Mouthpiece Work / Acrylic biteplate
FROM: dantorosian (Dan Torosian)
SUBJECT: Acrylic biteplate
I just managed to activate my little webspace with my ISP and post pictures of last week's mouthpiece project. I made a new bite plate for a stainless steel Berg Larsen tenor mouthpiece using 2-part quick-setting dental acrylic. It came out quite well. I think the translucent pink looks great, but there are other colors of acrylic available. Dan http://users4.ev1.net/~dtorosian/ <http://users4.ev1.net/%7Edtorosian/>
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Acrylic biteplate
Thanks for the pics! It looks like it is basically transparent with a pink tint to it. Have you tried mixing the powder with the liquid to make a paste/putty out of it? If it has a 10 min working time, this might be possible. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com
FROM: dantorosian (Dan Torosian)
SUBJECT: Re: Acrylic biteplate
It might be workable that way, but it starts out pretty thin and watery. Also, it might not be something you want to get on your skin before it's cured - it seems pretty nasty. The customer service folks at Schein dental were extremely helpful; they might know about the workability and different properties of the different acrylics, etc. Maybe there's a different one that works more like epoxy (mix to a putty, etc.). I picked this stuff (Ortho-Jet) after explaining what I wanted to my dentist, who does reconstructive and cosmetic work. Yes, it is nearly transparent, and is pretty much invisible on a black bite plate or mouthpiece surface. It shows up pink on the white Brilhart bite plate, though, and on bare metal like this Berg. Dan Keith Bradbury wrote: >Thanks for the pics! It looks like it is basically transparent with a pink >tint to it. > >Have you tried mixing the powder with the liquid to make a paste/putty out >of it? If it has a 10 min working time, this might be possible. > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! >http://my.yahoo.com > > > > > >Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > >Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > >To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >. > > >
FROM: capnjeffus (Jeff & Joan Turner)
SUBJECT: Re: Acrylic biteplate
I've been following this discussion in regards to using dental acrylic for repairs and reconstruction of mouthpieces since it started. As a dentist who has used the stuff for this purpose for over 20 years, I could have jumped in but you guys were carrying the load pretty well. I have found the material is easy to work with, works well and lasts. I repaired big chip in a Brilhart Tonalin mouthpiece that came with a Boosey and Hawks "Fogware" alto sax that I purchased used -- the first reed instrument I had (I've been a string player, primarily bass, for over 40 years). The music shop guy said it was a good mouthpiece and worth the trouble. I still have it and the original repair has hung in there. I've used it with a number of other materials and found that, of course, it works best with acrylic plastics but can be used with hard rubber as well. Using acrylic with non acrylic materials requires mechanical retention because there is no true "bond" between the materials. In regards to mixing up to a paste or putty-like consistency, dental lab technicians, when repairing acrylic appliances, often "freehand" a batch (that is, mix to a desired consistency rather than following the suggested monomer/powder ratio) in a baggie, cut a corner off the bag and squeeze the dough like paste out onto their work -- kind of like a chef filling cream pastries. The primary problem you run into when improvising with the powder/liquid ratio is getting too much monomer (make the mixture really runny). It may cure with voids as the unreacted monomer vaporizes within the curing acrylic. These can be filled, but that adds another step to the process. Voids are usually only a problem when your are heat curing the acrylic, which is the standard technique in dental labs. The setting material is placed in a water bath at 120 degrees under 20psi (can be done at home using a pressure cooker) for 10 to 12 minutes. As far as being tough on the skin, well, as with any solvent it would be prudent to minimize contact of methyl methacrylate monomer with the skin. However, dental laboratory technicians and dentists have been using it on a daily basis with little or no problems -- at least that I know of. OSHA is more concerned with inhalation of the vapor that skin contact. Now, if you REALLY want to try a nice material, try some of the light cured composite resin (resin filled with microscopic quartz particles). It has great handling properties, indefinite working time and is terrifically hard. Unfortunately, it's not cheap, comes only is "tooth color" shades and requires a quartz lamp to cure it. But it is nice.+ Dr. Jeff Turner ====================== Message: 1 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:42:51 -0800 (PST) From: Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> Subject: Re: Acrylic biteplate Thanks for the pics! It looks like it is basically transparent with a pink tint to it. Have you tried mixing the powder with the liquid to make a paste/putty out of it? If it has a 10 min working time, this might be possible. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:12:07 -0600 From: Dan Torosian <dtorosian@...> Subject: Re: Acrylic biteplate It might be workable that way, but it starts out pretty thin and watery. Also, it might not be something you want to get on your skin before it's cured - it seems pretty nasty. The customer service folks at Schein dental were extremely helpful; they might know about the workability and different properties of the different acrylics, etc. Maybe there's a different one that works more like epoxy (mix to a putty, etc.). I picked this stuff (Ortho-Jet) after explaining what I wanted to my dentist, who does reconstructive and cosmetic work. Yes, it is nearly transparent, and is pretty much invisible on a black bite plate or mouthpiece surface. It shows up pink on the white Brilhart bite plate, though, and on bare metal like this Berg. Dan
FROM: tenorman1952 (Paul Coats)
SUBJECT: Re: Acrylic biteplate
Dr. Turner... is this "light cured composite resin" the stuff my dentist cures with a blue laser? (Really, guys, he puts on tinted goggles to do this.) Paul Coats Jeff & Joan Turner wrote: > I've been following this discussion in regards to using dental acrylic > for repairs and reconstruction of mouthpieces since it started. As a > dentist who has used the stuff for this purpose for over 20 years, I > could have jumped in but you guys were carrying the load pretty well. > I have found the material is easy to work with, works well and lasts. > I repaired big chip in a Brilhart Tonalin mouthpiece that came with a > Boosey and Hawks "Fogware" alto sax that I purchased used -- the first > reed instrument I had (I've been a string player, primarily bass, for > over 40 years). The music shop guy said it was a good mouthpiece and > worth the trouble. I still have it and the original repair has hung > in there. I've used it with a number of other materials and found > that, of course, it works best with acrylic plastics but can be used > with hard rubber as well. Using acrylic with non acrylic materials > requires mechanical retention because there is no true "bond" between > the materials. > > In regards to mixing up to a paste or putty-like consistency, dental > lab technicians, when repairing acrylic appliances, often "freehand" a > batch (that is, mix to a desired consistency rather than following the > suggested monomer/powder ratio) in a baggie, cut a corner off the bag > and squeeze the dough like paste out onto their work -- kind of like a > chef filling cream pastries. The primary problem you run into when > improvising with the powder/liquid ratio is getting too much monomer > (make the mixture really runny). It may cure with voids as the > unreacted monomer vaporizes within the curing acrylic. These can be > filled, but that adds another step to the process. Voids are usually > only a problem when your are heat curing the acrylic, which is the > standard technique in dental labs. The setting material is placed in > a water bath at 120 degrees under 20psi (can be done at home using a > pressure cooker) for 10 to 12 minutes. > > As far as being tough on the skin, well, as with any solvent it would > be prudent to minimize contact of methyl methacrylate monomer with the > skin. However, dental laboratory technicians and dentists have been > using it on a daily basis with little or no problems -- at least that > I know of. OSHA is more concerned with inhalation of the vapor that > skin contact. > > Now, if you REALLY want to try a nice material, try some of the light > cured composite resin (resin filled with microscopic quartz > particles). It has great handling properties, indefinite working time > and is terrifically hard. Unfortunately, it's not cheap, comes only > is "tooth color" shades and requires a quartz lamp to cure it. But it > is nice.+ > > Dr. Jeff Turner > ======================> > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:42:51 -0800 (PST) > From: Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@...> > Subject: Re: Acrylic biteplate > > Thanks for the pics! It looks like it is basically transparent with a > pink > tint to it. > > Have you tried mixing the powder with the liquid to make a paste/putty out > of it? If it has a 10 min working time, this might be possible. > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! > http://my.yahoo.com > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:12:07 -0600 > From: Dan Torosian <dtorosian@...> > Subject: Re: Acrylic biteplate > > It might be workable that way, but it starts out pretty thin and > watery. Also, it might not be something you want to get on your skin > before it's cured - it seems pretty nasty. The customer service folks > at Schein dental were extremely helpful; they might know about the > workability and different properties of the different acrylics, etc. > Maybe there's a different one that works more like epoxy (mix to a > putty, etc.). I picked this stuff (Ortho-Jet) after explaining what I > wanted to my dentist, who does reconstructive and cosmetic work. > > Yes, it is nearly transparent, and is pretty much invisible on a black > bite plate or mouthpiece surface. It shows up pink on the white > Brilhart bite plate, though, and on bare metal like this Berg. > > Dan > > > > > > Got a Mouthpiece Work question? Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com > > Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see > the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work. > > To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG94vauss/M)8184.5584357.6650215.3001176/D=grplch/S05032198:HM/EXP00740945/A$26682/R=0/SIGedksnhv/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso`185402> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > MouthpieceWork-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MouthpieceWork-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe> > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. > >
FROM: dantorosian (Dan Torosian)
SUBJECT: Re: Acrylic biteplate
Jeff & Joan Turner wrote: >Using acrylic with non acrylic materials requires mechanical retention because there is no true "bond" between the materials. > Thanks for the info. Do you think I should try to pry the new biteplate off of the stainless steel and contact-cement it in instead, or just leave it alone if it seems solid? Have you used acrylic to repair chips and other damage around the edges of the mouthpiece? Is it sturdy enough when it gets thin (like at the tip)? I have only used it to fill in tooth gouges or to make a biteplate. Dan
FROM: capnjeffus (Jeff & Joan Turner)
SUBJECT: Re: Acrylic biteplate
Paul, The light cured composite resin is indeed the stuff your dentist cures with a blue laser -- but you don't need a laser to cure it. Actually room light will cure the resin but it takes a long time. Curing time is directly proportional to intensity of the source. The light source most commonly used is a quartz bulb. In the dental office, because the light is so tightly focused, using protective shield is recommended. Of course, they make units specifically for curing resin -- they start about $200 but any intense full spectrum light will work. Different initiators -- the chemical compounds added to facilitate the cure of the resin -- are sensitive to different bands of the spectrum. Most seem to prefer the "high frequency" end hence the "blue laser" Although the material would be very good for the purpose of restoring mouthpieces, I was really just joking about it because the cost would be prohibitive. The material is expensive, the curing light is expensive and the finishing and polishing material is expensive. But if you happened to already have the stuff... Dan, If your repair seems solid, I'd leave it alone. Dentist and labs use a technique known as "microetching" to provide mechanical retention for resins. This amounts to either a mini sand blaster or acid bath. Both provide an extremely fine "patina-like" finish but it is enough for the resin to "grab". My point is, the stuff can get ahold of very little and be fine. Having typed that, more retention is usually better. The contact cement provides an "adhesion", but it is not a true bond. Adhesion and chemical bond are physically different joints. Adhesion generally works best when you have a gloss finished surface like polished stainless steel. None the less, adhesion generally has less strength than chemical bonding. In regards to chips and tip damage, that is where the resin material works best, in my opinion. The orthodontic acrylic that most of you seem to be using is very strong even when thin. However, this is an area where some mechanical retention is a good idea. I suggest preparing some fine grooves or undercuts in the base of the defect for the repair material to "lock" into. The folks at Schein dental can hook you up with some dental laboratory burs that will work in a Dremel or similar tool. A 1/2 round or #33 inverted cone shape are ideal for this. Again the light cured resin is better when thin but then, the start up cost would be prohibitive for most folks. On the other hand, if you have a good friend who is a dentist, maybe... Dr. T ================ MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com wrote: ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 1 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:22:19 -0600 From: Jeff & Joan Turner <capjeff@...> Subject: Re: Acrylic biteplate I've been following this discussion in regards to using dental acrylic for repairs and reconstruction of mouthpieces... ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:18:19 -0600 From: Paul Coats <tenorman@...> Subject: Re: Re: Acrylic biteplate Dr. Turner... is this "light cured composite resin" the stuff my dentist cures with a blue laser? (Really, guys, he puts on tinted goggles to do this.) Paul Coats ========================== Message: 3 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:12:18 -0600 From: Dan Torosian <dtorosian@...> Subject: Re: Re: Acrylic biteplate Jeff & Joan Turner wrote: > Using acrylic with non acrylic materials requires mechanical retention > because there is no true "bond" between the materials. > Thanks for the info. Do you think I should try to pry the new biteplate off of the stainless steel and contact-cement it in instead, or just leave it alone if it seems solid? Have you used acrylic to repair chips and other damage around the edges of the mouthpiece? Is it sturdy enough when it gets thin (like at the tip)? I have only used it to fill in tooth gouges or to make a biteplate. Dan
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: Acrylic biteplate
Thanks for all this excellent information!
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff & Joan Turner
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 9:30 AM
Subject: [MouthpieceWork] RE: Acrylic biteplate
Paul,
The light cured composite resin is indeed the stuff your dentist cures
with a blue laser -- but you don't need a laser to cure it. Actually
room light will cure the resin but it takes a long time. Curing time is
directly proportional to intensity of the source. The light source most
commonly used is a quartz bulb. In the dental office, because the light
is so tightly focused, using protective shield is recommended.
Of course, they make units specifically for curing resin -- they start
about $200 but any intense full spectrum light will work. Different
initiators -- the chemical compounds added to facilitate the cure of the
resin -- are sensitive to different bands of the spectrum. Most seem to
prefer the "high frequency" end hence the "blue laser"
Although the material would be very good for the purpose of restoring
mouthpieces, I was really just joking about it because the cost would be
prohibitive. The material is expensive, the curing light is expensive
and the finishing and polishing material is expensive. But if you
happened to already have the stuff...
Dan,
If your repair seems solid, I'd leave it alone. Dentist and labs use a
technique known as "microetching" to provide mechanical retention for
resins. This amounts to either a mini sand blaster or acid bath. Both
provide an extremely fine "patina-like" finish but it is enough for the
resin to "grab". My point is, the stuff can get ahold of very little
and be fine. Having typed that, more retention is usually better. The
contact cement provides an "adhesion", but it is not a true bond.
Adhesion and chemical bond are physically different joints. Adhesion
generally works best when you have a gloss finished surface like
polished stainless steel. None the less, adhesion generally has less
strength than chemical bonding.
In regards to chips and tip damage, that is where the resin material
works best, in my opinion. The orthodontic acrylic that most of you
seem to be using is very strong even when thin. However, this is an
area where some mechanical retention is a good idea. I suggest
preparing some fine grooves or undercuts in the base of the defect for
the repair material to "lock" into. The folks at Schein dental can hook
you up with some dental laboratory burs that will work in a Dremel or
similar tool. A 1/2 round or #33 inverted cone shape are ideal for
this. Again the light cured resin is better when thin but then, the
start up cost would be prohibitive for most folks. On the other hand,
if you have a good friend who is a dentist, maybe...
Dr. T
================
MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com wrote:
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:22:19 -0600
From: Jeff & Joan Turner <capjeff@...>
Subject: Re: Acrylic biteplate
I've been following this discussion in regards to using dental acrylic
for repairs and reconstruction of mouthpieces...
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2 Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:18:19 -0600
From: Paul Coats <tenorman@...>
Subject: Re: Re: Acrylic biteplate
Dr. Turner... is this "light cured composite resin" the stuff my dentist
cures with a blue laser?
(Really, guys, he puts on tinted goggles to do this.)
Paul Coats
==========================
Message: 3 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:12:18 -0600
From: Dan Torosian <dtorosian@...>
Subject: Re: Re: Acrylic biteplate
Jeff & Joan Turner wrote:
> Using acrylic with non acrylic materials requires mechanical retention
> because there is no true "bond" between the materials.
>
Thanks for the info.
Do you think I should try to pry the new biteplate off of the stainless
steel and contact-cement it in instead, or just leave it alone if it
seems solid?
Have you used acrylic to repair chips and other damage around the edges
of the mouthpiece? Is it sturdy enough when it gets thin (like at the
tip)? I have only used it to fill in tooth gouges or to make a biteplate.
Dan
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FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Acrylic biteplate
Has there been any recent concerns about the long term health risks of using Acrylics and Epoxies in dental applications? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: Acrylic biteplate
Acrylics are OK. Almost all epoxies, including dental ones, seem to contain Bisphenol A, from what I have read. There is controversy over whether they are safe. Industry says that the minute exposures in dental applications do not have any adverse effects and quote studies and research that seems to support that view. Critics say that the studies do not take all factors into account. I'll try to dig up some links if you are interested.
Toby
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Bradbury
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Acrylic biteplate
Has there been any recent concerns about the long term health risks of
using Acrylics and Epoxies in dental applications?
__________________________________
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