Whats the deal with intonation and mouthpiece facings.  I have a 
Berg Largen 105/0, sign Ralph Morgan, I guess it was worked on by 
the man.  Its a hard rubber bullet chamber.  But the intonation is 
way sharp compared to my Berg 100/0 worked on by Theo.
Does anyone have any insight on this?
Thanks
Steve

Generally speaking, a facing should not effect intonation.  Only the
chamber volume should matter, but I think the length of the mouthpiece and
the baffle play a role too.  Long thin mouthpieces have different
intonation tendencies from a short fat mouthpiece of the same chamber
volume.

I think the facing interacts with the player's embouchure to create some
intonation control issues.  This is especially true of very wide tip
openings.  If a player does not quite have the chops for it, they try to
compensate for the wide tip by biting the piece closed some.  Then minor
changes in embouchure makes the pitch go wild.  


		
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Try covering both mpc facings with the palm of your hand to seal the window and blow over the shank end like blowing a bottle. See if the note sounded is the same. If it is different you are looking at different internal volumes, which will affect the intonation. If it is the same then Keith's explanation is probably what is going on.

Toby
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Keith Bradbury 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 1:54 PM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Intonation


  Generally speaking, a facing should not effect intonation.  Only the
  chamber volume should matter, but I think the length of the mouthpiece and
  the baffle play a role too.  Long thin mouthpieces have different
  intonation tendencies from a short fat mouthpiece of the same chamber
  volume.

  I think the facing interacts with the player's embouchure to create some
  intonation control issues.  This is especially true of very wide tip
  openings.  If a player does not quite have the chops for it, they try to
  compensate for the wide tip by biting the piece closed some.  Then minor
  changes in embouchure makes the pitch go wild.  


              
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You can measure internal volumes by covering the facing with packing tape,
filling the piece with water, then dumping the water into a graduated
cylinder (lab ware).  I have not found this particularly useful except to
get a feel for how much they can vary and still work (quite a bit). 
Variable shank length is a big factor.  But even if you subtract the amount
of volume that is lost due to the portion of the piece that is on the neck
cork, the volume varies by more than a few percent on pieces that are in
tune for my playing.  

I have found that smaller volume sop sax MPs play better for me on my
vintage straight Conn.  The Runyons are some of the smallest out there. 
Slightly larger, the squeeze chamber ones are good for me too (Bari,
Ponzol, Barone, Super Session).


		
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That's been my experience too. I have a vintage Conn straight sop and the best mpcs for me have been a ancient Berg Larsen hard rubber and a Runyon Quantum. 

Toby
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Keith Bradbury 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 10:44 PM
  Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Intonation


  You can measure internal volumes by covering the facing with packing tape,
  filling the piece with water, then dumping the water into a graduated
  cylinder (lab ware).  I have not found this particularly useful except to
  get a feel for how much they can vary and still work (quite a bit). 
  Variable shank length is a big factor.  But even if you subtract the amount
  of volume that is lost due to the portion of the piece that is on the neck
  cork, the volume varies by more than a few percent on pieces that are in
  tune for my playing.  

  I have found that smaller volume sop sax MPs play better for me on my
  vintage straight Conn.  The Runyons are some of the smallest out there. 
  Slightly larger, the squeeze chamber ones are good for me too (Bari,
  Ponzol, Barone, Super Session).


              
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Ditto on the bigger opening causing you to squeeze more...another 
check is to set them both up and play the mouthpiece only into a 
tuner; see what note you 'naturally' hit. Try a softer reed on the 
bigger tip and see if that note changes.

jeff

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, scoste@o... wrote:
> Whats the deal with intonation and mouthpiece facings.  I have a 
> Berg Largen 105/0, sign Ralph Morgan, I guess it was worked on by 
> the man.  Its a hard rubber bullet chamber.  But the intonation is 
> way sharp compared to my Berg 100/0 worked on by Theo.
> Does anyone have any insight on this?
> Thanks
> Steve

Just for reference in the thread, these are the notes that Santy 
Runyon suggested you work to for 'mouthpiece only' exercises:
Alto sax:  A concert --- A above the staff 
Tenor Sax:  G concert --- G above the staff  
Baritone sax:  Eb concert --- Eb fourth space 
Bb Clarinet:  B concert  --- B above the staff 
Bb Soprano Sax:  Db concert --- Db above the staff 
Alto Clarinet:  Bb concert --- Bb above the staff 
Bass Clarinet:  C concert --- C above the staff 

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "sjrosner" <sjrosner@y...> 
wrote:
> Ditto on the bigger opening causing you to squeeze more...another 
> check is to set them both up and play the mouthpiece only into a 
> tuner; see what note you 'naturally' hit. Try a softer reed on the 
> bigger tip and see if that note changes.
> 
> jeff
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, scoste@o... wrote:
> > Whats the deal with intonation and mouthpiece facings.  I have a 
> > Berg Largen 105/0, sign Ralph Morgan, I guess it was worked on by 
> > the man.  Its a hard rubber bullet chamber.  But the intonation 
is 
> > way sharp compared to my Berg 100/0 worked on by Theo.
> > Does anyone have any insight on this?
> > Thanks
> > Steve

Where did you quote the alto and bass clarinet pitches from?  I have never
seen them mentioned.


		
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A lot of great information here...I use this as a guide to my 
students and tell the to 'thank santy...'

http://www.gigdust.com/articles_mouthpiece.html

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury 
<kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> Where did you quote the alto and bass clarinet pitches from?  I 
have never
> seen them mentioned.
> 
> 
> 		
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What makes a mouthpiece have squirly intonation.  Ive one that Is 
generally in range but when I go for the right hand octave D or E it 
goes quite sharp.  I have other moutpieces that this does not occur 
with so I cant blame the horn.  Is it in the facing or chamber...what 
might be able to be done?  Ive addressed biting and its not that either.

Sigmund, generally, when a mouthpiece goes quite sharp
in the palm keys, and they open a normal amount, it is
due to the chamber size being improper for the bore
and neck of that sax.

The low register and upper register have quite a
different node/antinode patter going on.  

The low register tunes by mouthpiece volume.  The
volume in the chamber (which is really everything past
the end of the neck cork), to be in tune with a
properly designed sax, should be equal to the missing
conical section of the neck.  It is easy to see that
if the chamber is "small", the mouthpiece will have to
be pulled out to achieve the correct volume.  If the
chamber is "large" the mouthpiece will have to be
pushed in more to achieve the correct volume.

So, with a large chamber mouthpiece, the mouthpiece is
pushed in quite far.  This is why old mouthpieces from
the 20's and 30's are often "short shank".  They have
that huge, round cavernous chamber, and have to be
pushed on quite far on the neck cork.  Some would even
hit the neck octave pip if not for the short shank.

BUT!!!  The upper register tunes by LENGTH of the
mouthpiece past the end of the neck.  The large
chamber mouthpiece is too short for some saxes, and
the upper register, the palm keys, are sharp.

You can also run into the opposite problem.  A very
small chamber "peashooter" chamber.  These mouthpieces
usually have a very long shank in order to have
stability on the neck cork.  And many times, they will
be flat in the palm keys even if the rest of the range
plays in tune fairly well.  The player will try to
"bite" the pitch up into tune, and the high notes will
choke off.

So, in your case, your mouthpiece chamber is too large
for your instrument.

Paul



sigmund451 wrote:

>
> What makes a mouthpiece have squirly intonation.  Ive one that Is
> generally in range but when I go for the right hand octave D or E it
> goes quite sharp.  I have other moutpieces that this does not occur
> with so I cant blame the horn.  Is it in the facing or chamber...what
> might be able to be done?  Ive addressed biting and its not that either.
>
>
>
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see 
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
>
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>

I think Sig is saying his D2 & E2 are sharp compared to D1 & E1.


		
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Correct.  The Palm Keys are not the issue here.  Its the right hand 
lower stack octave E and D.  Especially E.  In their non octave status 
they are dead on.


--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@y...> 
wrote:
> I think Sig is saying his D2 & E2 are sharp compared to D1 & E1.
> 
> 
> 		
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One of my Keilwerth tenors (the Modell Ponzol) has this tendency as
well, and I have never been able to figure it out...it's only about 10
cents difference, so I have learned to easily play around it, but as a
'techie', I've always been curious...jeff

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "sigmund451" <sigmund451@h...>
wrote:
> 
> Correct.  The Palm Keys are not the issue here.  Its the right hand 
> lower stack octave E and D.  Especially E.  In their non octave status 
> they are dead on.
> 
> 
> --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury <kwbradbury@y...> 
> wrote:
> > I think Sig is saying his D2 & E2 are sharp compared to D1 & E1.
> > 
> > 
> > 		
> > __________________________________ 
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> > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. 
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Strange, I've had this problem with a Super 20 alto ("octave E and D. 
Especially E.").  But one symptom seems to be the exact opposite, the
mouthpieces I've tried don't seem to affect it one way or another.  When
I brought it to a tech, he basically told me to just "live with it." 
And the more I talk about this the further it gets from Sigmunds problem
so I'll stop now.

--Joe C.

"sjrosner" <sjrosner@...> wrote:

>One of my Keilwerth tenors (the Modell Ponzol) has this tendency as
>well, and I have never been able to figure it out...it's only about 10
>cents difference, so I have learned to easily play around it, but as a
>'techie', I've always been curious...jeff
>
>--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "sigmund451" <sigmund451@h...>
>wrote:
>> 
>>Correct.  The Palm Keys are not the issue here.  Its the right hand
>>lower stack octave E and D.  Especially E.  In their non octave status
>>they are dead on.

Most saxes tend to be sharp on D2 when you get the rest of the sax mostly
centered up.  It has to do with compromises in bore taper and using two
octave key pip locations for the entire 2nd octave as opposed to an optimal
one for each note (which would be a mechanical nightmare).  So the ends of
each pip range have the most problems.  D2, A2/G2, C#3 (especially on
sops).  C#2 is often a little flat making the break across to D2 an even
larger step than desired.  Some saxes are better than others.

We all use some muscle memory to favore these out-of-tune notes.  When you
switch mouthpieces/reeds, the differences can make you muscle memory
somewhat obsolete.  This is most noticable with tip opening changes.  Now a
little embouchure adjustment might make a larger/smaller difference than
what you were expecting.

It may be possible to make this better/worse with mouthpiece chamber volume
changes.  But I can not predict which way to go.



		
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