a
couple of days ago.  None of them seemed to be radial, or even much
like each other!  Where did you measure the tip opening from?  Right
at the end, or back behind the tip rail thickness?

I've had good results with the radial technique that I learnt from
this group as appplied to sax mouthpieces (thanx Keith).  Now I'm
hoping to improve some of my not-so-great clari pieces.

Regards,
Andrew




--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "merlin_williams_toronto"
<fred_bloggs_ca@y...> wrote:
> 
> Or check out the specs I posted last week. I've not bothered to graph 
> any of them, but they do play well.
> 
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@y...> 
> wrote:
> > I have not tinkered with enough clarinet mouthpiece to have specific
> > recommendations on what should be tried.  Just enough to know that I 
> do not
> > have the answers.  Just play a lot of them and duplicate the ones you 
> like.
> > 
> > 
> > 		
> > __________________________________ 
> > Do you Yahoo!? 
> > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/

Not that it is the only way to go on clarinet facings but I think some of
the best facings out there are right out of the book.  Kaspar.  They're
right in the sweet spot for most players and they seem to play better than
anything else I have tried.


Ed Svoboda

-----Original Message-----
From: merlin_williams_toronto [mailto:fred_bloggs_ca@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 5:08 PM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: facing curves - clarinet



Or check out the specs I posted last week. I've not bothered to graph 
any of them, but they do play well.


--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@y...> 
wrote:
> I have not tinkered with enough clarinet mouthpiece to have specific
> recommendations on what should be tried.  Just enough to know that I 
do not
> have the answers.  Just play a lot of them and duplicate the ones you 
like.
> 
> 
> 		
> __________________________________ 
> Do you Yahoo!? 
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/






Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com

Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the
Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.

To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups 
Yahoo! Groups Links



 

Andrew, would you mind posting the graphs you did of Merling clarinet
facing curves?

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I like to measure the tip right at the end.

I've tried doing some radial curve clarinet pieces, but haven't liked 
any of them except for a contrabass mouthpiece I did. 


--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "andrewhdonaldson" 
<andrewhdonaldson@h...> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for sharing these Merlin.  I had a go at graphing these a
> couple of days ago.  None of them seemed to be radial, or even much
> like each other!  Where did you measure the tip opening from?  Right
> at the end, or back behind the tip rail thickness?
> 
> I've had good results with the radial technique that I learnt from
> this group as appplied to sax mouthpieces (thanx Keith).  Now I'm
> hoping to improve some of my not-so-great clari pieces.
> 
> Regards,
> Andrew
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "merlin_williams_toronto"
> <fred_bloggs_ca@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > Or check out the specs I posted last week. I've not bothered to 
graph 
> > any of them, but they do play well.
> > 
> > 
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury 
<kwbradbury@y...> 
> > wrote:
> > > I have not tinkered with enough clarinet mouthpiece to have 
specific
> > > recommendations on what should be tried.  Just enough to know 
that I 
> > do not
> > > have the answers.  Just play a lot of them and duplicate the 
ones you 
> > like.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 		
> > > __________________________________ 
> > > Do you Yahoo!? 
> > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/

Thanks for posting the graphs! I was wondering what they looked like, 
but just haven't had the time lately to do that.

Merlin


--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "andrewhdonaldson" 
<andrewhdonaldson@h...> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for sharing these Merlin.  I had a go at graphing these a
> couple of days ago.  None of them seemed to be radial, or even much
> like each other!  Where did you measure the tip opening from?  Right
> at the end, or back behind the tip rail thickness?
> 
> I've had good results with the radial technique that I learnt from
> this group as appplied to sax mouthpieces (thanx Keith).  Now I'm
> hoping to improve some of my not-so-great clari pieces.
> 
> Regards,
> Andrew
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "merlin_williams_toronto"
> <fred_bloggs_ca@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > Or check out the specs I posted last week. I've not bothered to 
graph 
> > any of them, but they do play well.
> > 
> > 
> > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury 
<kwbradbury@y...> 
> > wrote:
> > > I have not tinkered with enough clarinet mouthpiece to have 
specific
> > > recommendations on what should be tried.  Just enough to know 
that I 
> > do not
> > > have the answers.  Just play a lot of them and duplicate the 
ones you 
> > like.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 		
> > > __________________________________ 
> > > Do you Yahoo!? 
> > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/

I'm glad we are finally getting some clarinet discussion going.  

I just posted another version of the spreadsheet that compares all 10 
facing curves on a single graph.  This shows that the Zinner is quite a 
bit different than the rest of the pack.  But there is a lot a 
variation in the other 9 too.  Some of this is by design, some of it is 
manufacturing variation.

Several of the curves have low spots at the .025" feeler.  I think flat 
is OK for a short section, but low can not be good.  Just to make sure 
this is not just a measurement error, it would be good for Merlin to 
check his .025" feeler with a caliper to see if it measures small 
like .023".  Or, the neighboring feelers could measure large.  If you 
play with the feeler numbers in the plots you can see that .001" can 
change the shape significantly.  For the .0015" feeler, <.0005 is 
significant.  Mine measures .0017" so that is what I plug in my working 
spreadsheets.

Finally got a chance to check my .025" feeler today - it's accurate. 
That means those clarinet facings really do have a flat section. It's 
interesting to note it's in a similar place on all of them.

The only radial facing I've ever done on a clarinet bass was on my own 
Vito contra-alto piece. Took me a little while to get used to it, but 
it does work well. 

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Bradbury" 
<kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> Several of the curves have low spots at the .025" feeler.  I think 
flat 
> is OK for a short section, but low can not be good.  Just to make 
sure 
> this is not just a measurement error, it would be good for Merlin to 
> check his .025" feeler with a caliper to see if it measures small 
> like .023".  Or, the neighboring feelers could measure large.  If you 
> play with the feeler numbers in the plots you can see that .001" can 
> change the shape significantly.  For the .0015" feeler, <.0005 is 
> significant.  Mine measures .0017" so that is what I plug in my 
working 
> spreadsheets.

Thanks for checking Merlin.  

I've done a few fairly open bass clar MPs with radial facings.  I was
shooting for a honker for big band doubling.  I think a Vandoren I used for
years was basically radial.  My current favorite is a Charles Bay MO-M
(.080) with a Powertone baffle.  The facing curve has flat spots.  Go
figure.  It out-played a .090 radial I made.  I even tried some removable
baffles.  Bay knows something I may never figure out.

One of my distant goals is to make an open BC MP that takes Bari Sax reeds.


		
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Look at the classic clarinet facings and you will see that most of them have bumps and flatspots.  Last year I ran a series of spreadsheets to visualize this because it was easier to understand.  Most of the clarinet mouthpiece guys I have talked to seem to gravitate towards well known facings.  I have had numerous discussions with them and they have choosen these facings because they work best.  They are unaware of any scientific basis for the facings.

The work that Mojo has done on saxophone facings is very interesting and I do believe that saxophone facings work very well with radial curves.  Clarinet facings seem to work better with some resistance built into them.  The reeds should be the key but I haven't done an analysis of clarinet reeds.



Ed


> 
> 
> 
> Finally got a chance to check my .025" feeler today - it's accurate. 
> That means those clarinet facings really do have a flat section. It's 
> interesting to note it's in a similar place on all of them.
> 
> The only radial facing I've ever done on a clarinet bass was on my own 
> Vito contra-alto piece. Took me a little while to get used to it, but 
> it does work well. 
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Bradbury" 
> <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> > Several of the curves have low spots at the .025" feeler.  I think 
> flat 
> > is OK for a short section, but low can not be good.  Just to make 
> sure 
> > this is not just a measurement error, it would be good for Merlin to 
> > check his .025" feeler with a caliper to see if it measures small 
> > like .023".  Or, the neighboring feelers could measure large.  If you 
> > play with the feeler numbers in the plots you can see that .001" can 
> > change the shape significantly.  For the .0015" feeler, <.0005 is 
> > significant.  Mine measures .0017" so that is what I plug in my 
> working 
> > spreadsheets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, 
> Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
> 
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 

I'm lucky, in that I can check all of Vandoren's current production 
stuff before it hits the shelves. 

I'm hesitant to copy facings from pieces that have been played a lot, 
since the facing curve has probably lengthened over time.

I'll keep checking new stuff and adding to the database here, and I'll 
grab numbers from customer pieces whenever I can too.

Thanks everyone for all the clarinet info.  After looking thru a lot
of these facings, plus a few of my own and also the Brandt book stuff
I can see the following patterns:

1.  Most of the curves take the form of an intital radial curve
followed by a central flat section and then either continue more or
less flat to the tip or else curve up to the tip.

2.  Some of the facings seem to curve back the other way ei like an S
curve.  Possibly this is explained by Mojo's hunch, ie that some
refacers use a standard set of numbers for different tip openings. 
This would explain why some curve up, some curve back down, and some
run straight near the tip.  I would have thought the "S" curves not to
play very easily!

3.  I'm guessing that the flat bit in the middle is design to make
middle B, C and C# easier to play, since these are the most resistant
notes on the instrument.  I'm assuming that about half way along the
facing is the part that coresponds to the "break", ei overblowing at
the 12th.

Am I on the right track?

Regards,
Andrew 


--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "merlin_williams_toronto"
<fred_bloggs_ca@y...> wrote:
> 
> I'm lucky, in that I can check all of Vandoren's current production 
> stuff before it hits the shelves. 
> 
> I'm hesitant to copy facings from pieces that have been played a lot, 
> since the facing curve has probably lengthened over time.
> 
> I'll keep checking new stuff and adding to the database here, and I'll 
> grab numbers from customer pieces whenever I can too.

3.  I'm guessing that the flat bit in the middle is design to make
middle B, C and C# easier to play, since these are the most resistant
notes on the instrument.  I'm assuming that about half way along the
facing is the part that coresponds to the "break", ei overblowing at
the 12th.

Am I on the right track?


No parts of the facing curve correspond to different notes. The notes are 
created by the frequency of the reed vibration as it couples with and 
regenerates the standing wave in the instrument bore. The reed basically 
vibrates as a unit, so any change in the facing would affect the playability 
of all the notes. This is not quite true at the extremes of the instrument, 
where changes in the facing contribute to the ease of playing of the very 
lowest notes and very highest notes to some extent, but basically a flat bit 
in the middle is not going to selectively favor B2-C#2.

Toby 

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "andrewhdonaldson" 
<andrewhdonaldson@h...> wrote:

> 2.  Some of the facings seem to curve back the other way ei like an S
> curve.  Possibly this is explained by Mojo's hunch, ie that some
> refacers use a standard set of numbers for different tip openings. 
> This would explain why some curve up, some curve back down, and some
> run straight near the tip.  I would have thought the "S" curves not to
> play very easily!
> 

I would expect air to leak in/out the sides.  But the sides may be 
inside your embouchure (lips).

Also, how does one construct a concave low spot even if they want one?  
I think all refacers use a flat work surface so making a concave 
surface would be theoretically impossible without some significant 
material flex or thermal expansion/contraction.  This can occur with 
higher speed machine cutting and can be seen as concave tables.