Mouthpiece Work / Re: Large chambers
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: Large chambers
And I have to disagree with you: you are conceiving the air movement as a laminar flow, which it isn't at all. The standing waves that develop within the mpc and the tube create pressure pulses that push equally in all directions against the tube. The air going into the horn doesn't flow smoothly along the tube, it gets used to re-energize the propagation of the waves as they lose power to friction at the walls. 

Just as an experiment take a mpc alone and blow without letting the reed engage. Place your other hand near the end of the shank. You will feel a steady and strong flow of air. Now bite down a bit without changing your blowing pressure and make the reed sound. You will notice an immediate drop in air "flow", because now instead of flowing smoothly through the chamber and out the throat the air is propagating standing waves in there. There is a displacement node at the end of the mpc which moves air molecules at every reed pulse, but you no longer have any kind of laminar flow, so the air can't take a "detour" as you call it.

Sharp edges can cause reflections, such as where the mpc meets the neck, and places like this can cause some turbulence, but generally you won't find that in smooth chambers--what you are doing with a large chamber is increasing the vibrating air mass, which changes somewhat the way the standing wave propagates and thus how it couples with the rest of the air column. At least that's how I understand the dynamics.

If you have any references which support your view I'd be happy to know about them.

Toby
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: aniewood 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 7:01 AM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Large chambers



  "A large chamber doesn't really add a "detour" for the air stream, as 
  you have standing waves in there instead of a linear airflow, but it 
  certainly is an important determinant of the overall sound and how 
  the reed vibrations couple with the air column."

  Sorry Toby, but I disagree with you.  The beauty of our free society.

  If the chamber size is larger than the circular opening of the neck, 
  the air is not being channeled directly in the horn.  It is going out 
  and then in again. If you don't like the adjective I used to describe 
  what I'm talking about... Well... What can I say. Call it what
  you 
  will.

  With a small chamber design, like a small round Selmer soloist - the 
  size of the chamber is virtually the same size as the opening in the 
  neck; thus the airstream is channeled directly into the horn. Yet 
  large chambers like a Woodwind & co., Master Link, Slantline, Older 
  Selmer pre-Soloist Table A/B/C/D etc - are considerably larger than 
  the neck opening; in some instances double the size. You don't want 
  to call it a detour? But can you honestly deny that the airstream is 
  not in some way taking a small journey out then in, or being 
  redirected before it enters the horn?






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FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Large chambers
Guys, you are both fairly set in your ways and any further debate will
probably not sway either of you.  Just state your positions and let it
rest.  I wont let a war escalate here.

I think there is enough room in this world for refacing "techs" that do
work guided by their own theories and others who can quote published works.
 

I often disagree with the theory that was used to inspire some really great
innovation.  I'm glad I wasn't around to stop the invention!

I wish the science was developed enough to really assist in Mouthpiece
Work.  But I have not found much that can be applied to give better results
than some of the off-the-wall theories.

Peace.



		
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FROM: zed_saxmaniax (zed_saxmaniax)
SUBJECT: Re: Large chambers
To add my two cents in regards to the chamber size art/science 
discussion... Changes in the geometry of the cross sectional profile 
of the airstream create a pressure differential which has two 
effects.  First, it creates a "node" of sorts if that change is 
abrupt/significant enough - adding harmonic variants to the tone, and 
(second) it decreases the efficiency of the airflow.

This is precisely why brass instrument bells are flared - a more 
gradual pressure differential between the instrument and the 
surrounding environment which results in more omni-directional sound 
projection and less backpressure.

So if the mouthpiece chamber/throat lines up nicely with the inside 
diameter of the neck, then the airflow is perhaps more efficient 
(felt as more "free blowing", for example).  But there may be tonal 
characteristics (harmonics) created by less free-blowing setups that 
are more desirable to some.
FROM: saxgourmet (STEVE GOODSON)
SUBJECT: Re: Large chambers
So if the mouthpiece chamber/throat lines up nicely with the inside 
diameter of the neck, then the airflow is perhaps more efficient 
(felt as more "free blowing", for example). 

THIS IS THE KEY CONCEPT IN MY NECK ENHANCER




"There's only 12 notes. It's all in how you use them!" Tim Price

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Visit my Saxophone Discussion Forum  http://saxgourmet.myforums.net/
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FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: Large chambers
RE: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Large chambersAha! 

Now I get it...

Toby
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: STEVE GOODSON 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 11:12 PM
  Subject: RE: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Large chambers




  So if the mouthpiece chamber/throat lines up nicely with the inside 
  diameter of the neck, then the airflow is perhaps more efficient 
  (felt as more "free blowing", for example). 

  THIS IS THE KEY CONCEPT IN MY NECK ENHANCER 





  "There's only 12 notes. It's all in how you use them!" Tim Price 

  Visit my website and online store  www.saxgourmet.com 
  Visit my Saxophone Discussion Forum  http://saxgourmet.myforums.net/ 
  Visit the Sax Repair Discussion Group 
  http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/SaxophoneRepair/ 
  Steve  Goodson 
  see our TERMS OF SERVICE  at: 
  http://saxgourmet.com/business.html 



   




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