I finally got my act together and actually worked on an old Yamaha 4CM tenor 
piece that I have. I opened it from about 67 to around 77 at the tip using a 
curve generated by Keith's spreadsheet.

I was aiming at 80 but realized I couldn't go that far without ending up 
with an overly wide tip rail. Please forgive the "newbie" questions, some of 
which may have been answered before.
* How much work can you typically do to a piece by just working on the side 
rails before the tip rail, baffle, and over all length must be adjusted?
  * I realize there is a theoretical limit to how much a mouthpiece can be 
modified but is there a practical limit that serves as a rule? Is it a 
mistake to open or close a piece by more than .020 or .030 or what?
  * Once you've opened a piece and widened the tip rail in doing so; to 
narrow it back down again is it wiser to shorten the mouthpiece from the tip 
or file the inside or some of both?

Keith - if you're out there - I noticed when I use the spreadsheet and 
changed the tip opening in row 10 the tip value in row 19 changes 
drastically from the .8 shown for the .100 - .115 you have set which causes 
err to increase significantly.  I'm also wondering what exactly are "R" and 
"M".  I take it that the error being calculated is the difference bertween 
the theoretical and actual arcs???

Generally I'm of the mind set that thoses that don't know how to use tools 
correctly shouldn't use them. I think this spreadsheet is very simple yet 
powerful tool if used correctly. I'd just like to understand it better.

Thanks,

Keith L.

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> * How much work can you typically do to a piece by just working on 
the side 
> rails before the tip rail, baffle, and over all length must be 
adjusted?

Very little.  As you have found out the tip rail and others feature 
begin to look out of proportion to what your are used to seeing.  You 
mostly need to watch out when working on curved sidewall pieces like 
vintage Links.  If you open the tip a lot by cutting the rails, the 
window will break into the sidewalls and will become too wide for a 
tenor reed.

Reworking a tip rail is part of most jobs.  I should be thinned from 
the outside and inside as needed.  If the tip is getting sharp and/or 
the tip does not match the curve of the reeds you use, file the 
outside.  If its OK, then file the inside and shape the baffle.

When closing a piece, the table gets wide.  You then need to file and 
blend the sides to match the width of a reed.

When opening a tip a lot, the side rails get too wide espcially near 
the tip.  Dont just fiile both outsides equally.  Use your eye to 
decide if the the rails are symmetric.  Sometimes you need to file 
the inside of one rail and the outside of another.

Tips can also be opened by angling the table.  This is a lot more 
work than tip cutting but is a good technique if there is not enough 
sidewall material or you do not want to reconstruct the baffle.

I'll have to look at the spread sheet I posted to answer the rest of 
your questions.  There are a few posts in the archives that are about 
the spreadsheets.  The Search feature does not find them very well.  
I need to visually scan for them too.

The description under one of the files say where to find more info 
(post 1453).  Have you seen it?  If you still have questions, ask 
again.

Facing Curve.xls 
Simple arc facing curve spreadsheet (See post 1453) 

Keith (and any others):
I've been lurking here since almost the beginning, because I really don't
have a lot to contribute to the discussion, and defer to the expertise of
others. I've been trying to learn refacing/modification for years now, have
a full set of the requisite tools, and have taken lessons from Paul Coats,
Santy Runyon, Ron Cohelo, and several others. My results have steadily
improved with practice (some have actually impressed me!) but there is
something that seems to elude me: I can't seem to get good results
increasing a tip opening. I searched the "how to" file on the site, and
couldn't find a set of blow by blow instructions. Now I freely admit I'm a
knucklehead, but any simple step by step hints from some of you experts
would be most appreciated!!

Thanks!

Steve Goodson

Dummy, I'll just have to come over and show you. 

Hah!!!

Paul

STEVE GOODSON wrote:

> Keith (and any others):
> I've been lurking here since almost the beginning, because I really don't
> have a lot to contribute to the discussion, and defer to the expertise of
> others. I've been trying to learn refacing/modification for years now, 
> have
> a full set of the requisite tools, and have taken lessons from Paul Coats,
> Santy Runyon, Ron Cohelo, and several others. My results have steadily
> improved with practice (some have actually impressed me!) but there is
> something that seems to elude me: I can't seem to get good results
> increasing a tip opening. I searched the "how to" file on the site, and
> couldn't find a set of blow by blow instructions. Now I freely admit I'm a
> knucklehead, but any simple step by step hints from some of you experts
> would be most appreciated!!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Steve Goodson
>
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see 
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
>
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Hey, why not set up a camera and tape us working on a few pieces?

Paul

STEVE GOODSON wrote:

> Keith (and any others):
> I've been lurking here since almost the beginning, because I really don't
> have a lot to contribute to the discussion, and defer to the expertise of
> others. I've been trying to learn refacing/modification for years now, 
> have
> a full set of the requisite tools, and have taken lessons from Paul Coats,
> Santy Runyon, Ron Cohelo, and several others. My results have steadily
> improved with practice (some have actually impressed me!) but there is
> something that seems to elude me: I can't seem to get good results
> increasing a tip opening. I searched the "how to" file on the site, and
> couldn't find a set of blow by blow instructions. Now I freely admit I'm a
> knucklehead, but any simple step by step hints from some of you experts
> would be most appreciated!!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Steve Goodson
>
>
>
> Got a Mouthpiece Work question?  Send it to MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
>
> Visit the site at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork to see 
> the Files, Photos and Bookmarks relating to Mouthpiece Work.
>
> To see and modify your groups, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG9qs1ut6/M'3541.4247512.5496808.2248467/D=grplch/S05032198:HM/EXP88347280/A 61551/R=0/SIGsr5b9n1/*http://launch.yahoo.com/artist/videos.asp?artistID01301> 
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>     * To visit your group on the web, go to:
>       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MouthpieceWork/
>        
>     * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>       MouthpieceWork-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>       <mailto:MouthpieceWork-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>        
>     * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>

Creating a list of steps that applies to all tip opening jobs is not a
trivial task.  There are many variations.  But here is what I generally do
(off the top of my head):

1. Measure the current facing curve, tip opening and note the flatness of
the table (flat, concave, convex).

2. Plot the curve to see visually what you are up against and to check
whether your readings make sense.

3. Plan what you want to do to the piece.  Determine a tip opening, facing
length and facing curve.

4. Flatten the table as needed.  Angle it as you work on it if this helps
you towards your goal.  

5. Remeasure the piece since the readings might be much different.

6. Determine where the biggest corrections are needed and work on those
spots.  Get close to your goals without going for final numbers.  Think of
this as roughing in the facing.  Avoid going for the .0015" feeler target
too soon as you will most likely mess it up in later steps.  Leave it short
until you are almost done.

7. Now your rails and table are all probably wider than they should be. 
Decide which side of the each rail should be thinned and go at it.  The
outside perimeter of the reed contact area should match the shape of a
reed.  They can be a little wider, but should not be narrower.

8. Do chamber and baffle work if desired.  Some can be done earlier in the
steps, but they all should be done before going for the final facing in
case you slip and nick a rail.

9. I remeasure and plot the results several times during the rework. 
Sometimes I adjust my targets if I can still get a good curve with less
work.

10. Go for the final facing curve.  Start play testing.  You'll start to
develop a feeeling for how some minor changes make a big difference while
others are not worth messing with.

11. The tip rail keeps changing as you go for the final targets.  The side
rails do to a lesser extent.  You will need to file, scrape and sand them
to maintain good shapes as you get to the final targets.

12. Do cosmetic work.  Sand out all file marks.  I usually stop after using
"0000" steel wool.  You can buff and polish if you wish.

13. Its a good idea to mark the tip opening on the piece.  Everyone wants
to know the tip opening.

14. Finally, draw the facing over 1500 paper and/or the back of some
sandpaper to polish the facing.  Then wash the piece.

Many of these steps can be expanded in more detail.  I like to work on the
facing as a whole but some like to go for one feeler number at a time. 
Determining target facing curves is quite a subject in itself.  Baffle and
chamber work is too.


		
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When you refer to table flatness, I presume that you are talking 
about the direction from shank to tip, not the side to side flatness, 
which is much harder to gage (at least if it is concave!)

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury 
<kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> Creating a list of steps that applies to all tip opening jobs is 
not a
> trivial task.  There are many variations.  But here is what I 
generally do
> (off the top of my head):
> 
> 1. Measure the current facing curve, tip opening and note the 
flatness of
> the table (flat, concave, convex).
> 
> 2. Plot the curve to see visually what you are up against and to 
check
> whether your readings make sense.
> 
> 3. Plan what you want to do to the piece.  Determine a tip opening, 
facing
> length and facing curve.
> 
> 4. Flatten the table as needed.  Angle it as you work on it if this 
helps
> you towards your goal.  
> 
> 5. Remeasure the piece since the readings might be much different.
> 
> 6. Determine where the biggest corrections are needed and work on 
those
> spots.  Get close to your goals without going for final numbers.  
Think of
> this as roughing in the facing.  Avoid going for the .0015" feeler 
target
> too soon as you will most likely mess it up in later steps.  Leave 
it short
> until you are almost done.
> 
> 7. Now your rails and table are all probably wider than they should 
be. 
> Decide which side of the each rail should be thinned and go at it.  
The
> outside perimeter of the reed contact area should match the shape 
of a
> reed.  They can be a little wider, but should not be narrower.
> 
> 8. Do chamber and baffle work if desired.  Some can be done earlier 
in the
> steps, but they all should be done before going for the final 
facing in
> case you slip and nick a rail.
> 
> 9. I remeasure and plot the results several times during the 
rework. 
> Sometimes I adjust my targets if I can still get a good curve with 
less
> work.
> 
> 10. Go for the final facing curve.  Start play testing.  You'll 
start to
> develop a feeeling for how some minor changes make a big difference 
while
> others are not worth messing with.
> 
> 11. The tip rail keeps changing as you go for the final targets.  
The side
> rails do to a lesser extent.  You will need to file, scrape and 
sand them
> to maintain good shapes as you get to the final targets.
> 
> 12. Do cosmetic work.  Sand out all file marks.  I usually stop 
after using
> "0000" steel wool.  You can buff and polish if you wish.
> 
> 13. Its a good idea to mark the tip opening on the piece.  Everyone 
wants
> to know the tip opening.
> 
> 14. Finally, draw the facing over 1500 paper and/or the back of some
> sandpaper to polish the facing.  Then wash the piece.
> 
> Many of these steps can be expanded in more detail.  I like to work 
on the
> facing as a whole but some like to go for one feeler number at a 
time. 
> Determining target facing curves is quite a subject in itself.  
Baffle and
> chamber work is too.
> 
> 
> 		
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Yes.  I hardly ever check side to side.  It usually falls into place when
lengthwise is fixed.

Flattening a table can be quite maddening.  Minor changes in how you grip a
piece can make it worse instead of better as you draw a piece across some
sandpaper.  


		
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No kidding!! I have been experimenting with holding the piece steady 
and drawing the paper under it...I get a better result, but it takes 
a steady hand or you tear the paper...

--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury 
<kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> Yes.  I hardly ever check side to side.  It usually falls into 
place when
> lengthwise is fixed.
> 
> Flattening a table can be quite maddening.  Minor changes in how 
you grip a
> piece can make it worse instead of better as you draw a piece 
across some
> sandpaper.  
> 
> 
> 		
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