Mouthpiece Work / Arc radius
FROM: rosss12000 (Ross)
SUBJECT: Arc radius
Well the measuring has commenced, and last years free hand effort
can easily be graded.
It is a Jumbo Java tenor 55
The .0015 point is 47.0 mm from the tip
.010 24.0
.024 13.7
.034 11.7
.050 08.4
Tip is .084
I'm a retired enthusiastic amateur, who was attempting to be better
heard in a guitar band.
The measurements that I've found in the first 450 posts, seem to
suggest that I've got the lay a little too far aft....:)
Any suggestions regarding a more playable contour, would be
appreciated.....
Ross
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Arc radius
Ouch! Just looking at it hurts. My "***" notes below are for a radial arc between the 47 facing length and the .084" tip opening. This will be a lot more responsive as you approch my suggested numbers. You will probably need a much harder reed if you have actually been playing on this piece. Or, you may need to open it up to .090"+. --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Ross" <rfsmith@a...> wrote: > > > It is a Jumbo Java tenor 55 > > The .0015 point is 47.0 mm from the tip ***OK > .010 24.0 *** 36 > .024 13.7 *** 26 > .034 11.7 *** 20.5 > .050 08.4 *** 13.5 > > Tip is .084 *** OK >
FROM: rosss12000 (Ross Smith)
SUBJECT: Re: Arc radius
Thanks for the quick response Keith...
The piece is not playable as is, and I'd like to use it in a rock setting if possible....
The lay lengths I've been seeing in the first 500 postings, seem to be in the twenty mm range.
If I'm able to lap the table down 10 thow, do you see any reason a shorter lay couldn't be used?
Assuming I can keep the table flat....
If I were to lap till 0015 was at the 24mm mark, would that be a more reasonable starting point...?
Thanks again for starting such a fabulous sight.......
I'm blown away by the level of information.
For your amusement, I've attached a picture of the home made facing device, that led to the above measurements.
Ross
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Bradbury
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 4:07 PM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Arc radius
Ouch! Just looking at it hurts. My "***" notes below are for a
radial arc between the 47 facing length and the .084" tip opening.
This will be a lot more responsive as you approch my suggested
numbers. You will probably need a much harder reed if you have
actually been playing on this piece. Or, you may need to open it up
to .090"+.
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Ross" <rfsmith@a...> wrote:
>
>
> It is a Jumbo Java tenor 55
>
> The .0015 point is 47.0 mm from the tip ***OK
> .010 24.0 *** 36
> .024 13.7 *** 26
> .034 11.7 *** 20.5
> .050 08.4 *** 13.5
>
> Tip is .084 *** OK
>
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FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Arc radius
I mis-read your facing numbers. I thought your facing length was 47 on the glass gage = 23.5 mm. So divide my numbers by 2 if you want to work in mm's. So you do have more work cut out for you. You need to cut down the table to shorten the facing length. This may be very difficult to do and keep it flat. Plus for a rock gig, you may want a larger tip opening and a more open tip than a .084". It depends on you chops. If you can handle it without getting tired during the gig, you should go larger. Is this a Jumbo Java? You facing jig is pretty clever. But the radius looks too long to me. It should be more on the order of 5"-6" or so. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
FROM: rosss12000 (Ross Smith)
SUBJECT: Re: Arc radius
You're right, I guessed the arc way too high....
It is a Jumbo Java....It was originally a 55.......I tried a 75 and it was also ok.....
If the 100 were a lot stiffer, could I not just use thinner reeds...?
I'll be guided by your wisdom......
If you would send the arc for a larger opening, I'll try that.
Thanks again.
Ross
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Bradbury
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Arc radius
I mis-read your facing numbers. I thought your facing length was 47 on the
glass gage = 23.5 mm. So divide my numbers by 2 if you want to work in
mm's.
So you do have more work cut out for you. You need to cut down the table
to shorten the facing length. This may be very difficult to do and keep it
flat. Plus for a rock gig, you may want a larger tip opening and a more
open tip than a .084". It depends on you chops. If you can handle it
without getting tired during the gig, you should go larger. Is this a
Jumbo Java?
You facing jig is pretty clever. But the radius looks too long to me. It
should be more on the order of 5"-6" or so.
__________________________________
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FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Arc radius - Jumbo Java T55
I put a new .100" tip facing curve in the Files - Tenor Sax section on the site. It is labled "message 2854". I also show a plot of the starting curve and the goal curve. I also moved around several facing curve frile from the "Methods" area to the Tenor/Bari/Sop areas. F [inch] L L [mm] 0 53.2 0.0015 47.0 23.5 0.010 37.2 18.6 0.024 28.5 14.2 0.034 23.8 11.9 0.050 17.6 8.8 0.100 3.0 1.5 <--tip rail width (1.5mm)
FROM: rosss12000 (Ross Smith)
SUBJECT: Re: Arc radius - Jumbo Java T55
Thank you so much.....
Lapping has begun, I'll let you know how it ends up...
Ross
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Bradbury
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 7:27 AM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Arc radius - Jumbo Java T55
I put a new .100" tip facing curve in the Files - Tenor Sax section
on the site. It is labled "message 2854". I also show a plot of the
starting curve and the goal curve.
I also moved around several facing curve frile from the "Methods"
area to the Tenor/Bari/Sop areas.
F [inch] L L [mm]
0 53.2
0.0015 47.0 23.5
0.010 37.2 18.6
0.024 28.5 14.2
0.034 23.8 11.9
0.050 17.6 8.8
0.100 3.0 1.5 <--tip rail width (1.5mm)
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FROM: rosss12000 (Ross)
SUBJECT: Re: Arc radius - Jumbo Java T55
Hi Keith Well the lapping was successful, and I've been slowly approaching your .084 radius numbers. After lowering the baffle inside the tip last night, it's the best it's ever played.... I've dropped it about .015...... Is there much to be gained by going deeper...? And what were the actual arc lengths, for the .084 and .100 rads. that you gave me. Thanks again. Ross --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Bradbury" <kwbradbury@y...> wrote: > > I put a new .100" tip facing curve in the Files - Tenor Sax section > on the site. It is labled "message 2854". I also show a plot of the > starting curve and the goal curve. > > I also moved around several facing curve frile from the "Methods" > area to the Tenor/Bari/Sop areas. > > F [inch] L L [mm] > 0 53.2 > 0.0015 47.0 23.5 > 0.010 37.2 18.6 > 0.024 28.5 14.2 > 0.034 23.8 11.9 > 0.050 17.6 8.8 > 0.100 3.0 1.5 <--tip rail width (1.5mm)
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Arc radius - Jumbo Java T55
The R for the .100 curve is 4.93". The R for the .084 curve is 6.00". Both have the same facing length of 47 = 23.5mm with the .0015" feeler.
FROM: rosss12000 (Ross)
SUBJECT: Dillema
Hi Keith Over the past couple of weeks,I've been sneaking up on your measurements (below), and playing between each filing session. Filing started near the tip where the largest differences were, and the first couple of trials, there were large improvements over the whole range of the horn. However I'm still short of the 10, 24, and 34 measurements, and the piece is becoming too "heavy" for me. Seeing as how removing material near the table adds weight the quickest, I wonder about starting again, and use a shorter radius..? Is that logical...? I have tried the files section to see if anything was listed around 5 inches....but for some reason this computer locks up on most of the downloads.....? (You had said that the measurements below were for a 6 inch rad.) Thanks again. Ross --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Bradbury" <kwbradbury@y...> wrote: > > Ouch! Just looking at it hurts. My "***" notes below are for a > radial arc between the 47 facing length and the .084" tip opening. > This will be a lot more responsive as you approch my suggested > numbers. You will probably need a much harder reed if you have > actually been playing on this piece. Or, you may need to open it up > to .090"+. > > --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Ross" <rfsmith@a...> wrote: > > > > > > It is a Jumbo Java tenor 55 > > > > The .0015 point is 47.0 mm from the tip ***OK > > .010 24.0 *** 36 > > .024 13.7 *** 26 > > .034 11.7 *** 20.5 > > .050 08.4 *** 13.5 > > > > Tip is .084 *** OK > >
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Dillema
Ross, Supply me your current facing measurements so I can help you better. Also, can you elaborate on what you mean by "heavy". __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
FROM: rosss12000 (Ross Smith)
SUBJECT: Re: Dillema
Hi Keith
As .024 and .010 were moved farther back from the tip, the reed (2.25 Legere) began feeling
"heavy" and muddy, requiring more bite, with no payback in tone or volume....
Making the lowest few notes much harder to control, and removing tone overall....?
( Moving .050 and .034 back, added a little more weight to the bite, but paid back with both tone and volume. )
However, my "sneaking up" was flawed.
I've just finished re measuring again, and have found that my .050 measurement of 6.5, is now reading 7.2 and is well beyond your recommended curve.
I can only imagine that I had dirt in my .050 stack of shims while filing....:(
But at any rate, it was playing better, before working further back, which makes me think that a shorter radius may be better suited than
a smaller tip opening with a long lay.....(I'm using it in a guitar band)
It would require a return to the lapping table either way, but that was fairly easy last time.....
Does a 5 inch radius, with a .086 tip sound like a reasonable choice...?
At any rate here are the numbers in mms.(Jumbo Java Tenor)
Suggested Actual
0015 23.5 23.5
010 18 17.6
024 13 12.4
034 10.25 10.0
050 7.2 6.75
Tip 086
Thanks in advance
Ross
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Bradbury
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 9:03 PM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [MouthpieceWork] Dillema
Ross,
Supply me your current facing measurements so I can help you better. Also,
can you elaborate on what you mean by "heavy".
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FROM: dantorosian (Dan Torosian)
SUBJECT: Re: Dillema
[ Attachment content not displayed ]
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Dillema
Ross, Based on where you are at now, I would go after these new targets: .0015 23.1 .010 17.7 .024 12.8 .034 10.2 .050 6.7 FYI, these are for a 6.16" radius, but I do not find conversing in terms of facing radius as useful. Its just not part of the players' language. For ref, you said you are now at: 23.5 17.6 12.4 10 6.75 So I would fix the .024 number only and try it. Perhaps lean a little towards the .034" area as you fix the .024" area. This should make the MP "lighter" and more responsive for the mid range and lower notes. As it is now, there is a hump there in the facing curve you are asking the reed to bend around. This requires more air pressure/flow to get the reed to speak. When it finally speaks, you get a note that is louder and heavier than you may want. If the table is flat, leave the .0015" reading alone. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
FROM: rosss12000 (Ross Smith)
SUBJECT: Re: Dillema
My apologies Keith, I reversed the target / actual numbers for the .050 measurement.
The actual should have read.
.0015 23.5
.010 17.6
.024 12.4
.034 10.0
.050 7.2
Tip 86
R. Klutz
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Bradbury
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Dillema
Ross,
Based on where you are at now, I would go after these new targets:
.0015 23.1
.010 17.7
.024 12.8
.034 10.2
.050 6.7
FYI, these are for a 6.16" radius, but I do not find conversing in terms of
facing radius as useful. Its just not part of the players' language.
For ref, you said you are now at:
23.5
17.6
12.4
10
6.75
So I would fix the .024 number only and try it. Perhaps lean a little
towards the .034" area as you fix the .024" area. This should make the MP
"lighter" and more responsive for the mid range and lower notes. As it is
now, there is a hump there in the facing curve you are asking the reed to
bend around. This requires more air pressure/flow to get the reed to
speak. When it finally speaks, you get a note that is louder and heavier
than you may want.
If the table is flat, leave the .0015" reading alone.
__________________________________
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FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Dillema
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Ross Smith" <rfsmith@a...> wrote: > My apologies Keith, I reversed the target / actual numbers for the .050 measurement. > The actual should have read. > .0015 23.5 > .010 17.6 > .024 12.4 > .034 10.0 > .050 7.2 > > Tip 86 > I would lap the table some and shoot for: 23.0 17.7 12.9 10.4 7.0 tip .090 Avoid cutting the .0015" and .050" feeler areas any more. Open the tip only and bring down the hump in the facing curve at the .024- .034" range.