Mouthpiece Work / Whistling sound
FROM: eborys (eborys)
SUBJECT: Whistling sound
Is there a charistic of a mouthpiece design (Selmer CP100) that would 
cause a sort of whistling sound at the beginning of each note, being 
more pronounced with more forceful articulation?  This occurs with a 
wide range of reeds.

Thanks,
Emil
FROM: eborys (eborys)
SUBJECT: Re: Whistling sound
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "eborys" <eborys@m...> wrote:

Oops ... characteristic
FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Whistling sound
Have you tried the suction or seal test?  I'm not a big fan of this test
but it may expose a leak in the mouthpiece/reed seal that could be causing
the sound.

Could you describe the sound as a "chirp"?  Chirps can be a problem for
some players with certain types of embouchures that tend to play more on
the tip of a mouthpiece with a lot of air pressure to force the notes
through.  If a mouthpiece has a high roll-over baffle and/or thin rails, it
could aggrevate this problem.  If the facing is uneven, especially at the
tip, it could chirp more.

But many players can play on a mouthpiece with these features and never
chirp.  Some get relief from just changing the reed, but you have explored
that.

  


	
		
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FROM: eborys (eborys)
SUBJECT: Re: Whistling sound
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury 
<kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> Have you tried the suction or seal test?  I'm not a big fan of this 
Snip

When I think of 'chirp' I think of a sound that sounds briefly below 
the intended tone then moving up to the proper tone.

What I am experiencing is a very brief, very high frequency burst, at 
the attack.  I often play with a double-lip embouchure and using it 
with this mouthpiece produces the same results as single.  I wouldn't 
call my embouchure extreme in any characteristic.

Yes, the rails are what I would call thin, however, so are the rails 
on my Fobes Zinner and the Fobes does not exhibit the problem in the 
slightest.

Ahhhh, so why am I messing around with the CP100?  Well, it is 
brighter and louder and fits better when playing jazz in a 4 piece 
combo, while the Fobes is perfect for a clarinet and piano duo during 
a formal wedding service.

I like the sound of the CP100 (other than the attack) and the 
resistance is just where I like it... why can't I have everything???

Thanks for your help.
Emil
FROM: mikeruhl (Mike Ruhl)
SUBJECT: Re: Whistling sound
> What I am experiencing is a very brief, very high frequency burst, 
> at the attack.

That's what everyone else calls a chirp.
FROM: bluesnote2000 (dan lunsford)
SUBJECT: Re: Whistling sound
--- Mike Ruhl <meruhl@...> wrote:
> > What I am experiencing is a very brief, very high
> frequency burst, 
> > at the attack.
> 
> That's what everyone else calls a chirp.
> 
> 
Hi:

What kind of mouthpiece and reed are you using again?

Bk


	
		
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FROM: realbootman (Bootman)
SUBJECT: Re: Whistling sound
Sounds like a Dukoff with uneven rails!

God Bless
Bootman
Richard Booth
www.bootmanmusic.com


-----Original Message-----
From: dan lunsford [mailto:bluesnote2000@...] 
Sent: Friday, 11 June 2004 9:40 PM
To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Whistling sound


--- Mike Ruhl <meruhl@...> wrote:
> > What I am experiencing is a very brief, very high
> frequency burst, 
> > at the attack.
> 
> That's what everyone else calls a chirp.
> 
> 
Hi:

What kind of mouthpiece and reed are you using again?

Bk


	
		
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FROM: eborys (eborys)
SUBJECT: Re: Whistling sound
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, dan lunsford 
<bluesnote2000@y...> wrote:
> Hi:
> 
> What kind of mouthpiece and reed are you using again?
> 
> Bk

To reiterate and embellish:
"Is there a charistic of a mouthpiece design (Selmer CP100) that would
cause a sort of whistling sound at the beginning of each note, being
more pronounced with more forceful articulation? This occurs with a
wide range of reeds."

"What I am experiencing is a very brief, very high frequency burst, at
the attack. I often play with a double-lip embouchure and using it
with this mouthpiece produces the same results as single. I wouldn't
call my embouchure extreme in any characteristic.

Yes, the rails are what I would call thin, however, so are the rails
on my Fobes Zinner and the Fobes does not exhibit the problem in the
slightest.

Ahhhh, so why am I messing around with the CP100? Well, it is
much brighter and louder and fits better when playing jazz in a 4 
piece
combo, while the Fobes is perfect for a clarinet and piano duo during
a formal wedding service and other classical music settings."


The reeds I have tried, in various hardness degrees:
Vandoren 56 Rue Lepic (This is what I use with my Fobes Zinner)
Vandoren V12
Rico Grand Concert
Gonzales FOF
Zonda

I balance and adjust my reeds using the Tom Ridenour ATG method.  I'm 
59 years old, have been playing since age 12, studied through the 
early and mid-60s with Jerome Stowell.  My main clarinet is a Buffet 
Prestige that has been recently overhauled and regulated buy Guy 
Chadish.  The mouthpiece table is flat and the rails are uniform in 
both thickness and taper profile. 

Thanks,
Emil
sk
FROM: eborys (eborys)
SUBJECT: Re: Whistling sound
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury 
<kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
> Have you tried the suction or seal test?  I'm not a big fan of this 
test

snip

> But many players can play on a mouthpiece with these features and 
never
> chirp.  Some get relief from just changing the reed, but you have 
explored
> that.
>

Thanks for the suggestions.  I can verify that the mouthpiece has 
been machined true and square.  Whether the dimensions/curve is 
proper is a matter of which I am totally ignorant.

Thanks,
Emil
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: Whistling sound
I don't know how you know that the rails are even, but to me this sounds like a classic case of uneven rails, or an unbalanced reed or both. Another possibility is a very high baffle just behind the tip rail, which I have found can cause chirps.

Toby
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: eborys 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 10:14 PM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Whistling sound


  --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, Keith Bradbury 
  <kwbradbury@y...> wrote:
  > Have you tried the suction or seal test?  I'm not a big fan of this 
  test

  snip

  > But many players can play on a mouthpiece with these features and 
  never
  > chirp.  Some get relief from just changing the reed, but you have 
  explored
  > that.
  >

  Thanks for the suggestions.  I can verify that the mouthpiece has 
  been machined true and square.  Whether the dimensions/curve is 
  proper is a matter of which I am totally ignorant.

  Thanks,
  Emil



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FROM: eborys (eborys)
SUBJECT: Re: Whistling sound
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto123@y...> wrote:
> I don't know how you know that the rails are even, but to me this 
sounds like a classic case of uneven rails, or an unbalanced reed or 
both. Another possibility is a very high baffle just behind the tip 
rail, which I have found can cause chirps.
> 
> Toby
Well, you got me on that one.  I guess I should have said that I have 
to take the word of my inspection/QC department and assume that they 
know how use the 2.5+ million dollars of equipment they have.  

I have looked at the baffle just aft of the tip rail, and yes, on the 
Selmer it is higher than the Fobes.

Thanks,
Emil
FROM: eborys (eborys)
SUBJECT: Re: Whistling sound
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto123@y...> wrote:
> I don't know how you know that the rails are even, but to me this 
sounds like a classic case of uneven rails, or an unbalanced reed or 
both. Another possibility is a very high baffle just behind the tip 
rail, which I have found can cause chirps.
> 
> Toby
Well, you got me on that one.  I guess I should have said that I have 
to take the word of my inspection/QC department and assume that they 
know how use the 2.5+ million dollars of equipment they have.  

I have looked at the baffle just aft of the tip rail, and yes, on the 
Selmer it is higher than the Fobes.

Thanks,
Emil
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: Whistling sound
Send the mpc to Keith and I'll bet that when it comes back it won't chirp any more ;-)

Toby
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: eborys 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 10:49 PM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Whistling sound


  --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto123@y...> wrote:
  > I don't know how you know that the rails are even, but to me this 
  sounds like a classic case of uneven rails, or an unbalanced reed or 
  both. Another possibility is a very high baffle just behind the tip 
  rail, which I have found can cause chirps.
  > 
  > Toby
  Well, you got me on that one.  I guess I should have said that I have 
  to take the word of my inspection/QC department and assume that they 
  know how use the 2.5+ million dollars of equipment they have.  

  I have looked at the baffle just aft of the tip rail, and yes, on the 
  Selmer it is higher than the Fobes.

  Thanks,
  Emil



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FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: Whistling sound
Hi Emil,

Sorry for being flip, but why makes you assume that your inspection/QC department is qualified to sign off on your mouthpiece? Are they qualified on mpcs? Nor do you need millions of dollars of equipment, you only need the right equipment. I'm not impressed by your response, especially since you don't seem to know what they did and so need to assume that they knew what they were doing. What are their tolerances, and do they know what to check for?

OK, since you have tried a range of reeds we can pretty much assume that we are looking at a mpc issue, especially if the reeds work decently on your other mpc. The chirps you are getting are caused by a lateral oscillation of the reed across its center line. In other words the reed tip is not opening and closing as a unit, but is tending to touch one side and the other of the tip rail alternately as it vibrates. This is caused by some kind of bilateral asymmetry. It could be your embouchure, it could be the reed or it could be the mpc. In addition there are conditions that can exacerbate the problem. Again, since you don't have problems with your other mpc and I assume that you have tried a statistically significant number of reeds to reduce the probability of some sort of consistent reed imbalance, it looks like it is the mpc. Note too that a double lip embouchure--by not limiting the vibration of the reed as much, might well tend to produce more chirps, especially those caused by uneven rails.

You might have a small rail imbalance--a flat spot somewhere along the lay for instance, that tends to give a sideways kick during the reed oscillation cycle. It could be anywhere from the break to the tip. One side might be consistently slightly higher or have a slightly different curve. You might have a problem with table flatness. Any or all of those things might be at work.

In my experience a high baffle exacerbates the effects of any imbalance, especially if there is a rollover baffle. Taking off some material immediately behind the tip rail (from the edge of the tip rail back about 1-2 mm) will solve the problem, or at least lessen it considerably. There will be a very slight loss of edge, but you will get a more powerful, fuller sound with better response. There is no need to lower the baffle further back, as this will darken the sound and you seem to like the projection you get with this mpc.

I have got a couple of very high baffle pieces that used to be very marginal and edgy, and which I managed to improve to the point that they no longer want to chirp under almost any circumstances by paying careful attention to those points.

You might also ask Keith for the facing curve specs, as there is a small chance that if it is way off it might be contributing to the problem.

Toby




  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: eborys 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 10:49 PM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Whistling sound


  --- In MouthpieceWork@...m, "Toby" <kymarto123@y...> wrote:
  > I don't know how you know that the rails are even, but to me this 
  sounds like a classic case of uneven rails, or an unbalanced reed or 
  both. Another possibility is a very high baffle just behind the tip 
  rail, which I have found can cause chirps.
  > 
  > Toby
  Well, you got me on that one.  I guess I should have said that I have 
  to take the word of my inspection/QC department and assume that they 
  know how use the 2.5+ million dollars of equipment they have.  

  I have looked at the baffle just aft of the tip rail, and yes, on the 
  Selmer it is higher than the Fobes.

  Thanks,
  Emil



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FROM: eborys (eborys)
SUBJECT: Re: Whistling sound
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto123@y...> wrote:
> Hi Emil,
> 
> Sorry for being flip, but why makes you assume that your 
inspection/QC department is qualified to sign off on your mouthpiece? 
snip

> You might also ask Keith for the facing curve specs, as there is a 
small chance that if it is way off it might be contributing to the 
problem.
> 
> Toby


While not knowing the ramifications of the dimensions I can identify 
surfaces/planes and their relationship to each other as far as being 
symmetrical – parallel – etc.  Even though I don't know what the 
curve should be, it is very easy for the computer to measure any 
point, or any plane generated by three points in relation to their 
positional qualities.  I can tell you that the table is flat, the 
side rails are symmetrical and the tip rail is parallel to the 
table.  To make those measurements no one needs to have ever seen a 
mouthpiece before or know its intended use.  

Thanks very much for taking the time to expand your thoughts.  I 
think that you are right about the baffle.  It is higher than my 
other mouthpieces.  I really didn't want to do any corrective 
procedures myself.  I can barely squeeze out an hour or so a night 
for practice time as it is.  Clarinetists can make a life of just 
adjusting reeds – if I were to start grinding on a mouthpiece I might 
never play again.

If no one has heard anything terminally bad about this model I would 
like to have someone that knows what they are doing try and correct 
the problem.

Thanks again,
Emil
FROM: kymarto (Toby)
SUBJECT: Re: Whistling sound
OK, I'm convinced that things are probably square. My suggestion is to send it to Keith Bradbury or Paul Coats for a look. Those guys know all the details and can check out the facing length, curve, etc. They also have a good feel for the internal dimensions, baffle geometry, etc, and I trust that they could spot a problem if it exists.

Toby
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: eborys 
  To: MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 1:09 AM
  Subject: [MouthpieceWork] Re: Whistling sound


  --- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "Toby" <kymarto123@y...> wrote:
  > Hi Emil,
  > 
  > Sorry for being flip, but why makes you assume that your 
  inspection/QC department is qualified to sign off on your mouthpiece? 
  snip

  > You might also ask Keith for the facing curve specs, as there is a 
  small chance that if it is way off it might be contributing to the 
  problem.
  > 
  > Toby


  While not knowing the ramifications of the dimensions I can identify 
  surfaces/planes and their relationship to each other as far as being 
  symmetrical - parallel - etc.  Even though I don't know what the 
  curve should be, it is very easy for the computer to measure any 
  point, or any plane generated by three points in relation to their 
  positional qualities.  I can tell you that the table is flat, the 
  side rails are symmetrical and the tip rail is parallel to the 
  table.  To make those measurements no one needs to have ever seen a 
  mouthpiece before or know its intended use.  

  Thanks very much for taking the time to expand your thoughts.  I 
  think that you are right about the baffle.  It is higher than my 
  other mouthpieces.  I really didn't want to do any corrective 
  procedures myself.  I can barely squeeze out an hour or so a night 
  for practice time as it is.  Clarinetists can make a life of just 
  adjusting reeds - if I were to start grinding on a mouthpiece I might 
  never play again.

  If no one has heard anything terminally bad about this model I would 
  like to have someone that knows what they are doing try and correct 
  the problem.

  Thanks again,
  Emil




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FROM: kwbradbury (Keith Bradbury)
SUBJECT: Re: Whistling sound
--- In MouthpieceWork@yahoogroups.com, "eborys" <eborys@m...> wrote:
> 
> If no one has heard anything terminally bad about this model I 
would 
> like to have someone that knows what they are doing try and correct 
> the problem.
> 

I think that is the bottom line.  There is nothing terminally bad 
that those here know of.  I could most likely adjust it to minimize 
or eliminate the problem.  Send me an Email off the Group and we can 
discuss it.  It will take a while as I have about a 4 week backlog of 
mouthpiece work.  I only do this part time so it does not take much 
to get me swamped.